Does Redcloak remain loyal?

[Sloth of Doom]

A crazy what-if scenario for you to discuss:

What would happen if poor, misused Redcloak finally realizes how much working for Xykon just plain sucks (as hinted in comic 451)? Would the hobgoblins follow someone who actually showed he cared for them? Would the Orange army be enough to defeat a depleted Xykon, and if so would Redcloak set upon his own conquest for dominion, try to stop Xykon for the good of all goblins, or simply withdraw? How would this effect Azure city and the OOTS?

Just a though :smallamused:

[BobTheDog]

A crazy what-if scenario for you to discuss:

What would happen if poor, misused Redcloak finally realizes how much working for Xykon just plain sucks (as hinted in comic 451)? Would the hobgoblins follow someone who actually showed he cared for them? Would the Orange army be enough to defeat a depleted Xykon, and if so would Redcloak set upon his own conquest for dominion, try to stop Xykon for the good of all goblins, or simply withdraw? How would this effect Azure city and the OOTS?

Just a though :smallamused:

In his present state of mind, he won't withdraw. It would only further dishonor the fallen hobgoblins and all that stuff from comic #451...

[ABChristine]

I don't think that Redcloak is implying that he is unhappy working for Xykon (he is not a sacraficial minion, after all). I think he is simply stating an irritation for becoming like him. In the same context as a woman saying, "Oh my god, I am turning into my mother!"

[Sloth of Doom]

I was not trying to imply that Redcloak is on the verge of quitting, I'm speaking hypothetically.

...Oh God I'm turning into my father :smallconfused:

[Imrahil]

It would be easy for Redcloak to pull a double cross, considering that he has control of Xykon's phylactery.

[Kreistor]

Redcloak appears Lawful Evil to me. Xykon just landed Redcloak some major vengeance. That'll be worth some loyalty. Considering the Sapphire Guard has just been nearly annihlated (they're ghosts now), Redcloak just got major karma points. Xykon has earned Redcloak's loyalty for some time in the future.

[Gavin Sage]

Given the abuse he has already put up with Redcloak is in this for something more than being a normal hired gun. I mean Reddie could have killed Xykon already when the lich was in the phylactery. I personally wonder if the goblin is there under orders somehow, as its either that or the lich has some major hold on Redcloak.

[Axl_Rose]

I hope not - I want Team Evil to stand united and powerful

[Elliot Kane]

I honestly think Xykon & Redcloak work together because they share the same goals. Redcloak doesn't really like Xykon, and Xykon doesn't like anyone, but their relationship is strong and enduring regardless - which tells me they both stand to get a lot out of whatever they are ultimately planning.

[Kreistor]

I honestly think Xykon & Redcloak work together because they share the same goals.

Xykon's goal is controlling the Snarl. It isn't really something one can share and remain on good terms very long. Redcloak is wise enough to know that much.

[Ridureyu]

If Redcloak betrays Xykon?

Finger Of Death. Low saving roll.



*All my prediction sinvolve quick, agonizing deaths. You could ask, "Will Elan marry Haley?" and I'll answer, "She will coup de grace him for his gold."

[factotum]

Xykon's goal is controlling the Snarl. It isn't really something one can share and remain on good terms very long. Redcloak is wise enough to know that much.

Normally I'd agree with you, but it kind of depends how much power Xykon will get from controlling the gates of the Snarl's prison. If it jacks him up into godlike territory then sure, he won't really need Redcloak anymore, but if it's anything less he will still need Redcloak around as the planning brains of the outfit--I'm sure Xykon is intelligent enough to know that the plans he makes himself aren't always the best!

[Grasilich]

Do they really not get along? I mean, aside from hitting each other with snarky comments here and there, I've yet to see any reason to think that Redcloak hates Xykon (or vice versa).

I mean, hell, after Xykon diced a room full of Paladins with a bouncing ball, Xykon said "I can't wait to see the look on Redcloak's face when he sees this." And back in #376 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html), after Miko 'escapes' from the force cage, Redcloak says: "Further, can I just say that asking our friend in the dark to guard her was a masterstroke."

I personally think that Xykon and Redcloak are actually... you know... friends. Evil friends, sure... I mean, I think most people's friends wouldn't let them get beaten up by a Paladin just for kicks. But their friends nonetheless.

So yeah, I'll be disappointed if there's some backstabbing plot. Xykon and Redcloak = BFF.

(I should make that my sig...)

[DreadSpoon]

Finger Of Death. Low saving roll.

Death Ward.
Heal. Equally low saving roll, and lower hit-dice.

Anyways, looking at a classic cinematic (and thus D&D) staple, I wouldn't be half-surprised at all if Redcloak ends up being the main villain by the story's end. Xykon is almost utterly useless without Redcloak, but we have evidence that Redcloak isn't nearly as powerful - he can't be too many levels higher than the PCs, as he lost the Miko fight, and we know for a fact that Xykon is way more powerful than the PCs - so it's not a stretch to think that Redcloak is playing faithful sidekick just to use Xykon as his muscle (or, uh, sinew, at least, or whatever other fleshy bits are left).

[Elliot Kane]

Xykon's goal is controlling the Snarl. It isn't really something one can share and remain on good terms very long. Redcloak is wise enough to know that much.

It depends on what Xykon will do when he gets the power. He's said that he intends to rule the world, and that will likely mean he not only needs subjects but will also likely subjugate or destroy the traditional 'Good' races.

Redcloak may well see it as a chance for the Goblins to rise and take their place as masters of the world (Albeit under Xykon's rule).

[TreesOfDeath]

Redcloak works with Xykon to fufill his goals. He may also be planning something else.....

[Zaldrak]

What would happen if poor, misused Redcloak finally realizes how much working for Xykon just plain sucks
I think that Redcloak knows very well how much working for Xyxon sucks. He does it because he would not be able to fullfill his goals without him (and really, this is usually the main reason why evil characters work together).

[SPoD]

I really believe that whatever they want to do with the Gates requires both an arcane and a divine spellcaster. After all, they were BUILT by an arcane and a divine spellcaster working together (Dorukan and Lirian, respectively). Therefore, neither Xykon nor Redcloak can betray the other until their goals are already met and the Snarl is under their control.

After that, it may not matter. If Xykon rules the world but goblins become an elite ruling class, everyone's happy and why bicker over it?

[the_tick_rules]

it's a possibility he'll turn. might help AC

[Professor Tanhauser]

If Redcloak betrays Xykon?

Finger Of Death. Low saving roll.



*All my prediction sinvolve quick, agonizing deaths. You could ask, "Will Elan marry Haley?" and I'll answer, "She will coup de grace him for his gold."

Smash the phylactery, no saving roll....

[The Wanderer]

Smash the phylactery, no saving roll....

Except smashing the phylactery won't kill Xykon. After Redcloak does that, Xykon kills him, crafts a new one, turns to someone who witnessed it happen and says "Ok, now you saw what happens if you try that right? Good. Now hold onto this for me, would you?"

[Da Luniz]

A crazy what-if scenario for you to discuss:

What would happen if poor, misused Redcloak finally realizes how much working for Xykon just plain sucks (as hinted in comic 451)? Would the hobgoblins follow someone who actually showed he cared for them? Would the Orange army be enough to defeat a depleted Xykon, and if so would Redcloak set upon his own conquest for dominion, try to stop Xykon for the good of all goblins, or simply withdraw? How would this effect Azure city and the OOTS?

Just a though :smallamused:

Redcloak is the hobo chief atm anyways, not Xylon, so theyll follow him until someone deposes him

[bluish_wolf]

Except smashing the phylactery won't kill Xykon. After Redcloak does that, Xykon kills him, crafts a new one, turns to someone who witnessed it happen and says "Ok, now you saw what happens if you try that right? Good. Now hold onto this for me, would you?"

Why wouldn't it? The phylactery is an anchor for Xykon's soul. If it's destroyed, his soul will leave the prime material plane.

[The Wanderer]

I'm a D&D novice, admittedly, but I've seen it said over and over on these boards by multiple people that not only must the phylactery be destroyed, but so also must be Xykon's physical body. One without the other doesn't do the trick.

Of course I could be wrong, and I'll be the first to admit I don't have first hand knowledge one way or the other.

[bluish_wolf]

I guess if his phylactery was destroyed his soul would just go back to his body. I forgot how it works.

[lord_khaine]

there is nothing in the rules that says if you smash the phylactery Xykon will die, all they say is that if you kill Xykon it will reform him.

[Miraqariftsky]

I say that the destruction of the phylactery destroys the lich. What do I base this on? *Spoiler* One of the last chapters of Richard Lee Byers' "The Ruin" is about the final defeat of a lich, Sammaster. Suffice it to say, the heroes destroyed his phylactery, severing the link of his soul to his body. The body disintegrated soon after, if I remember correctly...

[Totally Guy]

I personally think that Xykon and Redcloak are actually... you know... friends. Evil friends, sure... I mean, I think most people's friends wouldn't let them get beaten up by a Paladin just for kicks. But their friends nonetheless.

I agree with the friends theory. Xykon can't make friends easily, Without Redcloak he'd be alone. Redcloak probably has an easier time in social situations however he has other duties both to his own Crimson Mantle role and to Xykon's operations.

[TiamatRoar]

Start of Darkness specifically states that it'll show why Redcloak puts up with Xykon.

Until then, however, I too also believe that the two are actually friends. I mean, really. Remember that time when the two were laughing together and Redcloak said "You should have seen the look on your skull!" That's really the sort of thing that shows the two are buddies. And the two probably have a lot of trust in each other. Xykon wouldn't have made Redcloak the keeper of his phylactory if he didn't trust Redcloak. Also, the phylactory is Red Cloak's HOLY SYMBOL. Of course, there are other possible reasons, but generally speaking, I'd think there's a good chance that Red Cloak allowing Xykon to use his HOLY SYMBOL as a phylactory shows that Red Cloak trusts Xykon as well (since Red Cloak is very serious about his religion from what we can tell, and thus probably wouldn't let just anyone use his holy symbol as a phylactory)

The fact that they can regularly insult each other without getting particularly mad at each other shows that they're friends as well, really. Strangers and underlings/bosses generally don't get away with those sorts of insults, but friends and family members often can.

Of course, you can be friends with someone while still not wishing to be like them yourself. Redcloak saying "I'm becoming like Xykon!" would be analogous to if Roy ever had to say "I'm becoming like Elan!"

[SteveMB]

Redcloak's personal goal appears to be revenge on the Sapphire Guard. Though Redcloak doesn't yet know it, Xykon accomplished quite a bit toward that end (yes, they've returned as ghost-martyrs, but Redcloak might still get considerable satisfaction from the fact that they died, and in a particularly ugly way).