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ClericofPhwarrr
2007-05-14, 07:47 PM
All right, it's question time. The warshaper prestige class from Complete Warrior: is it worth taking? It looks interesting and decent despite the medium BAB, but I don't see it mentioned often in character op.

Now say I've decided to take it. How can I best use it, with all books available? I had the idea of using a changling (which I plan to use as my race anyway for an upcoming level 4 campaign) to benefit from the bonuses almost constantly. But any suggestions on how else to utilize it best? And what would you recommend as the class(es) to lead up to it?

[Edit:] To save you from trying to remember which class it is if the book isn't handy, it's the one that gives bonuses while you're out of your normal form. To sum up, you get: Immunity to critical hits and ability to grow natural weapons at level 1, +4 str and con at level 2, +5 reach at level 3, and fast healing 2 at level 4. Level 5 is a waste (rapid shifting), so I'm not worried about that.

The_Snark
2007-05-14, 07:53 PM
It's a good class. Talk with your DM about how many natural weapons you can create/enhance, too; one seems like too few, but allowing unlimited natural weapons is asking for trouble. One per class level seems like a good balance, or maybe 1/2 class levels.

I'd reccommend classes that give you bonus damage on attacks, since you'll have more of those. The sneak-attacking fighter variant from the SRD is a good choice, and swashbuckler will work also. If you're only allowed one natural weapon, this isn't as important; any melee class with full BAB will do.

Only take 4 levels in the class, though. Unlimited fast healing is great, but the capping ability to shapechange faster is pretty useless when you're already going to be in your alternate form all the time.

Tokiko Mima
2007-05-14, 08:17 PM
I had a player (in a gestalt game) become a Werebear and mix Warshaper with Forsaker from MotW and take a Vow of Poverty and Improved Natural Attack. That was one nasty strong bear!! Werebears after all get a +16 to Strength in Bear/Hybrid form.

Kinda a huge LA though, since the racial hit die and the animal hit die combine with the +2/3 listed.

the_tick_rules
2007-05-14, 08:22 PM
it's great for a melee druid. if you use ranged spells more then probably not.

Zherog
2007-05-14, 08:22 PM
Just remember you only get the bonuses from the class while in an "alternate" form.

I like it best with a changling rogue from the Eberron CS.

Person_Man
2007-05-14, 09:33 PM
The PrC is weaker then a standard Druid. A standard Druid continues its full spell progression. A standard Druid continues its animal companion progression. And a standard Druid continues its Wild Shape progression. Although a Warshaper's abilities seem impressive, they are less impressive then what a standard Druid with the ability to turn into more powerful creatures can do.

For example, a Druid 5/Warshaper 5 can turn into a deinonychus with extra reach, more Str and Con, Fast Healing, immunity to crits, better damage, etc. Very potent.

But a Druid 10 can turn into a Dire Lion, with the same reach, better damage, better Str, Improved Grab, etc. Some would argue that its more potent then the Warshaper. Throw on 5th level buff spells (or healing, or summons, or whatever) and it indisputably more powerful then the Warshapers petty 3rd level spells. Then top it off with a Dire Lion animal companion, which will eat the Warshaper's Wolf for breakfast, and you start to understand why everyone thinks the Druid is so powerful. This difference in power becomes even more pronounced at higher levels (plants, elementals, Huge size), and if you have access to certain Wildshape feats and/or the Spell Compendium.

If the Warshaper has a use, its for Non-Druid builds. It can make certain melee builds more potent. The King of Smack comes to mind. Maybe a Changeling Totemist. Still less powerful then a core Druid, but useful nonetheless.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-05-14, 11:57 PM
Person_Man: I'm not looking to go into it from druid; that would be a pretty foolish idea since like you said, druids can do it better. However, I don't want to play a druid right now. With a changeling, I can make the warshaper's bonuses effective practically all the time. For a rogue, swashbuckler, or warblade (3 of the main classes I'm looking at using), the bonuses might be quite helpful. Whether it would be better than just continuing on with warblade or rogue is what I'm not sure of (swashbuckler of course being only a 3 level dip).

Stephen_E
2007-05-15, 10:05 AM
I'd suggest that Warshaper works best with a battlefield control build.
The extra 5' reach become very useful.

A Spiked Chain build using Exotic Weaponmaster to remove the effect of cover and you have the basis for a great Whirlwind Attack and/or Trip/Disarm build. You need a Warchanter to get up to the broken levels, but even so making a single attack against everyone within 15' reach (25' if you get enlarged) at your best BAB is pretty nasty. Warchanter is a Comp War prestige Bard class that has as their 2nd? lev song Reckless Song, give 1 target the ability to take a penalty to their AC upto their BAB, and add this to their attack bonus. Say Power Attack someone.

The ultimate for manipulating your bonuses is to have Power Attack, Combat Expertise and Reckless Song. You can shift AC up or down, Attack up or down and Damage up. :smallbiggrin:

Stephen

Person_Man
2007-05-15, 02:04 PM
Person_Man: I'm not looking to go into it from druid; that would be a pretty foolish idea since like you said, druids can do it better. However, I don't want to play a druid right now. With a changeling, I can make the warshaper's bonuses effective practically all the time. For a rogue, swashbuckler, or warblade (3 of the main classes I'm looking at using), the bonuses might be quite helpful. Whether it would be better than just continuing on with warblade or rogue is what I'm not sure of (swashbuckler of course being only a 3 level dip).

I don't think Warshaper works well with any of those classes.

A Rogue is a Skill Monkey. Using Warshaper will kill your Skills and your Sneak Attack progression, and your BAB and hit points and AC will suck.

Swash is just a plain weak class. I rarely suggest it for anything, even a three level dip. Swash builds are a statistical trap, as are most Weapon Finesse builds. Why pump Dex (to hit) and Int (for damage) when you can just pump Str to do the same thing. You can get higher AC from wearing good armor. And you don't really need marginally better Skills because your primary role is as a meatshield. If you do, you can just buy any of the numerous and cheap magic items that pump a Skill by +10. You're a melee build. Focus on Str and Con, and you'll be a lot better at it.

Warblades are great. Unlike Swash, they get a bunch of different benefits from high Int. But like casters, they get the most bang for their buck by getting access to higher level maneuvers, which are much more potent then the Warshapers abilities.

How about Psychic Warrior? Use Claws of the Beast and Claws of the Vampire with a few levels of Warshaper and the Improved Natural Attack feat for some pretty impressive damage+healing. Google "King of Smack" to find the broken version.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-05-15, 02:21 PM
Duly noted. Recently I got it into my head that if I could manipulate the character to rely on Dex, Int, and Con only (the "god-stats," if you will), I could focus on those three areas to better effect. I see your point though.

I was looking at Psychic Warrior but was skeptical. I'll give it another look though.

And yes, I realize the foolishness of dipping into martial adepts.

Ramza00
2007-05-15, 02:28 PM
I can imagine a changeling swordsage (with the unarmed variant) pulling 4 levels of warshaper off pretty well. (A warshaper monk is usually the other option)

Warshaper works great in gestalt.

Warshaper is decent for MoMF but due to the fact it doesn't affect your wildshape hd it is "merely decent".

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-05-15, 02:41 PM
Re-looked up the king of smack, and while it's impressive... I don't want the DM to throw me out. Also, it looks like trying something like that would completely change the character concept; most of his builds rely on being an Elan and taking advantage of loopholes. The other problem is that it only really becomes effective at later levels, and this game starts at 4 (and may not go very long). Thanks for the idea, though. I'll still see if I can't make something work with it.

Will also consider SS and monk.

[Edit:] Looked at the Psychic Warrior some more, and I might just go with that, and scrap the whole changling warshaper idea. :smallsigh:

SpiderBrigade
2007-05-15, 03:41 PM
Well, the nice thing about the King of Smack (or really most optimized superbuilds) is that you can pretty easily ramp the power down by omitting a few things. Don't take the Rapidstrike feat chain, for instance, which then increases your flexibility in other ways. Just use the basic concept of "guy with lots of psionic claw attacks" and be strong, but don't push it to the insane level of the full KoS build.

Now, there ARE some builds that really need every piece in place to work at all, but KoS isn't like that as far as I can see.

Person_Man
2007-05-15, 08:40 PM
Well, the nice thing about the King of Smack (or really most optimized superbuilds) is that you can pretty easily ramp the power down by omitting a few things. Don't take the Rapidstrike feat chain, for instance, which then increases your flexibility in other ways. Just use the basic concept of "guy with lots of psionic claw attacks" and be strong, but don't push it to the insane level of the full KoS build.

Now, there ARE some builds that really need every piece in place to work at all, but KoS isn't like that as far as I can see.

I agree. Also, most of the various uber death melee builds can easily be taken out by a full caster. The KoS can deal a kajillion damage, heal 50% of it to himself, and then do a little dance on your bloody corpse. Whoop de doo. A regular Wizard can become interrupt the normal Initiative order, stop time, spend a couple of rounds making insults at your expense, and then kill you and everyone else in a room in one round with a wide variety of spells. When you put it into perspective, all the most "powerful" non-caster builds are just jokes compared to full casters. They only seem broken because you're not used to seeing a melee build that potent.

selfcritical
2007-05-16, 11:01 AM
I agree. Also, most of the various uber death melee builds can easily be taken out by a full caster. The KoS can deal a kajillion damage, heal 50% of it to himself, and then do a little dance on your bloody corpse. Whoop de doo. A regular Wizard can become interrupt the normal Initiative order, stop time, spend a couple of rounds making insults at your expense, and then kill you and everyone else in a room in one round with a wide variety of spells. When you put it into perspective, all the most "powerful" non-caster builds are just jokes compared to full casters. They only seem broken because you're not used to seeing a melee build that potent.

To be fair, the KoS is also immune to mind-effecting spells and powers, can't be scried on, has incredible mobility, and likely can't be immobilized if he doesn't want to. Depending on build he may only be tickled by you time-stopping and unloading a few targeted meteor swarms. He can still be royally screwed over, but the build has waaaaaaay more options than a charging frenzied berserker, for example.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-16, 11:15 AM
Changeling Totemist into Warshaper is a good idea too, if you feel like using Incarnum.

...or, you could go cheesy and Pauper of Smack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41214) yourself.