Greenbound Summoning HD restriction?

[KingSmitty]

so the feat Greenbound Summoning basically applies the greenbound template to your SNA summons. Among the many different things it applies to the creatures, it gives them a +8 LA. Does this count toward the # of HD of creatures I am able to summon? It doesn't specifically call out for that however I am unsure given how broken the feat could be if it doesn't.

[eggynack]

No, LA is a character creation resource, and is irrelevant when considering what creatures can be templated. There is, in fact, no limitation beyond the one listed in the feat, that it must be an animal being templated.

[Rebel7284]

There is no limit to the number of HD of creatures you are allowed to summon.
The feat is ridiculously good in the early levels, to a point of being game breaking.
The author of the feat posted on a forum once that it was meant to be a +2 spell level metamagic feat, but that part was lost in editing somehow...

Anyway, as it stands, you just get the bonuses of the template, no drawback or limits.

[Crake]

There is no limit to the number of HD of creatures you are allowed to summon.
The feat is ridiculously good in the early levels, to a point of being game breaking.
The author of the feat posted on a forum once that it was meant to be a +2 spell level metamagic feat, but that part was lost in editing somehow...

Anyway, as it stands, you just get the bonuses of the template, no drawback or limits.

Well, the other thing is that, if you don't read the feat in a vaccuum, you'd realise that the feat is meant to be the reward of learning ancient secrets of lost civilizations, and as such should not really even be obtainable at level 1, but rather as a goal for your character to work toward discovering and learning over their career.

[KingSmitty]

Well, the other thing is that, if you don't read the feat in a vacuum, you'd realise that the feat is meant to be the reward of learning ancient secrets of lost civilizations, and as such should not really even be obtainable at level 1, but rather as a goal for your character to work toward discovering and learning over their career.

I think I'm going to use that interpretation in this game, because I don't want any concussions 2 sessions in.

[Kantolin]

As an alternative option, try speaking to the player who would like to take the feat. Mention that the feat is overpowered, or at least far too powerful for the game you're trying to run, and ask for suggestions on how the player would like to reign it in a bit.

Making it a +2 or +3 metamagic, giving it an expensive or plot-unique component, or just 'Oh okay, I'll take something else' can all happen from that.

(If the player is then one to whine incessantly, they'll probably just as whine when told 'Sorry you can't have this at start of game', so that may not bypass problems)

[Yael]

Well, the other thing is that, if you don't read the feat in a vaccuum, you'd realise that the feat is meant to be the reward of learning ancient secrets of lost civilizations, and as such should not really even be obtainable at level 1, but rather as a goal for your character to work toward discovering and learning over their career.

Even so, you see small-unexperienced level 1st venerable kobold dragon-wannabes running around and breaking games.

[Crake]

Even so, you see small-unexperienced level 1st venerable kobold dragon-wannabes running around and breaking games.

My point is DMs need to look at feats in context, and apply them as they were intended. Those players breaking games aren't doing so on their own, the DM let them have the feat, which, if they were using the feat as intended, they wouldn't have done so. The DM is well within his right to say "no you can't have that feat until you learn the secrets of greenbound summoning from the ancient civilzation of XYZ".

[eggynack]

Way I figure it, if the feat were intended to only be picked late in your career, after some quest, then that intention would be expressed mechanically. It would have been trivial to put some meaningful prerequisites on the thing, after all, and it would have been less trivial but doable to attach some special prerequisites that demand this quest of yours. The DM is indeed well within their rights to deny access to this feat, either until some requirement is met or completely, but to assert that this denial fits some perfectly known designer intent is inaccurate.

[chaos_redefined]

In fact, we have the designer saying that the feat doesn't do what he intended to do, because other designers editted it afterwards. He intended it to be a +2 metamagic.

I'd have attached a thing that said casting it spontaneously with that metamagic didn't break the casting time, but I'm nice like that.

[Crake]

Way I figure it, if the feat were intended to only be picked late in your career, after some quest, then that intention would be expressed mechanically. It would have been trivial to put some meaningful prerequisites on the thing, after all, and it would have been less trivial but doable to attach some special prerequisites that demand this quest of yours. The DM is indeed well within their rights to deny access to this feat, either until some requirement is met or completely, but to assert that this denial fits some perfectly known designer intent is inaccurate.

That's all mentioned under the "Ancient Feats" heading on page 6.