Non-standard empyreal lords

[Xuldarinar]

To the point, can outsider races other than agathion, angel, archon, and azata become empyreal lords? For instance, could a peri become an empyreal lord?

If yes, what if the outsider in question possessed a good alignment when they ascended, but not the subtype?



Im toying around with a notion. An (Evil) outsider, not like a certain succubus paladin, left their previous alignment behind and took on the good alignment. A time after their redemption, whether it is shortly after in mortal time or a long time even to the scale of an outsider, they manage to achieve "demigodhood". Im pondering what label to slap on them, and if such a thing would even be 'possible'. Not likely, but possible.

[Aldrakan]

Empyreal lords are essentially good aligned outsiders that have achieved the rank of demigod, just as a demons who achieve this are demon lords, devils become archdevils, so on. They are listed as being angels, archons, azatas, and agathions. My question is of a matter a bit more complicated:

Assume a good aligned outsider who is not an angels, an archon, an azata, or an agathion becomes a demigod. Are they an emperyial lord?

What if they possessed a good alignment when the ascended, but not the subtype?


There is an example that may be relevant for you:


In this adventure path Nocticula, the demon lord of assassins, darkness, and lust, has the potential to ascend to godhood. If she does she becomes a CN deity of outcasts, artists, and midnight, seemingly confirming her heretical priestesses belief that she's a fallen empyreal lord seeking redemption. In this case ascension to full godhood was apparently necessary to shed demonic corruption, but she was already of demigod "rank".


I'm not certain what conclusion to draw from that example, as becoming an empyreal isn't really an option in that case because of both the CN and the full deity factors, but it does demonstrate that the demonic aspect can be shed.

However, Ragathiel, empyreal lord of chivalry, duty, and vengeance, is the son of the archdevil Dispater and the fire goddess Feronia, and explicitly struggles with fiendish corruption. It took a long time, but eventually he was accepted into the empyreal lords. So I'd think that probably they could become an empyreal, although they might need the other empyreals to be on board.

[Xuldarinar]

Thank you, that helps a great deal actually. For what will be the seed of what I create, I think it is worth looking here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18275787&postcount=453).

If anyone else has anything else to throw in on the subject, I do welcome the input.

[Psyren]

Anything is possible, and I could easily see an Empyreal Lord being a redeemed fiend and championing the concept of Redemption itself. "If I could do it, from the depths of Hell, you can too," or something along those lines.

[Afgncaap5]

I think you can make that work. Empyreal Lords are largely defined by the end result of a change, and you've got a story that suggests a very nice change. (Psyren, I love the "If I could do it there, you can do it now" attitude you're suggesting. I may use that actually...)

I'd also say that Pathfinder's lore is a little more hard-nosed about some definitions than some campaigns might require. It's still a sore-spot for me that Pathfinder apparently has "Outsider" as a prerequisite for being a demon or devil. (I loved that not all demons in D&D 3.5 are Outsiders, and made a few of my own. The "Giant Shrike" was just of the animal type, but thoroughly demonic in how it acts, mostly just by imitating the real-life Shrike.) I'd say that if your story gets the creature to mechanically be this, gets other Empyreal Lords to recognize it as such, and makes the enemies of Empyreal Lords recognize it as such, then it effectively is one. So, have one! :smallsmile:

[Xuldarinar]

Given my fondness for kyton, and that I did get advice on how one might be put upon the path to redemption, I am approaching making a Kyton who became an Empyreal Lord. Some may or may not have noticed it over in the homebrew section. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?442835-Empyreal-Lord-The-Smiling-Flagellant) Thats not to say I won't do other fiends, in fact there could be a great deal of fun to be had in such things. If only it were easier to fill the details out, like a holy symbol, or what exactly obedience provides. If someone goes over there and has any advice, I'd appreciate it. Thus far I got, domain wise: Darkness, Destruction, Good, and Law (Archon, Kyton, Redemption, Torture). I certainly can change it and.. I just might tweak it to fit the theme, as needed.



There is a question that stems from that though. I do know of instances in which an individual is good aligned but provides some evil spells, so that part is covered.

Are there instances in which, or is it reasonable to have, a patron provide subdomains associated with more than one outsider species? Or.. at least where a patron provides a subdomain for a corner alignment outsider who doesn't possess said alignment?

[Xuldarinar]

I do appreciate the feed back i've gotten here thus far, and i've another question to pose. More of a matter of interest, but also one of possibility. Below is a list of potential things to rise to the level of an empyreal lord and the alignment they would be. I want to see people's thoughts:

Asura: Lawful Good
Daemon: Neutral Good
Demodand: Chaotic Good
Demon: Chaotic Good
Devil: Lawful Good (We can argue Ragathiel, as the Son of Dispater, counts)
Div: Neutral Good
Oni: Lawful Good
Qlippoth: Chaotic Good
Rakshasa: Lawful Good

Tapestry Entity: Chaotic Good


Of course, not limited to these. If someone has another typically evil aligned outsider they want to throw out there, I'd be interested in seeing it.

[lunaticfringe]

Outsider(chaotic, demon, extrplanar, good) is what I would do if I were making an E Lord demon. Nothing in the demon subtype entry states they must be evil or even chaotic. Keep the traits, none of which list anything to do with alignments. Season with the Alignment Subtypes to taste.

Edit: Heck you could keep the evil subtype too, it has no effect on a creatures actual alignment or effects that target specific alignments. Basically you'd have an Empyreal Lord who could over come Good/Evil/Lawful DR and be affected by effects that specifically target Good creatures. And summon evil outsiders but I assume it wouldn't use that ability too often, maybe for information gathering purposes. Or maybe my E Lord Demon summons other Demons when fighting Devils or in similar dire situations.

[Psyren]

There was a line somewhere in 3.5 (Savage Species?) that stated that creatures with two opposing morality subtypes, or an alignment opposing their subtype, got the worst of both worlds. So a Succubus Paladin would be susceptible to both Smite Evil and Smite Good for example.

To me this approach makes the most sense; it mechanically reinforces why this path is so difficult to follow and therefore justifies why so few fiends are capable of it, or willing to even try. (And why, among even when some do succeed, they generally don't live very long to share their viewpoints in the Abyss or the Heavens alike.)

[lunaticfringe]

Perhaps I'm not very familiar with all of 3.5's rules and splat books. I thought this was for Pathfinder, where having a good or evil subtype has no bearing on your actual alignment. It just basically treats your natural attack as the alignment for the purposes of overcoming DR.
The 3.5 method would make sense for a PC or mid to high level NPC, but I think the Pathfinder way would work better for an Empyreal Lord which is basically a mini god.

[Psyren]

Perhaps I'm not very familiar with all of 3.5's rules and splat books. I thought this was for Pathfinder, where having a good or evil subtype has no bearing on your actual alignment. It just basically treats your natural attack as the alignment for the purposes of overcoming DR.

This is for Pathfinder, and I never said it has a bearing on your "actual alignment." What I said is that it makes you count as that alignment for mechanical things that look for that alignment, like Smite or Detect. And by Pathfinder RAW, that is still true. All the 3.5 ruling did is spell that out more explicitly.

If you have the [Evil] subtype, you will detect as evil and be smiteable by Smite Evil, regardless of your actual alignment. Here is the rule from the Pathfinder Bestiary, pgs. 311-312:


Evil Subtype

This subtype is usually applied to Outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil Outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields are evil-aligned.