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tobian
2007-05-14, 06:50 PM
All right, I was thinking this today when I got bored.

How would a character shift to a more lawful alignment?

Aside from magically induced alignment change, I was having a hard time imagining how one would naturally shift towards a lawful alignment progressing through a campaign. It seems like most alignment shifts I have encountered on that axis have been towards a more chaotic one. It seems that it makes more sense to shift to be more unpredictable and unbound by rules than to follow rules better and be more methodical.

Thus, i'm not sure how how one could become more lawful
(or more specifically, to a lawful x alignment). It could just be my naturally chaotic personality, but I dont really see how lawful shifts happen outside of magical means. I even had a friend who loves paladins to death be unsure of how lawful shifts could/would happen. It has never came up in any of our games either.

Any stories from campaigns you have been in that had PCs go through lawful shifts? (Non-magical)

Skjaldbakka
2007-05-14, 06:53 PM
Adventuring in Planescapes. Spending enough time in the lawful-aligned cities doing paperwork will either drive you MAD or cause you to adapt more towards a lawful alignment.

Consistently manipulating the system to achieve your goals would cause you to drift towards lawful as well.

Corinthian
2007-05-14, 08:05 PM
Well.. there are many ways I can think of.. the easy one is maturity of a character..

Normally, you have people who have lived wild days in their younger years but they slowly shift into a more calm state... Having a character shift from Chaotic to Lawful through learning that his selfish ways are not going to help him advance in life.. or that his reckless behavior is hurting his morale... something like that

Usually, from Chaotic Good to Lawful Good is not that hard... you turn from Chaotic Good to Neutral Good and become more and more centered until you are turned into a Lawful Good character... this takes a lot of time to change

For characters in the Neutral Axis is harder. Good characters are there to help people to some extent... they want to change if they think is the right thing to do... Neutral Characters are harder to change, but not impossible...

A Chaotic Neutral changing to a Lawful Neutral could require more of an outside pressure more than an internal struggle... A character could see himself forced into changing his ways via indoctrination to a certain order or to a monastic life(not monks per se).. that could deal with the change from Chaotic Neutral to True Neutral/Undecided.. from there he could change his views more naturally like a Good aligned character

JaronK
2007-05-14, 08:07 PM
Chaotic doesn't mean selfish...

Anyway, you could go through a few incidents where breaking the rules to get things done got you in more trouble than expected, and thus learn to respect the laws a bit more.

JaronK

Corinthian
2007-05-14, 08:08 PM
Chaotic doesn't mean selfish...

Anyway, you could go through a few incidents where breaking the rules to get things done got you in more trouble than expected, and thus learn to respect the laws a bit more.

JaronK

Chaotic Neutral characters tend to be more selfish, though

Dark Knight Renee
2007-05-14, 08:13 PM
One way of shifting towards 'lawfulness' is for a character to simply lose their chaotic tendancies through character development, usually quite slowly. For example, a character who might have been a reckless, chaotic youth but has mellowed out and has learned to value ordeer and logic as he/she/it gained years and experiance. A traumatic even linked (at least in the character's mind) with chaotic things (vagueness much) might also serve to drive a more chaotic character towards lawfulness, IE a reckless or haphazard individual who got burned and retreated to working "by the book."


Myself, I tend to slide towards Chaotic alignments and have difficulty maintaining lawfulness in characters. Paladins are an aditional headache.

Corinthian
2007-05-14, 08:16 PM
One way of shifting towards 'lawfulness' is for a character to simply lose their chaotic tendancies through character development, usually quite slowly. For example, a character who might have been a reckless, chaotic youth but has mellowed out and has learned to value ordeer and logic as he/she/it gained years and experiance. A traumatic even linked (at least in the character's mind) with chaotic things (vagueness much) might also serve to drive a more chaotic character towards lawfulness, IE a reckless or haphazard individual who got burned and retreated to working "by the book."


Myself, I tend to slide towards Chaotic alignments and have difficulty maintaining lawfulness in characters. Paladins are an aditional headache.

That's good too...

And strangely enough, I tend to be more Lawful... Paladins are awesome

NullAshton
2007-05-14, 08:39 PM
Changing towards lawful would be more like respecting the laws, I think. Be honest, don't break promises with the big bad evil guy but rather don't make them in the first place. They would also move towards more elaborate detailed plans, not just making up stuff on the go.

I believe they would also be more patient, and less impulsive. Instead of jumping into a fight, they would first see if they could get any advantages from the battlefield, or anything that they have to watch out for.

Jannex
2007-05-15, 12:22 AM
The first thing that came to my mind was that a Chaotic character might find himself traveling in the company of individuals even more Chaotic than he is, forcing him into the role of the "voice of reason" out of sheer self-preservation instinct. "Guys, listen! I know planning is boring and all, but you remember what happened last time we just charged in? I'm really not in the mood to go fishing corpses out of purple worm gizzards, so can we maybe just plan a little bit? I'll give you a cookie..."

Dramatic foils are often vehicles for character change. :smallwink:

thehothead
2007-05-15, 12:29 AM
"Guys, listen! I know planning is boring and all, but you remember what happened last time we just charged in? I'm really not in the mood to go fishing corpses out of purple worm gizzards, so can we maybe just plan a little bit? I'll give you a cookie..."

Sigged... and can I have a cookie too?

Jannex
2007-05-15, 12:36 AM
Sigged... and can I have a cookie too?

Wow, that's the first time I've been sigged! :smallbiggrin: You can have a cookie for sigging me.

Yechezkiel
2007-05-15, 12:38 AM
I think guilt would move a character towards Lawful in several instances. A Chaotic character gets a party-member/npc killed by being reckless, a Neutral character let's someone get away with something that they later regret.

p.s. both of those examples remind me of the three Spider-Man movies for some reason:smalltongue:

TheOOB
2007-05-15, 12:40 AM
Heres how I calculate alingment. Every level or two (depending on how fast they are leveling) I look at every character and basically ask myself how generally have they been acting the last level or two, and assign their alignment to the answer I get.

Lemur
2007-05-15, 01:05 AM
Events from adventuring itself could spark an alignment shift towards lawful. This could be regardless of the personalities of other party members even.

Adventuring is dangerous business, as one might imagine. Discipline and planning can be a saving grace when people's lives are on the line. As a character adventures, he may find that "just winging it" isn't good enough, and is a significant risk to himself, or people he cares about. This could be especially pronounced if a loved one is injured or worse as a result of the character's carelessness or gung-ho actions. Starting to become more and more like a military, battle hardened veteran who places teamwork above everything else can be a natural development for some adventurers, even if they were jokers or carefree before.

Another shifting factor might be if the adventurer gains more responsibility as he gains power and status. It doesn't even require something abstract like "with great power comes great responsibility"- there could be more material reasons to become more lawful. For example, if a character becomes knighted, or gains other responsibility with higher authority, circumstances might just force him into a more lawful personality.

There are also dramatic, but unlikely causes for alignment shifts. For example, freelance thief or other ne'er-do well might get caught by the authorities. As part of a bargain to get out of life imprisonment or execution, he might agree to work for the authorities. Even though he might still be chaotic at first, he'll probably start to resent the criminals he has to deal with, since the more chaotic they are, the harder his job will be. He might start to recognize and truly understand the damage that chaotic people do, or he may see parts of his former self in the criminals he deals with, and even may begin to hate the person he once was and then would truly change.

Even if he doesn't have such revelations, he may develop friendships in spite of himself with his new partners who work for the authorities. It wouldn't be surprising for some things to rub off on him. Or perhaps just having a steady job might do it, whereas before being chaotic suited a freewheeling, but unpredictable lifestyle.

Remember that there are still good reasons and circumstances that would cause a character to shift more towards chaos as a result of adventuring.

TheOOB
2007-05-15, 01:23 AM
Generally speaking, I'd say most adventurers get more lawful as time goes on. As you get more and more powerful, you start finding applications for your power beyond the immediate scope of your current situation, and thus you start thinking more on a global scale rather then a local one, which is a defining lawful trait.

Peregrine
2007-05-15, 01:12 PM
I'd say that it's not 'local vs global', but 'individual vs group' that is important. So a Chaotic character doesn't get Lawful because they want to take over the world rather than just the village. But they do get Lawful because they become concerned with the fate of the empire rather than the fate of themselves and their loved ones.

I'm playing a NG rogue right now whom I can foresee turning Lawful in the future. We've just found out that the girl we're escorting happens to be of royal blood (thanks to her mother's indiscretion some years ago), and a recent mishap has put her second in line to the throne... after a missing and possibly dead princess. Now, my character has taken a personal liking to this little girl. If she becomes queen, it's quite plausible that my character will also take an interest in the affairs of the nation. (It's also possible that he won't, and that he'll only act to serve the nation because he's personally loyal to the queen. But I tend to drift towards Lawfulness.)

Matthew
2007-05-28, 04:25 PM
Hmmn. We had a Chaotic Neutral Barbarian, who through consistantly unfavourable personal combat results gradually became more cautious and less inclined to act on impulse (not only in combat, but in general). I ruled that he shifted Alignment from Chaotic Neutral to Neutral.

Yvian
2007-05-28, 04:52 PM
Have him wander in a large city with a well working sewer system. I am being serious.

Let them see the wonders and joys of a lawful system up close.

Let them see the compassion of a Paladin up close.

Don't give them cash for killing the big evil guy - give them a manor - a source of "real" wealth.

etc.

Chaotic is the natural status of a man, lawful is the natural status of a civilized man [i.e. cities, writting, blacksmiths [who invented writting] who make wonderous weapons, etc.]

de-trick
2007-05-28, 05:07 PM
follow the laws of city's have honor for people, respect, believes ,calmness , kinship

Dan_Hemmens
2007-05-28, 05:28 PM
I'm a bit confused by this, why do you find shifts towards Lawful hard to grasp?

Is it just that Alignment shifts, in many cases, have a punitive effect? If you steal that loot/kill that guard/do that thing you want to do you'll take a shift towards evil/chaotic?

tobian
2007-05-28, 07:24 PM
Wow, i'm suprised to see this thread back up-it went from the 15th to the 28th.

But anyways.

To answer the question of the poster above me, yea, I saw it as a little more hard to grasp than a chaotic shift. I can see how it happens now; it just seems less common in DnD world. It's a suitable shift IMO, not like chaotic shifts which can happen fairly rapidly. It takes more time, i.e. being more cautious like some posters said and thinking things through and following the rules of society. It also seems rarer from what i've seen/heard for a DM to slap someone with a lawful shift from a chaotic one than the other way around.

Hope that clears up some.

Diamondeye
2007-05-28, 08:14 PM
I would guess a person would go from chaotic to lawful the same way as the real world. "Bucking the system", whether that is the rest of the party, or the law, or whatever, bit them in the rear end one too many times, so they learn to work within the system (if good) or "play the system" (if evil) or somwhere in between (if neutral) to a greater degree.

TheOOB
2007-05-28, 08:53 PM
Laws has nothing to do with the law/chaos axis.

A lawful person might follow a law because they belive the law is designed to keep the nation stable and safe, and that by disobaying the law they are hurting the nation. A lawful person might disobay a law because they belive it is hurting the nation as a whole and that by fighting agienst the law they may help to abolish it and make the nation better.

A chaotic person might follow a law because it either makes sense to them, or they don't want to deal with the repercussions of breaking the law. They might break a law because it does not make sense to them, or that breaking the law will help they get what the want (good or ill) and they think they can get away with it.

A lawful person will or will not obay a law based on the impact their actions might have on the whole town, nation, or even world, while a chaotic pwerson will or will not obay a law based on the impact their actions might have on themselves and those around them. Chaotic people are very here and now, lawful people look over a greater time and distance, often at the expense of here and now.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-05-29, 11:20 AM
Wow, i'm suprised to see this thread back up-it went from the 15th to the 28th.

But anyways.

To answer the question of the poster above me, yea, I saw it as a little more hard to grasp than a chaotic shift. I can see how it happens now; it just seems less common in DnD world. It's a suitable shift IMO, not like chaotic shifts which can happen fairly rapidly. It takes more time, i.e. being more cautious like some posters said and thinking things through and following the rules of society. It also seems rarer from what i've seen/heard for a DM to slap someone with a lawful shift from a chaotic one than the other way around.

Hope that clears up some.

I think that's because most "chaotic" actions are active rather than passive, and it's easier to say "if you steal that, you'll take a shift towards chaotic" than vice versa.

At the risk of sounding cynical, DMs do frequently use alignment shifts as punishment for player stepping out of line, and it's quite hard to piss the DM off with Lawful behaviour.

Diamondeye
2007-05-29, 11:45 AM
Laws has nothing to do with the law/chaos axis.

A lawful person might follow a law because they belive the law is designed to keep the nation stable and safe, and that by disobaying the law they are hurting the nation. A lawful person might disobay a law because they belive it is hurting the nation as a whole and that by fighting agienst the law they may help to abolish it and make the nation better.

That would be a good act, not a lawful act. A lawful evil person, for example, would not care if the law hurt the nation or not, he'd care about how he could use the law to personal advantage.


A chaotic person might follow a law because it either makes sense to them, or they don't want to deal with the repercussions of breaking the law. They might break a law because it does not make sense to them, or that breaking the law will help they get what the want (good or ill) and they think they can get away with it.

A lawful person will or will not obay a law based on the impact their actions might have on the whole town, nation, or even world, while a chaotic pwerson will or will not obay a law based on the impact their actions might have on themselves and those around them. Chaotic people are very here and now, lawful people look over a greater time and distance, often at the expense of here and now.

No, a good person will obey or not obey a law based on the impact on the community (local or otherwise). An evil person will obey or not obey a law based on the ramifications for themselves.

Chaotic people don't care about the law. A Chaotic good person, for example, wouldn't care if it was illegal to give money to beggers; he'd do it or not as he felt like. A lawful good person would be more concerned with changing the law to allow giving money to beggers, but he probably wouldn't be inclined to do it as long as it was illegal. He'd probably look for a different way to help.

The chaotic good person in the above example might become more lawful if he got arrested for giving money to beggers, and decided it was better to get the law changed than just doing what he though was right. If he decided he just didn't care about beggers because the law caused him trouble, and he was just going to ignore them in the future, that would be a selfish act, and a shift towards evil.

Zirael
2007-05-29, 01:03 PM
Maybe a bit out of topic, but I have a problem.

I play a chaotic neutral elf, favoured soul of Tritheveon (who is a chaotic good god of rebelion against the tyrany). My first character concept was just a rebelious girl that always wanted to do what she wishes, no matter what others think. Still she wouldn't hurt anyone without a purpose, try to do the "right" thing and such.
Lately she travelled to another country where elves are dyscriminated against, not to say oppressed. So at first she made a decision she should not only fight for her own freedom, but also for freedom for all elves as a race. She's getting more and more angry and the more she sees, the less she cares about killing an innocent human. Hell, they're opressing innocent elves, they deserve it!

So, the dilemma is: is she really shifting towards evil ( "let's kill those bastards!")? Because, from other point of view, she might be shifting towards good as well. She doesn't fight for herself but rather for others, for the opressed. Andis she also shifting towards lawful? On one hand, she's not minding only her own business any more, but an the other hand she's still fighting against the once set rules. And finally, what to do when her alignment no longer maches her deities' alignment?

Stephen_E
2007-05-30, 07:42 AM
One thing obvious from this discussion (even if you hadn't learnt it from all the other alignment discussions) is that people have quite different views of what Chaotic and Lawful are, including the old saws Chaotic=lesser evil and Chaotic=irresponsible.

To start with I'll say that I see adventuring as fairly chaotic in general. That doesn't mean you are automatically chaotic if you're an adventurer, but a lot of what adventuring parties do is fairly chaotic in approach.

How to roleplay a change of alignment to Lawful? Instead of burning out that Orc village that has been raiding the local town, organise a treaty. Get the Orcs working with the town. Find common ground. When you get that Dragon's hoard, instead of spending it all on fancy equipment, invest it in infrastructure for the local town. Instead of wandering from town to town, set up a household, get married, have kids AND make sure you're there for their birthdays, remember and turnup for your wedding aniversary, 1st date anniversary ecetre.

Simply put most adventurers live a footloose easygoing lifestyle. Even those Paladins! Put structure in your life. When someone says "lets go off and loot this dungeon that's just been discovered" try saying "sorry, there's a town meeting tommorrow where we're trying to organise building an aqueduct from the nearbye lake".

Stephen

Arlanthe
2007-05-30, 07:44 AM
I think all alignments should be exprssed in terms of cheese.

My rogue is Aged Gouda.

Swooper
2007-05-30, 10:08 AM
I think getting a girlfriend shifted my alignment a step towards lawful. Now I rarely go to bed after midnight, for example. :s

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-30, 10:15 AM
An easy way to get lawful good fast is to volunteer your services as a peace keeper to a kind governor or king and act accordingly. Just make sure to scope them out first and determine the ruler in question to actually be good.

PMDM
2007-05-30, 10:22 AM
Another easy way to become lawful is to go to a place of destiny, or whatever, and see how the universe was made. If you're lucky, it was made with a plan in mind, hence, for lawful purposes. This will probably change your outlook on life, making you lawful.

O.K. Not so easy.