Feminist Campaign Brainstorm

[Figgin of Chaos]

I'm planning out my first 5e campaign (though not my first RPG campaign), and would welcome suggestions.

Here's what I have so far:

-The PCs meet in a prison. They can work out for themselves what they did, or were framed for, to get in there. Given that the setting's government is excessively patriarchal and corrupt, the possibilities range from "Murder" to "Learning how to use a sword while being a woman." Presumably, the PCs escape.

-The PCs start out around 5th level, and therefore each have some room for adventuring in their backstory.

-The setting is ruled by patriarchal, capitalist, tyrannical government. The people in power are the primary antagonists of the campaign, utter morons who the PCs can feel good about fighting.

-The PCs spend most of the campaign on the run from the law. They can be more subtle and attract less attention from the law, or be less subtle and become more (in)famous.

-There are many people who want to change the society they live in. The PCs can help them through quests, forming alliances.

-Either through diplomacy and compassionate discourse, beating up lots of misogynists, or a combination thereof, the PCs will change the world they live in.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Sounds a little wish-fulfillment-y, though I guess that's a perfectly good reason to play RPGs.

I've always felt the lack of patriarchy in D&D was an important part of the game - when I DM, every single NPC has their sex determined by coin toss.

I suppose, if I were to offer advice, it would be to be as subtle as possible. Don't make the antagonists cartoonishly evil straw-patriarchs. It'll be more interesting and more rewarding.

[Alberic Strein]

And absolutely NOTHING could go wrong with that!

But if you would allow me some suggestions:

-Brainwashing. Either by the sheer power of peer pressure, magic, psionics, or else, people are being robbed of their ability to think and are being indoctrinated through apparently innocuous everyday acts which conceal in themselves a deep and dark hiddent meaning.

-An extensive spy subplot, with mysoginistic fake information being spread around by the evil monolithic tyrannic patriarchy, and your PCs have to oppose that.

-Traitors. You cited forming alliances, the issue with that is you never know when a you are contacting legit Resistance or when it's a dummy group put there to trap and/or spy on you, which sets some nice paranoïa fuel for your PCs.

-Divergence in ideologies. It's linked with the pas points, unluckily, groups that unite against a greater, oppressive power are not automatically same-minded, the group will have to unite and smoothe things over with different minded groups, and maybe have to make the tough choice of killing all members of a group rather than let them leave the Alliance with critical information that could compromise the Resistance.

Plenty of fun all around. Again, what could go wrong?

Edit: Ninja_Prawn offers good advice, though I had the feeling you were going for a more cartoony, manichean setting. If so, then go full steam ahead, silver age comics inspired settings are funny as hell too, so I don't see why your version wouldn't be.

[steppedonad4]

Firstly, all the PC's should be female. They should all then meet the Prince. Each of the PC's should then go on a date with the Prince. Afterwards, the Prince lines all the PC's up and gives a rose to whomever of the PC's he'd like to have a second date with. Eventually, he'll only have one rose to give out, and that lucky PC will become the Princess.

You should also restrict them to choosing Tool Proficiencies in Ironing, Baking, Cooking & Cleaning and not allow them to have a Strength above 12, and a Charisma below 16. Extra points for a high Dexterity score.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Firstly, all the PC's should be female. They should all then meet the Prince. Each of the PC's should then go on a date with the Prince. Afterwards, the Prince lines all the PC's up and gives a rose to whomever of the PC's he'd like to have a second date with. Eventually, he'll only have one rose to give out, and that lucky PC will become the Princess.

You should also restrict them to choosing Tool Proficiencies in Ironing, Baking, Cooking & Cleaning and not allow them to have a Strength above 12, and a Charisma below 16. Extra points for a high Dexterity score.

Well see, that's what I mean about D&D being inherently patriarchy-free: it's hard-coded into the rules. If you try to create a setting where there is sexism, you have to start messing with the rules to keep it consistent. Maybe that's worth it for your group.

[NNescio]

They should go into the Underdark some time. Gaze long into the abyss and all that.

Best done after some of the characters become extremists in their methods.

[Figgin of Chaos]

Thanks for your suggestions; I'm surprised to get so many already.

Sexism is basically unheard of in the games my group usually plays. I want to try something different, where sexism is prominent in the society of the setting, but not in my DMing.

The PCs don't have to be all female, but I have a feeling they all will anyway; maybe with a few nonbinary characters. Up to them.

I'm considering having an NPC travel with the party, primarily to prompt roleplaying conversations. He would be male, from a distant matriarchal civilization, and consider combat outside his gender role. He'd be trying to get back to his homeland, but have an abysmal sense of direction and an allergy to maps.

I'm the member of my group who's the best at "going ham," so I think it'd be a wasted opportunity not to use that while DMing. But not everything is about being ridiculous.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I'm surprised to get so many already.

You said the word "feminist" on the internet, what did you expect? It's a good thing these fora are so progressive...

Re: hamming it up, I'm not really very good at that, so you might want to discount my suggestions.

[Steampunkette]

No need to go into psionics or magical mind control.

Just look at society in the Western World, specifically, in the past 1,500 years.

The Patriarchy isn't a shadow government of misogynists, it's social customs and ideas that are pervasive through society and harmful to women. It's hidden in the open, so simple, common, and thorough that it becomes invisible.

Just like Racism.

If you throw it knto an extreme and comical version of itself, over the top and mystical and mechanical functions rather than just the way people are raised, you risk negating the impact and insight into our own reality.

Don't limit female characters mechanically. Have society simple designed to cater to and support men while expecting women to fall into a standard pattern... and then have that society unable to handle women who don't fit that stereotype.

And then have the men who stand up for them face similar derision as they are clearly mad, seduced, or weak and womanly, themselves. Because womanhood is an insult unto itself within a patriarchal society. After all, who wants to throw or run or hit like a girl?

[Alberic Strein]

You see this moment, Figgin? Enjoy this beautiful moment. It is commonly called the calm before the sh*tstorm. Sooner or later, somebody is going to post something which will be arguably sexist, or definitely sexist, and a lot of people are going to take exception to that. And then a lot of other people will take exception to people taking exception to that, and once the machine is started, there is no stopping it. So yeah. Feminism on the internet. Could be renamed Storm Starter.

By the way, the DMPC that is going to start the group conversations on sexism? Well, it's a DMPC based idea so beware the slippery slope. Also and more importantly, don't get take it too personally if the PCs somehow engineer his death. If they do so, please accept that and plan accordingly.

Also, it's not about being ridiculous, it's about being light-heartedly silly, which seems to suit your campaign quite well.

Which is not, I repeat, something bad. It's quite good actually. Not every game has to be uber serious and philosophical about everything. Sometimes you want a light-hearted game with card-carrying incompetent villains that the heroes can feel good about beating up. And it's great. I personally love playing BADASS (yes, the all-caps are in the name), it's silly, it's incredibly 90's silly, and it's ground breakingly awesome. I don't see why your campaign couldn't be just that.

If you wanted to go for the subtly ultra-serious game (which is fine too), then ninja_prawn's advice is a pretty good start and more could only do you good.

Edit: Well, here it goes...

[Ninja_Prawn]

Edit: Well, here it goes...

*braces self*

And Steampunkette, you should know better.

[Steampunkette]

Oh, probably. But it's something that should be said, even if some people find it contentious.

I think it'd make for a bit starker of a game that leads to actually questioning the world and character interaction rather than simple "the men wearing phallic hats are the bad guys" style gameplay.

[Marlowe]

Firstly, all the PC's should be female. They should all then meet the Prince. Each of the PC's should then go on a date with the Prince. Afterwards, the Prince lines all the PC's up and gives a rose to whomever of the PC's he'd like to have a second date with. Eventually, he'll only have one rose to give out, and that lucky PC will become the Princess.

You should also restrict them to choosing Tool Proficiencies in Ironing, Baking, Cooking & Cleaning and not allow them to have a Strength above 12, and a Charisma below 16. Extra points for a high Dexterity score.

http://i.imgur.com/aphzJEM.png

[busterswd]

I think it'd make for a bit starker of a game that leads to actually questioning the world and character interaction rather than simple "the men wearing phallic hats are the bad guys" style gameplay.

Well, that is the tricky part; it's easy to make chauvinists literally evil, but a lot trickier to point out the subtler things that people take for granted. Also it's tricky trying avoid beating people over the head with Aesops; a good campaign isn't going to make soapboxing the end goal, but weave it in seamlessly with a story that reflects the point you're trying to make.

I really do like the idea of clashing the Underdark society values in with the aboveground normies, because it's an inherently matriarchal society. Or maybe even subvert that idea. Maybe the Underdark, rumored to be a society with brutal, ruthless women who enslave men is merely equal. Drow men aren't afraid to do stereotypically female roles because drow live in the underdark; EVERYONE needs to work together to survive, regardless of how menial a job seems. Doesn't mean the drow can't still be evil and treacherous, but they've simply got their heads on straight in regards to gender roles.

[Steampunkette]

I like that idea, a lot, Buster.

[MinotaurWarrior]

I'd say that the hard part of making this campaign setting will be bridging the gap between the sort of feminism and feminist "revolution" were familiar with, and a typical fantasy setting. I think there's basically three options:

1) The Flinstones method. You just go ahead and say, "this is a fantasy game, it's silly fun, and so whatever trope we want to explore this week will exist in the setting regardless of whether or not it makes sense." E.g. even though your setting has all the markings of a pre-wage-labor society, you still run an adventure about sexism in the workplace and the PCs help the, say, secretarial pool of Bridegton unionize and demand fairer treatment, even though Bridgeton is a standard medieval town that wouldn't normally have such things.

2) The "magic-is-technology" method. Full plate is still the pinnacle of battlefield technology, but because of various sorts of magic, we don't have the vast majority of the population engaged in agricultural labor, most men have "jobs", middle class men have the luxury of keeping their women in the home forbidden from working in the market, et cetera. So, this likely has interesting implications for how the fantastic elements are involved in the partriarchy. At the hammiest, maybe industry is led by Fiend-Pact warlocks! There could also be fights to get into wizard academies, an alliance between the whole of the feminist movement, and the male NPCs of martial classes, et cetera.

3) The "different struggles" method. It's more about equal prestige than equal pay, the fights are often about things we don't even think of today (e.g. more female priesthoods), and the push is more about rebalancing gender roles than abolishing them all together. So, for instance, you might look at societies like the Iroquois, Mosuo, or perhaps the Cathars and say, "People are fighting to make society look like this." You might at one time fight for a noblewoman's right to have absolute control over her son's arranged marriage, or another woman's right to exercise her spiritual power as head of her family and make sacrifices at the temple to Red Knight.

I think all are good options, but which one you're going with will really determine what suggestions are workable. I get the feeling that you're going with either option 1 or 2, but who knows.

[Coidzor]

I think it'd make for a bit starker of a game that leads to actually questioning the world and character interaction rather than simple "the men wearing phallic hats are the bad guys" style gameplay.

Sure, but no one's actually going to do that because this is a group that wants to have a joke campaign where they fight gamergaters wearing **** hats that don't do anything other than be used in **** waving contests over who has the biggest **** hat.

[rollingForInit]

If you want a feminist campaign set in a world of sexism, make sure you don't fall into the old tropes. There might be patriarchy, but make sure women aren't the only victims. Don't do the typical "damsel in distress" or similar tropes. Don't make a show of how many women are poor, abused prostitutes. Those things might happen, but if you want your campaign to be feminist, portray women as actual women, not victims (even if they have been victims of stuff, don't reduce their characters to that). Have strong, important NPC's be women, and let them be fleshed out characters. Have female NPC's that break away from the gender roles. Have female characters with agency over the story. Read up on what feminist bloggers write about women in games, and avoid those pitfalls.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Sure, but no one's actually going to do that because this is a group that wants to have a joke campaign where they fight gamergaters wearing **** hats that don't do anything other than be used in **** waving contests over who has the biggest **** hat.

And there's a place for that. I mean, you gotta vent your frustration at those gamergate morons somewhere.

Edit: yeah, now I'm playing with fire too. I'm honestly surprised this thread hasn't been swamped with trolls already.

[Kruploy]

Wow. Really?

I didn't think discrimination was allowed in these forums but I guess some people will find ways to get away with anything.

Congratulations.

[KorvinStarmast]

Sexism is basically unheard of in the games my group usually plays. I want to try something different, where sexism is prominent in the society of the setting, but not in my DMing.
It's a fine line to walk if you want any kind of realism. If you are going for farce, it could be a heck of a lot of fun.

The PCs don't have to be all female, but I have a feeling they all will anyway; maybe with a few nonbinary characters. Up to them.
Look at your OP. The prison will be segregated in a patriarchy. Think about it. If they meet in a prison, it is either in a men's prison, or a women's prison.

I'm considering having an NPC travel with the party, primarily to prompt roleplaying conversations. He would be male, from a distant matriarchal civilization, and consider combat outside his gender role.
GMPC: are you sure you want that? In a lot of ways it's a trap.

This token male may have already broken your model ... then again ... a non-conformists might be the only way to get an empathetic/sympathetic character into the game due to your caricature description of the patriarchy.
He'd be trying to get back to his homeland, but have an abysmal sense of direction and an allergy to maps. I note your trope of "man won't ask for directions," clumsily applied.

Here's an idea for how to start: They are in prison, and meet at the ritual bra burning held after dinner to "celebrate" a new prisoner arriving. (Or some sort of hazing ritual for a new inmate arriving into general population).

That's at least an anchor to feminism as a counter culture, and a form of revolt against the constraints of limited gender roles.

Bests wishes and have fun.

(PS, you have to forbid the Mending cantrip to your PCs, or your campaign is a fail from word one. :smallbiggrin: )

[Regitnui]

Wow. Really?

I didn't think discrimination was allowed in these forums but I guess some people will find ways to get away with anything.

Congratulations.

This isn't discrimination by any sense of the word. It's just someone asking for help with their home game where sexism is a major theme.

Personally, though, I have no clue how to help. My main NPC is a female pirate leading a counter-conqueror unification against the current High Prince. No subtle feminism there, no sir.

[Nifft]

- All armor is either effective (and fits men), or ineffective ("boob plate", "bikini chain").

- Magic items provide sexist, male-oriented benefits: a Bedroll of Comfort which summons a Nymph, for example.

- Invisible Servants have boobs and giggle cutely when you smack them on the ass. (This is difficult to achieve because they're invisible.)

... bah, all I got is comedy.

[HerbertWest]

Wow. Really?

I didn't think discrimination was allowed in these forums but I guess some people will find ways to get away with anything.

Congratulations.

I also do not see how asking for some ideas for a facetious campaign setting that involves feminism is discrimination. It is a game setting that I imagine is being conjured for players to have fun in a non-conventional D&D setting.

Should you find that discriminatory, I would suggest looking into the definitions of what exactly discrimination is. These forums don't need to turn into Tumblr, for the love of all that is good, where people are attacking people and getting butthurt over the tiniest little thing.

[KorvinStarmast]

- All armor is either effective (and fits men), or ineffective ("boob plate", "bikini chain"). In order to remain up to date, some reference to mithril thongs would need to be included in the Froderick's of Waterdeep catalogue ... :smallyuk:

[1Forge]

The ideas sounds great as long as it doesn't demonize anyone. Maybe you could add some minor characters who arnt sexist and provide small favors to the party at risk of themselves. (ex: Maybe they are escaping a city and a guard who knows them gives them a way out ad stalls for them) also it would be cool if one of the players had a disguise skill and they used it to bluff guards and such.

Historically many monk-ish places trained men and women equally (in fact women used a special martial art only they knew) it could be interesting if they learned some technique through that. Also in some historical cities women were trained to defent the city I anything came in (they defended the streets) so maybe one player could have a background like that but was enslaved to this new country.

Theres a we comic called nahast and the land of fate that depicts women in a fantasy army thing you might like it.

Also if you have heavily armoired characters note that male armour us indistinguishable from female armour more often then not in history, so that could make interesting bluff checks occasionally.

Its a cool setting that gives political strife and alienates the party very well, but dont go overboard there were many men who were fair with women historically, we just hear the extreme cases of prejudice.

Also as a dm I usually throw my players for a loop ocassionally, for example there was some elvish racism towards humans and a human in our party treated an elf poorly because of those centuries of dispute, little did he know he was talking to a half elf that grew up in the human capital. It was a funny plot twist.

[Temperjoke]

In order to remain up to date, some reference to mithril thongs would need to be included in the Froderick's of Waterdeep catalogue ... :smallyuk:

*hides the catalogue*

Silly thing just keeps arriving in the mail, I have no idea how I got on their list. *coughs* :smallamused:

[1Forge]

Also historically feminists drew attention to their movement by allying with leaders of other movements and politicians, you could do the same; maybe the prince has a crippled brother who sympathises with people who are inhibited, or maybe the queen has the kings ear and begins to sway him in support of your movement.

If you dont want to go that rout you could have some sort of crisis sweep the land that they defeat, that would gain them noteriety and give attention and support to their views.

[Sigreid]

All I have for you is make sure your party is down for it. I play for some good, healthy escapism through fighting monsters and being a classic hero or a villain with the power to do as I please and don't really want my game time to be about real world issues, as an example. If that's what your group is into, then great!

[CNagy]

Well, first and foremost any sort of discrimination is about power: so any forms of discrimination should grow from the idea of limiting power in a certain group--in this case women. So what are the various types of power? In D&D, it'd be martial, magical, and financial.

Limitations on the martial might of women might be as passive as "all armor is built to fit men and armorers won't sell to women unless they are buying for their husbands" or as active as "women are forbidden to wear armor." Ditto weapons. It could mean that women are not accepted as students in martial academies or that they are, again, forbidden to receive such training.

Magic is much the same; if the restrictions on women are not absolute (i.e. it is forbidden to teach a woman magic), then you'll have women who may learn to use magic but their progression in both skill and social status would be capped. A female magician might only receive instruction enough to facilitate a career as a brewer of potions, or just enough to act as a tutor to young students--but they will have a Master and he will be a he. With religion, you'd end up with a nun-like position; a maiden of X, whose duty is to heal and care for the sick. Church hierarchy would have any position of consequence staffed by a male.

Financial limitations are exactly what they sound like and range from women essentially belonging to their fathers and then to their husbands (strict limitations) to achieving some financial independence through death of family or spouse. If it is less strict than that, it could be that women are restricted from entering mercantilism, or cultural-but-not-legal discrimination of women not being able to get banks to lease them property, sell to them, etc.

Since you're saying it is excessively patriarchal and corrupt, I'm guessing it would be closer to the strict forbiddance in the aforementioned spheres of power. If it is a serious campaign, I would shelve the utter morons bit and focus on people acting on a certain set of beliefs, and trying to maintain a status quo. In a serious campaign where the opponents aren't cartoonish, you get the chance to explore more subtle forms of revolution. Perhaps the lady fighter is the daughter of a master at the warrior academy, who broke the taboo on teaching warfare to women by teaching her in secret. Perhaps the wizard found as her master a hedge-witch living deep in the forests as a hermit, and from her learned magics far beyond what it would otherwise be legal to learn. Perhaps the rogue went abroad and amassed a decent-sized business as a merchant, using the lure of profit to get male merchants to do business with her against their own beliefs and the law. It doesn't all need to be lightning bolts blowing up the dam of gender oppression; a few well-placed cracks, here and there, can make even a moderate blow bring the whole structure down.

Or just go less serious, more postal, and kill em all. In the end, it's whatever you guys find to be fun.

[Raphite1]

Seems a bit too heavy-handed for an entire campaign to me, and would work better as a theme for just one particular NPC. Players could easily get tired of it.

IMO a "feminist" campaign would be one where the story and broader setting fit the Bechdel test or something similar, instead of having straw-men bad guys or institutions that stereotype misogyny. Otherwise, it may seem like you're constantly forcing an obvious theme, like in an early Star Trek episode.

[1Forge]

Quick note about armour guys... Historically "male" armour worked equally well for women as long as it fit. Its not like in TV were the female armour is distinct because it forms around any specific attributes.

This link shows alot about historically women in war.
http://io9.com/what-kind-of-armor-did-medieval-women-really-wear-1502779338

Also heres a picture of Joan of ark in plate:
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--7Z1jumrw--/19cqphvl5l5nmpng.png

and this is a pic of some modern reinactment armour.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/e3/ff/ce/e3ffcee45a6aeadccf86acca2d63c9b3.jpg

Also its noted in history that people could rarely tell the difference from a woman in full plate and a man. So if you want to limit the martial capabilities then you have to make it socially different to train your women to fight (though many places historically were trained in basic self defense and in some places their own unique martial art)

Hope that helped :)

[Raphite1]

... Its not like in TV were the female armour is distinct because it forms around any specific attributes ...

That's the longest spelling of "boobs" that I've ever seen.

[Temperjoke]

Quick note about armour guys... Historically "male" armour worked equally well for women as long as it fit. Its not like in TV were the female armour is distinct because it forms around any specific attributes.

This link shows alot about historically women in war.
http://io9.com/what-kind-of-armor-did-medieval-women-really-wear-1502779338

Also heres a picture of Joan of ark in plate:
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--7Z1jumrw--/19cqphvl5l5nmpng.png

and this is a pic of some modern reinactment armour.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/e3/ff/ce/e3ffcee45a6aeadccf86acca2d63c9b3.jpg

Also its noted in history that people could rarely tell the difference from a woman in full plate and a man. So if you want to limit the martial capabilities then you have to make it socially different to train your women to fight (though many places historically were trained in basic self defense and in some places their own unique martial art)

Hope that helped :)

Yes, historically, that is true, however, we're talking about a stereotypical patriarchy, and taken to it's media fantasy extreme, women are required to have 2/3 of their body exposed. The rules aren't specific as to how it's shown, whether it's chain mail bikinis, or "strategically damaged" armor.

[1Forge]

Yes, historically, that is true, however, we're talking about a stereotypical patriarchy, and taken to it's media fantasy extreme, women are required to have 2/3 of their body exposed. The rules aren't specific as to how it's shown, whether it's chain mail bikinis, or "strategically damaged" armor.

I had the odd thought that the game was about fighting such steryotypes...also those armour ideas are a modern idea after all why make clanky heavy and hot armour that's useless when you can wear cloth casually and armour when you actually need the defense...also I thought that in this setting women wernt allowed to wear armour, so steryotipical fantasy "armour" wouldn't exist anyway...

[Temperjoke]

I had the odd thought that the game was about fighting such steryotypes...also those armour ideas are a modern idea after all why make clanky heavy and hot armour that's useless when you can wear cloth casually and armour when you actually need the defense...also I thought that in this setting women wernt allowed to wear armour, so steryotipical fantasy "armour" wouldn't exist anyway...

Oh well, yeah, the good guys are going to use the proper armor, I was talking about the background setting. And bikini armor isn't actually armor, it's more decoration. :P

[Nifft]

And bikini armor isn't actually armor, it's more decoration. :P

"Decorations wearing decorations. It's perfect." -- Sexist NPC

[Temperjoke]

"Decorations wearing decorations. It's perfect." -- Sexist NPC

What else would women forced to wrestle in the coliseum mud pits wear?

[Figgin of Chaos]

I might not reply to all of these suggestions, but be assured I've read all of them and will continue to do so.

I have a few more ideas about the setting:

The real-world civilizations it will be most similar to are ancient Rome and Greece.

The closer you get to the center of the empire, the stronger the patriarchy is. So while the outlying areas will have more subtle examples of sexism in their laws and customs, the Capitol will treat women as property.

I'll probably eschew the Tolkien-based D&D races for different ones, such as Genasi (elemental people) and animal people.

[1Forge]

To offer more help it would be nice if we knew the number of players, their classes, and possibly some lore. Then we would know possible story and plot suggestions. Also if your leaning Greek note that bronze was common but iron was superior, also shortswords were the most common weapon aside from the spear.

[Sigreid]

It occurs to me that if you want the extreme, read a Gor book. The whole premise of the author is that women want to be dominated and used by men. It can give a very clear image of a society where women are treated pretty much like toys or pets.

[Demonic Spoon]

No need to go into psionics or magical mind control.

Just look at society in the Western World, specifically, in the past 1,500 years.

The Patriarchy isn't a shadow government of misogynists, it's social customs and ideas that are pervasive through society and harmful to women. It's hidden in the open, so simple, common, and thorough that it becomes invisible.

Just like Racism.

If you throw it knto an extreme and comical version of itself, over the top and mystical and mechanical functions rather than just the way people are raised, you risk negating the impact and insight into our own reality.


Half the point of fantasy is that it can say interesting things about the real world through the lens of fantastical elements. It seems neither very fun fun nor interesting to use D&D to tell a perfectly realistic story about perfectly true-to-life sexists except with a few trolls and ogres in the backdrop. At that point it would be better to use a more "realistic" RPG I think.

[KorvinStarmast]

What else would women forced to wrestle in the coliseum mud pits wear?
Nothing, mostly (https://europasicewolf.wordpress.com/2012/05/06/female-roman-gladiators-stand-victorious/).

As a point of reference, in Ancient Greece during the Olympic games, and in some Roman competitions, athletes in foot races were naked. (I have not done enough research to determine if that is closer to fact or myth). but some art and pottery (http://www.ablogabouthistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Untitled-11.jpg) lend credence to that idea that some competitions were sans uniforms of any sort ... though some art suggests that the women wore something like a bikini (https://europasicewolf.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/clip_image006.png)).

[Steampunkette]

http://gallery.kg4cyx.net/var/albums/Macros-and-such/cat%20-%20i%20love%20this%20thread%20so%20much-2.jpg?m=1307639941

I want to thank everyone who posted in this thread for not dragging this thread into flamewars. You folks rock socks. :D

On the topic of allegorical discrimination: It definitely exists in RPGs and can be acted out in a -massive- variety of ways. Whether you're using Classism, directly, or slotting in a mage-hating society to create an allegory for sexism, racism, homophobia, or other widespread bias. By using zombies, orcs, or rampaging trolls you can create nationalistic or directly political discrimination with the archetypal other. There's a lot of ways to do it.

For Satirical Discrimination maybe look into political and sociological directives. If you've got Rome with a strong sexist bias in the city and a weaker sexist bias in the countryside, look to the situations involved to determine how to handle the disparity.

Perhaps in the countryside there's few enough people and enough monsters that limiting women's actions is a dangerous course of action. That will have to lead to a very different form of sexism, however, since much of the idea behind sexism in reality is that women are weak/defenseless/precious/must be protected. You could expand on that difference toward the city and create a world in which women aren't treated as precious, but instead as completely disposable and interchangeable.

Where the life of a woman isn't considered to have value beyond the children/pleasure/services she provides. That would skew abuses in the city against women more toward the violent side of things rather than emotional or social abuses, however, and could lead to problems for the women in the adventuring party when they run into the city guard, regardless of whether the guards know they're feminists.

It also creates a more visceral and combat-ready D&D-supported form of sexism, with the attendant violence and immediacy that 5e's mechanics focus on.

[Soular]

So you wanna run a feminist campaign?


Old-school feminism would dictate that the game pretty much be exactly as it is, with a few minor caveats. Female armor would look exactly like male armor, female fighters would all use Charisma as a dump stat (like their male counterparts), and there would be an equal amount of damsels in distress as handsome young men.


Feminism is already ingrained into our society, and by extension D&D.



My wife has only played once, and she chose a fully armored female, elven warrior. In every imaginable way, her character was indistinguishable from a male character other than the fact that she used a different restroom in town. In fact, NPCs couldn't tell her gender until she raised her visor. Everything became split almost down the middle; bad guys, good guys, characters that helped us, characters that needed our help, all were both male and female. If that isn't proof of feminism in action, nothing is.



EDIT

Dammit 'punkette. You made me edit all the mean things I said about modern feminism. I left all the positive stuff about old-school feminism. I am a proponent of feminism, but not the mess that "modern" feminism has made of it in recent decades.

[GPuzzle]

IMO a "feminist" campaign would be one where the story and broader setting fit the Bechdel test

Funnily enough, there are several examples of the Bechdel test actively failing in works that are considered "empowering for women" and several examples of the Bechdel test actively failing in works that are considered "degrading for women".

To be fair, if you want a feminist game (and I'm talking old-school feminist here, there's quite a bunch of information out there spread by new wave feminists that with a little use of statistics it all starts to break when you start to examine it), I'm going to go with Soular here and say that just having female heroes going out there and doing stuff (hell, maybe even in both senses if you feel like it) without any frills whatsoever makes it possibly as feminist as you can get because it removes all from gender and focus more on individuals and maybe just the small group at the company (which really should be the focus of pretty much everyone but people like associating themselves and others with groups so the full-on focus on individuals is really only fully possible in utopias but I digress).

And that's really the ultimate "screw you" to overall gender conventions you can have since now gender doesn't matter anymore.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Feminism is already ingrained into our society, and by extension D&D.

In my experience, the force feminism is stronger in D&D than real life. D&D assumes equality as its starting point, after all.

What is why the OP's question is kind of weird. It's like they want to run a light-hearted campaign where the villain is a moustache-twirling misogynist... hopefully our thought shower can help temper that and produce a decent story at the end of the day.

[Nifft]

Perhaps in the countryside there's few enough people and enough monsters that limiting women's actions is a dangerous course of action. That will have to lead to a very different form of sexism, however, since much of the idea behind sexism in reality is that women are weak/defenseless/precious/must be protected. You could expand on that difference toward the city and create a world in which women aren't treated as precious, but instead as completely disposable and interchangeable.

Where the life of a woman isn't considered to have value beyond the children/pleasure/services she provides. That would skew abuses in the city against women more toward the violent side of things rather than emotional or social abuses, however, and could lead to problems for the women in the adventuring party when they run into the city guard, regardless of whether the guards know they're feminists.

It also creates a more visceral and combat-ready D&D-supported form of sexism, with the attendant violence and immediacy that 5e's mechanics focus on.

Yeah there's two ways to go with this:

- The Monsters want our women! (The classic Nationalist / Identity Political method to leverage sexism by "protecting" women.) Basically, say that human women are a necessary ingredient for some monstrous species life-cycle. Maybe there are no female goblinoids, and hobgoblins & bugbears use captured humanoid females for breeding, or something similarly horrific.

- Monster girls are teh hotness! (The "disposable" women trope.) Basically, male adventurers get perks like meeting Dryads, Nymphs, Sirines, Sylphs, and all the other nubile daughters of Mother Nature. It's not that female adventurers don't exist -- it's just that they don't tend to be quite as motivated to explore and conquer the wilds, so to speak. (Except those few % who are.)

[Demonic Spoon]

My wife has only played once, and she chose a fully armored female, elven warrior. In every imaginable way, her character was indistinguishable from a male character other than the fact that she used a different restroom in town. In fact, NPCs couldn't tell her gender until she raised her visor. Everything became split almost down the middle; bad guys, good guys, characters that helped us, characters that needed our help, all were both male and female. If that isn't proof of feminism in action, nothing is.

...


In my experience, the force feminism is stronger in D&D than real life. D&D assumes equality as its starting point, after all.

What is why the OP's question is kind of weird. It's like they want to run a light-hearted campaign where the villain is a moustache-twirling misogynist... hopefully our thought shower can help temper that and produce a decent story at the end of the day.



That's not the point, though - you're confusing sexism in the system with sexism in the story. I'm guessing that the OP isn't doing this because they think that D&D is sexist and they need to push the bounds of gender equality in D&D. They're doing it because D&D is a mechanism to tell stories, and the kind of story to be told can vary widely by the tastes of the players.

Sometimes you may want a story about political intrigue.

Sometimes you may want a story about a demon army taking over the material plane

And sometimes - like this case - you may want to tell a story about an uprising against a fantasy patriarchal society.


Your objection is like saying that it doesn't make sense to play a D&D game about demons invading the material plane because you have played in many D&D games where the material plane was just fine and you could adventure in peace without fighting any balors. It's not the point.

[1Forge]

Back on the point...so what else do you need help on? Plot ideas, encounters, opinions?

[Ninja_Prawn]

Your objection is like saying that it doesn't make sense to play a D&D game about demons invading the material plane because you have played in many D&D games where the material plane was just fine and you could adventure in peace without fighting any balors. It's not the point.

My objection is that it's trite and unimaginative - which could also be a problem with the 'demon invasion' plot, to be honest. That's why I was talking earlier about building a new setting from the ground up, because that could help to make the 'feminist uprising' plot more interesting.

[KorvinStarmast]

IMO a "feminist" campaign would be one where the story and broader setting fit the Bechdel test I just noticed what you did there.
Sneaky. :smallwink:

Glad to see this thread is not in flame war mode, congrats to all in it! (Two thumbs up!)

[Nifft]

My objection is that it's trite and unimaginative - which could also be a problem with the 'demon invasion' plot, to be honest. That's why I was talking earlier about building a new setting from the ground up, because that could help to make the 'feminist uprising' plot more interesting.

Okay, so I think what you want is a setting in which being a female adventurer is both:
- Uncommon; and
- Advantaged.

I think I got it.

Start off with Monster Girls Are Teh Hotness! - alien masterminds are disproportionately female (hags, fey, succubi, etc.) and adventurers are overwhelmingly male.

It turns out this is a plot on the part of the invaders -- the hags, the fey, and the demons, who are all in fact on the same side -- to create a society dominated by men, because human men are easier for the enemy to subvert.

Now their plans are coming to fruition, and the invasion is about to begin in earnest, and it all begins with the abduction of the only authority who could resist their wiles: the new Empress.

Are you a bad enough chick to rescue the Empress?

[Ninja_Prawn]

Glad to see this thread is not in flame war mode, congrats to all in it! (Two thumbs up!)

http://iambrony.steeph.tp-radio.de/mlp/gif/6332801225698766319406.gif

[GPuzzle]

After the comment about Gamergate I genuinely think you're trying to bait a flame war in here.

[Figgin of Chaos]

I'm aware that a setting where people of different genders have equal status could also be considered a feminist campaign. The rest of my group's campaigns already fit that description. The players are about an even mix of men, women, and nonbinary people. The men often play adventurers who happen to be female.

[MinotaurWarrior]

I might not reply to all of these suggestions, but be assured I've read all of them and will continue to do so.

I have a few more ideas about the setting:

The real-world civilizations it will be most similar to are ancient Rome and Greece.

The closer you get to the center of the empire, the stronger the patriarchy is. So while the outlying areas will have more subtle examples of sexism in their laws and customs, the Capitol will treat women as property.

I'll probably eschew the Tolkien-based D&D races for different ones, such as Genasi (elemental people) and animal people.

Read table four of the twelve tables of Roman law below (on phone, can't link)

http://www.constitution.org/sps/sps01_1.htm

Roman patriarchs owned their families in a way that was more absolute than slavery. This extended not just to the women, but to the men as well. Sons were numbered - daughters were not given names of any kind.

Now, in real life, stating that in absolutes is fairly inappropriate. It's like if I told a medieval person all of our laws on jaywalking and forgot to mention enforcement levels. But in a fantasy land...

I'd have the PCs be from a conquered, fairly egalitarian society. Maybe rip the story of the iceni and say that the old king sued for peace, but the patriarchy didn't honor the agreement to allow his female heir to inherit the throne, and so now imperial forces are occupying the land and and oppressing it's people to suppress revolts. You can get really awful without being over the top - punitive rape was a thing the Romans did, so anything you feel comfortable portraying as DM will probably be fitting. A centurion forcing strong female warriors (or genius female engineers, or thrifty female land managers...) to work in his kitchen and laundry? An edict from the local military governor that all women must wear frilly clothing at all times? Anything will work.

The inability of the Imperial Government to recognize the PCs as people should be a blessing and a curse. If they get arrested, the records might just say "five women" and when they escape, the government will have no way to inform law enforcement of who they are.

The multi-ethnic nature of an ancient empire is a good tool to explore different forms of sexism - maybe the ratfolk place women on a pedestal, the tengu suppress female sexual it, and the flamekin assume that women can't control their lust and emotions, for example. Perhaps the central government's attitude says something about what you think the central issue of misogyny is - e.g. If you think ignorance is the core of misogyny, maybe they keep women in veils in harems, and the men are cartoonishly misinformed about female anatomy. If you think the core issue is that men try to force real women to adhere to simplistic ideals based on male desire, maybe the elite (magocracy?) don't have human wives, but instead have bound succubi or nymphs.

Just some more ideas.

[Alberic Strein]

After the comment about Gamergate I genuinely think you're trying to bait a flame war in here.

Look, do me a solid and don't pull the pin on that grenade, okay? I get it, we get it, let's not talk about it.

[Soular]

After the comment about Gamergate I genuinely think you're trying to bait a flame war in here.

Yeah, that one lit me up. My post was right after the kitten with the ball of yarn, and I couldn't take my nerdrage to over 9000 right after a kitten pic.

So I went back and removed all the vitriol.

[Alikat]

Sounds a little wish-fulfillment-y, though I guess that's a perfectly good reason to play RPGs.

This campaign sounds like the opposite of wish fulfillment to me lol. Some times I just want to be the busty barbarian babe in a buckskin bikini. Overthrow the patriarchy? That sounds like a lot of work. :smalleek: Can't I just slay some monsters and ho my way through the chieftan's five sons? Seeking gender equality is too much real life in my D&D.


Firstly, all the PC's should be female. They should all then meet the Prince. Each of the PC's should then go on a date with the Prince. Afterwards, the Prince lines all the PC's up and gives a rose to whomever of the PC's he'd like to have a second date with. Eventually, he'll only have one rose to give out, and that lucky PC will become the Princess.

You should also restrict them to choosing Tool Proficiencies in Ironing, Baking, Cooking & Cleaning and not allow them to have a Strength above 12, and a Charisma below 16. Extra points for a high Dexterity score.

Amazingly, I have a friend I tried to get to join my D&D group unsuccessfully who might actually go for it if I told her the campaign was 'The Bachelor' themed.. :smallconfused:

[ChelseaNH]

There are many people who want to change the society they live in.

But does everyone want to make the same changes? You have patriarchy, capitalism and tyranny. There are plenty of people who are fine with 1 or 2 out of 3. So that seems like an interesting dimension to explore.

When women are segregated from men, they have the space to create their own culture. So what's that culture? What knowledge and skills do women pass down to their daughters?

The Protestant Reformation promoted literacy among women, because women could then teach their children how to read (the Bible was the expectation, but reading works on all sorts of books...) So how does child-rearing work? When are boy children separated from girl children or from their mothers? Are mothers responsible for any teaching of boys?


If they meet in a prison, it is either in a men's prison, or a women's prison.

Prisons use trustees for certain types of work; some jobs might be segregated by gender, which would lead to male prisoners in a female prison or vice versa.

[KorvinStarmast]

Look, do me a solid and don't pull the pin on that grenade, okay? I get it, we get it, let's not talk about it. Optionally, one could advise the OP to read all of the Darkover novels (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darkover_series)to prep the background for the desired story line.

[Alberic Strein]

Optionally, one could advise the OP to read all of the Darkover novels (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darkover_series)to prep the background for the desired story line.

I was referring to the talking about gamergate, not to the advice on how to put feminism in a D&D story. A lot of thing has already been said, keep it coming, the OP sure seems to be reading it all.

[Warwick]

This campaign sounds like the opposite of wish fulfillment to me lol.

There's more than one kind of wish fulfillment. A campaign in which you are opposed to inept and obviously villainous caricatures of things you despise and whose ideas/values are easily dispatched by punching them in the face a lot (as opposed to being entrenched social forces) is more about moral validation than a personal power fantasy, but I don't think it's wrong to call it wish fulfillment. Nothing wrong with that, but it's quite different than if you want to take a more 'realistic' tack.

On a different note, the OP vaguely reminds of the premise for Bitch Planet (can't speak to the content).

[AbyssStalker]

Sure, but no one's actually going to do that because this is a group that wants to have a joke campaign where they fight gamergaters wearing **** hats that don't do anything other than be used in **** waving contests over who has the biggest **** hat.

This is my favorite comment in the thread, and I don't think will be able to help myself from snatching this idea for the goof adventure our group has going, although I have but one inquiry...

How do the squires feel about having to clean and maintain **** hats?

I love this forum though, I went into this expecting to see pyromaniacs running left and right. But thankfully it seems that the lands are at a wonderful, non-flammable peace.

[Sigreid]

Look at your OP. The prison will be segregated in a patriarchy. Think about it. If they meet in a prison, it is either in a men's prison, or a women's prison.



Not necessarily. The culture may not give a crap about criminal women and figure tossing them in with the male prisoners will help keep the male criminals pacified. There are some countries now (learned about on Locked up Abroad) that just toss everyone in the same walled structure and drop in food once in a while and as long as they're inside the walls, whatever the prisoners do to each other is fine.

[KorvinStarmast]

There are some countries now (learned about on Locked up Abroad) that just toss everyone in the same walled structure and drop in food once in a while and as long as they're inside the walls, whatever the prisoners do to each other is fine. OK, thanks, one learns something new every day.


@Alberic Strein

I was referring to the talking about gamergate Well, my browser didn't show the "reply" button so I had to reply to a post, and I picked yours. Glad to see the ggate stuff removed. That noise we don't need in this discussion.

[Janus]

A centurion forcing strong female warriors (or genius female engineers, or thrifty female land managers...) to work in his kitchen and laundry? An edict from the local military governor that all women must wear frilly clothing at all times? Anything will work.

SERVANT: My liege!
EVIL GUY: Ah, servant! Is my 1st level fighter concubine ready for her initiation?
SERVANT: :smalleek: She refuses to wear her harem veils and roller skates!
EVIL GUY: :smallfurious: *hurls a phallic javelin through the servant's throat*


How do the squires feel about having to clean and maintain **** hats?
Honored and dreaming of the day when they have their very own **** hat, the likes of which the land has never before seen.

[1Forge]

You could have them escape through the kitchen...no really maybe female prisoners "cook the food" and clean the prison and such, then when in the kitchen they grab some cooking knives and escape past the lax security on them. Maybe the warden thought theyd be "easy" enough to hold in line that he only left one guard while the men rioted, your party then easily wipes out any frail defense left and escape with some basic guard items (gambesons or chain shirts, short swords and long, maybe a bow, and food) and if anyone in your game plays a guy just say they're a male prisoner or a guard that surrendered.

That would also buy your players time to level up because the prison might not pursue or document such an "embarrassing" lapse in security.

[ArcanaFire]

Maybe the prison is /called/ The Kitchen because it's hot enough to bake in there and the guards are fire genasi that will make for a challenging encounter for the party to overcome so they actually have something to brag about later.

[Alikat]

Maybe the prison is /called/ The Kitchen because it's hot enough to bake in there and the guards are fire genasi that will make for a challenging encounter for the party to overcome so they actually have something to brag about later.

Fictional Misogyny Marshall: "Let's get those women *puts sunglasses on* back in the kitchen."

[Weimann]

If you want a feminist campaign set in a world of sexism, make sure you don't fall into the old tropes. There might be patriarchy, but make sure women aren't the only victims. Don't do the typical "damsel in distress" or similar tropes. Don't make a show of how many women are poor, abused prostitutes. Those things might happen, but if you want your campaign to be feminist, portray women as actual women, not victims (even if they have been victims of stuff, don't reduce their characters to that). Have strong, important NPC's be women, and let them be fleshed out characters. Have female NPC's that break away from the gender roles. Have female characters with agency over the story. Read up on what feminist bloggers write about women in games, and avoid those pitfalls.This is essentially correct. Misogyny is fundamentally about stereotypes: attributing sweeping, generalised characteristics to women and not seeing their personal nuances as actual people. The more complex you can make your characters, the more progressive will they be. That's pretty hard, I'll admit, but it will probably give the best result.

Also remember that men, while traditionally the ones to benefit more from the patriarchy, are also trapped in it. There are stereotypical male roles as well, and those that don't fit into them. Likewise, there will be women who support the system, consciously or not. Really, the key is to not stereotype.

(I mean, you will have to stereotype a bit, since you are creating characters, not real, living people. But that comes the with territory. Just do your best, and good luck with your endeavour. :smallsmile:)

[Temperjoke]

*sips some tea* Anyone get the feeling we're at the edge of a really steep slope? It's like looking down and trying to decide if you want to slide or roll down it?

[Janus]

I'd also add that there's nothing wrong with someone living up to a stereotype or archetype, so long as you have variety, and most importantly, make that archetypal character a person. Princess Leia may have been a damsel in distress at times, but she was written as a person with her own likes, dislikes, and personality quirks.


*sips some tea* Anyone get the feeling we're at the edge of a really steep slope? It's like looking down and trying to decide if you want to slide or roll down it?
We'll see. I just justified a damsel in distress who singlehandedly sparked many a nerd's interest in metal bikinis.

[ArcanaFire]

*sips some tea* Anyone get the feeling we're at the edge of a really steep slope? It's like looking down and trying to decide if you want to slide or roll down it?

Personally I'm just glad people keep choosing to be mature about this. It's like someone cast Miracle and sacrificed 5k experience to protect this thread from a natural disaster.

[Dimolyth]

I would suggest, if you will focus on the thematics, play with gray colors, rather than black & white only. For "feminism" theme I would certanly insert some strong female NPC, maybe even an organization of female NPC - who oppose ideas of sex egality.
It could be strong religion cult, for women only, who will be propoganding patriarchial community. Some stereotypical view that "a man is god`s creation, and woman is an application to him". So, you would have active antagonistic females, and therefore not "she is a girl NPC, of cause she`ll support us". Make this cult have vast influence on the women of Empire.
The other thought is to have some wild societies - where sex egality exist. Maybe have elves a small tribe race lurking in forests - something with anarchy (political anarchy, where proprety doesn`t exist) and individualism - so there is never a question about gender. Use this example for an argument of sexist commoners: "egality will make us wild thieves without honor, power and civilization".
Another thing to consider is making a matriarchal nemesis of patriarchal empire (well, drow?). Inside a ptriarchal empire you could see them as allies, but once you visit that nemesis homeland - you could find it is as terrible, as your homeland (maybe males are treated as goats - just for reproductive fonction - otherwise they are not a part of society at all).
Just be sure to have all nuances of gender discrimination as tools for describe societies in your campagn. But have the quests be mostly neutral - saving children of both gender, killing monsters and such - as for normal adventuring party duty - but when it comes for reactions of common people or local/global power - play your theme.

[Comet]

*sips some tea* Anyone get the feeling we're at the edge of a really steep slope? It's like looking down and trying to decide if you want to slide or roll down it?

If it helps to steer things in a different, but no less exciting, direction: I'm going to tell OP that he has chosen a bad game to use for this scenario in and is on his way to having bad fun.

A big part of deconstructing the patriarchy is about deconstructing the masculine narrative. Solving your problems by hitting them with phallic hurt-objects until they cease to exist is, like, among the most archetypically masculine things you can do. So, OP, you cannot achieve your dream of a feminist campaign as long as you are playing Dungeons & Dragons, the game of fighting your problems away. If you punch them they have already won!

[Angel Bob]

The best way to play a feminist campaign?

Play a normal D&D campaign. One in which women and men and variations thereupon can do whatever the heck their ability scores allow them to.

It's pretty simple.

[Dimolyth]

Also, play with some family stories. What would happend if a local aristocrat has only a daughter and no son? What would happened to a soft-heart old man, who released his female-slaves? How do a society would react? What do a poor teenager do, if he fall in love a wife of a richman? How many consorts is allowed to have? What are the relationships between a wife`s father and her husband? What is the difference in education level, and how inegality is concerned for children? Does a daughter of a count is more powerful than a son of baker?

You can copy some real-history facts, on how a sexist society is balanced, or you could invent your own system.

[AbyssStalker]

Also remember that men, while traditionally the ones to benefit more from the patriarchy, are also trapped in it. There are stereotypical male roles as well, and those that don't fit into them. Likewise, there will be women who support the system, consciously or not. Really, the key is to not stereotype.

This is an excellent point, I would just like to say that the OP should probably mention this to the players as well, could give them some wonderful RP opportunities.

[Coidzor]

I'm suddenly reminded of a bit from Monstrous Regiment by Terry Pratchett. An essential part of disguising one's self as a man is a pair of socks.

Actually you probably wanna read that book anyway given the premise. And maybe look into the Magdalenes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_asylum)of Ireland, which are referenced briefly in Monstrous Regiment, if you want to have some horror elements to such a campaign.


In order to remain up to date, some reference to mithril thongs would need to be included in the Froderick's of Waterdeep catalogue ... :smallyuk:

Well, you know, between Pratchettian micromail and the fact that humans in the real world already have thongs and g-strings that are partially constructed of metal, it's probably not that implausible...

Huh.


In my experience, the force feminism is stronger in D&D than real life. D&D assumes equality as its starting point, after all.

What is why the OP's question is kind of weird. It's like they want to run a light-hearted campaign where the villain is a moustache-twirling misogynist... hopefully our thought shower can help temper that and produce a decent story at the end of the day.

Hey now, joke campaigns are still campaigns, and a lot of fun can be had with them. :smallwink:

That's the majority of cases where you'll hear about anyone actually having used the book of erotic fantasy, after all.

Granted, that's partially because it's usually a bit of a faux pas to go into too much detail about one's sex RPing outside of more specific venues.


This is my favorite comment in the thread, and I don't think will be able to help myself from snatching this idea for the goof adventure our group has going, although I have but one inquiry...

How do the squires feel about having to clean and maintain **** hats?

I love this forum though, I went into this expecting to see pyromaniacs running left and right. But thankfully it seems that the lands are at a wonderful, non-flammable peace.

Snatch, snatch away. Silliness is infectious, after all. :smallamused:

I'm sure they practice by polishing truncheons religiously, waiting for the day that they have their own squires to service their **** hats in turn. The local orc analogs may or may not taunt them about it in between trying to kill and/or eat them.

And I'm sure that there's a few knightly orders that take things to such extremes that they've sworn off women completely, so there's some form of Greek wossname(pederasty?) going on there on the down low.


SERVANT: My liege!
EVIL GUY: Ah, servant! Is my 1st level fighter concubine ready for her initiation?
SERVANT: :smalleek: She refuses to wear her harem veils and roller skates!
EVIL GUY: :smallfurious: *hurls a phallic javelin through the servant's throat*

Whatever the novelty weapon designers are paid, it's not nearly enough.


Honored and dreaming of the day when they have their very own **** hat, the likes of which the land has never before seen.

I wanna be the very best, like no one ever was~

[Regitnui]

Does a daughter of a count is more powerful than a son of baker?

And, were said baker's son decide to have his way with the count's daughter, why would he be in trouble? For ruining the girl as a bargaining chip, or the trauma he put the girl through?

[Ogre Mage]

I actually would make sure that the sexist oppressive power structure includes some women. These women have bought into the regime and achieved a certain measure of power by policing other women and helping keep them in line. In return they are rewarded with more authority than most women and perhaps in some cases held up as "model" women. And then there will be some women who haven't learned to work the system but just accept that being oppressed is the natural order of things.

Other women will of course resist and reject the societal constraints and I would be sure to include some male NPCs among the "resisters" as well, who for their own reasons have grown uneasy with society's treatment of women. Of course since this is a sexist society the resisters will unfortunately be among the minority.

[ryan92084]

I'm not really sure how the plot wanted by the op is really any different then your standard oppressed/lower class people overthrow/fight the tyrannical government story. All the typical plot points still apply just replace lower class with female and decide if the patriarchy (generally)thinks they are just plain inferior or to be used as trophies. As usual there will be people on both sides that will help and people who will hinder.

[KorvinStarmast]

And, were said baker's son decide to have his way with the count's daughter, why would he be in trouble? For ruining the girl as a bargaining chip, or the trauma he put the girl through?

Or that he gave it to her so good that she ran away from home to be with him forever ... that would piss the dad off mightily. (Might piss of his folks too, since they risk having their bakery burned to the ground by soldiers of an angry count ... )

[Roderick_BR]

Something players need to remember is that many people and places will either agree with the goverment, or won't go against it out of fear, meaning that not everyone is trustable.

When walking the streets they need to hide their adventuring gear least some "conscious citizen" calls out the guard because he saw women carrying weapons and thinks that's dangerous, since the popular opinion is that women are too frail to carry weapons, thus gathering that unwanted attention.

The major plot point would be the local tyrants inforcing rules that keep women as 2nd class citizens, and players helping groups to influence local nobles to demand changes. The tyrants won't like it, and start a subtle war against the players.

All in all, it's a "change the system" kind of game, with female characters being the underdogs.

[Regitnui]

Or that he gave it to her so good that she ran away from home to be with him forever ... that would piss the dad off mightily. (Might piss of his folks too, since they risk having their bakery burned to the ground by soldiers of an angry count ... )

That's one of the classic plots;hired to rescue someone, the PCs find their target doesn't want to be rescued. What do you do?

[KorvinStarmast]

That's one of the classic plots;hired to rescue someone, the PCs find their target doesn't want to be rescued. What do you do? Before I answer that, how big is the party, who is in it, and what are they like? The answers are all over the map, which I think is why that is so much fun! :smallbiggrin:

[AbyssStalker]

That's one of the classic plots;hired to rescue someone, the PCs find their target doesn't want to be rescued. What do you do?

Ah, Stockholm Syndrome, don't worry, I've dealt with this before, just kidnap the original kidnapper, and then say you will kill him/her/it if they don't return.

And everybody lived happily ever after.

[bloodshed343]

I suggest including something similar to the 4e iteration of vistani. Partly because it's a different take on sexism and partly because it will give the party a safe, neutral faction.

Key components of the vistani in 4e that are relevant here:

-clear separation of gender roles. The vistani have both a matriarch and a patriarch who are not necessarily related. Women have authority in spiritual matters (this could include arranging marriages without male consent) and men have authority in business matters (this could be as extreme as not allowing women to own property). Everyone is repressed!

-nomadic. Their culture isn't influenced by the Patriarchy of the city and they can turn up wherever they need to for plot convenience.

[endur]

Read table four of the twelve tables of Roman law below (on phone, can't link)

http://www.constitution.org/sps/sps01_1.htm

Roman patriarchs owned their families in a way that was more absolute than slavery. This extended not just to the women, but to the men as well. Sons were numbered - daughters were not given names of any kind.

Now, in real life, stating that in absolutes is fairly inappropriate. It's like if I told a medieval person all of our laws on jaywalking and forgot to mention enforcement levels. But in a fantasy land...


For a setting, you could make your own, or you could adopt one of the existing settings. Rome above would work well.-- the players undoubtedly know a lot about Rome, but may not have realized how extreme the patriarch's powers are. An alternative might be Dark Sun or another setting that is heavy on slave ownership (Dark Sun itself is loosely based on Rome).

[Capac Amaru]

Have you done any research into cultures that enforced jail time for things such as 'woman holding sword' as a reference?

Also utter morons very rarely hold power ( George Bush and Tony Abbott being possible exceptions ).

It sounds like instead of choosing a setting because of its potential for interesting narratives, you've just picked a target rich environment for a particular bent of murderhobos.

[Kajorma]

Okay,
First off I'll admit that I ran out of time and only read through the first page. But I wanted to comment all the same. :P

So, it was pointed out by steam that sexism is usually subtle, and the problems are not always easy to identify. I'd like to add to that with the solutions being more difficult too.
Say you have an NPC woman who wants to have a traditional role within her society. Face the PCs with the choice of pushing her into what they view as a better state of being, or allowing her to make choices for herself.

Also, being a history nerd, I feel the need to drop a link to the most badass viking woman of all time:
http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/SigridStorrada.shtml
Maybe you can find inspiration in her story.
(For those who don't know, Viking women didn't actually fight like they do in our movies, but they held a much higher place in Viking society than they would have in any contemporary cultures)

[goto124]

I suppose, if I were to offer advice, it would be to be as subtle as possible. Don't make the antagonists cartoonishly evil straw-patriarchs. It'll be more interesting and more rewarding.

I have a problem with this. What if a player realises a misgynist villain has a point/isn't that wrong after all? What do I do to justify portraying him as evil? I'm not remotely a good writer, or story-teller who knows how to play off nuances!

I realise that I shouldn't be afraid to have characters that are morally grey, instead of being painted good/evil. Trouble is, I often write to showcase a point, and I'm trying (too hard?) to make sure my point is actually supported by the story I tell. I feel I would rather be told 'your PC is fully justified but your misgynists are somewhat stupid evil' instead of 'your PC is overreacting to her actually-not-too-bad circumstances'. I tend to stick to anvil-dropping for this reason.

I've written only PC backstories so far, so I get to skimp on the details and aim to give general impressions over nuances. If that says anything.

[JoeJ]

I have a problem with this. What if a player realises a misgynist villain has a point/isn't that wrong after all? What do I do to justify portraying him as evil? I'm not remotely a good writer, or story-teller who knows how to play off nuances!

I tend to stick to anvil-dropping.

Just because somebody is evil, that doesn't make everything they ever say and do wrong. If the NPC has a point, or possesses some sympathetic traits, or is partly right, so much the better. Real people aren't cardboard cutouts, and interesting fictional characters aren't either.

[goto124]

To add on, I suppose I've only written evil characters who're meant not to be interesting people, but as part of a narrative looking to prove a point. Explains a lot...

[JoeJ]

To add on, I suppose I've only written evil characters who're meant not to be interesting people, but as part of a narrative looking to prove a point. Explains a lot...

I think with more three-dimensional characters you'll also do a better job of proving your point. Thwarting Baron Nasty McPuppykicker might be fun for an evening, but he's probably not going to provoke anyone to really think hard about anything important.

[busterswd]

I have a problem with this. What if a player realises a misgynist villain has a point/isn't that wrong after all? What do I do to justify portraying him as evil? I'm not remotely a good writer, or story-teller who knows how to play off nuances!

I realise that I shouldn't be afraid to have characters that are morally grey, instead of being painted good/evil. Trouble is, I often write to showcase a point, and I'm trying (too hard?) to make sure my point is actually supported by the story I tell. I feel I would rather be told 'your PC is fully justified but your misgynists are somewhat stupid evil' instead of 'your PC is overreacting to her actually-not-too-bad circumstances'. I tend to stick to anvil-dropping for this reason.

I've written only PC backstories so far, so I get to skimp on the details and aim to give general impressions over nuances. If that says anything.

Well, writing good characters and good adventurers are hard. Writing well thought out, subtle prose that gracefully makes points and creates deep revelations is even harder. Not everyone is capable of it.

Like people said earlier, the adventure tone may just end up being more slapstick/over the top in nature, and there's nothing wrong with that, as long as your players are comfortable with it and having fun.

Personally, I was kind of taken aback by the initial premise, which is why I suggested a more subtle way of doing things, especially if you have male players involved. But going over the top cartoon evil may fix that problem. Have your villains twirl their mustaches, stroke their goatee, and cackle maniacally.

[Knaight]

From a realistic perspective discriminatory power structures tend to be deeply entrenched, change really slowly over generations, and have both an insidious set of ideas among generally normal people and a number of absolute hardliners dedicated to maintaining them. Meanwhile, the sort of deeds that are generally done by PCs and that 5e focuses on are often of a more personal scale, which is a drop in the bucket when compared to a large society. 5e also does favor PC power getting much bigger and makes reputation gain comparatively easy, but the status quo of a large population is a big thing.

That leaves three obvious options. One is to run the game at an extended time scale, possibly with troupe play. Yes, progress is slow, but the game goes over a few hundred years of in game time, so it's still very noticeable over the course of a campaign. Another is to tie the PCs to larger organizations, which has the disadvantage of minimizing their effect to some extent, but does work well from a verisimilitude perspective. The third is just to use a smaller setting, so the personal level effects of the PCs represent interactions with broader swaths of society. There are also more intricate options which will be harder to pull off (e.g. the implementation of cultures which tend to be less tied to their history and more able to change for some combination of reasons), along with obvious options to combine the two.

Still, if you're keeping an otherwise conventional campaign, consider something like a small archipelago with a more limited population (that preferably hasn't been there for a hugely long time) for the setting. It makes enacting social change in a realistic fashion that much more plausible.

[Garimeth]

Interesting premise to the game for some. Some people have mentioned that you can run this as the same as a Upper class, vs. Lower class game, this is not true however because a commoner child can not be born to a noble family, excepting bastards, and this can totally happen with sex.

To try and not touch on the things that have been mentioned by other too much (I.E. actually playing the sexism) here are some world-building thoughts:

GOVERNMENT:
What rights are NOT afforded to women?
What are crimes for women and not men?
Why are the PCs in prison?
What system of governance is used? Democracy? City State? Monarchy? Tyranny?
What does law enforcement and the people sent to hunt the fugitives look like? Is it active? Is it passive?

SOCIAL:
How much does the public support the current structure? How about those who resist it? Can the PCs be folk heroes?
Who resists it, and how?
Who actively suppresses that resistance, and how?
Is the female adventuring party illegal, or simply frowned upon?
Do exceptions for children apply? IE Children are children until puberty and then segregation occurs, etc.

ECONOMIC:
What jobs are only held by women?
What jobs are only held by men?
Is this because of legal or social concerns?
Do children and young adults have any say as to what occupation they will go into?

FOREIGN POLICY:
What are the neighboring kingdoms?
What is their style of governance and what is their main demographic?
How do they feel about the PC kingdom, their politics, and those who resist it?

If you take these through their logical conclusions and have answers for all of them, it will give you a strong framework for a setting that accomplishes what you want, without simply being a caricature.

EDIT: Bear in mind too that there are many possible additional things that need to be added.

[halcyonforever]

- All armor is either effective (and fits men), or ineffective ("boob plate", "bikini chain").

- Magic items provide sexist, male-oriented benefits: a Bedroll of Comfort which summons a Nymph, for example.

- Invisible Servants have boobs and giggle cutely when you smack them on the ass. (This is difficult to achieve because they're invisible.)

... bah, all I got is comedy.

I think there is a heavy role for comedy in something like this, lest it get too weighty.

[Knaight]

I think there is a heavy role for comedy in something like this, lest it get too weighty.

I'd second that. It would be all to easy for the whole game to become a slow grind against a set of seemingly implacable societal forces, and while that's fine from a verisimilitude perspective it's probably not all that fun without something lighter to break it up. Basically nobody wants a game that is just the bleakest parts of A Handmaid's Tale.