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Zhentarim
2015-09-18, 05:38 PM
How could a clumsy character be any good at diplomacy?

Draconium
2015-09-18, 05:55 PM
Since when does one need to be physically capable to be likable? Being a klutz doesn't make you less charismatic by any means.

Aetol
2015-09-18, 06:17 PM
Being charismatic doesn't mean being attractive or likable. It means, at the core, that you can attract attention to make others listen to what you have to say. Dexterity has nothing to do with that.

NecroRebel
2015-09-18, 06:47 PM
Stephen Hawking perhaps? Pretty much incapable of moving (very low DEX), but quite a likable man.

Heck, the "cute clumsy girl" trope exists - someone who regularly stumbles and has accidents, but is seen as more attractive as a result.

Strigon
2015-09-18, 06:57 PM
Charisma is just your ability to direct people's thoughts and actions in a certain way; nothing to do with your motor skills.
Certainly, if someone's constantly knocking your stuff over, you might like that person less, but that's nothing to do with their personality.

EDIT:

Professor X! Quite a likeable fellow, paralyzed below the waste.
Captain Picard, now that I think about it - he's getting on in years, not as nimble as he once was, but still very charismatic.

Fri
2015-09-18, 07:16 PM
As much as I hate referring tvtropes for anything, go to that site and search for "Dojikko"

Aetol
2015-09-18, 07:17 PM
Stephen Hawking has high Int. I'm not sure about Cha ; afaik he's respected for being a genius, not for being charismatic.

And an example of someone with high Cha who is definitely not likeable : Adolf Hitler. (Don't say Godwin)

Strigon
2015-09-18, 07:50 PM
And an example of someone with high Cha who is definitely not likeable : Adolf Hitler. (Don't say Godwin)

Actually, he was very well liked, from what I've heard. He was, supposedly, a very kind person in private.
People just don't like him 'cuz, you know. Holocaust.

Other than that, supposedly, stand up guy. So score one for charisma on Hitler.

Berenger
2015-09-18, 08:44 PM
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5c/Keyser_S%C3%B6ze_-_photo.jpg

JNAProductions
2015-09-18, 09:00 PM
The existence of this thread confuses me. What on earth do Dexterity and Charisma have to do with one another?

Strigon
2015-09-18, 09:20 PM
The existence of this thread confuses me. What on earth do Dexterity and Charisma have to do with one another?

That does seem to be the great question 'round these parts.

Ninja Bear
2015-09-18, 09:31 PM
The existence of this thread confuses me. What on earth do Dexterity and Charisma have to do with one another?

Guessing it's a parody of the "high INT, low WIS" thread.

JNAProductions
2015-09-18, 09:34 PM
That would make some amount of sense. Poe's Law, though.

Zhentarim
2015-09-18, 10:00 PM
Guessing it's a parody of the "high INT, low WIS" thread.

Bingo! Nail on the head.

Dimers
2015-09-19, 12:01 AM
Bingo! Nail on the head.

Parody noted. Gotta say, though, I know someone just like this. Crashes into solid objects, trips over her own toes. It doesn't matter because she gets other people to do things for her so she doesn't have to move. She's been effectively managing workgroups since about seven years old. :smallsmile:

Zhentarim
2015-09-19, 12:05 AM
Parody noted. Gotta say, though, I know someone just like this. Crashes into solid objects, trips over her own toes. It doesn't matter because she gets other people to do things for her so she doesn't have to move. She's been effectively managing workgroups since about seven years old. :smallsmile:

That's pretty cool, actually.

Raimun
2015-09-19, 12:16 AM
I've got a better one.

How could someone have high Str but low Con. It's possible according to the rules but I have a hard time imagining a Str 18, Con 3 character.

Heck, I can't think of any fictional examples.

Zhentarim
2015-09-19, 01:24 AM
I've got a better one.

How could someone have high Str but low Con. It's possible according to the rules but I have a hard time imagining a Str 18, Con 3 character.

Heck, I can't think of any fictional examples.
It is hard to imagine. Those 2 should lump together.

Dimers
2015-09-19, 01:43 AM
I would guess "spindly" belongs in the description, and probably "fragile" too. A body with wiry muscle and not much else -- hair/fur all fallen out, thin skin, shriveled organs, a fluttering heart. The muscles are drawing all the body's nutrients and energy to maintain violently potent movement.

Actually, I've seen an analog in Shadowrun 4e. There's one cybernetic mod that basically tell the body to move in all directions at once all the time. Then when the time comes to act, it just stops telling the body to move in most of those directions, and boom, instant full-force reaction. That sort of system is very draining, and I could easily see it causing so much physiological stress that the body barely works besides that supermotion.

Definitely not a common fantasy trope, though!

Nerd-o-rama
2015-09-19, 07:57 AM
In answer to the original question: **** van Dyke. (Sigh. RICHARD van Dyke then)


I've got a better one.

How could someone have high Str but low Con. It's possible according to the rules but I have a hard time imagining a Str 18, Con 3 character.

Heck, I can't think of any fictional examples.

Powerful swordsman with tuberculosis?

Aetol
2015-09-19, 08:08 AM
Bingo! Nail on the head.

Hmm. I need my Poe-dar updated.

hymer
2015-09-19, 08:11 AM
Powerful swordsman with tuberculosis?

His strength would drop quickly when he'd be unable to train due to his poor health.

McNum
2015-09-19, 08:20 AM
Pixie Barbarian? As big as your hand, wielding a sword as big as a bear. Fragile, but deadly.

hymer
2015-09-19, 08:32 AM
Pixie Barbarian? As big as your hand, wielding a sword as big as a bear. Fragile, but deadly.

A fairy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt) did it. :smallbiggrin:

Nerd-o-rama
2015-09-19, 08:45 AM
His strength would drop quickly when he'd be unable to train due to his poor health.

I was thinking specifically of famed and frequently fictionalized Japanese fencer/enforcer Okita Souji, who was renowned for his sword skill but was subject to fainting spells and died at age 24-25ish. Particularly, how he's portrayed in fantasy fiction, which is usually completely unbeatable in a straight fight despite being built like two sticks tied together.

hymer
2015-09-19, 08:47 AM
I was thinking specifically of famed and frequently fictionalized Japanese fencer/enforcer Okita Souji, who was renowned for his sword skill but was subject to fainting spells and died at age 24-25ish. Particularly, how he's portrayed in fantasy fiction, which is usually completely unbeatable in a straight fight despite being built like two sticks tied together.

I can't claim to know the fellow, but I'm fairly certain he was neither the strongest a human being can naturally be, nor at the same time the frailest health a human can naturally be.

Nerd-o-rama
2015-09-19, 12:26 PM
Probably not, but this is a hypothetical exercise. None of that kind of extreme exists in real life, mostly because these numbers are game abstractions.

Strigon
2015-09-19, 12:59 PM
AHA!
Darth vader; completely fragile without his suit, but still quite strong; strong enough to hoist a struggling man over his head.
Certainly, there's an argument to be made against this case, but I'd put him as strong but fragile.


Same goes for many people with extreme gigantism; Robert Wadlow was supposedly very strong, but his size made him suffer many health issues throughout his life.

squab
2015-09-19, 01:04 PM
Gigantism is probably the best example. I don't like the Darth Vader example - who's to say that it isn't his suit that makes him so strong as well?

Strigon
2015-09-19, 01:08 PM
Gigantism is probably the best example. I don't like the Darth Vader example - who's to say that it isn't his suit that makes him so strong as well?

That's what I meant by there being an argument for it; personally, I think it's just his conditioning, training and force abilities, but I agree evidence for that point is limited at best.

JustSomeGuy
2015-09-19, 03:35 PM
Hi cha, low dex... boris johnson.

High str, low con... me. Between juvenile asthma, eczema, short sightedness, two impinged shoulders (if i move them the wrong way the nerves get pinched and i lose sensation and strength for hours~days), a weird neck that randomly shocks itself into sudden acute pain upon most movements every few months (i fractured it years ago skiing, or rather falling down a mountain trying to ski), a chronic bicep tendon injury that has inhibited mucho training since january, i can't extend my right arm too much or it gets pretty sore (i puntured the joint capsule with a bunch of shattered china even longerago), intermittent pfps (patellofemoral pain syndrome, basically unidentified knee pain around the knee) and semi rehabbed 3 torn ligaments in my ankle, all in the right leg. Other than all that, i dabble with lifting and won the 110kg class of the navy and marine powerlifting championships about 5ish years ago, and if i'd entered this years army powerlifting championships, my lifts at the time (not my best, mind - see injuries list) would have placed me likely 3rd highest total, maybe even 2nd and no worse than 4th as long as i didn't get injured.

To be honest, i'd expect a lot of retired rugby players, american footballers, boxers, powerlifters, field athletes and the like to fit way better than that.

Keltest
2015-09-19, 03:50 PM
Gigantism is probably the best example. I don't like the Darth Vader example - who's to say that it isn't his suit that makes him so strong as well?

Nobody. It is his suit that makes him that strong. The robot body parts help too. But he also cant breathe normal air without dying his health is that fragile.

Nerd-o-rama
2015-09-19, 04:13 PM
The vast majority of Vader's body, both limbs and internal organs, is cybernetic, so his strength and health are both pretty machine-reliant. While he was a very strong man before getting laser-ginsu'd by Obi-wan, he was also a very robust one, so it's all pretty much the mechanical parts after that - note he can't stand on his own power after his systems get fried, either.

Strigon
2015-09-19, 04:46 PM
...note he can't stand on his own power after his systems get fried, either.

Well, that's mostly to do with the fact that:


He's wearing what is probably a several hundred pound suit
He can't breathe
He's seconds away from dying


Which tend to put a cramp on someone's style.

His legs aren't cybernetic, but he has no problem swaggering around in that suit of his.

Nerd-o-rama
2015-09-19, 04:56 PM
His legs aren't cybernetic.

Yes they are. He lost three limbs in one go. Combat Reflexes is a bitch when the GM doesn't understand how it works.

Strigon
2015-09-19, 05:00 PM
Yes they are. He lost three limbs in one go. Combat Reflexes is a bitch when the GM doesn't understand how it works.

Right you are.

I don't know whether I should feel ashamed that I forgot that scene, or proud that I managed to forget that scene...

Hawkstar
2015-09-19, 09:10 PM
To be honest, i'd expect a lot of retired rugby players, american footballers, boxers, powerlifters, field athletes and the like to fit way better than that.
Low CON isn't the same as a damaged body. Most of that list needs to be High-CON to survive their sports.

I can imagine High-STR, Low Con characters, and even made a race with +2 STR, -2 Con, +2 Wis for Pathfinder. They're bulky, but are susceptible to disease, and they don't recover from injury easily, with a lower "Shock Threshold" than most people.


Right you are.

I don't know whether I should feel ashamed that I forgot that scene, or proud that I managed to forget that scene...

Here's a better version of those events (http://irregularwebcomic.net/1125.html)

ThinkMinty
2015-09-19, 09:21 PM
How could a clumsy character be any good at diplomacy?

Cute n' clumsy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CuteClumsyGirl). Maybe their diplomacy is adorkably melting your heart with their fumbly antics?

Orcus The Vile
2015-09-19, 11:06 PM
I've got a better one.

How could someone have high Str but low Con. It's possible according to the rules but I have a hard time imagining a Str 18, Con 3 character.

Heck, I can't think of any fictional examples.

I think High str but low cons is like those martial artists that are strong but not very muscular. Like Jet Lee or any bishounen anime character that looks like a skinny teen boy but carries a huge sword.

And high con but low str is like those really big and muscular troublemaker NPCs that can't really put up with a fight and are there only to show how badass the skinny but strong character is.

Hawkstar
2015-09-19, 11:24 PM
I think High str but low cons is like those martial artists that are strong but not very muscular. Like Jet Lee or any bishounen anime character that looks like a skinny teen boy but carries a huge sword.

And high con but low str is like those really big and muscular troublemaker NPCs that can't really put up with a fight and are there only to show how badass the skinny but strong character is.
I think you have them sort of backward. The musclebound guy who collapses to a solid hit is High-STR, low-CON. Constitution doesn't necessarily have any visible signs in a person of near-average strength.

Jeff the Green
2015-09-19, 11:34 PM
I've got a better one.

How could someone have high Str but low Con. It's possible according to the rules but I have a hard time imagining a Str 18, Con 3 character.

Heck, I can't think of any fictional examples.

Not that extreme, but a lot of overweight people fit that category. In particular, I'm thinking of my brother, who could disassemble just about anyone but also has autoimmune issues, allergies, asthma, sleep apnea, and everything that goes along with being heavy.

Heck, I could be in that category if I cared more about strength. I can do weight training just fine, but I also have fibromyalgia, arthritis, and exercise-induced asthma, which make my endurance poor regardless of how much I exercise.

Milo v3
2015-09-20, 04:19 AM
And high con but low str is like those really big and muscular troublemaker NPCs that can't really put up with a fight and are there only to show how badass the skinny but strong character is.

As a High-Con, Low-Str individual I can say that is sooo not true of me :smalltongue:
Fit, never get sick (I have literally only been sick once in my life and it was a frigging cold), can hold my breath for a long time, can take a hit, and it's ridiculously hard for me to get even tipsy with how my body deals with toxins.... but I am weak as hell, with nearly no muscles, and probably have a strength score of 8.

Strigon
2015-09-20, 07:46 AM
As a High-Con, Low-Str individual I can say that is sooo not true of me :smalltongue:
Fit, never get sick (I have literally only been sick once in my life and it was a frigging cold), can hold my breath for a long time, can take a hit, and it's ridiculously hard for me to get even tipsy with how my body deals with toxins.... but I am weak as hell, with nearly no muscles, and probably have a strength score of 8.

I'm the same way... sort of.
I have a con score that's well above my str score; the problem is my str score is probably literally 1.
My con score, on the other hand, might even be all the way up to 8-9 :smallbiggrin:

Cikomyr
2015-09-20, 07:59 AM
High strenght low con would either be a powerfully built individual with a "glass jaw"; who cant take a hit.

Alternatively, he could just have lots and lots of nervous strenght. A very lean but powerful individual, but hardly bulky and unable to perform for extended periods of time.

Brother Oni
2015-09-20, 08:42 AM
Actually, I've seen an analog in Shadowrun 4e. There's one cybernetic mod that basically tell the body to move in all directions at once all the time. Then when the time comes to act, it just stops telling the body to move in most of those directions, and boom, instant full-force reaction. That sort of system is very draining, and I could easily see it causing so much physiological stress that the body barely works besides that supermotion.

I think I remember its 2e origin; it was described as a 'move by wire' system for the body which put the brain into a 'controlled spasm' wasn't it?


I think High str but low cons is like those martial artists that are strong but not very muscular. Like Jet Lee or any bishounen anime character that looks like a skinny teen boy but carries a huge sword.

I think you're making the mistake of equating only muscle bulk with toughness. A lot of martial arts (at least traditionally taught Chinese ones) involves conditioning which builds up your toughness, but you don't end up looking like a Dragonball Z character - take a look at Shaolin monks as an example.

A fictional example would possibly be Himura Kenshin from Rurouni Kenshin. Towards the latter half of his life, his body is falling apart as it doesn't have the muscle to support his fighting style (compare Kenshin (http://img02.deviantart.net/501b/i/2007/158/3/e/kenshin_himura_by_wslasher.jpg) to his master, Hiko Seijuro (http://orig08.deviantart.net/e95c/f/2011/019/0/f/seijuro_hiko_v2_by_roy_foxheart-d37k3oa.png)), although we're running into system abstraction issues as speed of movements and strength are interlinked in real life, but DEX doesn't allow for that level of granularity with D&D speed fighters generally being high DEX only.


High strenght low con would either be a powerfully built individual with a "glass jaw"; who cant take a hit.

Someone with a glass jaw would have been my description of high STR low Con.

Another possible example is Shishio Makoto, again from Rurouni Kenshin. Badly injured and covered in bandages, he's nevertheless capable of beating anybody he met except the protagonist of the series.

Dienekes
2015-09-20, 09:35 AM
I guess I'd also be under the high strength low constitution group. I've always been very strong, not JustSomeGuy strong, but going by the maximum load over the head thing I'd count as a 14-15.

But for my constitution, while I've always prided myself on my ability to take a hit, I am also sick multiple times a year, sometimes severely, and my endurance is crap. I don't think I can jog a half mile.

Lvl 2 Expert
2015-09-20, 11:50 AM
I've got a better one.

How could someone have high Str but low Con. It's possible according to the rules but I have a hard time imagining a Str 18, Con 3 character.

Heck, I can't think of any fictional examples.

Con is a bit of a weird stat. Most of the time you're using it to soak damage from weapons. Here it's good to be meaty, muscles can absorb blows. But con is also all forms of stamina, being able to set a good time in a marathon, being able to keep marching through the jungle for days at an end. It's also the ability to resist poison and diseases, a good immune system. All those other uses of the stat have only little to do with being muscled. If a bodybuilder spends an hour in the gym every day but uses all that time for heavy lifts with low numbers of repeats he or she is not going to build a lot of stamina that way. So I guess that's my entry for such a character: a bodybuilder without stamina who gets sick a lot. Maybe even step away from the body building thing and take a strong but very much overweight person. Yes, a lot of meat as protection, but a lot of stress on those joints, easy targets for massive damage. The bigger they are, the harder they fall...

EDIT: so what everyone else said. Gotta start reading better before I post.

Knaight
2015-09-20, 11:55 AM
I've got a better one.

How could someone have high Str but low Con. It's possible according to the rules but I have a hard time imagining a Str 18, Con 3 character.

Heck, I can't think of any fictional examples.

Con's a weird stat in general, covering a lot of minimally related things - wound resistance, stamina, poison resistance. Drinking a huge amount of alcohol without passing out and running a long distance without wearing out to the point where you have to walk are governed by the same stat, and that's just odd. Strength ties with each of these in a different way. It probably should help with wound resistance. It's not necessarily that useful for stamina, someone who can lift a huge heavy weight can't necessarily run a few miles. It's tied to poison resistance to some degree in that size is useful for both, but that's really about it.

There's a reason that it's not uncommon for other games to use a stat like "Body" for strength and a chunk of what is covered by Con and Dex, while the rest of Con and Dex get redistributed.

Joe the Rat
2015-09-22, 07:56 AM
Con's a weird stat in general, covering a lot of minimally related things - wound resistance, stamina, poison resistance. Drinking a huge amount of alcohol without passing out and running a long distance without wearing out to the point where you have to walk are governed by the same stat, and that's just odd. Strength ties with each of these in a different way. It probably should help with wound resistance. It's not necessarily that useful for stamina, someone who can lift a huge heavy weight can't necessarily run a few miles. It's tied to poison resistance to some degree in that size is useful for both, but that's really about it.

There's a reason that it's not uncommon for other games to use a stat like "Body" for strength and a chunk of what is covered by Con and Dex, while the rest of Con and Dex get redistributed.
HERO system (at least in the old days). Your starting Physical Defense score is based on Strength. (Energy Defense and Endurance are from CON, and both add to Stun. BODY was a separate stat (Strengthmeat helps resist damage, Body is damage capacity)

I think there's a bit of a tendency to over-focus on one element of a hodge-podge attribute, but let's pull some of these around for Con

Meat? Con is not Meat. Hit Points are not Meat. Hit Points are being able to take a hit, and Con reflects that through higher pain tolerance. Being able to push past the injury, to keep going when your body says "no more." A professional body builder weight lifter probably needs a highish Con score. Does that sound more mental than physical? Yup. Your wisdom score reflects the quality of your eyeballs, your Charisma probably reflects something of your appearance or quality of voice, and your Dex has as much to do with steady hands and the ability to lead a moving target than lightning reflexes, suggesting that to an extent the physical/mental divide on stats isn't as clean as you'd think. What else is based on Con? Concentration. Trained mental focus is based on a physical stat.

Then we get to the fun part of Constitution: Chemicals, Poisons, and Diseases. Con is your ability to deal with, ignore, or outright resist attacks subtler than a punch to the face. You can be built like a tank, and still become a sniveling wreck when you get a cold. You could have like no alcohol tolerance. You could be rough and tough and buff, but if you don't get your 6 hours on a comfy bed with the right foods to eat, you completely shut down. If you start to crack under the slightest physical duress outside of your training regiment, your Con score goes down. Play through a head cold, or rarely ever get sick in the first place? That's good Con.

Stamina can fall under Con, or under Str - Carrying capacity is a Strength thing, but your dead lift and your ability to tote 50+lbs of field gear are not a 1:1 thing. Being able to do that continuously? starts bleeding into Con. But it's not just your "keep going" factor. You also have your "get back up again" factor. You may hear health and aging people discuss organ reserves. This is your capacity to get back up to full power quickly. Extra hp from resting recovery based on Con? Being able to maintain a forced march which despite what you may think actually does include taking a breather once in a while? Yep.

This is where I give myself a decent Con score. I function well on low sleep, I rarely get sick, can eat pretty much anything, and though I dislike it, I actually can spend a day at physical labor, and be functional the next day.


On satirical topic, my CHA is middling at best. Good at making friends, not so much on influencing people, and rarely inspiring or persuasive.

PoeticDwarf
2015-09-22, 09:53 AM
How could a clumsy character be any good at diplomacy?

I don't see what you mean or why it isn't possible in any way!!?? :smallconfused:

tomandtish
2015-09-22, 01:59 PM
Con is a bit of a weird stat. Most of the time you're using it to soak damage from weapons. Here it's good to be meaty, muscles can absorb blows. But con is also all forms of stamina, being able to set a good time in a marathon, being able to keep marching through the jungle for days at an end. It's also the ability to resist poison and diseases, a good immune system. All those other uses of the stat have only little to do with being muscled. If a bodybuilder spends an hour in the gym every day but uses all that time for heavy lifts with low numbers of repeats he or she is not going to build a lot of stamina that way. So I guess that's my entry for such a character: a bodybuilder without stamina who gets sick a lot. Maybe even step away from the body building thing and take a strong but very much overweight person. Yes, a lot of meat as protection, but a lot of stress on those joints, easy targets for massive damage. The bigger they are, the harder they fall...

EDIT: so what everyone else said. Gotta start reading better before I post.

You've hit one of the classic examples right on the head. When I was in college one of our landlords was a bodybuilder. He was incredibly strong, but had no endurance to speak of. He and some of his fellow builders tried walking in a 5K event one year, and none of them could finish it without resting. This was apparently normal for the profession.

Roderick_BR
2015-09-22, 02:25 PM
How could a clumsy character be any good at diplomacy?
Don't try to juggle flamming chainsaws while talking to people.

ThinkMinty
2015-09-22, 02:46 PM
Don't try to juggle flamming chainsaws while talking to people.

This is solid advice.

hymer
2015-09-22, 03:08 PM
This is solid advice.

Except in 3.X, of course, where Diplomacy and Perform (Juggling) are governed by the same attribute. :smallbiggrin:

Aetol
2015-09-22, 03:25 PM
Except in 3.X, of course, where Diplomacy and Perform (Juggling) are governed by the same attribute. :smallbiggrin:

Not to mention the Exemplar PrC and its Persuasive Performance feature...

Storm_Of_Snow
2015-09-24, 07:00 AM
You've hit one of the classic examples right on the head. When I was in college one of our landlords was a bodybuilder. He was incredibly strong, but had no endurance to speak of. He and some of his fellow builders tried walking in a 5K event one year, and none of them could finish it without resting. This was apparently normal for the profession.
Indeed - they've over developed their muscles in comparison to the rest of their body, to the point where they can't get the lactic acid out of them quickly enough.

High Cha, low Dex? Pretty much every successful politician ever. Winston Churchill's probably not a bad example (he was a pretty good painter, but I can't see him ever juggling or performing backflips), Franklin Roosevelt could also be included. A good number of industrialists might also count (especially those who think Golf is the only sport in existence :smallsigh:), plus those actors and actresses who tend to play dramatic roles rather than action ones (say Patrick Stewart - given two of his characters already got mentioned).

Broken Crown
2015-09-24, 12:15 PM
plus those actors and actresses who tend to play dramatic roles rather than action ones (say Patrick Stewart - given two of his characters already got mentioned).

I don't think this is right. Many (most?) classically-trained actors learn fencing, breakfalls, and other techniques for not hurting yourself if your role calls for something action-y. On stage, you have to do your own stunts.

Mortimer, The Fantastics: "In my youth, I could die off a twenty-foot cliff – backwards!"

JustSomeGuy
2015-09-24, 02:57 PM
No doubt some won't agree, but i don't think falling over needs much dexterity.

In fact, the reason i smashed a plate into my elbow hard enough to keep it chronically injured over 15 years on was that i did a break fall on it. Actually, maybe that is evidence that some level of DEX is needed to fall over...

Aetol
2015-09-24, 03:56 PM
You definitely need Dex to fall over without injuring yourself...

JustSomeGuy
2015-09-24, 04:55 PM
Unless you've got a decent Con bonus? Frankly, i think Wis might be the culprit here.

Strigon
2015-09-24, 05:55 PM
I'd say Dex for letting you avoid getting hurt, Wis to avoid falling in a way you might get hurt, and Con to make neither of those things matter since you won't get hurt that badly.

They probably teach you not to fall in a way you might get hurt, though, so I'm assuming it's Wisdom.
(By that I mean, they teach you to consciously fall a certain way, not reflexively roll to break your fall.)

Dienekes
2015-09-24, 06:30 PM
Unless you've got a decent Con bonus? Frankly, i think Wis might be the culprit here.

Doing a safe fall is really a matter of timing the roll and twist of your body on impact. I'd say it's probably Dex.

That said every stage fight I've seen and been a part of requires the bare minimum of knowing what you're doing. Requiring only that you are competent enough to move your arm in a loose pattern. Maybe Dex contributes but I'd really place it as a Cha skill to trick people into thinking what you're doing is cool rather than a bunch of easy flash.

nedz
2015-09-24, 06:47 PM
Don't try to juggle flamming chainsaws while talking to people.

Surely that's a wisdom check ?

Socksy
2015-09-24, 07:12 PM
I'm low CHA, high DEX. It results in me being graceful and somewhat attractive until people actually hear me speak.

Zhentarim
2015-09-24, 08:07 PM
I'm low CHA, high DEX. It results in me being graceful and somewhat attractive until people actually hear me speak.

You seem like a nice guy.

Lvl 2 Expert
2015-09-25, 01:32 AM
Doing a safe fall is really a matter of timing the roll and twist of your body on impact. I'd say it's probably Dex.

That said every stage fight I've seen and been a part of requires the bare minimum of knowing what you're doing. Requiring only that you are competent enough to move your arm in a loose pattern. Maybe Dex contributes but I'd really place it as a Cha skill to trick people into thinking what you're doing is cool rather than a bunch of easy flash.

Tumble is (in 3.5) a dex skill, perform a cha skill. In 5E the DM would probably be encouraged to make the combination a dex (performance) check, where the result is dependent on your skill as an actor and your general agility. A clever rules lawyer might be able to get the opposite check out of the situation, cha (acrobatics), where one uses their skill as a dextrous athlete in combination with their inherent force of personality. The real question is what happens when you fail such a roll. Do you take damage, or is the audience simply unimpressed? Maybe we should just split this up into two separate rolls like we should have done from the beginning: one roll to break your fall, another to sell it. You need both dex (or con as a fallback option) and cha to pull it off, as well as both the related skills.

Hawkstar
2015-09-25, 02:34 AM
Tumble is (in 3.5) a dex skill, perform a cha skill. In 5E the DM would probably be encouraged to make the combination a dex (performance) check, where the result is dependent on your skill as an actor and your general agility. A clever rules lawyer might be able to get the opposite check out of the situation, cha (acrobatics), where one uses their skill as a dextrous athlete in combination with their inherent force of personality. The real question is what happens when you fail such a roll. Do you take damage, or is the audience simply unimpressed? Maybe we should just split this up into two separate rolls like we should have done from the beginning: one roll to break your fall, another to sell it. You need both dex (or con as a fallback option) and cha to pull it off, as well as both the related skills.

Making it two different checks screws up the probability curve something awful.

Storm_Of_Snow
2015-09-25, 02:55 AM
I don't think this is right. Many (most?) classically-trained actors learn fencing, breakfalls, and other techniques for not hurting yourself if your role calls for something action-y. On stage, you have to do your own stunts.

Mortimer, The Fantastics: "In my youth, I could die off a twenty-foot cliff – backwards!"
In role playing terms, actors would have class skills including Perform (Stage Fighting), Perform (Pratfalls) - where a negative bonus is just as good as a positive one because you flail around more and make it look better, get circumstance bonuses for the time rehearsing leading up to their performance (more take 2000 than take 20 :smallwink:), and have a class ability of Summon Stunt Double.

On stage, you may have to do your own stunts, but you're well trained, you maybe have to do one, two at most in a production, you're doing them every night - sometimes twice a night, and they're over very quickly. Movies can have weeks, sometimes months of training and rehearsal for the few bits the actors themselves will do (for instance, the cast of The Matrix expected to do a few weeks, but wound up doing months, while Ewan McGregor and Hayden Christensen spent months just practising for the final duel sequence at the end of RotS). As Dienekes said, it's more about being able to make it look good and not hurt yourself or anyone else - although that can still happen, for instance, the scar on Sean Bean's eyebrow came courtesy of a boathook wielded by Harrison Ford during the filming of Patriot Games.

Someone like Jackie Chan or Buster Keaton would have high DEX (TBH, Jackie Chan's probably carrying at least 15's in every stat :smallbiggrin: ), as would a dancer turned actor like Summer Glau (her fight sequences in Serenity and Terminator:SCC were choreographed as though they were dances so she could learn them much more easily, rather than as regular fights).

cobaltstarfire
2015-09-25, 03:11 AM
You definitely need Dex to fall over without injuring yourself...

No you don't, you just need to know how to fall, or alternatively be very relaxed, or a small child who's bones still are as much cartilage as bone.

Broken Crown
2015-09-25, 03:25 AM
On stage, you may have to do your own stunts, but you're well trained, you maybe have to do one, two at most in a production, you're doing them every night - sometimes twice a night, and they're over very quickly. Movies can have weeks, sometimes months of training and rehearsal for the few bits the actors themselves will do (for instance, the cast of The Matrix expected to do a few weeks, but wound up doing months, while Ewan McGregor and Hayden Christensen spent months just practising for the final duel sequence at the end of RotS). As Dienekes said, it's more about being able to make it look good and not hurt yourself or anyone else - although that can still happen, for instance, the scar on Sean Bean's eyebrow came courtesy of a boathook wielded by Harrison Ford during the filming of Patriot Games.

It sounds as though you're agreeing with me. You are agreeing with me, right?

Lvl 2 Expert
2015-09-25, 06:40 AM
No you don't, you just need to know how to fall, or alternatively be very relaxed, or a small child who's bones still are as much cartilage as bone.

On the other hand, the small child thing is also a bit of a myth. A toddler learning to walk doesn't get hurt much when he falls over because he's small, not so much because he's flexible. The kid doesn't just have the square-cube law working on his body (the one that says a small cat falling of a building might survive but a liger the size of a horse will land with a very satisfying splat), on top of that he's also falling from a much smaller height than an adult would have by doing the same thing. A child and an adult undergoing the same kind of acceleration (say in a wild fairground ride) are much closer to each other in their chances to get hurt than a child and an adult falling from wildly different heights. A hypothetical young child the size of an adult would probably not be much better at falling than most of us are at all, if not worse because of those weak bones.


Someone like Jackie Chan or Buster Keaton would have high DEX

Jackie Chan definitely uses perform as a dex skill. Nothing against his cha, but no DM worth his salt would let a character run down the sloping side of a building with a charisma check.

EDIT: On the other hand, now that I think about it... It's probably awesome enough that any good DM would allow it.

Storm_Of_Snow
2015-09-25, 07:22 AM
It sounds as though you're agreeing with me. You are agreeing with me, right?
Nope, sorry. It's lots of class skills (some of which probably don't even work off DEX to replicate what DEX would allow someone to do in real life) and circumstance bonuses around careful fight choreography and many, many rehearsals to compensate for a low DEX.

It's the same way that quite a few actors who appear quick-witted and voluble on screen are incredibly shy and reserved in person - without someone writing what they're going to say for them, and without everyone else around them allowing them their turn to speak, they're stuck.

Broken Crown
2015-09-25, 03:54 PM
Nope, sorry. It's lots of class skills (some of which probably don't even work off DEX to replicate what DEX would allow someone to do in real life) and circumstance bonuses around careful fight choreography and many, many rehearsals to compensate for a low DEX.

I guess we're going to disagree, then, since my own stage experience tells me otherwise. Again, I feel the need to point out that when you do something on stage, you're still doing it in real life; there are no stunt doubles, safety nets, or special effects to protect you. When you fall, your body is still obeying the laws of physics. A misaimed sword thrust can still cut or skewer you. I can't imagine why you would think that falling down without hurting yourself would be CHA-based, rather than DEX-based, just because you're doing it in front of an audience; you'd be hurt just as badly if no one was watching.

I'm not talking about Jackie Chan's Chinese Opera training, here – just basic safety techniques. They're not very difficult, but they're important, they're DEX-based, and no amount of choreography or rehearsal is going to replace them, because they protect you from things you're doing during the rehearsal of choreographed scenes.


It's the same way that quite a few actors who appear quick-witted and voluble on screen are incredibly shy and reserved in person - without someone writing what they're going to say for them, and without everyone else around them allowing them their turn to speak, they're stuck.

It really isn't the same thing at all. You flub your lines in rehearsal, no harm done. You mess up a breakfall or fight choreography, and someone gets hurt. No taking 20, here.

cobaltstarfire
2015-09-25, 04:33 PM
On the other hand, the small child thing is also a bit of a myth. A toddler learning to walk doesn't get hurt much when he falls over because he's small, not so much because he's flexible. The kid doesn't just have the square-cube law working on his body (the one that says a small cat falling of a building might survive but a liger the size of a horse will land with a very satisfying splat), on top of that he's also falling from a much smaller height than an adult would have by doing the same thing. A child and an adult undergoing the same kind of acceleration (say in a wild fairground ride) are much closer to each other in their chances to get hurt than a child and an adult falling from wildly different heights. A hypothetical young child the size of an adult would probably not be much better at falling than most of us are at all, if not worse because of those weak bones.



Well then you can ignore that part, doesn't change the fact that you don't need to be especially dexterous to fall without hurting yourself.

TheThan
2015-09-25, 05:54 PM
I have a good friend that’s 6’4; since height usually denotes strength its safe to assume he’s fairly strong. But he’s got garbage con, he’s always sick (having school age children doesn’t help either) so I can buy the idea of high str/low con.

Strigon
2015-09-25, 09:11 PM
I'm not talking about Jackie Chan's Chinese Opera training, here – just basic safety techniques. They're not very difficult, but they're important, they're DEX-based, and no amount of choreography or rehearsal is going to replace them, because they protect you from things you're doing during the rehearsal of choreographed scenes.


Personally, I still don't think it's a Dex requirement; you can have the reflexes of a ninja, but you still need to know how not to fall. If it were a standard tumble check, then Dex would still let you land on your feet, or catch yourself, but in this case you need to fall flat on your back/face because - as you said -there are no special effects here. Since you can't actually catch yourself, you need to rely on your knowledge of how to fall, rather than your reflexes to catch you.

All the reflexes and hand/eye coordination in the world still won't save you if you actually have to take a fall, and you don't know how.

Dienekes
2015-09-26, 11:39 AM
Personally, I still don't think it's a Dex requirement; you can have the reflexes of a ninja, but you still need to know how not to fall. If it were a standard tumble check, then Dex would still let you land on your feet, or catch yourself, but in this case you need to fall flat on your back/face because - as you said -there are no special effects here. Since you can't actually catch yourself, you need to rely on your knowledge of how to fall, rather than your reflexes to catch you.

All the reflexes and hand/eye coordination in the world still won't save you if you actually have to take a fall, and you don't know how.

That'd why Tumble checks are trained only.

Brother Oni
2015-09-26, 04:09 PM
A hypothetical young child the size of an adult would probably not be much better at falling than most of us are at all, if not worse because of those weak bones.

That said, greenstick fractures (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenstick_fracture) do heal in about half the time of a fracture of a calcified adult bone. A hypothetical young child the size of an adult probably wouldn't be able to stand since the bones probably wouldn't be structurally strong enough to support the oversized child (particularly if the body proportions are maintained with an oversized head).

tomandtish
2015-09-27, 07:10 PM
I have a good friend that’s 6’4; since height usually denotes strength its safe to assume he’s fairly strong. But he’s got garbage con, he’s always sick (having school age children doesn’t help either) so I can buy the idea of high str/low con.

Height sometimes but not always can denote Strength, and can certainly also indicate a constitution problem. This reminded me of a sad memory. A friend of mine in college suffered from Marfan's syndrome. He was 6'7" and 150 lbs. Wasn't allowed to exert himself at all (no sports, no PE, etc.).

Had a heart attack and died about 8 years ago at 27 years old.