Unarmed fighting mage build

[Lord Il Palazzo]

I have a low level game starting up pretty soon and one of my players has asked to play a character who is an unarmed, unarmored fighter with spellcasting abilities. He wants the character to be a religions figure, kind of a battling priest. (I can't get the Braindead/Dead Alive "I kick ass for the Lord!" guy out of my head.) His first idea was a sorcerer of some sort but after talking, we're thinking about a multiclass monk/cleric or possibly monk/sorcerer. (I'm not sure how he went from "I want to play a priest" to "How about a sorcerer?", I think it was kind of a super-rough, basic idea.)

From his original sorcerer concept, my first thought was that a draconic sorcerer (for AC and HP) with the Tavern Brawler feat from variant human might be monk-y enough but it doesn't really give the "priest" concept.

The other ideas we threw around are monk/cleric or monk/favored soul with the cleric/favored soul giving the priestly feel and monk giving him the unarmed/unarmored fighting. We feel like monk 1/caster 2 is best to get more/better spells faster.

Are there any other suggestions for how to build this character or thoughts or ideas on the builds above? If we ended up with a cleric, what domains would work best for a monk multiclass? (The main church in the setting, that he wants to be affiliated with, would probably best support Knowledge, Light, Life and maybe War and Death but I'm open to making the others work if he wants.) We're not going to reach higher levels so features above level 5 or so probably aren't going to matter, especially with the multiclass.

TLDR: How would you make a character with both unarmed/unarmored fighting and spellcasting with a priestly feel at low levels?

[Daehron]

How would you make a character with both unarmed/unarmored fighting and spellcasting with a priestly feel at low levels?

Elemental Monk is "spell casty." Add in the acolyte background and "magical adept: cleric." And you are good to go.

If you want "full spell casting progression" plus "unarmed combat" plus "durability," you are kind of out of luck, without going gestalt.

[Temperjoke]

Couple of questions:
1. Does he want to be fighting at melee or at range?
2. Would a priestly background be enough, like using the Acolyte background, to satisfy his priestly leanings?

If he truly wants to be unarmed and unarmored, he's definitely going to want to start with the monk class, it's designed to support such things.

[Nifft]

Barbarian (for naked and angry) + Bard (magic, plus Valor for melee prowess) + Barroom Brawler.

Bar-Bar-Bar.

Maybe 3 levels of Barbarian for Bear Totem resist everything; maybe just one level for HP and Con to AC.

Bard all the rest of the way. Bards have some very Clerical spells. Valor Bards can cast and punch at once, which is your best magic-attack combo.

[DivisibleByZero]

Personally, I'd homebrew a Monk Tradition akin to the Four Winds, but with a divine flavor, and call it a Sacred Fist. It would be terribly simple to do, basically just swapping Cleric spells for the Wizard ones granted and refluffing some of the other effects, and it would fit everything you wanted.
I'd also make one of its level 3 features grant bonus Ki equal to your Wisdom Mod, because that should have been a part of the 4W Monk to begin with.

[R.Shackleford]

Acolyte or Hermit background

Variant Human (Tavern brawler) Paladin of Devotion or Ancient X/ Dragon Sorcerer Y

Smite thy enemies with the fists of Bahamut... Sure Bahamut doesn't HAVE fists per say, but you know, whatever.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Couple of questions:
1. Does he want to be fighting at melee or at range?
2. Would a priestly background be enough, like using the Acolyte background, to satisfy his priestly leanings?

If he truly wants to be unarmed and unarmored, he's definitely going to want to start with the monk class, it's designed to support such things.
1) I think he wants melee (he did mention a kung-fu monk kind of feel) but with the option of throwing spells if ranged combat looks smarter for a particular encounter.
2) I suggested giving the character an acolyte background but he wants it to reflect a little more in his actual abilities. Also, he's leaning toward one of the thief-y backgrounds (criminal or urchin, probably) to make an "I got off to a bad start, but am trying to go straight" feel to his character.

This is all in the pretty early stages so I'm mostly shopping around ideas to throw at him and see what sticks.

I mentioned the two more magical monk traditions to him and neither seemed to impress him, though the idea of using Way of the Elements to follow up a level of Sorcerer seemed to be more interesting than anything Way of Shadows. (I think he wants an actual spellcasting class to pick from rather than a page or so of spell-like abilities, even if every level isn't in the casting class. Admittedly, at low levels, Way of the Elements doesn't exactly give a ton of options.)

[Nifft]

Acolyte or Hermit background

Variant Human (Tavern brawler) Paladin of Devotion or Ancient X/ Dragon Sorcerer Y

Smite thy enemies with the fists of Bahamut... Sure Bahamut doesn't HAVE fists per say, but you know, whatever.

Hmm. An unarmed homebrew Paladin Vow ("Ascetic Vow") might be a good fix. Smite could nicely compensate for the low fist damage, and it's already a hybrid melee/divine class.

I like that idea.


Way of the Elements doesn't exactly give a ton of options.)

I think he may want what Way of the Elements should have been, rather than what it currently seems to be.

[Temperjoke]

1) I think he wants melee (he did mention a kung-fu monk kind of feel) but with the option of throwing spells if ranged combat looks smarter for a particular encounter.
2) I suggested giving the character an acolyte background but he wants it to reflect a little more in his actual abilities. Also, he's leaning toward one of the thief-y backgrounds (criminal or urchin, probably) to make an "I got off to a bad start, but am trying to go straight" feel to his character.

This is all in the pretty early stages so I'm mostly shopping around ideas to throw at him and see what sticks.

I mentioned the two more magical monk traditions to him and neither seemed to impress him, though the idea of using Way of the Elements to follow up a level of Sorcerer seemed to be more interesting than anything Way of Shadows. (I think he wants an actual spellcasting class to pick from rather than a page or so of spell-like abilities, even if every level isn't in the casting class. Admittedly, at low levels, Way of the Elements doesn't exactly give a ton of options.)

Alright, I'd say start with monk, go with the open hand path at level 3, then multiclass into a light domain cleric. Monk/Cleric have decent stat compatibility, and the Monk starts out with Unarmored Defense and Martial Arts, which support the sort of playstyle he seems to want. With Way of the Open Hand he'll get the strong Open Hand Technique, which adds an effect to his Flurry of Blows. Going with Light Domain Cleric gives him several offensive spells and Warding Flare, which allows you to impose disadvantage on an opponent's attack roll, which increases the chance of it missing. That will help support his melee actions.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Hmm. An unarmed homebrew Paladin Vow ("Ascetic Vow") might be a good fix. Smite could nicely compensate for the low fist damage, and it's already a hybrid melee/divine class.

I like that idea.What would you do with such a homebrew? Just take away weapon and armor proficiencies to add monk-style martial arts and unarmored defense? (Maybe with Charisma instead of Wisdom.)

I'm mostly trying to avoid homebrewing anything because most of my players are going to be quite new (they've played about five 5e one-shots between the four of them and the one this thread is for hasn't played 5e yet at all) and I want to give them an idea what the system is like and can do before I start tweaking and adjusting. (I also feel like this is something that should be possible without homebrew, which I usually use as a last resort.)

Edit: That said, I'm not completely opposed to homebrew; it's just not the first place my mind went, which is part of why others suggesting it is helpful.

I think he may want what Way of the Elements should have been, rather than what it currently seems to be.That's a pretty good way to put it, priestiness aside.


Alright, I'd say start with monk, go with the open hand path at level 3, then multiclass into a light domain cleric. Monk/Cleric have decent stat compatibility, and the Monk starts out with Unarmored Defense and Martial Arts, which support the sort of playstyle he seems to want. With Way of the Open Hand he'll get the strong Open Hand Technique, which adds an effect to his Flurry of Blows. Going with Light Domain Cleric gives him several offensive spells and Warding Flare, which allows you to impose disadvantage on an opponent's attack roll, which increases the chance of it missing. That will help support his melee actions.That's not far off from what I was thinking, though he might swap the order of the levels. We're starting at level 3 and I assume he wants at least one level in each of his classes when we start.

[Temperjoke]

What would you do with such a homebrew? Just take away weapon and armor proficiencies to add monk-style martial arts and unarmored defense? (Maybe with Charisma instead of Wisdom.)

I'm mostly trying to avoid homebrewing anything because most of my players are going to be quite new (they've played about five 5e one-shots between the four of them and the one this thread is for hasn't played 5e yet at all) and I want to give them an idea what the system is like and can do before I start tweaking and adjusting. (I also feel like this is something that should be possible without homebrew, which I usually use as a last resort.)

Edit: That said, I'm not completely opposed to homebrew; it's just not the first place my mind went, which is part of why others suggesting it is helpful.
That's a pretty good way to put it, priestiness aside.

That's not far off from what I was thinking, though he might swap the order of the levels. We're starting at level 3 and I assume he wants at least one level in each of his classes when we start.

Well, one reason to start with monk till 3 could be roleplayed as him needing to prove himself a bit, or one level's worth, before granting him their full blessing. Up to you and him though. :P

[R.Shackleford]

I put together a Sorcerer (Dragon) 6/Paladin (Ancient) 14 and holy crap. Once you get past low levels it really comes together.

You end with up to 7th level spells.

I can Misty Step, Unarmed Strike Twice, and Smite in one turn.

20 str/18 cha, with twin and quicken spell, +11 Con save/+14 Cha save.

As a mid to late level build, I really like it.

So many combos with a great mental image.

[Nifft]

What would you do with such a homebrew? Just take away weapon and armor proficiencies to add monk-style martial arts and unarmored defense? (Maybe with Charisma instead of Wisdom.) That sounds like a good start, yeah. I haven't really thought through all the details. What I'm sure of is:
- The character will need some kind of damage bonus (which Smite handles nicely); and
- The character will need Divine casting (which Paladin also handles).

Armor and weapons seem like things you could lift directly from Monk. Heck, maybe add Strength to AC instead of Charisma or Wisdom. Then the PC has to make the same choice that any Paladin makes: to prioritize Str (melee) or Cha (casting)?


Another simpler homebrew idea is a Monk with Eldritch Knight / Arcane Trickster spell progression, but spells chosen from the Cleric (or maybe Paladin) list instead of the Wizard list. Other than the spells, it's a Monk. Steal some of the EK / AT features, like the combined cast-and-attack thing, but not many because Monk is a very solid foundation.


Not saying you should homebrew, but it's fun and might be pretty simple in this case.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Hmm. An unarmed homebrew Paladin Vow ("Ascetic Vow") might be a good fix. Smite could nicely compensate for the low fist damage, and it's already a hybrid melee/divine class.

I like that idea.What would you do with such a homebrew? Just take away weapon and armor proficiencies to add monk-style martial arts and unarmored defense? (Maybe with Charisma instead of Wisdom.)Thinking some more, I'm a little torn on adding Monk Martial Arts to a paladin, particularly for the bonus action extra attack. Extra attacks for a paladin mean extra chances to smite or even crit-smite so I feel like handing a paladin two attacks a turn at level 3 might be unwise. That said, they're still limited on smites/day and other builds (like variant human/Polearm Master can get a free bonus action attack at low levels too. At least a martial arts paladin wouldn't be able to use the Great Weapon Fighting style with it. Hmmm.

What think you all?

[DivisibleByZero]

What think you all?

I think this.


Four Elements Monk chassis and mechanics, wth the following changes:

- Add Wis Mod to available Ki (because that's how the caster monk should have been to start with).
- At levels 3, 6, 11 and 17, whenever an Elemental Discipline is learned, instead of choosing one (as listed) you choose two (because that's how it should have been to start with).
- Add the following Disciplines:
NAME: You can spend 2 Ki points to cast Cure Wounds
NAME: You can spend 2 Ki points to cast Divine Favor
NAME: You can spend 2 Ki points to cast Searing Smite
NAME: You can spend 2 Ki points to cast Thunderous Smite
NAME: You can spend 2 Ki points to cast Wrathful Smite
NAME: You can spend 2 Ki points to cast Shield of Faith
NAME: You can spend 2 Ki points to cast Command
NAME: You can spend 2 Ki points to cast Sanctuary

Level 6 required
NAME: You can spend 3 Ki points to cast Branding Smite
NAME: You can spend 3 Ki points to cast Prayer of Healing
NAME: You can spend 3 Ki points to cast Spiritual Weapon
NAME: You can spend 3 Ki points to cast Warding Bond

Level 11 required
NAME: You can spend 4 Ki points to cast Aura of Vitality
NAME: You can spend 4 Ki points to cast Blinding Smite
NAME: You can spend 4 Ki points to cast Crusader's Mantle
NAME: You can spend 4 Ki points to cast Dispel Magic
NAME: You can spend 4 Ki points to cast Remove Curse
NAME: You can spend 4 Ki points to cast Revivify
NAME: You can spend 4 Ki points to cast Mass Healing Word
NAME: You can spend 4 Ki points to cast Spirit Guardians

Level 17 required
NAME: You can spend 5 Ki points to cast Aura of Life
NAME: You can spend 5 Ki points to cast Aura of Purity
NAME: You can spend 5 Ki points to cast Staggering Smite
NAME: You can spend 5 Ki points to cast Freedom of Movement
NAME: You can spend 5 Ki points to cast Guardian of Faith

Level 17 required
NAME: You can spend 6 Ki points to cast Banishing Smite
NAME: You can spend 6 Ki points to cast Destructive Wave
NAME: You can spend 6 Ki points to cast Flame Strike
NAME: You can spend 6 Ki points to cast Greater Restoration
NAME: You can spend 6 Ki points to cast Hallow
That's what I think.

[Nifft]

Thinking some more, I'm a little torn on adding Monk Martial Arts to a paladin, particularly for the bonus action extra attack. Extra attacks for a paladin mean extra chances to smite or even crit-smite so I feel like handing a paladin two attacks a turn at level 3 might be unwise. That said, they're still limited on smites/day and other builds (like variant human/Polearm Master can get a free bonus action attack at low levels too. At least a martial arts paladin wouldn't be able to use the Great Weapon Fighting style with it. Hmmm.

What think you all?
I've never seen anyone saying that TWF Paladin is broken, and they can get a bonus-action attack.

Greatweapon users can get a bonus-action attack (via the feat) while also gaining the Greatweapon benefits.

Still, I bet the Monk + Arcane Trickster casting progression is less problematic. :smile:

[Lord Il Palazzo]

I put together a Sorcerer (Dragon) 6/Paladin (Ancient) 14 and holy crap. Once you get past low levels it really comes together.

You end with up to 7th level spells.

I can Misty Step, Unarmed Strike Twice, and Smite in one turn.

20 str/18 cha, with twin and quicken spell, +11 Con save/+14 Cha save.

As a mid to late level build, I really like it.

So many combos with a great mental image.I like the idea of a mix of sorcerer and paladin, though we won't get up to high enough levels for most of the antics you're talking about. Still, if you've got Tavern Brawler in there, a little sorcerer gives some of spell versatility and extra slots for more smiting besides just giving AC like a monk level. The only downside to it (and to Tavern Brawler over Monk-based builds) is that it requires strength instead of dexterity, which he already wants for AC.

I think this.


Four Elements Monk chassis and mechanics, wth the following changes:

- Add Wis Mod to available Ki (because that's how the caster monk should have been to start with).
- At levels 3, 6, 11 and 17, whenever an Elemental Discipline is learned, instead of choosing one (as listed) you choose two (because that's how it should have been to start with).
- Add the following Disciplines:
NAME: You can spend 2 Ki points to cast Cure Wounds
NAME: You can spend 2 Ki points to cast Divine Favor
NAME: You can spend 2 Ki points to cast Searing Smite
NAME: You can spend 2 Ki points to cast Thunderous Smite
NAME: You can spend 2 Ki points to cast Wrathful Smite
NAME: You can spend 2 Ki points to cast Shield of Faith
NAME: You can spend 2 Ki points to cast Command
NAME: You can spend 2 Ki points to cast Sanctuary

Level 6 required
NAME: You can spend 3 Ki points to cast Branding Smite
NAME: You can spend 3 Ki points to cast Prayer of Healing
NAME: You can spend 3 Ki points to cast Spiritual Weapon
NAME: You can spend 3 Ki points to cast Warding Bond

Level 11 required
NAME: You can spend 4 Ki points to cast Aura of Vitality
NAME: You can spend 4 Ki points to cast Blinding Smite
NAME: You can spend 4 Ki points to cast Crusader's Mantle
NAME: You can spend 4 Ki points to cast Dispel Magic
NAME: You can spend 4 Ki points to cast Remove Curse
NAME: You can spend 4 Ki points to cast Revivify
NAME: You can spend 4 Ki points to cast Mass Healing Word
NAME: You can spend 4 Ki points to cast Spirit Guardians

Level 17 required
NAME: You can spend 5 Ki points to cast Aura of Life
NAME: You can spend 5 Ki points to cast Aura of Purity
NAME: You can spend 5 Ki points to cast Staggering Smite
NAME: You can spend 5 Ki points to cast Freedom of Movement
NAME: You can spend 5 Ki points to cast Guardian of Faith

Level 17 required
NAME: You can spend 6 Ki points to cast Banishing Smite
NAME: You can spend 6 Ki points to cast Destructive Wave
NAME: You can spend 6 Ki points to cast Flame Strike
NAME: You can spend 6 Ki points to cast Greater Restoration
NAME: You can spend 6 Ki points to cast Hallow
That's what I think.Interesting. I'll definitely keep that in mind as one to pitch to my player. I might look for some way to tone it down a little (with homebrew, it's always easier to start weaker and power up if need be than to nerf something mid-game) but I like the look and feel of it. One adjustment, if I may suggest, would be to throw in Thaumaturgy as a freebie at level 3 as a replacement for the Four Elements' Elemental Attunement discipline.

I've never seen anyone saying that TWF Paladin is broken, and they can get a bonus-action attack.

Greatweapon users can get a bonus-action attack (via the feat) while also gaining the Greatweapon benefits.

Still, I bet the Monk + Arcane Trickster casting progression is less problematic. :smile:Like I said, I'm more on the fence than leaning away from by the books Martial Arts, but fair points.

[DivisibleByZero]

Interesting. I'll definitely keep that in mind as one to pitch to my player. I might look for some way to tone it down a little (with homebrew, it's always easier to start weaker and power up if need be than to nerf something mid-game) but I like the look and feel of it. One adjustment, if I may suggest, would be to throw in Thaumaturgy as a freebie at level 3 as a replacement for the Four Elements' Elemental Attunement discipline.

That's easy.
Don't give them Wis Mod to their Ki pool.
Don't give them two choices at each tier.
Or don't give them either.

Adding the Disciplines to give the character the feel they want is the easy part. If you want it weaker, just add the disciplines and change nothing else. But warn the player (and be warned yourself) that until mid levels, they simply don't have the Ki to do anything with it unless they get that bonus. If you want to avoid that issue, then that WisMod bonus is going to basically be required. In that case, an adjustment of costs might be in order for the Disciplines (like maybe 2, 3, 5, 6, 8 or something).

[Lord Il Palazzo]

That's easy.
Don't give them Wis Mod to their Ki pool.
Don't give them two choices at each tier.
Or don't give them either.Yeah, those are the obvious knobs to adjust, as it were, to tinker with the power level, the problem is that both feel necessary to give the class the feeling it really wants to have. It's probably fine as is; I just tend to be wary of homebrews as a rule.

[JackPhoenix]

I wonder...would exchanging paladin's weapon and armor proficiencies for monk's Unarmored Defense and Martial Arts work? Either base UD on charisma, or paladin abilities to work from wisdom (whatever suits the character better) to make it less MAD...it would be pretty balanced, IMO. It won't fly in AL, though.

EDIT: ninja'd...that what's I'll get for going for a dinner between opening the thread and responding without refreshing for new posts upon return.

[MOLOKH]

A simple, if inelegant solution would be to play a Sorcerer (Draconic Bloodline or more likely Favored Soul for the extra attack) and cast Alter Self to gain +1 magical natural weapons with 1d6 base damage as early as level 3, while still being a full caster.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

I wonder...would exchanging paladin's weapon and armor proficiencies for monk's Unarmored Defense and Martial Arts work? Either base UD on charisma, or paladin abilities to work from wisdom (whatever suits the character better) to make it less MAD...it would be pretty balanced, IMO. It won't fly in AL, though.Well, now that it's been mentioned a couple times, I'll have to run numbers for my own curiosity, for my own curiosity at least.


A level 3 paladin (assume variant human with standard array: S:15+1 D:8 C:13+1 I:10 W:12 C:14 with chainmail, a glaive and Polearm Master) would have 16 AC and could attack for 1d10+1d4+6 (average 14) plus smites. (With Great Weapon Style, the damage becomes more like 15.5, I think, plus better smites.)
With Martial Arts and Unarmored Defense (tied to Charisma) (variant human, S:10 D:15+1 C: 13+1 I: 8 W: 12 C: 14 with some nonspecific feat) would have 15 AC and could attack for 2d4+6 (average 11) plus smites. (Great weapon fighting and Defense (barring further homebrewing) is off the table so assuming Dueling with a Monk weapon which increases one of the d4s to a d6+2 and makes the damage 1d4+1d6+8 for an average of 14.)

Unless I completely flubbed my math (always possible) it looks like this homebrew would end up giving the paladin lower damage and AC so it I wouldn't veto it for power.
Running it again with Nifft's Strength-to-AC idea (variant human, S:15+1 D:13+1 C: 12 I: 8 W: 10 C: 14 with some nonspecific feat) lands us at 15 AC and the same damage as Charisma-to-AC but with worse overall stats because we have to care about more of them so again, definitely not power-veto-worthy.

[vcremasco]

Be "simplist".

Use a Sorcerer, choose the "Favored Soul" option from UA, change the 1st level proficiency with low/medium armors & shields by an option with "10+Dex+Wis" and give him the tavern brawler. You want more fluffy? Give him a cantrip similar to Shocking Grasp, but with radiance damage and you are good to go.

He will have "ok" damage in higher levels (due to the cantrip), good armor as a shield wielder and medium armored cleric, blasting/conjuring and other stuff as a sorcerer with cleric domain can do.

Note that I am not a "mechanics nuts", but I liked the concept and gave it a shot.