How to deal with your frenzied berserker.

[Theodred theOld]

A discussion on another post made me wonder if there's ever been a thread listing all the various ways for a party to avoid being slaughtered by their berserker at the end of every encounter. I'll start.
#1.Have a flight speed.

[Hawkstar]

#0. Friends don't let friends play Frenzied Berzerkers.

[(Un)Inspired]

I'm not sure I understand. Why would a frenzied berserker slaughter their party?

[BowStreetRunner]

Make sure your Frenzied Berserker has a way to make that DC 20 Will save to end the Frenzy. Also, get everyone in the party an item of Calm Emotions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/calmEmotions.htm) that they can use.

[Brova]

1. Be Incorporeal.
2. Don't let them have a magic weapon.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I'm not sure I understand. Why would a frenzied berserker slaughter their party?

They run out of hostiles to kill before their frenzy ends.

[LadyFoxfire]

Have a way to make illusions, and keep throwing illusionary goblins at him until he calms down.

[Azoth]

Marbles or a wand of grease work wonders. Frenzy won't let him use Dex based skills, of which Balance is one. So once he falls flat on his butt, he can't get up or out of the area until frenzy wears off.

Make the Berserker buy a merciful weapon.

Make the Berserker take Steadfast Determination.

Getting a burrow speed with leaving tunnels can safely get you away from the Berserker.

[Sacrieur]

There's plenty of ways to deal with FBs.

The first of which is mind-affecting abilities.
The second is battlefield control (can't attack if they can't reach you).
The third is preventative, by giving them some form of DR all of the time so they don't fly into frenzy if they stub their toe.

[(Un)Inspired]

They run out of hostiles to kill before their frenzy ends.

Why are they using their frenzy around hostiles? Frenzied berserkers take levels in the class for the PA bump right? No ones actually dumb enough to actually start the adventuring day with any frenzy left. They all just burn it out smashing walls and chairs while their allies prepare spells.

[Sacrieur]

Why are they using their frenzy around hostiles? Frenzied berserkers take levels in the class for the PA bump right? No ones actually dumb enough to actually start the adventuring day with any frenzy left. They all just burn it out smashing walls and chairs while their allies prepare spells.

Maybe some players like being reckless.

[torrasque666]

Why are they using their frenzy around hostiles? Frenzied berserkers take levels in the class for the PA bump right? No ones actually dumb enough to actually start the adventuring day with any frenzy left. They all just burn it out smashing walls and chairs while their allies prepare spells.
The derision in this post is palpable.

I was gonna say use summons though. Lots of weak summons, probably gotten through using higher level Summon spells to bring a lot of lower level summons to the field. Berserker's gone crazy? eh. Surround him with celestial badgers.

[Psyren]

Why are they using their frenzy around hostiles? Frenzied berserkers take levels in the class for the PA bump right? No ones actually dumb enough to actually start the adventuring day with any frenzy left. They all just burn it out smashing walls and chairs while their allies prepare spells.

Eh, your allies carrying some marbles seems to me a small price to pay for +10 str untyped that stacks with the bonuses from rage. Plus the will save to end it early is a static DC, so just optimize that a bit.

[(Un)Inspired]

Maybe some players like being reckless.

Sounds the same as a sorcerer who includes their allies in the radius of their fireball. If players want to purposefully disruptive it's an OOC problem.

[Sacrieur]

Sounds the same as a sorcerer who includes their allies in the radius of their fireball. If players want to purposefully disruptive it's an OOC problem.

Making a player play his character how you want sounds purposefully disruptive to me.

[Psyren]

Sounds the same as a sorcerer who includes their allies in the radius of their fireball. If players want to purposefully disruptive it's an OOC problem.

Oh come on, it's a DC 20 will save. If the BSF is routinely failing that, your party has way bigger problems.

[Theodred theOld]

Wow. That got ugly really quickly. I think we need an item of calm emotions for this thread.:D

[(Un)Inspired]

Making a player play his character how you want sounds purposefully disruptive to me.

Surely we all expect players to play their character how we want on some level right?

For instance, wouldn't you want the other players at a table you played at to avoid trying to pick pocket or loot your character at every possible opportunity? Can you really say that you would be disruptive if you wanted them to stop assaulting your character?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Of course you shouldn't play a Frenzied Berserker without checking with the rest of your party first, but-- as has already mentioned-- there are decent ways of being careful. A wand of Grease is a good one; and worth having for other reasons to boot.

[Darrin]

I'm not sure I understand. Why would a frenzied berserker slaughter their party?

It's more of a question of "When", not "Why".

"Should she run out of enemies before her frenzy expires, her rampage continues. She must then attack the nearest creature (determine randomly if several potential foes are equidistant) and fight that opponent without regard to friendship, innocence, or health (the target’s or her own)."

Marbles and grease will buy you a round, maybe two at best, since a 5'x5' or 10'x10' square of difficult terrain is relatively easy to jump or crawl out of. You might have better luck with a wand of ice slick (Frostburn, 20'x20' square), which also requires an immediate Balance check for any creature in the area when the spell is cast. Grease starts with a Ref save, then only requires a Balance check if you attempt to attack or walk out of the affected square. Impeding stones (Cityscape) has a much bigger area (40' radius), but the FB can choose to make Ref saves instead of Balance checks.

[jiriku]

Surely we all expect players to play their character how we want on some level right?

For instance, wouldn't you want the other players at a table you played at to avoid trying to pick pocket or loot your character at every possible opportunity? Can you really say that you would be disruptive if you wanted them to stop assaulting your character?

I think I would stop short of telling players not to use their beneficial class features. To be in extremely good taste, I'd also avoid telling the internet that people who use the feature are dumb. But that's just me.

[Kantolin]

Here's a tactic: Also be a frenzied berserker!

Make everyone a frenzied berserker! Bring cohorts who are frenzied berserkers!

Or, to be less subtle, play a character who will kill anyone who tries to seriously attack him. Make this quite clear, and be quite friendly to people who don't want you dead, but once someone ('ally' or no) wants you dead...
(Of course, make sure you can accomplish this. A spellcaster is probably the best way to do so, but you can also do this via a rogue who gets away from the combat, waits for night when the threat is sleeping, and neutralizes the threat).

If you're being more polite, throw him out.

Of course, these are quite biased responses. I have very few outright banned classes when I DM, and frenzied berserker is high on that list. If you want to be powerful or get another multiplier on your power attack, please find a way to do it that doesn't encourage you to stab your friends (There are plenty!) I'm not okay with 'roll a d20, on a 1 you attack your friends', I'm not okay with the party rogue saying 'Well there's one enemy left, if I kill them the frenzied berserker will attack me', so I guess I'm screwed either way'. Nor, as a note, am I okay with the 'Well I don't like elves, so I'm gonna slit the party fighter's throat in his sleep' - those both go in the same ballpark of party unfriendly.

If I was running a party where PvP was okay and in fact encouraged, then the party would probably dissolve through the aformentioned throat-slitting-at-night nonsense anyway - I mean, when you discover you're traveling with a maniac who has a reasonable chance of flipping out and axeing you in the face when you need him most, most people will react to that in some way, and not everyone's response will be 'Oh that's okay, I don't want to change his character'.

Although an all-frenzied-berserker party sounds hilarious. I'd totally dump my will save in that scenario.

[Brova]

If you're going so far as to ban the class, why not just remove the bit about potentially attacking allies? That's not going to break Frenzied Berserker, and the class is a reasonably powered melee option.

[Kantolin]

If you're going so far as to ban the class, why not just remove the bit about potentially attacking allies?

That is a plausible option. Still, I've run into too many irritations with the frenzied berserker class as a whole; when people suggest it, I have taken to instead directing them to other options. If what you want is 'more damage', there are other ways to get at it, so I don't see frenzied berserker as a necessary niche.

This doesn't mean /bad/ options, mind you - there are plenty of damage-boosting melee classes out there, let alone tome of battle or psychic warriors or war minds or whatnot. This really isn't a power issue (Well, my problem with the class isn't a power issue; everyone has to fit the game's power level separately, but that's neither here nor there). My 'outright ban' list is quite small.

And of course, when I'm running a game, I am definitely open to debate. Frenzied Berserker is one of the very few things I am pretty strongly against, but I'm approachable. Still, like... there are plenty and plenty of other classes out there, use one of them.

[Azoth]

I have to chime in again here as I have played as and played with Frienzed Berserkers in a party. The class is not so much a walking TPK as people make it out to be. For the low cost of TWO feats that most Melee's wouldn't mind taking anyway (endurance and steadfast determination) and one of the big six items you won't fail that DC20 will save except on a Nat 1.

The other Will save of 10+damage taken, kicks it on when you would want it to anyway in most cases. When you take damage, and that is usually during combat. If a trap or environmental hazard kicks it on, then you subdue the FB until his next turn so he can force it down with that set DC20.

Another thing, how many FB players DON'T put merciful on their weapon? Every single one I have seen in play has done it before entering the PRC. Just in case everything hits the fan and they roll that Nat1. This solves the killing a friendly problem entirely. Sure you put them in a mini coma for a bit, but they are still alive.

[The Viscount]

The problem with solutions to be safe from a Frenzied Berserker is that your enemies can usually employ the same method to render the FB useless.

I came up with an alternative solution during the Iron Chef round for Anointed Knight. If you can spare the money, give the Frenzied Berserker a magic weapon that's intelligent. An intelligent item counts as a creature for Frenzy so FB will always attack it when out of targets. Assuming your FB doesn't have natural weapons, he defaults to unarmed strikes against the weapon, dealing nonlethal damage to it, which is negated due to construct traits. That simple.

[Aleolus]

What about Righteous Fury from BoED? Technically it specifies Rage, not Frenzy, but I would rule the abilities are similar enough it would still count

[Hawkstar]

For the low cost of TWO feats that most Melee's wouldn't mind taking anyway (endurance and steadfast determination) Six levels is not a low cost.
Those are feats that could instead be used for Shock Trooper and Jump Attack.

[(Un)Inspired]

I think I would stop short of telling players not to use their beneficial class features. To be in extremely good taste, I'd also avoid telling the internet that people who use the feature are dumb. But that's just me.

Isn't a rogues ability to put ranks into sleight of hand a class feature? If the rogue is using their beneficial class feature to rob you and you tell them not to aren't you telling them to not use their beneficial class features?

I agree about your point on good taste. I would never go around calling people on the internet dumb.

[Theodred theOld]

Also important to note that the berserker's damage potential drops considerably when he's not using PA. Just because he's attacking the party doesn't mean he's going to be all out and anyone who's in range is built for melee anyhow. Everyone else already flew away.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Spend a feat on Righteous Wrath from BoED. By incredibly strict RAW it probably does nothing (like literally...it does nothing), but by any sane reading, it exists for exactly the sort of scenarios as a frenzied berserker.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Steadfast determination is a solid feat choice for any melee character and feat starvation is what fighter dips are for. That and a +15 will save mod are all it takes to never threaten the party. As soon as your frenzy is triggered by a trap, kick off a rage too, that's 2 more points of con bonus and a +2 to will saves. Steadfast determination makes that con apply to will saves and between the two bonuses you go up to +19 and can't fail the save anymore.

Even without steadfast determination you can get to 1/400 chance of continuing to frenzy at the end of a battle. A will save at the end of the last round of combat and one at the start of your next turn if that one fails. If you only fail on a 1 that's 1/400 and you likely won't see 400 fights during a 20 level career. You also get to make two saves in a row for a trap, one on being damaged at the damage based DC and one at dc 20 as a free action after the frenzy is in place. The chances of turning on the party can be so trivially slim that I really never have seen the problem.

[Mage keeper]

if you want to deal with a frenzied berserker you need an half elf bard there is a ratital variant that give to the bard a bardic music with a calm emotion effect, the nice thing? The DC of these calm emotion effect it's equal to a performance check

[The Insanity]

Why are they using their frenzy around hostiles? Frenzied berserkers take levels in the class for the PA bump right? No ones actually dumb enough to actually start the adventuring day with any frenzy left. They all just burn it out smashing walls and chairs while their allies prepare spells.
They can't.

A frenzied berserker can enter a frenzy during combat.

[PersonMan]

No ones actually dumb enough to actually start the adventuring day with any frenzy left.


I would never go around calling people on the internet dumb.

Right. (Sure, in theory you're technically not calling people dumb, you're just saying that X group is dumb while in a space that pretty obviously contains people in X group. That's totally different.)

[Sian]

They can't.

It says that they can do it doing combat, not that they can't do it out of combat.

That said, the most elegant ways IMO are either a half-elf bard or an intelligent weapon

[DrMartin]

disclaimer: 3rd party material ahead!

Hyperconscious has the 2nd level power Psychic Bodyguard: it last 1 hour per level, and for the duration every time the target has to roll a will saving throw, the manifester rolls it instead.

So have the berserker invest part of his WBL in a psionic equivalent of an eternal wand with the power and have the party caster keep him constantly buffed with it (may require UMD if you don't have a psion)

[The Insanity]

It says that they can do it doing combat, not that they can't do it out of combat.
Can do it during combat.
Is it combat? No.
Can't do it.

[PersonMan]

It says that they can do it doing combat, not that they can't do it out of combat.

On the other hand, saying 'you can do X in combat' when it isn't in the context of a normally out-of-combat ability, implies that you can only do it in combat.

I personally think it's slightly ambiguous - you have a list of time when you can/do enter Frenzy, which implies that you otherwise can't, but there's no explicit 'you can't otherwise enter Frenzy' clause, IIRC.

[noob]

It depends whenever you try to use English or Mathematical evil lawyer.

[StreamOfTheSky]

They don't need to be in combat to enter it. Any time they take damage and are not in a frenzy (but have uses remaining), they actually have to will save to avoid going into a frenzy against their will. That could easily happen out of combat, often due to a trap. If anything, that's the scenario most likely to have the FB murder the party. When he didn't even want to be in a frenzy, gets forced into it by a trap, and then unlike in combat when done intentionally, there's no enemies to attack first and no advance warning for his allies to get away from him.

[Psyren]

They don't need to be in combat to enter it. Any time they take damage and are not in a frenzy (but have uses remaining), they actually have to will save to avoid going into a frenzy against their will. That could easily happen out of combat, often due to a trap. If anything, that's the scenario most likely to have the FB murder the party. When he didn't even want to be in a frenzy, gets forced into it by a trap, and then unlike in combat when done intentionally, there's no enemies to attack first and no advance warning for his allies to get away from him.

It's still a free action to stop the frenzy at a static DC. Free actions can be taken at any time during your turn, so just calm down during the surprise round.

And what is a FB doing up front triggering traps anyway?

[DrMartin]

And what is a FB doing up front triggering traps anyway?

he shows the rogue that he can find traps just fine, and disable them using only his face

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's still a free action to stop the frenzy at a static DC. Free actions can be taken at any time during your turn, so just calm down during the surprise round.

And what is a FB doing up front triggering traps anyway?

Presumably, the FB is the party's frontline melee guy, and almost certainly has the most hp.
So he'd be in the front of their marching formation. So he'd be the most likely party member to accidentally trigger a trap. Or if the party has a rogue advance at front with him looking for traps, he could miss one and then it's triggered. I've lost count of how many times a trap finder failed to find a trap on some door, and then the Big Stupid Fighter opened it.

[PersonMan]

They don't need to be in combat to enter it. Any time they take damage and are not in a frenzy (but have uses remaining), they actually have to will save to avoid going into a frenzy against their will.

This covers the 'take damage, enter Frenzy' portion of the ability, but doesn't mean they can always enter it - being forced into anger and just getting angry when in a peaceful field are different things, I'd say.

[Psyren]

Presumably, the FB is the party's frontline melee guy, and almost certainly has the most hp.
So he'd be in the front of their marching formation. So he'd be the most likely party member to accidentally trigger a trap. Or if the party has a rogue advance at front with him looking for traps, he could miss one and then it's triggered. I've lost count of how many times a trap finder failed to find a trap on some door, and then the Big Stupid Fighter opened it.

"Up front in marching formation" doesn't mean "up where the scouts are." And it sounds like the trap finder in your scenario isn't very good at his job.
Also, "rearguard" is a BSF position too.

But none of that invalidates the main point, calming down can be done at any time (1/round) and is DC 20. By the time you enter FB you should have a decent shot of making a DC 20 save. You can even rage right at the beginning of your frenzy (not an action) for the additional +2 will.

Of course, there's always the chance that the DM will constantly try to damage you out of combat to force the issue. This is a condition commonly known as "being a jerk."

[The Insanity]

You can even rage right at the beginning of your frenzy (not an action) for the additional +2 will.
Actually, you must Rage. Not Raging wouldn't be "attack[ing] those she [the FB] perceives as foes to the best of her ability".

[Psyren]

Actually, you must Rage. Not Raging wouldn't be "attack[ing] those she [the FB] perceives as foes to the best of her ability".

Good point - so you rage, and then, as a free action before charging an ally, snap yourself out of the whole thing with the help of the rage's will save bonus.

In a 3.P game, Pathfinder has a funny solution for this - the Figment (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/figment-familiar-archetype) familiar. So 1/day, if you fail that save, you can chop up your imaginary friend instead, and it will be back the next day as though nothing happened.

[Uncle Pine]

I second Psychic Bodyguard from Hyperconscious (and mention that even if it's 3rd party it's from the same guy that wrote CPsi), as well as Steadfast Determination.
A Warblade dip would also allow the Frenzied Berserker to grab Moment of Perfect Mind (can't fail on natural 1s and skills checks are way easier to boost than saves). Moreover, a novice ring of the Diamond Mind costs only 3.000 gp.

[Sacrieur]

I second Psychic Bodyguard from Hyperconscious (and mention that even if it's 3rd party it's from the same guy that wrote CPsi), as well as Steadfast Determination.
A Warblade dip would also allow the Frenzied Berserker to grab Moment of Perfect Mind (can't fail on natural 1s and skills checks are way easier to boost than saves). Moreover, a novice ring of the Diamond Mind costs only 3.000 gp.

You can't actually execute maneuvers or enter stances because it requires concentration or patience.

[Uncle Pine]

You can't actually execute maneuvers or enter stances because it requires concentration or patience.
They don't.

Unlike with spells or psionic powers, you need not concentrate to initiate a maneuver or stance.
But since you can't use Concentration during frenzy (sorry, I forgot about that) Moment of Perfect Mind can't be used to end a frenzy if you run out of enemies. However, you can use it to avoid entering in frenzy because of traps/etc. so it's probably worth a mention.

[(Un)Inspired]

Right. (Sure, in theory you're technically not calling people dumb, you're just saying that X group is dumb while in a space that pretty obviously contains people in X group. That's totally different.)

Fit yourself into any group you like. If people want to link themselves to something I said then I hardly have the power to stop them.

[Psyren]

Fit yourself into any group you like. If people want to link themselves to something I said then I hardly have the power to stop them.

Passive-aggressive meter going off the scale, cap'n! She cannae hold!

*smoke and sparks fill engineering*

[Gabrosin]

I came up with an alternative solution during the Iron Chef round for Anointed Knight. If you can spare the money, give the Frenzied Berserker a magic weapon that's intelligent. An intelligent item counts as a creature for Frenzy so FB will always attack it when out of targets. Assuming your FB doesn't have natural weapons, he defaults to unarmed strikes against the weapon, dealing nonlethal damage to it, which is negated due to construct traits. That simple.

This is hilarious. I love it.

[StreamOfTheSky]

"Up front in marching formation" doesn't mean "up where the scouts are."

Also, "rearguard" is a BSF position too.

So, the solution is to put the homicidal maniac further from the enemies, with the party in between, right next to the casters? I can see that going really well... :smallwink:


And it sounds like the trap finder in your scenario isn't very good at his job.

A lot of traps are really tough to find, and a "take 10" check might miss them. The party can't afford the time to take 20 on all search checks. Traps will sometimes get missed.
As a DM, I don't like to use out of combat traps much because it encourages a paranoia from the party that slows the game to a crawl, and don't favor really nasty traps (though it just takes a little damage to set a FB off). But plenty of other DMs are more "old school." And yes, I've seen plenty of rogues who aren't terribly optimized for trapfinding. They invested enough to not be accused of shirking their responsibility, and put most of their effort into other areas they cared about more. It happens. I don't blame them, finding traps is a crappy, thankless job.


But none of that invalidates the main point, calming down can be done at any time (1/round) and is DC 20. By the time you enter FB you should have a decent shot of making a DC 20 save. You can even rage right at the beginning of your frenzy (not an action) for the additional +2 will.

Why do you think a DC 20 Will save is so easy to make? It's a poor save for Barbarian and FB, and the Barb/FB has enough MAD that he can't afford a high wisdom score. Additionally, if the FB failed the DC 20 save against involuntarily entering a frenzy in the first place (in our hypothetical scenario), it's not fair to assume it'd be trivially easy for him to make the same exact save he just failed on the next round. He might well be frenzying for a while.

[Psyren]

So, the solution is to put the homicidal maniac further from the enemies, with the party in between, right next to the casters? I can see that going really well... :smallwink:

1) The casters have the easiest time stopping him as the last resort (wand of grease, calm emotions etc) so yes, it will go well in fact :smalltongue:
2) The idea is that, back there, there is little to no chance of him frenzying inadvertently. If he needs to close with something up front to melee it, that's where pounce and fast movement come into play.



A lot of traps are really tough to find, and a "take 10" check might miss them. The party can't afford the time to take 20 on all search checks. Traps will sometimes get missed.
As a DM, I don't like to use out of combat traps much because it encourages a paranoia from the party that slows the game to a crawl, and don't favor really nasty traps (though it just takes a little damage to set a FB off). But plenty of other DMs are more "old school." And yes, I've seen plenty of rogues who aren't terribly optimized for trapfinding. They invested enough to not be accused of shirking their responsibility, and put most of their effort into other areas they cared about more. It happens. I don't blame them, finding traps is a crappy, thankless job.

If there are traps in your game, then optimizing for them is part of your job. And failing to spot them simply means they will most likely affect you rather than the guys behind you.
If traps are not in your game, then the entire issue is moot and nonexistent.



Why do you think a DC 20 Will save is so easy to make? It's a poor save for Barbarian and FB, and the Barb/FB has enough MAD that he can't afford a high wisdom score. Additionally, if the FB failed the DC 20 save against involuntarily entering a frenzy in the first place (in our hypothetical scenario), it's not fair to assume it'd be trivially easy for him to make the same exact save he just failed on the next round. He might well be frenzying for a while.

Because he should be expecting DC 20 will saves from the enemies by level 6 too. If your melee is regularly failing a save to that, how is every fey and aberration and fiend (etc) the party comes across also not making you their witch (swap the w) and causing you to wreck the party anyway, regardless of build? And it only gets easier to make the higher you go.

[(Un)Inspired]

Passive-aggressive meter going off the scale, cap'n! She cannae hold!

*smoke and sparks fill engineering*

Is that what being passive aggressive is?

[Sacrieur]

Surely we all expect players to play their character how we want on some level right?

No. You can ask them, but don't expect it of them.



For instance, wouldn't you want the other players at a table you played at to avoid trying to pick pocket or loot your character at every possible opportunity? Can you really say that you would be disruptive if you wanted them to stop assaulting your character?

No, I wouldn't. Since that's immersion breaking.

It's been awhile since I've been only a player, but when I was, I didn't care if it happened to me. It was part of the game. It sounds like an IC problem to me. Your character will take notice and do something or he won't. It's no different than being pick-pocketed by an NPC.

---

Having worked extensively with the FB class, I can tell you that the core aspect of being a danger to everyone around you is part of the reason people choose the class, if not for its outrageous attack power. Limiting that robs the player of fully experiencing the class like it was intended. It's supposed to be dangerous to the party as part of the balance.

[Theodred theOld]

Having worked extensively with the FB class, I can tell you that the core aspect of being a danger to everyone around you is part of the reason people choose the class, if not for its outrageous attack power. Limiting that robs the player of fully experiencing the class like it was intended. It's supposed to be dangerous to the party as part of the balance.
Finally we get to the heart of it. Sometimes it's fun to be dangerous.

[AnonymousPepper]

I fully agree with Uninspired, even if he's coming off as a complete **** for no reason.

I'm sorry, there is no place at a table for a class with a class feature designed to be dangerous to your party, and I reserve the right to not want to have to deal with that when there's enough stuff trying to kill you otherwise in D&D. It's a matter of your rights end where other people's rights begin, and your right to play a badly designed class that no sane group of people would actually travel with whose sole purpose is to get a decent damage boost in exchange for potentially ****ing up the rest of the party does not trump my right to not get ****ed by another PC.

I am a GM who bans pretty much nothing at my table, and Frenzied Berserker will never be allowed. It's a God-awful mechanic that only serves to infringe on the right of the rest of the players to have a fun game.

[Sacrieur]

I fully agree with Uninspired, even if he's coming off as a complete **** for no reason.

I'm sorry, there is no place at a table for a class with a class feature designed to be dangerous to your party, and I reserve the right to not want to have to deal with that when there's enough stuff trying to kill you otherwise in D&D. It's a matter of your rights end where other people's rights begin, and your right to play a badly designed class that no sane group of people would actually travel with whose sole purpose is to get a decent damage boost in exchange for potentially ****ing up the rest of the party does not trump my right to not get ****ed by another PC.

I am a GM who bans pretty much nothing at my table, and Frenzied Berserker will never be allowed. It's a God-awful mechanic that only serves to infringe on the right of the rest of the players to have a fun game.

So I'm guessing you force your party to get along no matter what. No PvP and whatnot.

Sounds boring, but you can play that way if you want.

[Hawkstar]

I fully agree with Uninspired, even if he's coming off as a complete **** for no reason.

I'm sorry, there is no place at a table for a class with a class feature designed to be dangerous to your party, and I reserve the right to not want to have to deal with that when there's enough stuff trying to kill you otherwise in D&D. It's a matter of your rights end where other people's rights begin, and your right to play a badly designed class that no sane group of people would actually travel with whose sole purpose is to get a decent damage boost in exchange for potentially ****ing up the rest of the party does not trump my right to not get ****ed by another PC.

I am a GM who bans pretty much nothing at my table, and Frenzied Berserker will never be allowed. It's a God-awful mechanic that only serves to infringe on the right of the rest of the players to have a fun game.All this says is that the style is not for you. But, as a DM and not a player, who are you to say "I shall protect the group from the class that kills the party!" when the party is saying "Ooh, trying to keep Amy's Frenzied Berzerker pointed at the enemies instead of us sounds like fun! Also... Jake wants to play a 2e-style wild mage, but the 3e version is disappointingly lacking in "Chance to blow the party up" options. Can we get a crazy effects table?"

One of the reasons Critical Fumbles are such a common houserule is that a lot of people find them genuinely fun.

[Theodred theOld]

I once played a homebrew version of a wild mage type wizard. The DM for that campaign drew up a random effects table that turned out to be really amazing. At one point during a zombie fight in the dungeon I warned the party that I was going use burning hands. The BSF figured the safest place would be right behind me. So I rolled my percentile and let my spell fly and it fired off directly behind me, slightly toasting our beloved fighter. This single mishap created some of the richest rp we've ever seen with that group. Some players enjoy an element of danger or unpredictability in their PC and some groups are just crazy enough to allow it. While I do discourage PvP, I would never stop 2 willing PCs from duking it out if they want to. The real issue is OOC. The players in our group would never just kill another player's PC and no one who DMs would let things escalate to that point. DM fiat exists for a reason and when used subtly it can magically fix things like the FBTPK and make the game fun for everyone.

[Psyren]

I'm not even a fan of PvP myself. But I happen to think that +16 Strength before items can be worth the party building around a little. And "oh ****, Dave got hit by that trap!" can be a fun moment - I bet you can hear a pin drop while Dave rolls Will.