legally becoming a lich...

[1Forge]

So our warlock teifling was originally good-ish but recently attained a fascination with flesh golems, zombies, devouring of souls, and lichdom. I told him that doing that in a party with paladins would be difficult (he would have to justify every gradually more evil action) but so as not to be railroady i informed him that he could do all those things but to avoid paladin intervention in the party he would have to obey the laws given. So he is going to, well legally aquire lichdom and make zombies and flesh golems that gave legal consent. His alliby...science and as his defense an argument that smiting undead is discrimination versus him and others that identify as undead.

He is also utilizing a legal consultant from hell...what are your thoughts?

[rgrekejin]

This is supposed to be a parody of how Paladins act, not a how-to guide. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0228.html)

[1Forge]

This is supposed to be a parody of how Paladins act, not a how-to guide. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0228.html)

Yeah that's kind of what's going on here...totally forgot about that but yeah its eerily similar.

[MaxWilson]

That sounds a lot like "legally" acquiring nuclear weapons. I.e. it's probably not legal at all. There is no permit process for lichdom in a sane kingdom, IMO.

[JoeJ]

That sounds a lot like "legally" acquiring nuclear weapons. I.e. it's probably not legal at all. There is no permit process for lichdom in a sane kingdom, IMO.

You can legally acquire nuclear weapons. Just move to some country that has not signed the non-proliferation treaty and become head of state*. Bonus points if you do it in a country that already has a technically legal way for the head of state to remain in office indefinitely.

*note that becoming head of state in a coup can be retroactively legal if you're successful.

[AbyssStalker]

Go off the radar and resurface as a lich presenting hundreds of (perhaps arch)demon heads to the paladins as a peace offering?

I don't know, it would be RIDICULOUSLY difficult to come up with something that wouldn't get you attacked on sight, much less free to do what you please. You would likely have to secure yourself the position of an essential asset to the paladins for them to actually consider not being hostile.

In many (likely most) settings the above is true, but in some you would likely be seen as a valuable asset right off the bat, but that would have to be a setting where necromancy is just another magic to the society you would want operate in.

Kinda also depends on how depraved the rituals required are, if it means some (perhaps many) human(oid) sacrifices you might be able to rig it by hunting down evil, if it requires ludicrously evil acts, you might be screwed. Even then, still depends on the person, the first one would be alright to me, but some people don't have a lich of sense:smallsmile:.

In any case, I would recommend refraining from unnecessary evil, making dead baby jokes, desecrating sacred grounds with your presence, contact with other liches, amoral creatures, and your character's mother, the last of which will in the very least give you a stern talking to and embarrass you in front of the paladins.

[Pyon]

I think it would be impossible. Unless in your settings Liches don't need to sustain off of the souls of innocent no matter what your Lich will always be evil. Liches need the souls of innocent to remain sane, and I doubt someone willingly giving their soul to you counts as an "innocent". So after you've existed for long enough, the paladins would eventually simply want to kill you.

However if the problem is a paladin in your party and you don't care about the rest of the world of paladins coming after you:

Friendship breaks all laws. Become a good enough friend with the paladin so he looks away from your actions and will even try to defend you when you get attacked.

[Regitnui]

I suppose there are some ways to pull it off, but most of those ways require institutionalized measures and tradition. Brandon Sanderson's Warbreaker has a civilisation who maintain a living pantheon of 'Returned', people who have to have someone donate their 'breath' (soul/capacity for magic) to them weekly. However, this process has to be voluntary from the donator's end, so isn't seen as evil by other cultures, just weird and mildly barbaric.

Eberron has 'positive energy' undead sustained by devotion; the Undying Court of Aerenal allows the best and brightest elves to continue 'living' through the devotion of their descendants. They are, however, unable to leave the island and severely weakened outside their stronghold of Taes Mordai. They, collectively, can hold off attacks from a literal dragon army. (militarized, organized, and trained dragons, not just random predator attacks)

If the DM is willing to allow an alternative power source, like the Breath from the first example or Location from the second, you could refluff the lichdom process into a long-forgotten "Arcane-Undying" process invented by a forgotten gerontocratic civilization that kept the best leaders alive through magic after their natural death. The tiefling could rediscover it or have it told to him via his patron. There'd have to be some limitation, though.

[choryukami]

Souls of innocents? I'm pretty sure the process of becoming a lich is what is considered evil. But after that, its what you do with it. Ever heard of using evil power to destroy greater evil? You don't have an evil master telling you what to do. The lich is an example of a self-made path to power. So just use your lich power for good.

[Regitnui]

Souls of innocents? I'm pretty sure the process of becoming a lich is what is considered evil. But after that, its what you do with it. Ever heard of using evil power to destroy greater evil? You don't have an evil master telling you what to do. The lich is an example of a self-made path to power. So just use your lich power for good.

The Lich is also the prime example of selfishness; "I'm too important/powerful to die, so I should maintain my life at all costs." If there is a way to allow others to willingly help you maintain your 'lich'dom, that'd be easier to justify to the Paladins and LGs.

[Logosloki]

The lich you are looking for is the Arch-lich. The description I found is that the process for becoming an Arch-lich is nearly identical to becoming a lich so, probably just consecrating rituals using intelligent evil beings rather than desecrating rituals involving the slaughter of intelligent good beings.

[Regitnui]

The lich you are looking for is the Arch-lich. The description I found is that the process for becoming an Arch-lich is nearly identical to becoming a lich so, probably just consecrating rituals using intelligent evil beings rather than desecrating rituals involving the slaughter of intelligent good beings.

This description (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Archlich)? Does sound like a plausible alternative, but also implied to need the help or cooperation of others, since it's a decision to serve the community, not to keep yourself alive.


The choice to embrace undeath is allowed and considered only on rare occasions when a clan or settlement has need of lorekeepers or defenders beyond the norm

[woodlandkammao]

Maybe this says something about me, but I read that as 'legally becoming a bitch'

[Pyon]

Souls of innocents? I'm pretty sure the process of becoming a lich is what is considered evil. But after that, its what you do with it. Ever heard of using evil power to destroy greater evil? You don't have an evil master telling you what to do. The lich is an example of a self-made path to power. So just use your lich power for good.

What I am referring to is the part of the monster manual for the lich where it talks about soul sacrifices. It says that the Lich must trap the souls of creatures to it's phylactery to power up the magic that's keeping him"alive". However when I reread this to check if I was correct I don't see anything about "innocent" souls so I guess you could use the souls of evil creatures or something.

[TopCheese]

Well I'm 3e there was good liches. I think the elves found a way to do it?

Just refluff some stuff and go to town.

[Regitnui]

Well I'm 3e there was good liches. I think the elves found a way to do it?

Just refluff some stuff and go to town.

That was eberron's Undying or the Archlich, both discussed earlier.

[MinotaurWarrior]

That was eberron's Undying or the Archlich, both discussed earlier.

Or Baelnorns.

But those require divine intervention, AFAIK.

[TopCheese]

Or Baelnorns.

But those require divine intervention, AFAIK.

I think that's the one in thinking of. Divine elf liches.

I'm also a fan of the the Druid Liches of 3e.

[1Forge]

Thank you for your comments!

clarifying points: I'm running a homebrew game, and thus liches work (slightly) differently. As for the legal system I'm fairly sure he was going get some sort of restraining order on paladins or sum-such. Liches do need soul sacrifices to become a lich in my world but dont need sustained supply's. (his plan for the souls is to get consent from dying people using scientific research law loop holes) and he will be making a deal with the celestials and abyssals, that is described below. As for "good' liches in my game those tend to be paladins that are so devoted to something that they can refuse death (second wind and other abilities are often strength of will to live in my games)

When he signs the contract a very powerfull ancestor devil will come to the mortal plane in disquise (only 1/20th of his full power) by allowing a sort of restraining order on their paladins, the celestials are given the chance to hunt down and destroy the players legal consultant (and terryfing monster) while it is weakened. The devil agreed to this because in my setting teiflings souls belong to their ancestor deamon (fueling it and giving it more power) and if he can raise this players overall power to a certain level (but not enough to kill him) he would gain the full power and experience of a Lich.

[Mellack]

Why would anyone submit their soul to be sacrificed? Note that it is not body, but immortal soul. I can't see how you would get anyone to do that without lying, which should void any contract. Also as to restraining orders, paladins are not lawful stupid. In 5e they don't even need to be lawful, so that will not stop them. Descriptions of the process of becoming a lich tell of them having to commit such atrocities in the process that it turns anyone completely evil. I can't see a good paladin standing by while that happens.

Short answer, tell them if they intend to try to become a lich, expect to fight most every good person/creature in the area.

[rlc]

"others that identify as undead"
so basically, this warlock uses the fantasy version of tumblr

[PotatoGolem]

Is this a lighthearted, jokey campaign? If so, yeah, this sounds really funny and I would 100% go for it. Greater magic restraining order is hilarious. As is the idea that even though angels and devils may pretend to hate each other, they're truly united by their love of bureaucracy.

In a serious campaign? Gods no. It doesn't make any sense that angels are bargaining to allow a super powerful evil being to come into the world in exchange for being legally allowed to kill one devil. Unless your setting has some sort of super-LN over god that rules personally and directly over outsiders this whole idea makes no sense.

[MaxWilson]

You can legally acquire nuclear weapons. Just move to some country that has not signed the non-proliferation treaty and become head of state*. Bonus points if you do it in a country that already has a technically legal way for the head of state to remain in office indefinitely.

*note that becoming head of state in a coup can be retroactively legal if you're successful.

I agree, and that's kind of what I'm getting at. There is no "legal" process for taking over a country, but people like the Ayatollah Khomeini do it anyway. Lich guy is probably going to have to go the same route.

[Sigreid]

It's not really that difficult:


Become absolute monarch of a region that can resist invasion
Establish laws that ensure a list of condemned criminals
Establish laws that allow people to donate their body to necromancy in exchange for forgiveness of tax debt
Raise taxes
Legalize lichdom for the ruling class (you)
Lots of bread and circuses to make the little people think they have it good


Ok, so it is difficult, it's just not that complicated.

[1Forge]

Part of the reasons celestials agree is because if this arch devil lives too long enough teifling souls will power him anyway and that would give more sway to the dirty of hell in a greenish pantheon thing (where dieties arnt actually omnipotent)

[druid91]

Well, considering the only paths (IIRC) to lichdom include....

1.) Selling your soul to Orcus.

and

2.) Using the Dark Apotheosis feature of the Book of Vile Darkness.

I don't think good lich's are a thing in this edition.

[1Forge]

Why would anyone submit their soul to be sacrificed? Note that it is not body, but immortal soul. I can't see how you would get anyone to do that without lying, which should void any contract. Also as to restraining orders, paladins are not lawful stupid. In 5e they don't even need to be lawful, so that will not stop them. Descriptions of the process of becoming a lich tell of them having to commit such atrocities in the process that it turns anyone completely evil. I can't see a good paladin standing by while that happens.

Short answer, tell them if they intend to try to become a lich, expect to fight most every good person/creature in the area.

Well why would anyone want to donate their body after death? To increase the life of another, its kind of the same thing with the soul, plus after the host lich dies the soul is released anyway.

And while paladins are not lawfull stupid they do want to do what's right and are bound by the law they work like the UN if they started randomly breaking laws they would lose their power.

Also being a lich wont affect the players alignment so unless they commit a crime anda paladin or cleric can prove it he has pretty much diplomatic immunity. But as soon as he's caught doing something wrong (I say as soon as because theres 0% chance he will obey all the laws) the church will be all over him.

[1Forge]

Well, considering the only paths (IIRC) to lichdom include....

1.) Selling your soul to Orcus.

and

2.) Using the Dark Apotheosis feature of the Book of Vile Darkness.

I don't think good lich's are a thing in this edition.

Like I said home brew, I made a different way that involves stealing a tiny peice of an old ones soul.

[Mellack]

Well why would anyone want to donate their body after death? To increase the life of another, its kind of the same thing with the soul, plus after the host lich dies the soul is released anyway.

And while paladins are not lawfull stupid they do want to do what's right and are bound by the law they work like the UN if they started randomly breaking laws they would lose their power.

Also being a lich wont affect the players alignment so unless they commit a crime anda paladin or cleric can prove it he has pretty much diplomatic immunity. But as soon as he's caught doing something wrong (I say as soon as because theres 0% chance he will obey all the laws) the church will be all over him.

I know you are homebrewing, so make it how you will, but it seems to me that a lich does not capture souls, it consumes them. They are destroyed to power the lich. Souls are immortal, which is why it is very different than donating your body. One never stops needing their soul, in this life or the next.

Are all the paladins part of some gigantic organization? Is that organization controlled by the celestials directly? RAW paladins need not work for a church, diety, or group.

For the third point, the acts required to become a lich are what turn them evil. They are described as having to perform rituals that corrupt them. Rituals so despicable that even their descriptions are horrendous. Do you mean that in your universe a person can become a lich without having to perform acts that blacken their soul and turn them evil? If so, do you have good liches?

[Hawkstar]

Souls of innocents? I'm pretty sure the process of becoming a lich is what is considered evil. But after that, its what you do with it. Ever heard of using evil power to destroy greater evil? You don't have an evil master telling you what to do. The lich is an example of a self-made path to power. So just use your lich power for good.

If you don't regularly devour the souls of innocents, you deteriorate into a Demilich.

Also being a lich wont affect the players alignment so unless they commit a crime anda paladin or cleric can prove it he has pretty much diplomatic immunity. But as soon as he's caught doing something wrong (I say as soon as because theres 0% chance he will obey all the laws) the church will be all over him.
Yes it does. Being a Lich makes you Evil - if only because the Cosmos hates willful undead escaping the soul-harvesting machine it has going on. Devourers and Liches are extra-hated, because they are doing the same thing. (Not sure if they're as hated as Wights and Wraiths, though - those liberate others from the soul-consuming cosmos)

[Sigreid]

Why would anyone submit their soul to be sacrificed? Note that it is not body, but immortal soul. I can't see how you would get anyone to do that without lying, which should void any contract. Also as to restraining orders, paladins are not lawful stupid. In 5e they don't even need to be lawful, so that will not stop them. Descriptions of the process of becoming a lich tell of them having to commit such atrocities in the process that it turns anyone completely evil. I can't see a good paladin standing by while that happens.

Short answer, tell them if they intend to try to become a lich, expect to fight most every good person/creature in the area.

I don't know. If a person knew they were about to die either way, and further knew that their fate was eternal torment in hell or the abyss, nonexistence might seem like the best option.

[1Forge]

I know you are homebrewing, so make it how you will, but it seems to me that a lich does not capture souls, it consumes them. They are destroyed to power the lich. Souls are immortal, which is why it is very different than donating your body. One never stops needing their soul, in this life or the next.

Are all the paladins part of some gigantic organization? Is that organization controlled by the celestials directly? RAW paladins need not work for a church, diety, or group.

For the third point, the acts required to become a lich are what turn them evil. They are described as having to perform rituals that corrupt them. Rituals so despicable that even their descriptions are horrendous. Do you mean that in your universe a person can become a lich without having to perform acts that blacken their soul and turn them evil? If so, do you have good liches?

I like the point your bringing up I really need to clarify more on my setting.

1) soul binding vs destruction a soul cannot be destroyed in my universe, they either stick around, or ascend/descend to one of two dates (ascending to the stars or entering a pit that hell exists around that no one has ever come back from. Celestials and abyssals are souls that weren't ready to move on (or couldn't) for example if I was heading to the deep scary pit of darkness I might get the option to be pulled away last second by a devil in exchange I'd pretty much join them. Celestials stay because they still feel the world needs them and its not time to ascend for them yet.

2) Yes by RAW a paladin does not need a church or even faith, but in my world paladins and clerics live in an enclaive in the dragon homelands, they are skilled warriors who give their lives to keeping the peace and defending the weak. Dieties "sponsor" paladins and clerics by giving them temporary power to do so, they pay this favor off by serving as a celestial for a few years after death. To be an independent paladin a player would have a separate arrangement or an innate power they were born with.

3) While generally your statement on liches is true there are some differences. Mainly a lich is simply an undead that kept its soul bound to it (if their soul was a rope they tied it to their body) that allows for sentience, and the keeping of old abilities. Regular undead only have the scraps of someone's soul still attached. As for this turning them evil that is wrong while it usually makes the soul mad there are ways around it. For example in my world there are 3 guardian sentinels that could not leave the artifact they were guarding, they were so dedicated they turned into liches by simply refusing to die. There are easier ways to become a lich though (mass murder, demonic sacrifices, the unwillfull binding of hundreds of souls...) the "good" ways are just so much harder and have a higher chance of sending your soul directly into the dark abyss.

[Hawkstar]

Then go ahead.

[1Forge]

Btw what's a demi-lich? that could very well be more similar to what I want to create. If so then liches and arch liches might stay flat out evil in my world.

[JNAProductions]

Btw what's a demi-lich? that could very well be more similar to what I want to create. If so then liches and arch liches might stay flat out evil in my world.

Your world seems oddly mutable to your desires...

Demi-Liches are Liches-Lite. They're just skulls.

[Hawkstar]

Btw what's a demi-lich?
A mostly-inanimate, kinda magical skull that eats souls.

[1Forge]

Oh lol never mind I had a totally different image in my head. Lol

[Nowhere Girl]

Liches are gross. For my money, using Wish to cast Clone and periodically make a new, younger "you" (maybe each year on your birthday) to replace the older one is a much better way of becoming immortal.

But good luck with lichdom~!

[1Forge]

Liches are gross. For my money, using Wish to cast Clone and periodically make a new, younger "you" (maybe each year on your birthday) to replace the older one is a much better way of becoming immortal.

But good luck with lichdom~!

Dont worry its one of my players becoming a lich. LG human paladin is my jam (or bard)

[Regitnui]

Liches are gross. For my money, using Wish to cast Clone and periodically make a new, younger "you" (maybe each year on your birthday) to replace the older one is a much better way of becoming immortal.

That's less immortality and more descendant body-snatching. It also has its own Delayed Blast Fireball glyph-trap field of moral questions for the paladins; just start with "how do you know that you didn't just kill an innocent soul" and go on.

[Hawkstar]

Given your dramatic changes to the fluff of a lich, there is no reason becoming a lich through ethical means would be immoral in any way, and thus shouldn't bother the Paladin.


That's less immortality and more descendant body-snatching. It also has its own Delayed Blast Fireball glyph-trap field of moral questions for the paladins; just start with "how do you know that you didn't just kill an innocent soul" and go on.

"Because the magic that creates this clone of my current state does not imbue it with any soul, and in fact the creation of a soul is outright impossible through my magic. This is just a fleshy, empty vessel awaiting my own soul. While your concerns are well-intentioned, they are misplaced.