PDA

View Full Version : What to Use to Play a Dragon



Draconium
2015-09-18, 09:01 PM
So, I've always had an obsession a fondness for dragons. So when I started looking into monstrous races for D&D 3.5 and found out that the True Dragons had a level adjustment - and therefore, were playable - I was psyched. Until I realized just how badly level adjustment sucked, that is.

So, now that I've been here for a bit, I thought I'd ask the Playground. Does anyone know of a system that lets you actually play a dragon character without completely screwing you over?

Before anyone comments, just let me clarify. I don't what to play someone who can ride a dragon. I don't what to play someone descended from dragons. I don't want to play someone who uses draconic powers. I don't want someone who has a dragon from. And don't even think about suggestion Dragonwrought Kobold from 3.5. :smallmad:

No, I want suggestions on a system that lets you play an honest-to-goodness, no-holds-barred, no-cheese, flying, fire-breathing, gold-hoarding, princess-kidnapping, ten-ton mass of muscle and pure flaming fantasy fury. I don't want a "technically, it's a dragon." I want a DRAGON.

So, are there any systems for doing so? Please let me know, it would be much appreciated!

JNAProductions
2015-09-18, 09:09 PM
FATE, I think, would let you play as one.

JAL_1138
2015-09-18, 09:44 PM
I have absolutely zero firsthand experience with the sourcebook/box-set in question, and thus can't comment on quality, but Council of Wyrms for 2e had dragon-PC rules. The campaign/setting was built around it, really. And they meant dragons, not dragon-themed humanoids.

Or, well, there's always True Polymorph.

Illven
2015-09-18, 10:01 PM
So, I've always had an obsession a fondness for dragons. So when I started looking into monstrous races for D&D 3.5 and found out that the True Dragons had a level adjustment - and therefore, were playable - I was psyched. Until I realized just how badly level adjustment sucked, that is.

So, now that I've been here for a bit, I thought I'd ask the Playground. Does anyone know of a system that lets you actually play a dragon character without completely screwing you over?

Before anyone comments, just let me clarify. I don't what to play someone who can ride a dragon. I don't what to play someone descended from dragons. I don't want to play someone who uses draconic powers. I don't want someone who has a dragon from. And don't even think about suggestion Dragonwrought Kobold from 3.5. :smallmad:

No, I want suggestions on a system that lets you play an honest-to-goodness, no-holds-barred, no-cheese, flying, fire-breathing, gold-hoarding, princess-kidnapping, ten-ton mass of muscle and pure flaming fantasy fury. I don't want a "technically, it's a dragon." I want a DRAGON.

So, are there any systems for doing so? Please let me know, it would be much appreciated!

3.5 Monster gestalt games would let you play a dragon.

Draconium
2015-09-18, 10:05 PM
Council of Wyrms does sound right up my alley... but I've had bad experiences with 2e in the past. :smallsigh:

Greatly games are an option, but honestly, they aren't all that common. I wished they were, but oh well... If I can find one, I'd love to try it out.

Haven't tried out FATE. Looks like one of those more generic RPGs, though, the ones that are really meant to be used for almost anything... Right?

Kid Jake
2015-09-18, 10:20 PM
You could easily play a dragon in Mutants and Masterminds.

meschlum
2015-09-18, 11:27 PM
It takes a while to get to the point where you're a major threat, but Hoard (https://archive.org/details/Hoard-RPG) might appeal?

Daedroth
2015-09-19, 05:53 AM
So, I've always had an obsession a fondness for dragons. So when I started looking into monstrous races for D&D 3.5 and found out that the True Dragons had a level adjustment - and therefore, were playable - I was psyched. Until I realized just how badly level adjustment sucked, that is.

So, now that I've been here for a bit, I thought I'd ask the Playground. Does anyone know of a system that lets you actually play a dragon character without completely screwing you over?

Before anyone comments, just let me clarify. I don't what to play someone who can ride a dragon. I don't what to play someone descended from dragons. I don't want to play someone who uses draconic powers. I don't want someone who has a dragon from. And don't even think about suggestion Dragonwrought Kobold from 3.5. :smallmad:

No, I want suggestions on a system that lets you play an honest-to-goodness, no-holds-barred, no-cheese, flying, fire-breathing, gold-hoarding, princess-kidnapping, ten-ton mass of muscle and pure flaming fantasy fury. I don't want a "technically, it's a dragon." I want a DRAGON.

So, are there any systems for doing so? Please let me know, it would be much appreciated!


Option 1: Oslecamo Monster Clases (Homebrew, D&D 3.5)
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1045.0
Oslecamo has all of core dragons and somo others

Option 2: Play Legend (D&D derivated game, a great one)
http://www.ruleofcool.com/

Mastikator
2015-09-19, 08:28 AM
Are there any rules in 3.5 that specifically say players can't play as an actual dragon? You'd have to forgo leveling, but dragons do advance in HD, CR as they age.

DigoDragon
2015-09-19, 08:37 AM
I have absolutely zero firsthand experience with the sourcebook/box-set in question, and thus can't comment on quality, but Council of Wyrms for 2e had dragon-PC rules. The campaign/setting was built around it, really. And they meant dragons, not dragon-themed humanoids.


I've played that campaign. It was... complicated. I'd rather use a point-based character creation system to build a dragon PC.

LibraryOgre
2015-09-19, 08:47 AM
GURPS had a setting called Technomancer, which had a semi-similar idea to Shadowrun... only instead of magic coming back in 2011 and everything being cyberpunky, magic came back in 1944 and everything is modern, plus magic.

Anyway, one aspect of this is that the US got a clutch of dragon eggs, and raised them. And, if you want, you can play as a dragon. We played a game in Vietnam, where our group was entirely dragons in a Marine Aviation Wing (Zippo Squad: SEMPER FIRE!) We carried giant guns and terrorized the Viet Cong and frustrated our command.

TheCountAlucard
2015-09-19, 09:12 AM
Does anyone know of a system that lets you actually play a dragon character without completely screwing you over?Define "without completely screwing you over."

Would it "completely screw you over" if your powers were point-for-point less efficient than that of typical PCs, or if you had to start a little ahead of "typical PC chargen?"

Would it "completely screw you over" if you had to ask the GM's permission rather than blindly assume the person running the game feels your choice is in line with the tone and themes of the game he wants to run?

Would it "completely screw you over" if the setting already had something of a set of expectations for draconic behavior that wasn't perfectly in-line with yours (for instance, dragons being members of the bureaucracy of Heaven, which makes princess-kidnapping less-typical, albeit not impossible)?

Because if those are fine by you I'd be happy to suggest Exalted.

The Elemental Dragons are among the most powerful manifestations of the essence of the five elements of Creation - air, earth, fire, water, and wood. Some sparingly few elementals undergo a fantastical evolution that transforms them into a lesser elemental dragon - many of these are in turn given positions of some renown in the Celestial Bureaucracy of Yu-Shan, the Heavenly City.

The original Elemental Dragons were the children of Gaia, the Primordial creator of the five elements - they aided in the gods' war against the titans by imbuing ten thousand great mortal heroes with their blood. Other "lesser" elemental dragons came into being later, and at the urging of the original five, were given their illustrious positions.

Some have gone even beyond these limits - the Kukla is an Earth dragon of apocalyptic power, tens of miles long and thoroughly mad, but lies sleeping inside a dormant volcano deep beneath the sea; Gardullis is a Fire dragon coiled around the Daystar itself.

Let's check Exalted's dragons against your criteria:


No, I want… an honest-to-goodness, no-holds-barred…You'll want a permissive Storyteller if you want to play an elemental dragon, but the same can be said of a player wanting to play any drastically different splat from anyone else.


…no-cheese…This is gonna be another thing you'll need to clarify.


…flying…Check. Flight is something they can often do - even the ones without wings.


…fire-breathing…Check. Depending on your element of course. Some might instead spit steam, ice, lightning, scouring sand, lava, molten glass, poison, corrosive gas, or a cloud of flesh-eating spores.


…gold-hoarding…Check. Gold's not the typical metal of currency in Creation, but it's still a valuable metal. You're free to make your character a hoarder though.


…princess-kidnapping…Check? This is another of those "it's on you to do that" kinda things.


…ten-ton mass of muscle…Size will vary, but ten tons is reasonable.


…and pure flaming fantasy fury.I'm guessing you'll want to be a Fire dragon.


I don't want a "technically, it's a dragon." I want a DRAGON.Well, I think it's a reasonable fit.

If not, maybe loan your GM a copy of Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine, and explain what you want.

Draconium
2015-09-19, 09:21 AM
Define "without completely screwing you over."

Would it "completely screw you over" if your powers were point-for-point less efficient than that of typical PCs, or if you had to start a little ahead of "typical PC chargen?"

Would it "completely screw you over" if you had to ask the GM's permission rather than blindly assume the person running the game feels your choice is in line with the tone and themes of the game he wants to run?

Would it "completely screw you over" if the setting already had something of a set of expectations for draconic behavior that wasn't perfectly in-line with yours (for instance, dragons being members of the bureaucracy of Heaven, which makes princess-kidnapping less-typical, albeit not impossible)?

Because if those are fine by you I'd be happy to suggest Exalted.

If not, maybe loan your GM a copy of Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine, and explain what you want.

Geez,no need to be so rude. I was actually referring to your first point - but only your first point - being overall less effective than a typical PC. I don't need to be more powerful, but I think that if I want to play a dragon, then I should be at least as capable as a "normal" PC. The term "completely screwed over" was referring to level adjustment from 3.5 and the like, which makes it so much harder to play any non-classic PC race.

Also, if it wasn't clear - in which case, I apologize - my first post was meant to be humorous to read.

TheCountAlucard
2015-09-19, 09:44 AM
Geez,no need to be so rude.:confused:


I was actually referring to your first point - but only your first point - being overall less effective than a typical PC.The thing is, where does effectiveness enter into it? You'll have your advantages and your disadvantages, but the same is true of pretty much any set of options anywhere.

If you want to play a dragon in Exalted, you can (assuming the ST is okay with it), but it's hard to compare effectiveness because you won't even resemble a "typical PC" (but the same is true of playing a dragon in most any system). How do you compare a dragon to Heracles, Moses, Jubei, Gilgamesh, or Sun Wukong?


Also, if it wasn't clear - in which case, I apologize - my first post was meant to be humorous to read.My apologies then for not reading it as humorous. I get in enough arguments with certain other posters over my suggestions failing to psychically match up with the definition they're going by that only makes sense in their headspace (no, not naming names). >.>

Edited my earlier post to compare Exalted dragons to your criteria.

Draconium
2015-09-19, 09:51 AM
:confused:

The thing is, where does effectiveness enter into it? You'll have your advantages and your disadvantages, but the same is true of pretty much any set of options anywhere.

If you want to play a dragon in Exalted, you can (assuming the ST is okay with it), but it's hard to compare effectiveness because you won't even resemble a "typical PC" (but the same is true of playing a dragon in most any system).

I define effectiveness as being able to effectively keep pace, in any situation, with a baseline race and class. Such as classic PC races. I don't have an inherent problem with being asked to be start at a higher level, assuming the GM's okay with it, as long as the power level has been adjusted correctly. Which, in 3.5, it was not.


My apologies then for not reading it as humorous. I get in enough arguments with certain other posters over my suggestions failing to psychically match up with the definition they're going by that only makes sense in their headspace (no, not naming names). >.>

Edited my earlier post to compare Exalted dragons to your criteria.

I apologize for reacting as I did - my reaction there probably came off as rude. Guess I should practice what I preach.

Also, just to be clear, my description of dragons in the OP was just a basic, overall description of classic dragon traits. (With no-cheese referring to being someone who's not just a "technically" dragon to qualify for draconic features.) I don't need every single part of that, as long as it is what would be considered a true dragon, and it captures the overall feel of one.

TheCountAlucard
2015-09-19, 09:58 AM
I define effectiveness as being able to effectively keep pace, in any situation, with a baseline race and class.Exalted is a classless system. As for "races," only humans can Exalt, but the game also establishes that Rubber Forehead Aliens are human.


Such as classic PC races.I don't find it much fun to spend a lot of time worrying about how my character stacks up next to another, nor do I guess you'd find it satisfying. You're going to have a harder time picking a lock than a human, but at the same time, you'll have an easier time smashing down the door or blasting it to ashes. The same is true though when I play a martial artist or a sorcerer and compare myself to a thief.

ellindsey
2015-09-19, 10:06 AM
You could definitely build a Dragon with the Hero System Rules. Hero System is generally crap at emulating D&D style fantasy games, but it's great for making super-powered creatures with at-will powers like flight and breath weapons. I was actually considering building a silver dragon (who would spend most of the time in human form) for a Hero system superhero game that a friend was starting up recently.

Daedroth
2015-09-19, 10:16 AM
Also, just to be clear, my description of dragons in the OP was just a basic, overall description of classic dragon traits. (With no-cheese referring to being someone who's not just a "technically" dragon to qualify for draconic features.) I don't need every single part of that, as long as it is what would be considered a true dragon, and it captures the overall feel of one.

The more i read you, the more i think Oslecamo Monster Clases and Legend are for you.
Like you am a dragon fanboy entusiast and trust me, both capture the overall fell of one pretty decently and are a lot of fun to play.

Anonymouswizard
2015-09-19, 10:24 AM
FATE, I think, would let you play as one.

Seconding Fate. Not only can you play as a great big badass Dragon from character creation, even if you might have to give up Refresh, skill ranks, or Stunts to get the full fire-breathing and flying package. As extra fun, you should be roughly balanced with whatever the other players bring.

Yes, a High Concept of Big F***ing Dragon might be applicable basically in any physical situation, allowing you to spend Fate points on it fairly often, but you don't get many to begin with, and it's not the best Aspect for getting compels off of either (except maybe for 'you can't fit in here'). My suggestion is to take a 'Love of Treasure' aspect that should get you a good number of compels, while letting you invoke it to help identify shiny things.

And no, you will not be more powerful than the singing magical sword that hurts opponents by reciting awful poetry (that is my character concept if I ever manage to play in a fantasy game using Fate).

TheCountAlucard
2015-09-19, 10:31 AM
Chuubo's is also pretty flexible, hence my suggesting it earlier.

Vrock_Summoner
2015-09-19, 10:47 AM
Ars Magica does this exceptionally. If you can work out a compromise with the other players (or better yet, with their characters) such that you're getting your fair share of the vis (basically solidified pure magic), then yeah, you can play without getting screwed over in any way by being a dragon. If they aren't willing to let a non-human non-magus get their fair share of vis, you can also find your own and avoid their sharing system altogether, but that can get tricky if you're regularly interacting with the magi, who might try to kill you or steal from you to get more vis if you don't have a good relationship or provide an incentive for them not to do so. (Which is not to say this is always a losing situation; playing a dragon is different from playing a magus, and a bit harder, but when it comes down to brass tacks you're a towering serpent with inherent magic resistance, physical combat abilities to make the mightiest lions look like mice, and your own Powers to deal with what is ultimately a regular human with a wide variety of things to feebly bounce off your Magic Resistance.)

Still, if you can make the arrangement work, a dragon played in place of a human magus would be a lot of fun, as much as playing a magus. Thanks to the Might system, you are still reliant on the same substance as magi, as aforementioned; where magi need vis to perform ritual spells and enchant magic items and maybe boost the Penetration of their spells in really scary situations, you'll need vis just to learn and grow, at least if you want to stay independent.

Note that given how the mechanics for growth with creatures of Magic Might work, you do need to be careful what type of saga you play this in. High-vis sagas make everyone more powerful, especially you, since you can grow mostly unimpeded just like the magi, getting physically and mentally more capable, learning deep skills, and developing new Powers as the magi study their tomes and master their magic. In a game with low vis but an abundance of good books, on the other hand, the advancement of the magi will completely blow you away, as you're hoarding for several seasons just to get one decent chunk of XP.

... Unless you become somebody's familiar, which makes playing a Magic creature easier in many respects but also puts demands on your time and requires shudder emotional contact with a magus PC.

Also note that while Ars Magica is hands-down my favorite system of all time, it comes with some things many people don't like. It's long-term, with time measured in seasons and a rather sickeningly realistic rate of skill advancement in-character. It's classless and level-less, instead being focused around your character spending their time reading or practicing skills (or just receiving exposure to them in everyday work) to put XP in those individual skills. Also, while the game can in the deepest pits of theoretical circumstance be played with only your dragon character, in practice you'll almost certainly be playing with multiple characters, so if you want to be playing your dragon every single session you may be disappointed. Lastly, it's a narrative game, not a combat simulation game, and while there are combat rules (good ones, even) if you want to use them, it can still be distressing for some new players to know that their combat beasts have to share narrative spotlight with politicians and herbalists and the like who can't contribute anything in a fight.

If those things don't turn you away, I implore you to try it out. You won't regret it.

Anonymouswizard
2015-09-19, 10:58 AM
Also note that while Ars Magica is hands-down my favorite system of all time, it comes with some things many people don't like. It's long-term, with time measured in seasons and a rather sickeningly realistic rate of skill advancement in-character. It's classless and level-less, instead being focused around your character spending their time reading or practicing skills (or just receiving exposure to them in everyday work) to put XP in those individual skills. Also, while the game can in the deepest pits of theoretical circumstance be played with only your dragon character, in practice you'll almost certainly be playing with multiple characters, so if you want to be playing your dragon every single session you may be disappointed. Lastly, it's a narrative game, not a combat simulation game, and while there are combat rules (good ones, even) if you want to use them, it can still be distressing for some new players to know that their combat beasts have to share narrative spotlight with politicians and herbalists and the like who can't contribute anything in a fight.

My friend had his character get kicked out of the library. He was eventually let back in with the promises that a) he would not take any books away, and b) no fire magic in the library. This had the side-effect of limiting his ability to grow for a few seasons.

Other problems with Ars Magica: it's basically impossible to get the players to actually deal with stuff rather than spend the entire session roleplay reading books. Somebody else always has the paper you want. Nobody near me is willing to run it, and I really want to play a character who makes tons of magic items (so going to need Personal Vis Supply for that).

Vrock_Summoner
2015-09-19, 11:36 AM
My friend had his character get kicked out of the library. He was eventually let back in with the promises that a) he would not take any books away, and b) no fire magic in the library. This had the side-effect of limiting his ability to grow for a few seasons.
That's an amusing anecdote, but your own actions having consequences that indirectly result in slowed advancement (using fire magic in a library is generally not something you do without permission or a really good reason) isn't much of a critique against the system.


Other problems with Ars Magica: it's basically impossible to get the players to actually deal with stuff rather than spend the entire session roleplay reading books. Somebody else always has the paper you want. Nobody near me is willing to run it, and I really want to play a character who makes tons of magic items (so going to need Personal Vis Supply for that).
Correction, it's hard to get the magi to want to deal with stuff. Companions and grogs are pretty easy to motivate. As for magi, that's what Personality and Story Flaws are for. Or providing the possibility of receiving books or vis or political benefits for it. Besides, home roleplaying can be a ton of fun and advance the plot all on its own.

Nobody nearby wanting to play it is a valid concern. Ars Magica doesn't have the widest audience.

Milodiah
2015-09-19, 04:25 PM
May I suggest Rifts?



No, seriously, I actually rather like Rifts thank you very much. And it does have rules for playing as a dragon hatchling. And this is a game where you could TOTALLY play as an adult dragon, it just might be overpowered compared to the rest of the party. Note that I said might, I've killed a godling as a regular old smuggler before.

One Tin Soldier
2015-09-20, 10:30 AM
So, I've always had an obsession a fondness for dragons. So when I started looking into monstrous races for D&D 3.5 and found out that the True Dragons had a level adjustment - and therefore, were playable - I was psyched. Until I realized just how badly level adjustment sucked, that is.

So, now that I've been here for a bit, I thought I'd ask the Playground. Does anyone know of a system that lets you actually play a dragon character without completely screwing you over?

Before anyone comments, just let me clarify. I don't what to play someone who can ride a dragon. I don't what to play someone descended from dragons. I don't want to play someone who uses draconic powers. I don't want someone who has a dragon from. And don't even think about suggestion Dragonwrought Kobold from 3.5. :smallmad:

No, I want suggestions on a system that lets you play an honest-to-goodness, no-holds-barred, no-cheese, flying, fire-breathing, gold-hoarding, princess-kidnapping, ten-ton mass of muscle and pure flaming fantasy fury. I don't want a "technically, it's a dragon." I want a DRAGON.

So, are there any systems for doing so? Please let me know, it would be much appreciated!

I just so happen to be creating an entire game that you might be interested in (link down in my signature). It's a World of Darkness game, so you are playing a dragon in the modern day, hiding among humanity. This admittedly could violate your "not just a dragon form" stipulation, depending on your perspective, but I would love if you took a look.

ZamielVanWeber
2015-09-20, 10:55 AM
May I suggest Rifts?



No, seriously, I actually rather like Rifts thank you very much. And it does have rules for playing as a dragon hatchling. And this is a game where you could TOTALLY play as an adult dragon, it just might be overpowered compared to the rest of the party. Note that I said might, I've killed a godling as a regular old smuggler before.

Beat me to it. Some of the hatchlings are pretty strong too.

3.5 can do this by the way: a steel dragon wyrmling with loredrake is 3 caster levels behind a sorcerer (ouch, granted) but gets a pile of advantages from being a dragon.

paddyfool
2015-09-20, 01:11 PM
Fantasy Craft's Drakes work well out of the box from level one. The tricky part is finding a group who play FC, outside of maybe crafty games' own forum.

Draconium
2015-09-20, 03:02 PM
I just want to thank everyone for your suggestions! Daedroth, that homebrew you suggested is particularly catching my attention, as I'm more used to 3.5. I'll have to try that out soon - maybe I could get a chance on the PbP forums here?

As for the other systems, it seems Rifts and FATE are decently popular, so I'll have to look into those some more. Exalted also seems fun, though I think I'd play that for other reasons as well. :smallbiggrin:

TheCountAlucard
2015-09-20, 04:21 PM
(Be sure and also check out Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine, even if you get your dragon fix elsewhere; Chuubo's is amazing for forum-based games.)

Draconium
2015-09-20, 04:52 PM
(Be sure and also check out Chuubo's Marvelous Wish-Granting Engine, even if you get your dragon fix elsewhere; Chuubo's is amazing for forum-based games.)

Wait... what?

*checks on Google*

Holy crap, I didn't realize that was actually a thing. O.o Serves me right for assuming the name was a joke.

danelsan
2015-09-20, 04:57 PM
Do you need "I'm a Dragon" to be more or less the central aspect of the character? Because, since Chuubo is mentioned, I feel I should note that Nobilis would also accommodate a dragon, but the fact you are a dragon will be less important to some extent than the fact you would be one of the Nobles.

Simplifying things, you could say Nobles are godlike beings with power over an aspect of reality or that are based on that aspect of reality. It could be anything, from the more serious sounding stuff like Death, Time, War, Destiny, Nature, and so on, to seemingly silly stuff like Dogs, Chocolate, Fuzzy Feelings and Vacations. The game allows for both serious or more lighthearted games, no matter if you are going with powers like the first group I mentioned or the second (yes, you could have a super-serious, dramatic, dark-toned game involving the god of Musical Numbers or whatever).

And here is the thing: most Nobles were once normal humans, but they can really be anything: a robot, a sentient book, whatever. Or, yes, a huge, flying, fire-spewing, magical super-lizard. It is just that being a Noble will likely end up more important than being a Dragon, which will mechanically be justification for particular stats and advantageous characteristics you buy but ultimately not be THAT important when compared to a high-level Miracle.

Of course, make a dragon who is the Power of Dragons and you could split the difference, sort of like playing D&D's Bahamuth or Tiamat...as written by Neil Gaiman.

TheCountAlucard
2015-09-20, 05:06 PM
Wait... what?

*checks on Google*

Holy crap, I didn't realize that was actually a thing. O.o Serves me right for assuming the name was a joke.Nosiree. I wouldn't have tried to make a joke three times in one page without using at least one smiley. :smalltongue:

Jenna Moran's pretty brilliant; she also did a lot of excellent writing for Exalted. :smallsmile:

Rater202
2015-09-20, 05:33 PM
Do you need to look like a Dragon? Beast: The Primordial has two publicly available playtest drafts. In Beast, you play a monsterous Soul-an embodiment of Primordial Nightmares, incarnated in human form.

Your soul is a dragons soul, you take the form of a dragon in the dream world(Assuming you're projecting into the Astral. If you physically enter the dream world, you're only a dragon in your lair), you can have the fire breath, and the muscle, and the rending claws, and the centuries of wisdom, or the impenetrable hide, and the poisonous blood, or any other "dragony"power you can think of. Furthermore, Dragons are called out as a Monster that fits across the Beastial Families, so you can choose just about any of them and not be making the wrong choice.

But, in the meat world, you don't necessarily look like a dragon. Unless you achieve your inheritance, you look human. In the original draft(and hopefully the final draft) you are naturally a monster's soul in a human body-You are a dragon, even if you don't look like one, but in the second draft you're soul(which in WoD does not include your mind) was eaten and a dream spirit "Horror" took it's place and fused with you which...personally I didn't like, but the second draft had other good things so)

But, when you use your powers, humans with a kind of supernatural sense, or supernatural creatures like vampires and werewolves, they can all see the real you. You breath fire, most of the witnesses just see some guy breath fire, but the psychic sees, briefly, the Dragon in it's true form.

If you achieve inheritance, you can assume your true form, however. One involves destroying your lair in the dream world, forcing your soul into your body and warping it into a proper vessel for your soul. One involves your meat body dying,releasing your monstrous soul to wander the dream realm. And one involves reconciling your monstrous nature with your human origins, either by utterly subverting the typical monster narrative or by demonstrated your power and spreading your legend amongst as many people as possible in a way that can't quite be explained away.

All three have their drawbacks: The first, you're not as smart as you used to be, and are kind of caught up in the story. The second involves you, well, dying, you're stuck in the dream world, and IIRC there's not a lot of your human halve's personality left over, and the third is difficult and requires you to be very high powered(8+ power stat)

So, the first two are probably deal breakers on the "You're not quite as good as the other PCs ground) but if you're willing to wait a bit to bring the full brunt of your draconic power to bare, the third could be an option for you.

Also, if you like D&D 3.5, the one of the Wikis has a Homebrew class that slowly turns a humanoid into a True Dragon over the course of 20 levels (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dragonblooded_(3.5e_Class)).

squab
2015-09-20, 07:49 PM
If you play pathfinder and are okay with 3rd party material...

http://paizo.com/products/btpy98db?In-the-Company-of-Dragons

Their opening spiel (really? that's how you spell it?) about "not a half-dragon, not a pseudo-dragon but a DRAGON" is so similar to what you said that I half expected this thread to be an advertisement for it.

Do be warned that In the Company of Dragons has their own fluff for the playable dragons, but you could probably figure out how to ignore that if you wanted.

Zaydos
2015-09-20, 08:10 PM
My first go to for playing a dragon is to see if I can convince the DM that the fact that the Dragon Cohort feat lets you get a dragon cohort with an ECL of 1 higher than your character level/at -3 its normal ECL that this indicates that dragon ECLs are badly exaggerated and should be 3 less. This isn't actually wholly true (brass dragon is actually pretty balanced as is against tier 3s as a wyrmling but unfortunately gets comparatively weaker as it levels), for the most part it brings them to at least tier 4.

Failing that some of the dragon classes from the monster classes threads are among the best balanced classes in those threads (lots of them are down right broken), and are closer to a gish than tier 3/4.

Segev
2015-09-21, 09:02 AM
In Exalted, I would play a Raksha whose preferred form, role, and self-identity is that of a dragon. You are as real a dragon as you would be whatever else your Raksha claimed to be, since Raksha are...self-defined.

BESM, M&M 3e, and any other points-based system which even purports to be universal will support playing a dragon fairly well, though you may have to compromise on the sheer power and might aspects depending on how many CP are available to you.

In D&D 3.5, I would go for a white wyrmling or a pseudodragon and take Dragonfire Adept as my class. Talk to the DM about doing some judicious trading of a few of the class features (particularly bonus feats) that don't make a lot of sense with the race, perhaps, but in all it would be a very satisfying, well-balanced dragon build. My cohort in a Planescape game is the white wyrmling variant, and I talked the DM into letting me trade the native breath weapon for an extra d6 of damage when using the cold breath effect.

May I suggest Rifts?



No, seriously, I actually rather like Rifts thank you very much. And it does have rules for playing as a dragon hatchling. And this is a game where you could TOTALLY play as an adult dragon, it just might be overpowered compared to the rest of the party. Note that I said might, I've killed a godling as a regular old smuggler before.

I'm actually playing an adult dragon in a RIFTS game on Monday nights. "Oly" is a powerhouse, but a lot of the time cannot bring it to bear due to having to not advertise that he's a dragon. Also, I've noticed that the damage output of a dragon in RIFTS is high...on a human scale...but not all that high on a scale that even most humans fight in in the setting (as they use mega-damage armor and weapons, too). In fact, because an adult dragon has so many MDC (they're like hit points for that mega-damage scale I mentioned), but does so very little damage comparatively, it makes sense that dragons resort to aggressive violence against each other so easily. They could fight for half an hour and only get to the point where one of them knows that, if this goes on for another hour or so, he'll probably die. And when he retreats, it's hard to follow him even if the victorious dragon wants to finish him off, AND he'll be back to full health in a few hours.

In short, as long as your DM is not reliant on "you are near death!" to challenge the party and the PCs individually, a dragon is not too terribly overpowered in the RIFTS setting, despite the ludicrous amount of power it starts with at level 1.

Draken
2015-09-21, 11:59 AM
In Exalted, I would play a Raksha whose preferred form, role, and self-identity is that of a dragon. You are as real a dragon as you would be whatever else your Raksha claimed to be, since Raksha are...self-defined.



I would personally still favor making an elemental for this. Not just because you will in-setting be a dragon, but because Spirit Charms have some really interesting applications.

I built a vitriol dragon for instance, whose primary strategy was to grant his allies a spirit charm that is essentially a cheap perfect defense that turns the damage suffered into health/motes and then use his own breath weapon with wild disregard for friendly fire acid.

Not quite the combat monster a raksha can be, but a uniquely potent support character.

Rater202
2015-09-21, 12:00 PM
Not quite the combat monster a raksha can be, but a uniquely potent support character.

Non-Exalts in a Nutshell, everyone.

Draken
2015-09-21, 12:18 PM
Non-Exalts in a Nutshell, everyone.

There was this one thread a few weeks ago in this forum discussing if healing was evil.

And I was just reminded that long ago, I made a character that healed (and replenished motes) through the power of the Demon King's corrosive hatred made manifest.

VoxRationis
2015-09-21, 12:23 PM
So is this for a specific upcoming game, and you're looking for a way to balance a dragon against other, non-dragon PCs? Because if not, you could just try talking the rest of the group into all playing dragons, and then it really wouldn't matter what system you use, so long as it has stats for dragons.

Segev
2015-09-21, 01:16 PM
Oh! And there's an obscure, possibly out-of-print game out there called "Battle Dragons," by Spartan publishing, which is designed around build-your-own-dragon. To be honest, it's clearly designed as a tabletop brawl-type game for pitting your dragon against other dragons, but it has a fair portion of the book dedicated to a setting in which to actually role-play. The system is designed for dragons to be at the top of the food chain (appropriately enough), and is pretty easy to keep in your head once you wrap your head around it. There are a couple of fiddly bits that are hard to grasp initially, though.

Drascin
2015-09-21, 01:16 PM
You can pretty easily do a Dragon in M&M. It's just a matter of some creative power building. Some properly designed permanent growth (to represent size) and proper scores and firebreathing and stuff. Draconic flight costs a song because this is a superhero game and flight costs peanuts. Same with fire blasts.

Note that if what you want is the power trip of being a dragon while everyone else is a measly mortal, you probably won't get it, since by the nature of the game, if you're a dragon the other players are going to be people who can take a dragon head-on.

EDIT: In fact, I just went and built one for giggles right now in five minutes. Gargantuan size (thought going all the way to Colossal would be unwieldy), three modes of fire breath (normal cone, clingy napalm cone, and longer-ranged fireball that explodes), flight (I figured 50mph flight speed made sense for a giant flying lizard, but a couple more points can get it to 100 mph), ridiculously tough (can literally ignore all small arms fire, and totes around enough of a toughness modifier to save against pretty much anyone that is not really hitting that Power Attack), can swipe and bite and grab automatically up to three people (two foreclaws, mouth) and crush them every turn while continuing to do actions with its leftover extremities. Huge strength and constitution, good charisma and intelligence, crap dexterity and wisdom (dragons may be smart, but immense pride and tendency to kidnap the only people who will actually attract people capable of vanquishing you does not for common sense make). This leaves you with about 13 leftover points in a starter character to add a few skills and teak things as desired.

Note, it also has the dodging ability of a barn because, well, it's a giant bloody dragon. Master of the reflex save and dodge defense it bloody ain't.

This is just a five minutes character. I'm sure it can be refined greatly.

Tyrrell
2015-09-21, 02:40 PM
I also thought of Ars Magica in that their rules for dragons are more or less: Here are the Dragon rules do as you wish. It's an excellent choice if you're good with the way that time works in the game.

There is a game from FFG that is (I think) available as a PDF called Fireborn where you spend some of your time as a human in an alternate 21st century where magic is slowly returning and you are slowly changing into a dragon-like human and the rest of your time playing flashbacks to some ancient age where you get to play a full fledged no holds barred dragon.

goto124
2015-09-21, 09:33 PM
I also thought of Ars Magica in that their rules for dragons are more or less: Here are the Dragon rules do as you wish. It's an excellent choice if you're good with the way that time works in the game.

Dragon families?

AceOfFools
2015-09-22, 11:51 AM
I have a dragon PC in my Dresden Files game (not a true dragon, mind, but has the shape and attitude while being on a PC powerlevel).

Dresden Files is an urban fantasy Fate derivative, and he works fine there.

He does get out damaged by the combat monster mortal with a shotgun, and the weretiger, but can fly AoE breath weapon, and tank.

Overall pretty balanced.

Heliomance
2015-09-24, 03:43 AM
I have absolutely zero firsthand experience with the sourcebook/box-set in question, and thus can't comment on quality, but Council of Wyrms for 2e had dragon-PC rules. The campaign/setting was built around it, really. And they meant dragons, not dragon-themed humanoids.

Or, well, there's always True Polymorph.

I played in a campaign where the DM took the Council of Wyrms setting and updated it to 3.5. We played more-or-lless gestalt, Dragon HD on one side, classes on the other. LA was handwaved a bit seeing as we were all dragons. It wasn't quite full gestalt - HD size, saves, and the like were calculated from the class levels only, rather than the higher of that and the Dragon HD - but we got all the other benefits of being dragons. We levelled up three levels at a time, when we advanced to the next age category. I was a Copper Dragon Bard, we also had an Amethyst Dragon Psion, a Blue Dragon Wizard, a White Dragon Barbarian, a Crystal Dragon... something I forget, and a Druid that I can't remember what colour she was. It was hilariously good fun, and so overpowered. We treated dracoliches as ATMs, the Barbarian had an obsession with eyeballs, and if the Druid declared you "mean", well, it was all over for you bar the screaming.

We hunted down the largest kraken in the ocean to turn into paella, I nearly beat Garl Glittergold in a storytelling contest (stupid greater deities and their stupid always rolling natural 20s grumble grumble), we collected the autographs of all the Draconic gods, and ended up ripping a hole in reality to phone up Io and tell him he was needed back on the Material plane. If you can find a DM prepared to deal with that sort of power level, I heartily recommend it.