How To Use Knowledge Skills In A Completely New Land?

[Scorponok]

Hi giants,

Say you want to start a campaign where the main characters, for some reason or another, end up getting transported to a faraway land the entire party has never heard of or ever been to.

How do you handle the Knowledge skills?

In their own familiar land, a knowledge nature check would allow them to recall something about a creature or plant that they heard. Maybe they heard that things in a certain forest that have red leaves are edible and the plants with blue leaves are poisonous. With Knowledge nobility, they would recall that a certain nobleman likes wine from the Rolanberry Hills rather than Valley of Sorrows.

But in a completely strange land, how does it work? I'm thinking maybe it just wouldn't work. Unless knowledge skills is somehow part of divination and the gods somehow bestow this knowledge to them, but then that is probably not rules as written.

[OldTrees1]

In a new land you would combine general/abstract pieces of information to make educated guesses about this new thing.

Some dukes have preferences for their wine. Since dukes tend to be rather wealthy in comparison to their surroundings, it is likely that their patronage would result in notable prosperity. Thus if I see one winery doing noticeably better than the other, I can guess that would be the wine preferred by this local Duke. (and that is with my 0 ranks in the skill)

[Scorponok]

Hmm, ok, maybe I see what you mean.

So say, this party gets warped into an ice world. They see a large bear with spikes on its back. Back home, Dire Boars that also have spikes on its back are very aggressive, so they would deduce this is a Dire Polar Bear? If this Dire Polar Bear had a breath weapon, would a high enough knowledge nature roll allow them to know this information? (The Dire Boars at home do not have a breath weapon.)

The winery might be doing well in this new land but if this particular duke hated that particular wine when everyone else loves it, I can't see how a knowledge check could have them figure it out, no matter how high they rolled on it.

This is a temporary problem as once they start to meet people in the town and get a general idea of how things run, the DM can say a knowledge check is to recall bits of info they heard in casual conversation, but in the beginning, stranded in the wilderness and having not yet met any NPCs yet, I don't think rolling a knowledge nobility to try finding out who rules the area should yield anything. Unless it's via divination, but that wouldn't be RAW.

[Der_DWSage]

Yeah, that very much becomes a thing of 'I don't know about this particular thing, but I know patterns of OTHER similar things, and I can make a reasonable guess about most of it.' I'd say a penalty, rather than a flat no, is much more appropriate. Let me go through the list...


Knowledge(Arcana):Your magic is odd, but I've read enough theoretical magi-physics that I can guess that this is just a frostbite-imbued +1 Sword of Fire. Weird, but I guess it works for you guys!
Knowledge(Architecture):Wait, someone's actually using Knowledge(Architecture)? Wow. Well, support beams and load-bearing walls don't vary much...
Knowledge(Dungeoneering):Caves and spelunking doesn't vary much either.
Knowledge(Geography):I'm in a new place, but I still know that moss grows on the north side of trees, and between the way those hills are formed and this stream is running, I'd guess a town would be somewhere thataway to best accomodate the need for arable land, fresh water, and warmth.
Knowledge(History):...Yeah okay, give a flat no on this one. You got me there.
Knowledge(Local):It's a new town, but a town's a town and people are people. The barkeeper is probably even more likely to know what's going on around here, with it being cold and everyone wanting to warm up. I bet there's a bit of an underground too, and I'd wager I could find it by finding the most inconspicuous spot in a dark alley and knocking a few times.
Knowledge(Nature):So that thing has spikes on its back, and the inside of its mouth is blue. There's probably a reason for that, and things generally have spikes on their back to show how dangerous they are. Also, spear-shaped leaves tend to be less poisonous than triangle-shaped leaves, so let's try and use those. I could be wrong, but it's a good starting point.
Knowledge(Nobility):Again, someone is using Knowledge(Nobility)? Yeah, that probably gives a lot more 'Okay, I can probably tell their attitude and proper etiquette within a few minutes of meeting them' than flat knowledge.
Knowledge(Religion):While you won't recognize the local deities, you'll probably recognize the culture that springs up around them, and quickly distinguish the iconography to discern what their purpose is fairly quickly.
Knowledge(Planes):I'm assuming that you haven't gone somewhere that the planes themselves are changed. If you have, you're beyond any assistance we can offer.

[holywhippet]

Maybe give them a penalty on their checks for any instance where it would be overly new to them. Things like knowledge arcana might not be affected because magic is the same anywhere. But for other things it might be educated guesswork. Over time as they speak to people, read books and explore their new surrounding the penalty will reduce and eventually go away.

If you don't want them to be penalized much or for long, arrange for them to get hold of some books or a local guide so they can justify using their skill ranks. Keep in mind the knowledge skills aren't just flat knowledge but also are your insight into these things. Like if you spend a bit of time in a castle you could work out who the movers and shakers are with a knowledge nobility check.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Maybe give them a penalty on their checks for any instance where it would be overly new to them. Things like knowledge arcana might not be affected because magic is the same anywhere. But for other things it might be educated guesswork. Over time as they speak to people, read books and explore their new surrounding the penalty will reduce and eventually go away.
This seems about right. Either that, or ask that players not start with Knowledge skills that won't work in the new area-- that gives you a more organic "slow acquisition of knowledge" schtick.

[Strigon]

Knowledge(History):...Yeah okay, give a flat no on this one. You got me there.



You could make a few educated guesses; if not of specific events, you could guess roughly how advanced the local towns are, what technology is available to them, possibly even the system of government from that information.
Also, depending on exactly how isolated it is, there might have been fleeting contact a long time ago (I.E., these people are wearing blue dragons on their clothing and armour. A long time ago, marauders wearing the blue dragon crest invaded, but were driven off. These might be the same people, and if so, might be dangerous.)

[BowStreetRunner]

I think the answers I've seen so far in this thread have definitely hit on the right tenor. Knowledge is more than just facts, it also encompasses an understanding of underlying principles and concepts. Think of how paleontologists deduce the nature of a dinosaur just from its bones and comparison to known creatures with similar features. But while it is obvious that someone with a knowledge skill could deduce information about a creature from its apparent features, they can also do so by looking at patterns in the surrounding environment. Ecosystems have certain patterns that would be recognizable - for instance the need for a predator to keep certain populations of prey creatures in check. If a certain type of prey is present in moderate numbers then it is likely there is a predator exists with the adaptations necessary to hunt that particular prey.

Identifying a creature doesn't always mean you can pull up the encyclopedia entry for that creature, complete with its name and all relevant info on it. After all, someone had to write those entries in the first place. In the case of a creature previously unknown to the character's culture I would treat a successful knowledge check as

Being able to confirm that this is a new species;
Being able to classify this species according to Subtype if appropriate, or being able to confirm that this is a new Subtype if that is more appropriate;
Being able to classify this species according to Type if appropriate, or being able to confirm that this is a new Type if that is more appropriate;
Being able to recognize and identify any features the creature possesses that are also present in other, known species;
Being able to correctly place the creature within the local ecology, including being able to deduce the likelihood that it would have certain features that would be necessary to survive in that environment;
Being able to match the creature to local descriptions if the characters have heard such descriptions from the local culture, or else the characters are free to give it their own name until they can match it up with something more official.


For instance, if the party encounters a Huge white worm while in a subterranean environment a correct check might indicate that this is a new species of Magical Beast distantly related to Purple Worms and the absence of apparent visual or olfactory glands suggests it is highly likely the creature possesses some other sensory ability, very likely the tremorsense possessed by their purple cousins. The appearance of the creature's pharynx when it opens its gaping maw has similarities to the pharynx of a Frost Worm, so a sonic attack form is also very probable. Due to the large quantities of razor-sharp obsidian in the ground through with the creature digs it is also likely the creature has a significant amount of natural armor. Its appearance and behavior make it likely that this is the Pauloo-Chiss described by the local shaman earlier.