Societal Effects of Only Having Incarnum?

[Vrock_Summoner]

I considered putting this in World-Building, but it occurs to me that this is really a discussion of how mechanics effect the world rather than fluff, so the subforum about mechanics is better-suited.

Anyway, it's basically what it says on the tin. We've all seen or talked about the sorts of societies that form with the full spectrum of magic on the table, but what if Incarnum was the primary source of power in a world, with "normal" magic and psionics and the like being gone or extremely limited? What sort of societal developments would be likely or assured with that source of power (and no others) in relative abundance?

[Taveena]

Incarnum tends to have considerably less affect on a gameworld than other magic systems. Given many of the benefits are skill, attack, or movement bonuses, many of the really revolutionary possibilities of magic are flat-up gone.

In terms of what can actually be DONE... well, it's pretty much the same as what can be done with magic items. Those that don't mimic spells, anyway. Ultimately, Incarnum has a negligible effect on the world, but banning spells and powers means you don't have access to long-distance travel (with Wind Walk or Teleport), the ability to shift planes (unless you're a level 19 Incarnate), or magical healing (technically, the Crusader's healing maneuvers are Ex.) There's also no dispels, curse-breaking, or disease-curing.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually, plane hopping becomes available at level nine for individual totemists. Phase cloak bound to the shoulders gets you on the ethereal and a shimmering curtain gets you beyond. Add a bag of holding type 2 or better and the whole party can go along too.

You have to find a shimmering curtain for the plane you want to go to and getting back can be a real pain but technically......

[justiceforall]

Can you make a bag of holding without said casters?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Can you make a bag of holding without said casters?

Sort of.

If the setting has warlocks or midgard dwarves then such items likely still exist. It gets more complicated if they're out but it is still -possible-. It becomes one hell of a long shot in that case though.

[Psyren]

Minor magic effects get a lot more accessible to the masses. There is no reason at all for any commoner, expert or even aristocrat with the Con to spare to not take Shape Soulmeld, beyond simply not knowing about it, and once they have a soulmeld the benefit is more or less usable at-will. Similarly, unlocking chakras would also become expected for those who know how. With incarnum as the only source of magic rather than being a niche offshoot/throwback, there would be more humans using it to get an edge, and thus exposed to it, resulting in more Azurins.

Incarnates would get many of the societal benefits that divine and arcane spellcasters enjoy - the low-power masses would fear them and invent superstitions about what they could truly do. Totemists and Soulborns would be held in high regard as well, though the former would be more reclusive.

[Taveena]

Soulborns might not be held in that high regard, just by virtue of being such a godawful class. You can actually take the Open Least Chakra feat before the Soulborn even unlocks any Chakra binds. You're capped at a maximum of 6 capacity (with an Incarnum Focus and Improved Essentia Capacity), and your list is mediocre, anyway. At least you don't have your class features shut down immediately by anyone throwing Dispel Magic around, but when your best trick, at level 20, is being able to charge for an extra 6d4+12 damage... you're honestly better off ignoring your class features entirely and playing as a Warrior with some minor benefits. Would've been rather more efficient to just go Leap Attack + Shock Trooper - less feats, less money invested. I mean, sure, a Soulborn will be marginally stronger than a Warrior with exactly the same build... but is marginally stronger than an NPC class really where you wanna be?

This is part of why Incarnum Dragons are such a joke. Casting dragons are a t2 - even t1, if they're spellhoarding. The Incarnum Dragon doesn't even have SLAs to fall back on, and its meldshaper level - just like the Soulborn - is incredibly low for its CR. Incarnum Dragons do still have a strong full-attack routine, an untyped breath weapon, and the best chassis in the game - but Dragons are, relatively speaking, a joke.

So, there's a weird effect of only having incarnum - Dragons are no longer anywhere near as scary. Sure, one could rampage over a village, but they're basically a beatstick with a breath weapon. To try to mitigate that, try to focus on what advantages the Dragon DOES have - the Strafing Breath feat with unresistable damage, maybe also Entangling Exhalation to turn it into a huge area debuff or Lingering Breath to turn it into a giant BFC zone.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you want to keep dragons powerful, you can use the Xorvintaal rules in MM V. Makes 'em a bit more interesting too, IMO.

[Psyren]

Soulborns get a bad rap, and while I can definitely understand why, I think the claims that they are worse than fighters and warriors are overblown. Incarnum Defense would be a useful ability in such a low-magic environment - LG are immune to fear and CG are immune to paralysis, so they end up pretty well positioned to take on low-level undead like Ghouls that a society with no clerics or paladins would have good reason to fear. You can also tell their alignments at a glance, and the LG ones can't be intimidated or bullied by anyone.

At 3rd level they get a bonus incarnum feat, with Cobalt Power, Cobalt Charge, and Cobalt Expertise all being beneficial choices. Even small bonuses matter at these levels. At 4th level they get a Soulmeld, which means they're likely to have 2-3 with Shape Soulmeld at this point, or two and essentia to fuel them with.

I agree that the chakra binds come late, and I agree that they are woefully limited both in number and location. You do however get both throat and waist at 18, whereas a non-meldshaping class only gets one of these, at the same level.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Luckily, Soulborn is pretty easy to fix up: improve their meldshaping progression to match the Totemist's, with a Crown bind at 2nd.

But yeah...I don't think there would be much effect. Individual people might be more powerful than real life, but there really aren't many long-term, world-altering abilities, even on the level of Create Water. Apart from the super-high-level, rarely-useable Gate, there's... healing that hurts the healer? Alternate movement modes? Tactical, single-person teleports? Water breathing? Linguistics? I think the only real effect would be that it would be much harder to secure a building against a Totemist infiltrator.

[supersonic29]

If we're imagining most conservatively on what classes are about when it comes to things that are kind of their own form of magic but maybe not technically or whatever, then a lot of people are briefly mentioning a huge point here - curing disease/cursing is way harder. Someone will have to remind me if incarnum classes count as spellcasting levels for the purpose of taking Brew Potion, but even if they do, disease becomes a major threat if you aren't sporting high fortitude or higher-discipline incarnum abilities. Any monster with one of those weird need-a-really-good-cleric curses becomes force that reigns over a region, oppressing the life of villages. Similarly any aspiring BBEG only need harness this somehow to wipe out villages without proper guards of some kind. From a DM/player perspective that would also probably warp the CR system, which isn't perfect as is.

[Psyren]

I could see some soulmelds being useful for the layman. Firefighters, chefs and smiths with Flame Cincture. Sentries and watchmen with Keeneye Lenses. Gamblers with Lucky Dice. Scholars and historians with Elder Spirit. Doctors/healers with Pauldrons of Health. Knights with Riding Bracers. Sailors and Pirates with Sailor's Bracers. Diplomats and negotiators with Silvertongue Mask. Thieves with Theft Gloves, Displacer Mantle and/or Blink Shirt. Police with Truthseeker Goggles and Brass Mane. Construction workers with Pegasus Cloak.

Beekeepers with Wind Cloak :smallbiggrin:

[Grod_The_Giant]

How prevalent are meldshaping powers? You said that it's the only source of magic, but is it only in the hands of the dedicated, or is it something that most people have a little of? Do you have to train and sacrifice for it, or is it easy to get a hold of? Not mechanically-- we know how easy it is to add a drab of meldshaping to any build-- but fluff-wise.

[supersonic29]

You could establish lineages taking shape soulmeld as a level one feat, even level 1 commoners. After that, even those who didn't have it from the beginning may take it at level 3 of their NPC class after seeing how prevalent it is in the society. I feel like a society where incarnum is all there is has to really embrace it to not just be controlled by or at the whim of an incarnum wielding majority. Besides, the mechanical simplicity of taking that feat I would think is intended to represent the simplicity of dabbling into incarnum. After all, it's described as just being a presence everywhere, you just have to tap it a hair.

[Vrock_Summoner]

How prevalent are meldshaping powers? You said that it's the only source of magic, but is it only in the hands of the dedicated, or is it something that most people have a little of? Do you have to train and sacrifice for it, or is it easy to get a hold of? Not mechanically-- we know how easy it is to add a drab of meldshaping to any build-- but fluff-wise.
Depends on exactly how much Incarnum is desired. For just the feat, your typical full-time worker could probably spend half an hour a day for a couple of years teaching themselves to shape a single soulmeld without concern; the feat wouldn't have much any restriction on who could take it. Deeper Incarnum abilities, in the form of taking an Incarnum class, would definitely take a significant time of dedicated training, but wouldn't have any particular restrictions beyond being a bit time-intensive (and less so than prepared spellcasting), so I say Incarnum characters would probably be a fair deal more common than the normal assumptions for full casters.


This is part of why Incarnum Dragons are such a joke. Casting dragons are a t2 - even t1, if they're spellhoarding. The Incarnum Dragon doesn't even have SLAs to fall back on, and its meldshaper level - just like the Soulborn - is incredibly low for its CR. Incarnum Dragons do still have a strong full-attack routine, an untyped breath weapon, and the best chassis in the game - but Dragons are, relatively speaking, a joke.

So, there's a weird effect of only having incarnum - Dragons are no longer anywhere near as scary. Sure, one could rampage over a village, but they're basically a beatstick with a breath weapon. To try to mitigate that, try to focus on what advantages the Dragon DOES have - the Strafing Breath feat with unresistable damage, maybe also Entangling Exhalation to turn it into a huge area debuff or Lingering Breath to turn it into a giant BFC zone.
For what it's worth, I already had a thread for fixing this; I can link it if you'd like. The Incarnum progression was changed to be more in line with how normal dragon casting advances, so it was judged relative to Incarnate and Totemist rather than Soulborn; beyond that, the Soulmeld list available would depend on the alignment of the dragon, so they weren't all limited to Soulborn meldshaping. I think it made their meldshaping abilities much more relevant.

[Psyren]

You could establish lineages taking shape soulmeld as a level one feat, even level 1 commoners. After that, even those who didn't have it from the beginning may take it at level 3 of their NPC class after seeing how prevalent it is in the society. I feel like a society where incarnum is all there is has to really embrace it to not just be controlled by or at the whim of an incarnum wielding majority. Besides, the mechanical simplicity of taking that feat I would think is intended to represent the simplicity of dabbling into incarnum. After all, it's described as just being a presence everywhere, you just have to tap it a hair.

I don't know that I necessarily agree to this; just because it's easy to learn in mechanical terms and even fluff terms, doesn't mean it's widely available or well-known. Consider a similar source of "feat-magic" - Binding - which is also very easy to pick up both in terms of crunch (Bind Vestige feat) and fluff; despite the ease of learning it, knowledge of pact magic is by default extremely rare and tightly controlled.

Now granted, Incarnum doesn't have quite the same stigma that Binding does - the power is coming from insensate soulstuff rather than ineffable vestiges with their own agenda that make you act funny - so the negative attitudes toward it are a bit more understandable. Yet even with that, Incarnum is unlikely to fare much better in the eyes of a suspicious and distrusting muggle populace. This is especially true for all the myriad soulmelds that aid thievery.

[Taveena]

Soulborns get a bad rap, and while I can definitely understand why, I think the claims that they are worse than fighters and warriors are overblown. Incarnum Defense would be a useful ability in such a low-magic environment - LG are immune to fear and CG are immune to paralysis, so they end up pretty well positioned to take on low-level undead like Ghouls that a society with no clerics or paladins would have good reason to fear. You can also tell their alignments at a glance, and the LG ones can't be intimidated or bullied by anyone.

At 3rd level they get a bonus incarnum feat, with Cobalt Power, Cobalt Charge, and Cobalt Expertise all being beneficial choices. Even small bonuses matter at these levels. At 4th level they get a Soulmeld, which means they're likely to have 2-3 with Shape Soulmeld at this point, or two and essentia to fuel them with.

I agree that the chakra binds come late, and I agree that they are woefully limited both in number and location. You do however get both throat and waist at 18, whereas a non-meldshaping class only gets one of these, at the same level.

Incarnum defense is one immunity, which is basically just one less thing you need to consider in your WBL investment. It's not exactly a gamechanger. Their bonus feats were actually included in my damage writeup (I guess if you have Necrocarnum Weapon, Thunderstep Boots AND Incarnate Avatar: Evil from Shape Soulmeld, as well as getting 18 essentia, you can get up to 18+6d4 damage, which is three feats on Expanded Soulmeld Capacity. With Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shock Trooper, you can do an awful lot more. Cobalt Power and Cobalt Charge are both Insight bonuses, and thus do not stack with the stronger Incarnate Avatar (Evil), leaving the bonus feats only really a source of extra essentia and trip attempts.)

Frankly, I'd argue the Soulborn is weaker than the Divine Mind (without Mind's Eye Updates) but stronger than the Samurai. Divine Mind is a faster progression of a stronger magic system, and even with its arbitrary limitations they can pull off a lot more than the Soulborn, who isn't capable of remotely helpful skill bonuses (with, at best, +12 in Ride, Handle Animal, Swim, Profession (Sailor), and Use Rope) or class skills to make skillmonkeying possible.

I'm of the opinion that the Soulborn is actually solidly in tier 6. Immunity to one status effect is not enough to make a difference compared to the Warrior, awful class skills, low caps, and a bad list mean it can't do Incarnum's biggest strength (in skillmonkeying), it's MAD to a degree that makes the Monk look well-designed.

I'll give credit where it's due, the Soulborn is probably the only Incarnum-user that can actually make use of Cobalt Expertise by virtue of all their other receptacles being terrible, and with full BAB they might be able to do tripping decently. But without size increases, they can't keep up, and again... Divine Mind does the job better, and that's not a position you want to be in.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would think you would need to dip into some home-brewing to add diversity to your classes.

[torrasque666]

Hey now, soulborn isn't an absolute pile of Crap. It's a solid base for Arcanamach if you don't want to worry about splitting into two different casting lists. Trade Ride for Tumble though skilled city dweller and you have a class that can meet all the requirements with no dips.

[supersonic29]

I don't know that I necessarily agree to this; just because it's easy to learn in mechanical terms and even fluff terms, doesn't mean it's widely available or well-known. Consider a similar source of "feat-magic" - Binding - which is also very easy to pick up both in terms of crunch (Bind Vestige feat) and fluff; despite the ease of learning it, knowledge of pact magic is by default extremely rare and tightly controlled.

Now granted, Incarnum doesn't have quite the same stigma that Binding does - the power is coming from insensate soulstuff rather than ineffable vestiges with their own agenda that make you act funny - so the negative attitudes toward it are a bit more understandable. Yet even with that, Incarnum is unlikely to fare much better in the eyes of a suspicious and distrusting muggle populace. This is especially true for all the myriad soulmelds that aid thievery.

Incarnum would surely be more of a social norm I'd think if theres no alternative. To a degree you have to accept it as a society to be efficient and also not get steamrolled by outcasts/other societies that do, similarly to arcane/divine magic in a standard setting. The ease or commonality amongst a common class would be all DM discretion though.

Edit: Totemists would surely be outcast though

[Psyren]

Incarnum defense is one immunity, which is basically just one less thing you need to consider in your WBL investment. It's not exactly a gamechanger. Their bonus feats were actually included in my damage writeup (I guess if you have Necrocarnum Weapon, Thunderstep Boots AND Incarnate Avatar: Evil from Shape Soulmeld, as well as getting 18 essentia, you can get up to 18+6d4 damage, which is three feats on Expanded Soulmeld Capacity. With Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Shock Trooper, you can do an awful lot more. Cobalt Power and Cobalt Charge are both Insight bonuses, and thus do not stack with the stronger Incarnate Avatar (Evil), leaving the bonus feats only really a source of extra essentia and trip attempts.)

Frankly, I'd argue the Soulborn is weaker than the Divine Mind (without Mind's Eye Updates) but stronger than the Samurai. Divine Mind is a faster progression of a stronger magic system, and even with its arbitrary limitations they can pull off a lot more than the Soulborn, who isn't capable of remotely helpful skill bonuses (with, at best, +12 in Ride, Handle Animal, Swim, Profession (Sailor), and Use Rope) or class skills to make skillmonkeying possible.

I'm of the opinion that the Soulborn is actually solidly in tier 6. Immunity to one status effect is not enough to make a difference compared to the Warrior, awful class skills, low caps, and a bad list mean it can't do Incarnum's biggest strength (in skillmonkeying), it's MAD to a degree that makes the Monk look well-designed.

I'll give credit where it's due, the Soulborn is probably the only Incarnum-user that can actually make use of Cobalt Expertise by virtue of all their other receptacles being terrible, and with full BAB they might be able to do tripping decently. But without size increases, they can't keep up, and again... Divine Mind does the job better, and that's not a position you want to be in.

Of course Divine Mind is better than Soulborn, nobody is disputing that. But I fail to see how you're going from "Worse than Divine Mind = Warrior"; it's a pretty huge leap to make. Divine Mind is actually (low) T4 - Even with all its flaws, it still benefits from the many advantages of psionics, particularly Expanded Knowledge. You also get Tap/Don Mantle to pick up things like Metamorphosis, or paying for a casting of Psychic Chirurgery.

But I digress, back to the Soulborn. As far as skills, its chassis is actually not that much worse than the Incarnate - 2+Int. Yet we all know how adroit they can be optimized to be. Granted, Soulborns are lower on the essentia side, but the bonus Incarnum feats help with that (most of them grant additional essentia just for taking them, reason enough to do so even aside from their other benefits - you can put those essentia into your soulmelds instead, nothing forces you to use it on the feats themselves.

TL;DR Tier 6 is way too low, you have to be actively trying to be bad to build them that crappily.


Incarnum would surely be more of a social norm I'd think if theres no alternative. To a degree you have to accept it as a society to be efficient and also not get steamrolled by outcasts/other societies that do, similarly to arcane/divine magic in a standard setting. The ease or commonality amongst a common class would be all DM discretion though.

Edit: Totemists would surely be outcast though

For those who know it exists, I agree. It really depends on the kind of timeline OP is trying to establish for this setting.

[Taveena]

The Soulborn has no real options that the Warrior doesn't, and the Divine Mind is placed into tier 6 without their spammable Astral Constructs. The Samurai at least gains a few unique options from its class features (Mass Staredown being the only really notable one), while all I can find for the Soulborn... I guess Fearsome Mask, but the save DC is going to be low thanks to being MAD as hell and the low cap. Necrocarnum Touch is basically a really, really ineffectual Eldritch Blast, and Necrocarnum Circlet is kinda hurt by your awful meldshaper level.

Like... I've had a few shots at building a Soulborn, and currently my main thought is using Fearsome Mask to attempt some kinda fear lockdown build with some other stacking fear effects. In the past I've tried to build what I percieved to be their strengths - a CG Drow Soulborn, TWFing with Hand Crossbow Focus, Shape Soulmeld (Incarnate Avatar), Crossbow Sniper, Dead Eye, and Sighting Gloves, but ultimately even then that's, what, 8 extra damage and +5 to hit over a Fighter? (Expanded Soulmeld Capacity for +2 damage/+1 to hit is... it's Weapon Focus, and that's not a good feat.)

I've rambled about the Soulborn's mediocre ability to be a charger already. I mean... I dunno. I do feel that the Divine Mind was undersold in the tier listings, but I also think that the Soulborn is weaker than the Monk and barely stronger than the Samurai (provided the Samurai entirely ignores their class-granted TWFing and just two-hands. Actually trying to make the Samurai TWF makes it considerably weaker.)

[supersonic29]

For those who know it exists, I agree. It really depends on the kind of timeline OP is trying to establish for this setting.

I suppose if you suggest its really unknown for some reason or maybe just introduced to the world, then yeah there's no real societal implications. I guess I was assuming posing the question about the spectrum of societies in this scenario implied its not a near unknown.

[Psyren]

The Soulborn has no real options that the Warrior doesn't, and the Divine Mind is placed into tier 6 without their spammable Astral Constructs.

I'm aware of where some folks have placed it, but to be blunt, the folks calling Divine Mind T6 don't have a particularly robust understanding of psionics or mantles, and I'd question their understanding of tiers in general for that matter.

Now, I strongly dislike the Divine Mind's fluff, and it is very starved in terms of PP, but as far as optimization ceiling the only NPC class in striking distance is the Adept. When you look at all the things you need in order to avoid being T6 or even T5 - things like being able to fight in three dimensions, bypass various obstacles, traverse various terrains, all while doing CR-appropriate damage - they're there. The limited PP and PK keep them more on the T4 end of that spectrum, but they're there.

But I digress, Soulborn. At low levels, I fully agree, it feels like a Warrior that took some incarnum feats and painted itself blue. But only a few levels in, you see the folly of that assumption - they are behind in opening their lowest chakras, but they do catch up and pass a non-meldshaper (e.g. getting both Throat and Waist, where a non-meldshaper would only have one of those.) On top of that they get more soulmelds and more essentia too. And as far as it being MAD, I'm not seeing it. Smite Opposition? Even if you dump Cha, that just drops you all the way down to a full-BAB to-hit, plus whatever your soulmelds and items are adding to that, and you're still adding your level to the damage roll. Soulmelds? You shouldn't be going for the saving throw ones anyway, but you use your Con modifier with those just like a Totemist, so I wouldn't call that MAD - you're a melee class, high Con helps you anyway. They aren't any more MAD than a fighter, and considerably less than a Paladin or Ranger, who are setting class features on fire without Cha or Wis respectively.

And lastly, the immunities do matter, especially in a setting like the one being proposed where there is no divine magic around. Between Planar Chasuble and Incarnum Defense, you can nearly have mind blank going at level 4.


I've rambled about the Soulborn's mediocre ability to be a charger already. I mean... I dunno. I do feel that the Divine Mind was undersold in the tier listings, but I also think that the Soulborn is weaker than the Monk and barely stronger than the Samurai (provided the Samurai entirely ignores their class-granted TWFing and just two-hands. Actually trying to make the Samurai TWF makes it considerably weaker.)

But a Soulborn is far better at two-handing than a Samurai. And it gets things, like flight, that a Samurai has no choice but to go to the wallet for.

[Kantolin]

If you ask me, soulborn being tier 6 is like people who put the favored soul in tier 3 - you're looking at a superior class and making judgement rather than judging the class on its own merits, which overall would hurt the tier system a lot.

I mean, if we are seriously comparing the warrior who spends all his feats on incarnum things vs the soulborn, I'd take the soulborn any day, as he has native access to the stuff and didn't need to set all his feats on fire to achieve this (plus he gets /bonus/ feats for this purpose), giving him a major leg up.

Soulborn are limited, but do enjoy flexibility - flight, helpful immunities, skill boosters, and other features are at their fingertips. And since they're already good at hitting things, they don't need to spend the focus that an incarnate does in boosting their to-hit or suck. And of course, power attack and leap attack and stuff are available - with native abilities that can help it stay online more easily, given again soulmelds.

I'm not saying the soulborn is /good/, just a lot less terrible than people seem to think it is.

Anyway, for the setting - I do think alignment would be more pronounced. You can more or less glance at a meldshaper and determine their alignment. Summarily, either people would care /more/ - and alignment wars would become a major part of the setting... or people would care a lot /less/, and the focus would be more on 'what do you do' rather than 'what alignment are you'. Still, people are prone to fight over pretty much any difference, so it'd probably be the 'care more' angle.

[jiriku]

A world with only incarnum would probably look a lot more like a stereotypical d&d setting. It might sound odd to say that, but remember that the traditional d&d world of medieval agrarian economies, knights, castles, sailing ships, and armies only really "works" so long as you plug your ears, shut your eyes, and scream really loudly every time someone starts talking about 5th level and higher spells. Without magic threatening to explode the religious, political, economic, and military foundation of the game world every time someone threatens to actually look at the implications of the spells, the generic d&d world can sail along much more smoothly.

[Taveena]

If you ask me, soulborn being tier 6 is like people who put the favored soul in tier 3 - you're looking at a superior class and making judgement rather than judging the class on its own merits, which overall would hurt the tier system a lot.

I mean, if we are seriously comparing the warrior who spends all his feats on incarnum things vs the soulborn, I'd take the soulborn any day, as he has native access to the stuff and didn't need to set all his feats on fire to achieve this (plus he gets /bonus/ feats for this purpose), giving him a major leg up.

Soulborn are limited, but do enjoy flexibility - flight, helpful immunities, skill boosters, and other features are at their fingertips. And since they're already good at hitting things, they don't need to spend the focus that an incarnate does in boosting their to-hit or suck. And of course, power attack and leap attack and stuff are available - with native abilities that can help it stay online more easily, given again soulmelds.

I'm not saying the soulborn is /good/, just a lot less terrible than people seem to think it is.


Soulborn, as far as I know, don't get Flight natively. Airstep Sandals and Incarnate Avatar are Incarnate only, and Manticore Belt is Totemist only. While Soulborns get more use from Airstep Sandals than non-incarnum classes, it's still kinda unclear as to whether they can actually maintain flight outside their turn. Their skill boosters aren't enough to make up for the fact they only have 2+int skill points per level and a terrible skill list, and their low cap screws them over. Flexibility, when it's 'In what area would I like to only be 5 levels behind instead of 10', doesn't feel like flexibility to me. The bonus feats are actually from a pretty bad list - thanks to many of them flat-up not stacking with soulmelds and being less flexible. The problem is that the Soulborn's few niches - which is to say, charging aided by Thunderstep Boots/Necrocarnum Weapon/Bluesteel Bracers, or some kinda fear build, if we're staying native - aren't powerful enough to let them contribute in combat to a meaningful degree... with their actual class features. They can, but their best tricks are ones the Warrior can do. So... I dunno. If a Warrior with native access to Flight and a Gaze that shakes enemies is what you're after... then yeah, I guess a Soulborn has that. But the Soulborn is so unfocused, just like the Samurai, that its intended role besides 'smack guys with a stick' is very unclear. And they just aren't much better at stick-smacking than a Warrior.

I mean, I'd be happy to be proved wrong, if someone can throw together a Soulborn skillmonkey.The skills they can get a bonus on are Heal/Survival, Sleight of Hand/Bluff (which doesn't scale with invested essentia), Handle Animal/Ride, Swim/Profession (Sailor)/Use Rope, Bluff/Diplomacy, and Gather Information/Search/Sense Motive. Of these, Heal, Handle Animal, Ride, Swim, Profession (Sailor), and ONE of Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate/Gather Information are class. But with 2+int skill points per level, and a maximum of a +16 bonus to a skill check from class features at 20 with a feat investment (where Skill Focus would actually be better choice...) it's hard to see how it could be done.

[supersonic29]

A world with only incarnum would probably look a lot more like a stereotypical d&d setting. It might sound odd to say that, but remember that the traditional d&d world of medieval agrarian economies, knights, castles, sailing ships, and armies only really "works" so long as you plug your ears, shut your eyes, and scream really loudly every time someone starts talking about 5th level and higher spells. Without magic threatening to explode the religious, political, economic, and military foundation of the game world every time someone threatens to actually look at the implications of the spells, the generic d&d world can sail along much more smoothly.

This is the most interesting, thought-provoking thing I've read all day.

[Taveena]

This is the most interesting, thought-provoking thing I've read all day.

... It's true, for what it's worth. D&D tends to forget the far-reaching impact magic actually HAS on the setting (a la Tippyverse). One without casters, or magic items that replicate spells, would... be much more like what they actually intended it to be.

[Psyren]

But the Soulborn is so unfocused, just like the Samurai, that its intended role besides 'smack guys with a stick' is very unclear. And they just aren't much better at stick-smacking than a Warrior.

You yourself proved the latter statement to be wrong. Every soulmeld they get in-class is one that a Warrior has to buy with feats. They get up to 10 essentia natively, which a Warrior would have a hard time buying. They get three chakra binds, and even if you argue that the "Open Chakra feats grant binds, that applies to them as much as it would to a Warrior, meaning they'd be closer to 6, plus they open multiple chakras at once instead of one per feat.



I mean, I'd be happy to be proved wrong, if someone can throw together a Soulborn skillmonkey.

You don't need to be a "skillmonkey" to get out of T6 though. You just need to "hit hard, and reliably get to your target so you can hit it hard" - that is T4. Or even T5, which is "have a chance of hitting hard or a chance of getting to your target by employing wealth."

[Grod_The_Giant]

The Soulborn has:

Full BAB, proficiencies, and a d10 HD
A couple bonus feats from a passable list
Bonus damage-- Smite, as well as things like Thunderstep Boots and Bluesteel Bracers
Resistances-- Incarnum Defense isn't great, but you've got plenty of decent defensive melds. You can pick up bonuses to any save, evasion, bonuses to resist illusions, immunity to energy drain, bonuses against mind-affecting effects, reduced ability damage, immunity to stunning and death effects, spell resistance, immunity to death effects...
Skill bonuses-- they're not great, sure-- maybe +6 or +8 at middle levels-- but it's better than most warriors get. FLEXIBLE bonuses at that. You can be a passable tracker one day, an acceptable talker the next, real scary the third...
Solid intimidation options (Fearsome Mask, Necrocarnum Shroud)
Plenty of useful effects. I mean, their melds let them:

Hit insubstantial enemies
Hide from divinations
Track
Animate a zombie
Speak any language they want
Water walk
Tactical teleport a few times per day
Pick up a bow and use it competently (bonus damage and Precise Shot, on top of a full BAB)
Buff everyone's initiative
Fight freely underwater
See invisibility and penetrate illusions
Use suggestion
Communicate telepathically (which, in turn, opens up Mindsight)


And let's not forget the biggest virtue of meldshapers-- multiclassing. One quick dip into Incarnate and/or Totemist adds a whole bunch of options, to say nothing of extra melds and essentia. Even if you don't do that, you get more out of Shape Soulmeld than anyone else.

Now, they don't have enough melds or essentia to do any of that WELL, or get them early enough to be satisfying, but they're miles past any of the T6 classes. I'd certainly put them on par with a fighter, maybe even a bit better. It doesn't take much to be a good damage-dealer (Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper will do you just fine, and you're no more feat-starved than any other melee class), and you (eventually) get native access to a whole bunch of options most low-tier classes can't touch without magic items.

[Taveena]

You yourself proved the latter statement to be wrong. Every soulmeld they get in-class is one that a Warrior has to buy with feats. They get up to 10 essentia natively, which a Warrior would have a hard time buying. They get three chakra binds, and even if you argue that the "Open Chakra feats grant binds, that applies to them as much as it would to a Warrior, meaning they'd be closer to 6, plus they open multiple chakras at once instead of one per feat.


And every soulmeld they get in class is crap. That's kinda my point. I'm not saying that the Warrior makes a better Soulborn than the Soulborn, I'm just saying that the Soulborn's class features are awful. As mentioned, at best with Shape Soulmeld (Incarnate Avatar) and three Incarnum Focuses, they're doing 5d4+15 extra damage on a charge attack and 15 while not charging. Which is just... not any GOOD, at 20. Okay, sure, the Warrior has NO damage increase, but I'm not arguing it's WORSE than the Warrior. Just that the difference is tiny at a level where both are able to, for example, Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper with a Valorous Lance for something like 160 damage per hit (with a conservative reading). Is that extra 27.5 damage enough to push it out of t6? I'd argue that it's not.


The Soulborn has:

Full BAB, proficiencies, and a d10 HD
A couple bonus feats from a passable list
Bonus damage-- Smite, as well as things like Thunderstep Boots and Bluesteel Bracers
Resistances-- Incarnum Defense isn't great, but you've got plenty of decent defensive melds. You can pick up bonuses to any save, evasion, bonuses to resist illusions, immunity to energy drain, bonuses against mind-affecting effects, reduced ability damage, immunity to stunning and death effects, spell resistance, immunity to death effects...
Skill bonuses-- they're not great, sure-- maybe +6 or +8 at middle levels-- but it's better than most warriors get. FLEXIBLE bonuses at that. You can be a passable tracker one day, an acceptable talker the next, real scary the third...
Solid intimidation options (Fearsome Mask, Necrocarnum Shroud)
Plenty of useful effects. I mean, their melds let them:

Hit insubstantial enemies
Hide from divinations
Track
Animate a zombie
Speak any language they want
Water walk
Tactical teleport a few times per day
Pick up a bow and use it competently (bonus damage and Precise Shot, on top of a full BAB)
Buff everyone's initiative
Fight freely underwater
See invisibility and penetrate illusions
Use suggestion
Communicate telepathically (which, in turn, opens up Mindsight)


And let's not forget the biggest virtue of meldshapers-- multiclassing. One quick dip into Incarnate and/or Totemist adds a whole bunch of options, to say nothing of extra melds and essentia. Even if you don't do that, you get more out of Shape Soulmeld than anyone else.

Now, they don't have enough melds or essentia to do any of that WELL, or get them early enough to be satisfying, but they're miles past any of the T6 classes. I'd certainly put them on par with a fighter, maybe even a bit better. It doesn't take much to be a good damage-dealer (Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper will do you just fine, and you're no more feat-starved than any other melee class), and you (eventually) get native access to a whole bunch of options most low-tier classes can't touch without magic items.

The problem is that their skill point limitations means they AREN'T a passable tracker, they're just slightly better than someone with no investment. I mean, okay, sure, you're going to spend one of your two skill points per level on Survival. Now you're a decent tracker, I guess, provided you also take Track.
Also, much as I'd like to give them credit for the Necrocarnum Zombie, remember that the HD for that scales based on Meldshaper level, which is half your Soulborn level. The defenses are nice, but they don't actually make the Soulborn more able to contribute, just less likely to suddenly STOP contributing. The Bonus Feats, similarly, aren't that good - they're mostly there to grant additional essentia, because the Insight bonuses don't stack with melds for the ones you might consider investing in for the full 24 hours, and because the situational ones lock that essentia in.

The defenses are definitely an advantage of the class, but because they don't render it more able to contribute, just like the Monk, it doesn't make 'em a higher tier. The thing is that the Fighter ends up being stronger BECAUSE of the bonus feats, and that's a bad place to be in.

Now, Fearsome Mask + Necrocarnum Shroud is a neat combo I hadn't picked up on before, but... I don't think it being a free action is enough. The Samurai has Mass Staredown with the option of Imperious Command, and that wouldn't get IT out of t6.

[Psyren]

And every soulmeld they get in class is crap. That's kinda my point.

I know what your point is - I'm saying it's wrong. They get plenty of decent options to pull them out of T6. I mean, seriously, T6?

Also, everything Grod said.

[Grod_The_Giant]

A +8 bonus is enough to reliably make average-difficulty checks. You're not going to be able to win an opposed check against someone of equal level, but you can, say, follow a man across firm ground a few days later, or improve people's attitudes a step. They're capable of doing one thing passably well (full attacks), and not totally useless when that's not enough. Are you going to tell me they're weaker than a monk, soulknife, or knight?

[Taveena]

I know what your point is - I'm saying it's wrong. They get plenty of decent options to pull them out of T6. I mean, seriously, T6?

Also, everything Grod said.


Yes, seriously, T6, because a Soulborn doesn't even shine in its own area (being a melee beatstick) due to its bonus damage scaling pitifully, its skill checks being woefully weak for any CR appropriate encounter, and its class features being frequently obseleted by magic items. (This actually comes up a lot in the Why Each Class Is In Its Tier evaluations.)

Now, if the Divine Mind is shunted up, then it may very well be t5. But it's unsynergistic, MAD, and generally clunky like the Monk, without any ACFs or value as a dip. It's a Samurai with some tiny skill bonuses that ultimately only function to get that Aid Another off on a friend who ACTUALLY invested in this. So while the border between low t5 and high t6 is unclear... it's definitely there, for me.

EDIT: The monk has ACFs and is a strong 1-6 level dip. The Knight has a clearly defined role which it's actually pretty good at.

... Soulknife, though, no, Soulknife is garbage. Even relative to the Soulborn.

[Enran]

I accept Taveena's challenge. Feats will be accounted for, but I'll be more original than to just spam Shape Soulmeld and turn it into a lesser version of the Incarnate skillmonkey; in particular, to the best of my ability I'll try to make it something uniquely Soulborn-y so it doesn't stink of "but the Soulborn part isn't doing anything so why is it there?" Wish me luck. :smalltongue:

Regarding the thread's topic, though, hm... I feel like there'd be a much greater legal emphasis in most places regarding coexistence between Incarnum-users of the various alignments. I feel like sectional guild unions would be pretty common, like how in some fiction with alignments there will be wizards in a tower split into various types of magic that often (but not necessarily) have alignment themes. Y'know, like in the Dragonlance novels, where wizards congregate into one tower but split into subgroups within the tower based on their robe color (which in turn corresponds to their alignment; Good wizards don white robes, Neutral ones don red, Evil predictably dons black).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Bah. You only need Strength and Con, like any melee character, and you can do perfectly acceptable damage with Power Attack/Leap Attack. You're a Warrior with a whole bag of extra resistances and petty tricks. Don't forget that T5 is "Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well." Sounds like a Soulborn to me.

[Taveena]

I accept Taveena's challenge. Feats will be accounted for, but I'll be more original than to just spam Shape Soulmeld and turn it into a lesser version of the Incarnate skillmonkey; in particular, to the best of my ability I'll try to make it something uniquely Soulborn-y so it doesn't stink of "but the Soulborn part isn't doing anything so why is it there?" Wish me luck. :smalltongue:

Hogod I hope you manage. I'd love to be proven wrong here - Soulborn's one of those cases where even when I try to build to its strengths the class itself has a negligible impact in whatever I churn out.


Regarding the thread's topic, though, hm... I feel like there'd be a much greater legal emphasis in most places regarding coexistence between Incarnum-users of the various alignments. I feel like sectional guild unions would be pretty common, like how in some fiction with alignments there will be wizards in a tower split into various types of magic that often (but not necessarily) have alignment themes. Y'know, like in the Dragonlance novels, where wizards congregate into one tower but split into subgroups within the tower based on their robe color (which in turn corresponds to their alignment; Good wizards don white robes, Neutral ones don red, Evil predictably dons black).

Huh. Interesting thought. I gotta wonder, though - are the "THEN LET ME BE EVIL" woobie-destroyer-of-worlds types supposed to get along with the Necrocarnates who are trying to find out exactly how many orifices a soul has?

There's a lot of variance possible even within that single alignment, and a Lawful Incarnate obsessed with honor and a Lawful Incarnate obsessed with THE LAW may not get along. It's... definitely a plausible situation but it's also just as plausible that the varying interpretations of Evil, Law, and Chaos will be incredibly self-destructive here.

[supersonic29]

This thread is on some major derail. Whether soulborn are tier 6 or 5 has no regards to societies in an incarnum-only setting guys :smalleek: not what Vrock is looking for.

[Taveena]

This thread is on some major derail. Whether soulborn are tier 6 or 5 has no regards to societies in an incarnum-only setting guys :smalleek: not what Vrock is looking for.

I mean, yes.
I'm kind of a stubborn prick when I get into a debate, and I'm sorry for the derail.

[Aleolus]

...I'm not seeing how Soulborn is MAD. You need Str for melee, Con for your HP and soulmelds and Cha for your Smite. That is less MAD than a Pally or Monk is, and no worse than most other PHB classes

[Enran]

This thread is on some major derail. Whether soulborn are tier 6 or 5 has no regards to societies in an incarnum-only setting guys :smalleek: not what Vrock is looking for.
Hey, Vrock's the one who said he didn't post this in World-Building because mechanical discussion was relevant. :smallwink:

Come to think of it, the scariest thing about this world might be that ToB, even limited to the non-magical of its Maneuvers and Stances, would present the highest echelons of power. With just Incarnum and non-ToB mundane sources of power, the world would be almost completely locked into T4 and lower.

I guess the biggest question we need to ask is what happens to all those creatures with supernatural abilities not related to Incarnum. Obviously dragons aren't casting sorcerer spells and solars aren't casting as Cleric 20s, but what about other stuff? Like, do we still have Efreeti with their fire powers and Wish-granting, or Balors with their number of spell-likes and racially Vorpal swords?

EDIT: Come to think of it, Soulborns also might get another advantage in this world specifically. If Ironsoul Forgemasters are the only ones who can make magic items, and they can only make magic weapons and armor with pluses and a small variety of non-plus enhancements, Soulborn becomes capable of putting up defenses that pure mundanes can no longer "throw their wallets at."

... What the heck does anybody spend their WBL on in this hypothetical world?

[supersonic29]

Come to think of it, the scariest thing about this world might be that ToB, even limited to the non-magical of its Maneuvers and Stances, would present the highest echelons of power. With just Incarnum and non-ToB mundane sources of power, the world would be almost completely locked into T4 and lower.

I guess the biggest question we need to ask is what happens to all those creatures with supernatural abilities not related to Incarnum. Obviously dragons aren't casting sorcerer spells and solars aren't casting as Cleric 20s, but what about other stuff? Like, do we still have Efreeti with their fire powers and Wish-granting, or Balors with their number of spell-likes and racially Vorpal swords?

I think if you put monsters like that in your campaign/setting then you enable them to use those things as racial and make them supernatural instead of spell-like because spells don't exist. You might even place a ban on things with spell like abilities and have an exception list for anything the creator thinks should exist either by changing their ability(s) to (Su) or removing them. And as for dragons, you would likely just use non-magical and incarnum dragons.

Edit to your edit: That's true, even if they're lower than some other's in combat, they've got that going for them. And... adamantine junk? Potions if they exist?

[Taveena]

...I'm not seeing how Soulborn is MAD. You need Str for melee, Con for your HP and soulmelds and Cha for your Smite. That is less MAD than a Pally or Monk is, and no worse than most other PHB classes

Apologies for derail, but basically they need Int because of their 2+int skill points per level, Wisdom because bad will save unless Steadfast Endurance, and Dex because bad reflex save. Dex probably being the least important, due to heavy armor proficiency and a bloody massive health pool, but given the earlier comments about archery, Dex is also needed to be competent on that front. While it's true that they're not any more MAD than the Monk is, that's really not a flattering comparison - and the Monk's 4+int skill points per level, actually pretty solid skill list, and solid saves all round leave it in a weird position relatively.

A Soulborn, like a Fighter, has only a good Fortitude save and 2+int skill points per level, but with a higher dependency on Con and an implicit need for Charisma (for smites and party face-ing). Building a Soulborn as a Fighter with worse bonus feats is one way to go about it, but the Fighter is better at being a Fighter than the Soulborn is, which rather raises the question as to why you're playing a Soulborn.

If you're playing one for the versatility granted by the (minor) bonuses to various skills, you need that Int badly. Charisma is, as a result, probably the second-most-dumpable stat, just by virtue of only being useful for Smite and whichever Charisma skill your alignment gets, but losing smite feels like you're further ignoring the Soulborn for the class features and focusing on the chassis (which the Warrior almost has, bar an average of 1 HP per level).

ACTUALLY ON TOPIC: Are you considering the not-actually-Su maneuvers of the Crusader and Swordsage as magic for the purposes of being banned here? The healing and teleporting ones that nonetheless aren't Su.

[Blackhawk748]

Hey, Vrock's the one who said he didn't post this in World-Building because mechanical discussion was relevant. :smallwink:

Come to think of it, the scariest thing about this world might be that ToB, even limited to the non-magical of its Maneuvers and Stances, would present the highest echelons of power. With just Incarnum and non-ToB mundane sources of power, the world would be almost completely locked into T4 and lower.

Well heres another question: Are there Warlocks and Binders? While both are technically magic users, they are definitely not the normal ones. I can see Warlocks not being in this universe as they are still "Spellcasters" but Binders are definitely not casters in the usual sense. If Binders exist them and the ToB classes will definitely be the top of the heap.

My god Truenamers have a use in this world, Healers!!

[Psyren]

Bah. You only need Strength and Con, like any melee character, and you can do perfectly acceptable damage with Power Attack/Leap Attack. You're a Warrior with a whole bag of extra resistances and petty tricks. Don't forget that T5 is "Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well." Sounds like a Soulborn to me.

Correct again.

I'd say you could push them to T4 at higher levels when their essentia and soulmeld progression actually kicks in. But in no sane world are they down at 6 unless the person building them is phoning it in massively.