Arcane Full caster tank/front-liner?

[Entelechy]

Hey everyone! I'm joining a D&D game, and I've been asked to play a frontline character.

I'm the only person in the group who has played 5e before (including GM), and when I signed on all the other players already had concepts.

We are starting at level one, and the GM has asked me to make a character that can balance a party of a Rogue (going arcane trickster), Bard (going Lore), and Warlock (going Book).

I thought probably the best actual balance would be a paladin (going Oath of Ancients, polearm/sentinel), but I really, really love playing arcane casters, and I am trying to figure out a way to finagle playing one, while still meeting the GM's degree that my character needs to be the party's entire frontline.

I've considered starting with a level of cleric, then going full wizard (illusionist), but I am not sure I can actually make that work as primary tank for the party.

Any ideas or suggestions?

Thanks!

[Belac93]

I would say full paladin or bard (for a more casty approach). It looks as if your party could use some healing. Or, as a different one, Paladin/sorcerer or warlock. Good synergies.

[Entelechy]

I think one bard in a part is probably enough :P
(though I know technically you can never have too many!)

I was thinking of maybe dipping three levels into warlock at some point, or only sticking with Paladin long enough to get Aura of Warding before going Bladelock or Sorcerer, but I wonder if 13 levels of Bladelock or Sorcerer would actually be worth anything lategame?

Another option might be the old Fighter 2 into Bladelock, but two near-full warlocks might be too Warlock.

[SharkForce]

yeah, paladin pretty much gets most of what you need for tanking by the time you hit level 7. the rest can be sorcerer or warlock levels. more isn't a bad thing, but it certainly isn't necessary either.

[Temperjoke]

Have you considered a tempest or war cleric? You get heavy armor and martial weapons, a shield, spells to cast for healing and damage, so you should be able to fill the gap nicely.

[NNescio]

Hey everyone! I'm joining a D&D game, and I've been asked to play a frontline character.

I'm the only person in the group who has played 5e before (including GM), and when I signed on all the other players already had concepts.

We are starting at level one, and the GM has asked me to make a character that can balance a party of a Rogue (going arcane trickster), Bard (going Lore), and Warlock (going Book).

I thought probably the best actual balance would be a paladin (going Oath of Ancients, polearm/sentinel), but I really, really love playing arcane casters, and I am trying to figure out a way to finagle playing one, while still meeting the GM's degree that my character needs to be the party's entire frontline.

I've considered starting with a level of cleric, then going full wizard (illusionist), but I am not sure I can actually make that work as primary tank for the party.

Any ideas or suggestions?

Thanks!

Mountain Dwarf Warlock (Fiend Patron) 2/Wizard (Abjurer) X

Recharge your Arcane Ward with at-will Mage Armor.

Warlock might be unnecessary if you don't mind recharging the ward with Alarm spells cast as rituals, or if you have access to the Staff of Defense from Lost Mines of Phandelver. You'll miss Armor of Agathys though.

[tcrudisi]

Sorcerer (Favored Soul) -> http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/modifying-classes

Can easily be a frontline fighter and is a full arcane caster.

[The_Pyromancer]

A Cleric 1 (War or Tempest)/Abjuration Wizard X. You get a few healing spells, full spellcaster progression, and your Arcane Ward. You could also go straight Dwarf Abjuration Wizard and use the dwarven armor/weapon training.

[NNescio]

Sorcerer (Favored Soul) -> http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/modifying-classes

Can easily be a frontline fighter and is a full arcane caster.

Yeah, the Favored Soul variant would be the best fit in terms of being both an arcanist and a tank (of sorts). He also brings some needed spells to the table.

Some DMs might think it's OP though thanks to the sheer amount of spells known it grants. I personally don't care too much, as the Sorcerer needs more love. I mean, seriously, his best toy has now been given to most of the other casters, and Wizards are arguably better at 'metamagic' in their specialized schools, and have greater spell flexibility. All the sorcerer has going for him is the nova potential.

--

Another alternative is minionmancy, especially with straight Wizard (necromancer). Have your skellies tank for your team. Might cause some alignment or roleplaying issues though (you can't exactly bring your skellies into most towns and cities). This also assumes you start off at a high enough level to cast Animate Dead.

[Entelechy]

My concern with the Warlock into Wizard is that I need to be a front-liner from level one. I hadn't considered going the dwarf route. Cleric into abjuration does seem like a solid option if I can survive until level three.



Another alternative is minionmancy, especially with straight Wizard (necromancer). Have your skellies tank for your team. Might cause some alignment or roleplaying issues though (you can't exactly bring your skellies into most towns and cities). This also assumes you start off at a high enough level to cast Animate Dead.
Well, the bard is planning on using his Lore spells to get some necromancy specifically to make some bad puns, so I think I could get away with it.

[Celcey]

Another class to consider is Moon Druid. You won't be tanking from level one, but level two ain't so bad, and they're majorly good tanks. Plus it gives you a high wis, which is the one mental skill you lack.

Another thing to consider for tanking is feats for it. The tough feat is good for the extra XP, and the weapons master feat is also a good one. So v.human might be good for getting those feats.

[NNescio]

Another class to consider is Moon Druid. You won't be tanking from level one, but level two ain't so bad, and they're majorly good tanks. Plus it gives you a high wis, which is the one mental skill you lack.

True. And although the Druid isn't really an arcane spellcaster ('though the distinction is mostly lost in 5e), he still gets a lot of AoE control spells and utility spells for scouting and traveling.

Later on he gets to 'tank' every further by summoning animals via Wall of Fur/Feather Conjure Woodland Beings. RAI (clarified by the game designers) you don't get to pick a specific beast (only the CR), 'though you do get to request for specific ones from the DM, so it isn't all random unless your DM decides so.

Giant Owls are very useful for moving around your teammates (grapple, forced movement doesn't provoke, owl has flyby so it doesn't provoke either). In theory you could grapple enemies and drop them, but the owl's athletics modifier kinda sucks. You might as well use them to wall off enemies and have them take the help action to give advantage to an ally's attack roll instead.

The Druid does lack blasting options without the extra spells from Elemental Evil though. Also, nearly all of his good spells require concentration to maintain, unlike some of the spells (defensive and strong utility spells) available to Wizards and Warlocks.

[Mechaviking]

You´ve read the descriptions of Moon Beam and call lightning... right? how about blight? Flaming sphere? Sunbeam? Firestorm? Sunburst?

They are plenty blasty with a repeat blast for the concentration, as a level 3-4 moondruid I mostly cast Moon Beam, then again getting elemental evil players guide is easy enough :D

I´m currently doing Sorcerer 1/Paladin 5, with a static armor bonus of 13+dex, you can go dex + cha paladin and get pretty tanky, since your going off arcane you won´t benefit a lot from feats as a sword and board and rapier + shield is just as good as a longsword and shield. If you want to borrow from me you can use the mariner fighting style ditch the shield and have a permanent free hand to cast shield when you need to, eliminating the need for combat caster.

The extra hp´s from dragon sorcerer are pretty nice as well :D

[Entelechy]

Human variant is out for this game, as with favoured soul. Elemental Evil is in, but all Unearthed Arcana (including favoured soul) is out.

I considered druid. I just worried they weren't tanky enough at level 1.

I don't personally care much about damage/blasting. What I find fun is control, utility, and leveraging my environment. I like being clever, and creating an advantage for other players.

[hymer]

I considered druid. I just worried they weren't tanky enough at level 1.

They aren't tanky at level 1. But then, level 1 is so swingy that being tanky is more in the mind than in the game (to a certain degree, at least; you don't have to worry about Heavy Amor Master, at least). And at level 2, moon druids become too good for the level. If you do choose to go this path, I'd suggest talking it over with your DM first, so there are no surprises.


I don't personally care much about damage/blasting. What I find fun is control, utility, and leveraging my environment. I like being clever, and creating an advantage for other players.

Sounds like you could enjoy a druid! :smallsmile:

[R.Shackleford]

Hey everyone! I'm joining a D&D game, and I've been asked to play a frontline character.

I'm the only person in the group who has played 5e before (including GM), and when I signed on all the other players already had concepts.

We are starting at level one, and the GM has asked me to make a character that can balance a party of a Rogue (going arcane trickster), Bard (going Lore), and Warlock (going Book).

I thought probably the best actual balance would be a paladin (going Oath of Ancients, polearm/sentinel), but I really, really love playing arcane casters, and I am trying to figure out a way to finagle playing one, while still meeting the GM's degree that my character needs to be the party's entire frontline.

I've considered starting with a level of cleric, then going full wizard (illusionist), but I am not sure I can actually make that work as primary tank for the party.

Any ideas or suggestions?

Thanks!

Air or Water Genasi Cleric (Light), Cleric (Tempest), or Cleric (Trickery) could all be race/class combos that work well.

You get some AoE blast spells, can tank well enough (medium armor + shield = 18 AC), and can support.

Maybe throw a level of Fighter or Barbarian in there? Perhaps Barb 2/Cleric X.

Barb 3 (Frenzy)/Cleric (Any) X allows you to take care of your exhaustion.

[Belac93]

I don't personally care much about damage/blasting. What I find fun is control, utility, and leveraging my environment. I like being clever, and creating an advantage for other players.

I would say a tank cleric or paladin then. The cleverness can be covered by roleplaying and player intelligence, and both of those classes give other players advantages (but cleric does it better).

[Entelechy]

I would say a tank cleric or paladin then. The cleverness can be covered by roleplaying and player intelligence, and both of those classes give other players advantages (but cleric does it better).

By giving player's advantage, I didn't mean casting buff spells. And roleplaying and player intelligence is always an option regardless of class, but I am looking for classes that let me leverage player intelligence. I.e. the Conjuration Wizard's object summoning, the minor illusion spell, the Arcane Trickster's kit, the battlemaster's repositioning and combat tricks.

Plus I don't really think most buff spells would particularly useful in this parter because everyone else (except the rogue) is a another full caster.

[Dimolyth]

By giving player's advantage, I didn't mean casting buff spells. And roleplaying and player intelligence is always an option regardless of class, but I am looking for classes that let me leverage player intelligence. I.e. the Conjuration Wizard's object summoning, the minor illusion spell, the Arcane Trickster's kit, the battlemaster's repositioning and combat tricks.

Plus I don't really think most buff spells would particularly useful in this parter because everyone else (except the rogue) is a another full caster.

Although it is not *the tankiest caster ever* build, but... there is Knowledge Domain for cleric. Natural linguist, int-expertise, wizardly bonus spells, and very adaptable channel divinity (if not skills, but proficiency in any tool? That`s damn cool). And exclusive cleric`s Bless spell from first level.

But, seriously - I`d think a moon druid is exactly what you are looking for. With Elemental Evil spells available - Produce Flame & Control Flame combination (with Pyrotechnics & Flaming Sphere) are pretty thematic combo for out of beast state. Not "strong" or "optimized" - just manipulative. I don`t think you will require a lot of tanking at lower levels, even though - moon druid wild shape with self healing and pre-buffing could be pretty good. Consider Magic Initiate - for summon familiar - its aid action could grant a lot of options, and 2 utility cantrips (minor illusion? dancing lights? control flames? shape water?)
Druid has all that flexibility and tank option of full caster, that you want. A lot of utility (even thematic utility). Some important non-concentration buffs. Arcane-artillery evocations available. Wild Shape martial option. You can (optionally) even multiclass 1 level in barbarian, to get rage exclusively for your beast form - that is free damage resistance and advantage on grapples, shoves.

[Shining Wrath]

This party has no need for skills between the Rogue and the Lore Bard. You can neglect those, which weakens the argument for Knowledge Cleric. The Book Warlock will pick up a lot of the utility ritual spells with a little luck and a kind DM. That weakens the argument slightly for a wizard.

Among full caster classes, I'd say Cleric, Life or Tempest.

Paladin is a good fit for not-full casters.

Of course, you could be a non-caster for once and bring the barbarism, or a fighter.

[Vogonjeltz]

We are starting at level one, and the GM has asked me to make a character that can balance a party of a Rogue (going arcane trickster), Bard (going Lore), and Warlock (going Book).

I thought probably the best actual balance would be a paladin (going Oath of Ancients, polearm/sentinel), but I really, really love playing arcane casters, and I am trying to figure out a way to finagle playing one, while still meeting the GM's degree that my character needs to be the party's entire frontline.

I've considered starting with a level of cleric, then going full wizard (illusionist), but I am not sure I can actually make that work as primary tank for the party.

Any ideas or suggestions?

Thanks!

The Wizard has a d6 hit die, the cleric has a d8. Neither one has a fighting style, for example, protection or defense, nor any abilities particularly suited to surviving on the front lines. Illusionist also does basically nothing for survivability.

Worse yet, the Cleric's spellcasting keys off Wisdom, the Wizard's off Int, and if you took the right domain to get heavy armor proficiency you would need strength to properly wear that armor. This means you need 4 stats to be high (Str, Con, Wis, Int) in order to be reasonably effective at class abilities or have minimal levels of physical toughness required for tanking.

Is there any reason you don't just make an Eldritch Knight or a Paladin if you want to be a tank with spellcasting?

[Breltar]

Eldritch Knight? You could go High Elf for a cantrip early on and a boosted Int score.

After you get some of the key EK abilities you could multi into Wizard or Knowledge Cleric or something if you wanted.

[SharkForce]

you don't need high strength to wear heavy armour. you need high strength to move quickly in heavy armour. that is not remotely the same thing.

[Breltar]

you don't need high strength to wear heavy armour. you need high strength to move quickly in heavy armour. that is not remotely the same thing.

You don't really need heavy armor to have high AC either, just depends on if you have the dex to use with medium armor.

[D.U.P.A.]

Abjurer wizard would be good, with arcane ward and defensive spells like Blade ward, Shield and Absorb elements.

[Chaosvii7]

I'm playing an Eldritch Knight 6/Abjurer Wizard 4(shooting for Wizard 14) and I think I'm in a great spot for the most part. I've decided not to max STR or CON, but I already have max INT, with War Caster and Tough for feats. I have above 100 hit points with Arcane Ward, and I have a great selection of spells with a decent array of slots to cast from. I'll never hit 9th level spell territory, but you easily could if you trimmed 3 Fighter levels in favor of Wizard ones. I just did that because I liked the appeal of two feats and extra attack. But right now I do great mixed damage, I'm incredibly tanky, and I'm starting to hit that peak of versatility where my spells are letting me do a bit of everything well. I normally cast Cloud of Daggers and charge in(or teleport, I'm an Eladrin after all) and then Action surge Chromatic Orb + Greatsword attacks. I haven't fallen down at all, and I take a lot of punishment. I think this is strong because of the access to up to 8th level spells, and it hits all the sweet spots of a regular gish (high AC and HP, decent attacks with a Greatsword, good in-combat utility). 14 levels of Wizard gets me all the arcane tradition features, and the fighter levels mean I don't miss out on any less than the regular 5 ability score improvements.

As for other gish, Favored Soul Sorcerers(which are in one of the Unearthed Arcana Articles, DM's discretion) look interesting to me. They're single-classed, so you can spend feats to increase your preferred stats and probably still afford feats for character growth, gets 9th level sorcerer spells with metamagic to boot, and eventually gets great utilities like flight and healing whenever you cast a spell.

Bladelocks are a hot topic around here, but the math comes out with them doing decent damage after Lifedrinker and before level 20 - I think by level 17 it was, they keep pace with other damage dealers for the most part. They can be built tanky(with fighter dips and the like) or as dex-based finesse characters who still have a big focus on their spellcasting. I think Bladelock is the most versatile gish because of its access to full spellcasting plus the utility of invocations.

Besides that, Paladins and Clerics have great frontline capability while still getting a host of powerful spells, so they'd probably be the next on the pecking order.

[MaxWilson]

I've considered starting with a level of cleric, then going full wizard (illusionist), but I am not sure I can actually make that work as primary tank for the party.

Any ideas or suggestions?

Thanks!

For my Out of the Abyss solo party (i.e. I DM myself, in parallel with/in preparation for running my players through the module), one of the four PCs is a Fighter aiming for Fighter 1/Necromancer 9+. That's not quite the same thing as a full caster, but IMO starting as fighter is pretty vital for a front-line tank in order to get heavy armor (w/ Heavy Armor Master feat), Defense fighting style (for AC 21), and Constitution save proficiency (so that I don't lose my Blur/Vampiric Touch/etc. every time I get hit).

Past experience with Paladin/Sorcs tells me that AC of 21 + Shield spell is almost impossible to hit while Dodging, so I'm quite confident that this tank will work out well in spite of his 1d6 hit points, especially when you factor in Grim Harvest and Vampiric Touch. Every kill from Vampiric Touch will grant him 9 HP on top of life drain from Vampiric Touch itself. Can turn on Fire Shield or Evard's Black Tentacles as needed for even more HP restoration. E.g. each creature that dies to Fire Shield gives you another 8 HP, which means you can kill essentially infinite numbers of melee orcs with Fire Shield + Blade Ward. (Each orc will die after hitting you twice; each hit does 9 points of damage, halved for Blade Ward = 4 HP of damage; each orc gives you back exactly as many HP as he dealt to you, on average.)

His DPR will stink of course, but the tank's job is to tank so that everyone else can do their jobs, including the Sharpshooter. So I don't mind not having great DPR--will probably rely on Acid Splash/Chill Touch at early levels and then Vampiric Touch later on, but probably only 10% or less of party DPR will come from the Necrofighter, maybe even less if he is Dodging or Blade Warding a lot.

-Max

[Slipperychicken]

I'd go with [tanky class]1/AbjurerX. That gets you the hitpoints and AC of a tank, and only costs you one level of spell progression. Taking that first level in life domain cleric would give you 18 AC (16 armor +2 shield), and let you use Healing Word 2/day as a bonus action to recover [1d4+wis mod+3] hit points, and give you some cantrips.


And honestly, no class is going to be a really good tank at levels 1-3. Attacks at those levels just do so much damage relative to your hit points. The best I can think of is a life domain cleric, because they can get 18 AC and recover most of their hp with a healing word spell.

[MaxWilson]

And honestly, no class is going to be a really good tank at levels 1-3. Attacks at those levels just do so much damage relative to your hit points. The best I can think of is a life domain cleric, because they can get 18 AC and recover most of their hp with a healing word spell.

The key to tanking at level 1 is not so much class as tactics. Good AC (e.g. chain mail + shield + defense style = AC 19) plus Dodge plus Heroism from the bard (OP says he has a lore bard in the party) makes a perfectly respectable tank.

[djreynolds]

Hey everyone! I'm joining a D&D game, and I've been asked to play a frontline character.

I'm the only person in the group who has played 5e before (including GM), and when I signed on all the other players already had concepts.

We are starting at level one, and the GM has asked me to make a character that can balance a party of a Rogue (going arcane trickster), Bard (going Lore), and Warlock (going Book).

I thought probably the best actual balance would be a paladin (going Oath of Ancients, polearm/sentinel), but I really, really love playing arcane casters, and I am trying to figure out a way to finagle playing one, while still meeting the GM's degree that my character needs to be the party's entire frontline.

I've considered starting with a level of cleric, then going full wizard (illusionist), but I am not sure I can actually make that work as primary tank for the party.

Any ideas or suggestions?

Thanks!

I'm currently playing mountain dwarf abjuration wizard, he's got medium armor, 16,10,16,17,12,6. He throws hand axes, daggers, and light hammers. He uses medium armor and no shield, cause I'm going to use shield spell when I need it and we have no feats, so I can't use a shield and cast and hold an axe without war caster.

Spells I prepare fog cloud, haste, counter-spell, alarm, magic missile (because it can't miss and that's why you at least have it prepared) light, darkness, protection spells, or whatever you want. Lots of utility cantrips and shocking grasp and mage hand and I like ray of frost for its slowing effect

Level 6 you can shift you bonus hit points to someone else.

I took the Hills Far Sherriff and he came with thieves' tool and investigation, it came with persuasion as a skill so its a personality flaw. He's not a glass cannon, and with wizard you can have any spell in your spell book, you're not limited to just abjuration spells.

But most importantly with just a background from Hills Far, mountain dwarf for medium armor and high con, and cantrips for attack with your intelligence stat and high strength to have at least have a chance to avoid being knocked down and all without multiclassing and losing spell progression.

Not bad

addition
You have plenty of utility with bard, tell your rogue to go thief, IMO arcane trickster is not worth it, thief (assassin is great but he needs a tank to get his auto crit and the other stuff is situational).

You do need a tank, war cleric or tempest cleric is great and you have healing, paladin is always welcome. Barbarian and fighters are great tanks but you guys could use some healing. So cleric and Paladin would fit for that. You're rogue is going to need advantage to land those sneak attacks and you will need his damage, so barbarian is nice and battlemaster.

A fifth player would be nice with this group, a paladin or cleric and a war wizard would round it out nice with the rogue, bard, and warlock.

Enjoy. I'd like to see what you chose and how it's going.

[Coyote81]

I can vouch for fighter1/abjuration wizard 5 atm, my groups fighter is more of a dps character and I'm the tank/spell utility person. The abjuartion temp hitpoints combo'd with the shield spell makes me neigh unkillable at times. I took Int/Str(max 15)/con as my main stats, everything else is a dump honestly. Wearing splintmail, with +1 magic shield and defensive style gives me 21 AC. (I'm playing minotaur, which lets me have a weapon and free hand)I might consider taking Goliath as your race since you have access to Elemental Evil, it will make you a bit tankier without having to take more fighter levels. Honestly, you don't really have to have a weapon, you have enough melee cantrips and range attacks to get stuff done.

You could take Life Cleric level 1 instead, lose out on the defensive style and martial weapons, but gain bless(super powerful), and cure wounds options. (if you feel like getting cleric 3 at some point you also get spiritual weapon which an amazing BA to have access to imo.

I think I would stick with fighter, mainly because at level 2 you get action surge, and level 3 lets you take eldritch knight (which gives you 2 cantrips, 3 nown spells and 2 level 1 spell slots, for more shield goodness) In the end I would be Fighter3/Abjuration Wizard17. (Best bonus of abjuration wizard is the almighty counterspell as well)

[MaxWilson]

I'm currently playing mountain dwarf abjuration wizard, he's got medium armor, 16,10,16,17,12,6. He throws hand axes, daggers, and light hammers. He uses medium armor and no shield, cause I'm going to use shield spell when I need it and we have no feats, so I can't use a shield and cast and hold an axe without war caster.

Also because Mountain Dwarves don't have shield proficiency anyway.


I think I would stick with fighter, mainly because at level 2 you get action surge, and level 3 lets you take eldritch knight (which gives you 2 cantrips, 3 nown spells and 2 level 1 spell slots, for more shield goodness) In the end I would be Fighter3/Abjuration Wizard17. (Best bonus of abjuration wizard is the almighty counterspell as well)

Abjuration wizards get the almost-almighty Counterspell. A sorcerer with Glibness up and at least Cha 12 has the actual almighty Counterspell (cannot roll under 19 = never fails against even 9th level spells). Second place goes to a lore bard with Enhance Ability (Cha) and Cha 20; due to Peerless Skill he has +9+d12 on his Counterspell checks and Counterspells 9th level spells about 96% of the time. Abjuration wizard gets +11 on his Counterspell checks and succeeds about 60% of the time.

[Chadamantium]

Some DMs might think it's OP though thanks to the sheer amount of spells known it grants. I personally don't care too much, as the Sorcerer needs more love. I mean, seriously, his best toy has now been given to most of the other casters, and Wizards are arguably better at 'metamagic' in their specialized schools, and have greater spell flexibility. All the sorcerer has going for him is the nova.

where did other casters get metamagic from? Out of the abyss?

[SharkForce]

where did other casters get metamagic from? Out of the abyss?

the "best toy" was spontaneous casting, I think.

as for where wizards get it, the various schools do give some very metamagic-ish abilities. enchantment literally gives twin (but only for enchantment spells), evocation gets a better version of careful spell (as far as evocation spells are concerned), etc.

[Vogonjeltz]

you don't need high strength to wear heavy armour. you need high strength to move quickly in heavy armour. that is not remotely the same thing.

The lack of movement speed gets very embarassing when you can't chase down/outrun enemies, worse when they knock you down and after getting up you can only move 10 feet. This is important when the character actually wants to tank which involves preventing opponents from just walking around you to hit the supposedly more vulnerable teammates.


You don't really need heavy armor to have high AC either, just depends on if you have the dex to use with medium armor.

Medium armor AC caps at 17, Heavy is 18, that's crucial. Plus Fighters can get another point of AC from their fighting style, so we're looking at +2 points of AC vs a Cleric/Wizard mashup. That's a pretty big deal.


A sorcerer with Glibness up and at least Cha 12 has the actual almighty Counterspell

Glibness, 8th level Bard/Warlock only spell. (requires 15 levels of bard or warlock)
Counterspell, 3rd level sorcerer/warlock/wizard only spell. (requires 5 levels of sorcerer, warlock, or wizard).

So a 20th level sorcerer could do this by virtue of being a bard/warlock as well...or just a 15th level warlock.

[Chadamantium]

the "best toy" was spontaneous casting, I think.

as for where wizards get it, the various schools do give some very metamagic-ish abilities. enchantment literally gives twin (but only for enchantment spells), evocation gets a better version of careful spell (as far as evocation spells are concerned), etc.

that makes more sense and I can definitely agree that wizard schools get similar abilities to metamagic.

But yeah, go with favored soul of you can.

[MaxWilson]

Glibness, 8th level Bard/Warlock only spell. (requires 15 levels of bard or warlock)
Counterspell, 3rd level sorcerer/warlock/wizard only spell. (requires 5 levels of sorcerer, warlock, or wizard).

So a 20th level sorcerer could do this by virtue of being a bard/warlock as well...or just a 15th level warlock.

Yeah, I mistyped "sorcerer" when I meant "bard", hence the "with Cha 12" clause. A sorcerer would need at least Cha 18 even if he had Glibness because he doesn't have Jack of All Trades.

And then of course the "almighty Counterspell" can itself be countered by simple Darkness, since Counterspell requires you to see the target.

[coredump]

One of the problems with building a 'tank', is you still *need* offense. If you are really hard to kill, but are not really a threat, they will just ignore you and go attack the squishy folks. They need to have a reason to try and attack you.

[Entelechy]

I can vouch for fighter1/abjuration wizard 5 atm, my groups fighter is more of a dps character and I'm the tank/spell utility person. The abjuartion temp hitpoints combo'd with the shield spell makes me neigh unkillable at times. I took Int/Str(max 15)/con as my main stats, everything else is a dump honestly. Wearing splintmail, with +1 magic shield and defensive style gives me 21 AC. (I'm playing minotaur, which lets me have a weapon and free hand)I might consider taking Goliath as your race since you have access to Elemental Evil, it will make you a bit tankier without having to take more fighter levels. Honestly, you don't really have to have a weapon, you have enough melee cantrips and range attacks to get stuff done.

You could take Life Cleric level 1 instead, lose out on the defensive style and martial weapons, but gain bless(super powerful), and cure wounds options. (if you feel like getting cleric 3 at some point you also get spiritual weapon which an amazing BA to have access to imo.

I think I would stick with fighter, mainly because at level 2 you get action surge, and level 3 lets you take eldritch knight (which gives you 2 cantrips, 3 nown spells and 2 level 1 spell slots, for more shield goodness) In the end I would be Fighter3/Abjuration Wizard17. (Best bonus of abjuration wizard is the almighty counterspell as well)

I really like this idea. So far, it's what I am most inclined to go with. I would skip the 3rd level of Fighter, though, because by my reading (and the DM's reading) of the multi-class rules, all I would gain is 2 cantrips and 3 spells known. The fighter levels would be divided by three and added to my wizard level, and the total applied to the table on 165 to determine my spells per day. Which means I wouldn't gain any extra ones, and my access to higher level slots would all be delayed by another level.


One of the problems with building a 'tank', is you still *need* offense. If you are really hard to kill, but are not really a threat, they will just ignore you and go attack the squishy folks. They need to have a reason to try and attack you.

Which, I suppose, is why paladins have smite :P

Its a good point. If I do go the Fighter 1-2/Abjuration Wizard X route, then I hope simply the wizard spell repertoire will make me enough of a threat. Especially if I am a goliath. Against all but the high intelligence foes, some 8ft tall dude in heavy arm hurling spells is going to at least appear to be a serious threat.


Yeah, I mistyped "sorcerer" when I meant "bard", hence the "with Cha 12" clause. A sorcerer would need at least Cha 18 even if he had Glibness because he doesn't have Jack of All Trades.

And then of course the "almighty Counterspell" can itself be countered by simple Darkness, since Counterspell requires you to see the target.

I guess Warlocks really are the Almighty Counterspellers, then, since they can see through darkness.


I'm currently playing mountain dwarf abjuration wizard, he's got medium armor, 16,10,16,17,12,6. He throws hand axes, daggers, and light hammers. He uses medium armor and no shield, cause I'm going to use shield spell when I need it and we have no feats, so I can't use a shield and cast and hold an axe without war caster.

Spells I prepare fog cloud, haste, counter-spell, alarm, magic missile (because it can't miss and that's why you at least have it prepared) light, darkness, protection spells, or whatever you want. Lots of utility cantrips and shocking grasp and mage hand and I like ray of frost for its slowing effect

Level 6 you can shift you bonus hit points to someone else.

I took the Hills Far Sherriff and he came with thieves' tool and investigation, it came with persuasion as a skill so its a personality flaw. He's not a glass cannon, and with wizard you can have any spell in your spell book, you're not limited to just abjuration spells.

But most importantly with just a background from Hills Far, mountain dwarf for medium armor and high con, and cantrips for attack with your intelligence stat and high strength to have at least have a chance to avoid being knocked down and all without multi-classing and losing spell progression.

Not bad

addition
You have plenty of utility with bard, tell your rogue to go thief, IMO arcane trickster is not worth it, thief (assassin is great but he needs a tank to get his auto crit and the other stuff is situational).

You do need a tank, war cleric or tempest cleric is great and you have healing, paladin is always welcome. Barbarian and fighters are great tanks but you guys could use some healing. So cleric and Paladin would fit for that. You're rogue is going to need advantage to land those sneak attacks and you will need his damage, so barbarian is nice and battlemaster.

A fifth player would be nice with this group, a paladin or cleric and a war wizard would round it out nice with the rogue, bard, and warlock.

Enjoy. I'd like to see what you chose and how it's going.

I am really not into the cleric spell list at all this edition, so I think I will avoid that. Unfortunately, adding a fifth player isn't really an option, since we intend to podcast this, and we are already pushing it with five voices.

So, yeah, right now I am leaning Fighter (1-2)/Wizard X, and theoretically how it is going will be available in podcast form in the near future.

[Argothair]

I have to agree with prior posters that the Eldritch Knight 3 / Abjuration Wizard 17 is the optimal build, or Fighter 2 / Wizard 18 if the rules somehow hose you out of a caster level at Fighter 3.

In terms of a wacky build that meets most of your criteria, how about a Rock Gnome Barbarian 5 / Divination Wizard 15?

Start with 14 STR, 10 DEX, 15 CON, 15 INT, 8 WIS, 8 CHR on point buy, and then add +1 CON, +2 INT from your race. You get four feats, which you can use on Polearm Master, Sentinel, Observant (+1 Int), and Great Weapon Master, for final ability scores of 14 STR, 10 DEX, 16 CON, 20 INT, 8 WIS, 8 CHR.

Equip a Halberd, and each of your two attacks per turn deals 1d10 + 14 damage, plus a bonus attack and/or reaction from Polearm Master and Sentinel, for DPR in the neighborhood of 50 points per turn on melee, plus 8th-level spells cast at DC 18.

Meanwhile, you have an AC of 13 even before Mage Armor or Shield, you get 160 hit points, and you can take the Bear Totem option to gain resistance against all forms of damage except psychic.

Your divination dice can be used as needed to intervene in situations where you intelligently decide that your teammates are most in need of an assist, and your divination spells will help you gain access to otherwise secret info that can help you exploit your DM's setting.

[MaxWilson]

One of the problems with building a 'tank', is you still *need* offense. If you are really hard to kill, but are not really a threat, they will just ignore you and go attack the squishy folks. They need to have a reason to try and attack you.

For the most part, the optimal strategy is to ignore you and kill the squishies regardless of your amount of offense. You have to be pretty glass-cannony before it's worth killing you first--one opportunity attack per round simply isn't enough threat to alter the decision calculus in most situations.

Hence the need for chokepoints.


I guess Warlocks really are the Almighty Counterspellers, then, since they can see through darkness.

But they cannot see through Fog Clouds or Stinking Clouds.

Awakened Mystics, however, can, at least out to 30'.

So can druids in Earth Elemental form, via Tremorsense, and some of their other forms have blindsight 10'. So are druids the Almight Counterspellers now? Round and round we go, paper rock scissors.

[NNescio]

One of the problems with building a 'tank', is you still *need* offense. If you are really hard to kill, but are not really a threat, they will just ignore you and go attack the squishy folks. They need to have a reason to try and attack you.

That's what Sentinel is for.

[MaxWilson]

That's what Sentinel is for.

Sentinel isn't terrible, but it's still only one opportunity attack per round, doesn't scale to unfair fights where you actually need it, and it can miss, and it can't affect enemy decision-calculus anyway until they know you have it.

It's not a terrible idea for a wizard tank, since you can make a Sentinel opportunity attack even if you're a Fighter 1/Necromancer X with a shield and an empty hand for casting Shield. You punch the other guy with your empty fist (instead of casting Shield this round) and sure, he only takes 1 + STR damage this round--but he still can't move. Has nothing to do with your level of offensive output. But you're still losing your reaction and cannot cast Shield.

Personally I think roleplay + Disguise Self (naked barbarian with huge greatsword) is a better way to make yourself an attractive target. Bonus: unlike Sentinel, it still works against missile threats like drow with hand crossbows.

[Entelechy]

Personally I think roleplay + Disguise Self (naked barbarian with huge greatsword) is a better way to make yourself an attractive target. Bonus: unlike Sentinel, it still works against missile threats like drow with hand crossbows.

^^This. I am already going to be a goliath in heavy armor. I can paint something terrifying on my shield, and with goliath carrying capacity I could have a ff7 sword strapped across my back for effect :P

[MaxWilson]

^^This. I am already going to be a goliath in heavy armor. I can paint something terrifying on my shield, and with goliath carrying capacity I could have a ff7 sword strapped across my back for effect :P

Don't forget that ranting and bellowing threats is a free action. :) Ever seen any Maori war dances? Stick out your tongue and bug your eyes while growling and shouting.

[Xetheral]

One of the problems with building a 'tank', is you still *need* offense. If you are really hard to kill, but are not really a threat, they will just ignore you and go attack the squishy folks. They need to have a reason to try and attack you.

At many tables the DM will RP the opponents as treating all armed combatants as a mortal threat, regardless of what strategy might be optimal.

[SharkForce]

At many tables the DM will RP the opponents as treating all armed combatants as a mortal threat, regardless of what strategy might be optimal.

at my table, intelligent enemies consider spells to be weapons.

[Xetheral]

at my table, intelligent enemies consider spells to be weapons.

I was using "armed" broadly, but you're right, I should have just left it as "combatants".

[PoeticDwarf]

You have a lore bard, you can't have enough bards, you want to go frontline and being an arcane caster?

Go Valor Bard with two level ranger dip for hunter's mark and fighting style or steal hunter's mark and go for 1 fighter (you miss one level 7 slot) and get TWF feat for 3d8+3d6+15 damage a round. Or be a front line archer with sharpshooter and crossbow expert for 6d6+45 damage (without magic weapons).