Fairly Critical Changeling question

[SangoProduction]

The Changeling's "Minor Changeshape" says it acts as Disguise Self, except that it's not magical or illusory, and it takes a full round. However, it also states that while using this ability, it gains a +10 circumstance bonus to disguise checks. However, Disguise Self also gives a +10 unnamed bonus to disguise checks.

I get that it's probably intended to just make it so you don't have to reference the spell (just the racial ability...because that's easier I guess), but I kinda wanted to know if the devs have spoken on this.

I mean, +10 means there's a somewhat slight chance a lucky spot check from a commoner might see through it, if the changeling didn't have ranks in disguise. But a +20 would mean that they could walk around in societies just fine.

I imagine it's a possibility that they intended it, but I'm thinking that it's not incredibly likely.

[BowStreetRunner]

There is no mention of this in the MM3 Errata or the FAQ. I don't have the Eberron Campaign Setting to look at right now, but I believe the race is printed there with the same wording. If so, I do have the ECS Errata handy and there is no mention of it there either.

[SangoProduction]

There is no mention of this in the MM3 Errata or the FAQ. I don't have the Eberron Campaign Setting to look at right now, but I believe the race is printed there with the same wording. If so, I do have the ECS Errata handy and there is no mention of it there either.

That kinda sucks, as I would have so preferred a solid ruling. I'll just keep the +10 standard.

[Vhaidara]

Honestly, I feel it's kind of low. Theses are literal shapeshifters, it should literally put you out of reach of people without training or significant natural talent (represented by investment of ranks/feats or high Wisdom, respectively). which means +20

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's +20. The +10 in the racial ability is a circumstance bonus and the +10 in disguise self is untyped. If it was meant as a reminder there's no reason to add a type to the bonus.

From the fluff angle, a mere +10 would give the average joe on the street a near even chance of realizing that his neighbor isn't actually a human, dwarf, elf, etc. That flies in the face of the lore that suggests most changelings goe for years without being noticed as such.

[SangoProduction]

Yeah, that was something of my logic as to why it might have stacked as well.

[Lanson]

If I recall, the changeling only has to actually make a disguise check if he is trying to emulate a specific person, if he becomes Joe Blow the dwarf that nobody knows, the disguise check doesn't come into play. Just like using the polymorph line of spells you always look like the creature you're trying to be, but if you try someone specific people who knew them have a chance of seeing through your disguise.

[SangoProduction]

hmm good point.
EDIT: going back through the disguise skill http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Disguise_Skill
Familiarity only adds a bonus; it doesn't determine the disguise.

It seems that if you draw attention to yourself, they can notice you. And if you disguise yourself as anything but changeling (kinda the point), you take a further -5 to -7 (not sure if changelings have natural sexes), giving a commoner a 1/4 chance of noticing a common changeling who took 10 on the check, getting only a 15 or 13 disguise, unless it literally does nothing to draw attention to itself. So....could make sense that it actually gains a further +10 to disguise as racial trait.

[Afgncaap5]

There's another possible weird side effect to this question...

If you assume that you only get the +10 circumstance bonus, then it means that a Changeling benefits from disguise self spells, I'd assume. If it's the +20, then it might suggest that, since these are two abilities of the same name even if one's not magical, that a Changeling wouldn't gain a benefit from disguise self.

Or would the differences between the abilities be different enough that, depending on interpretation, a Changeling could have a potential +30 as early as level 1 if they play a wizard, sorcerer, bard, or cleric with the Trickery domain?

[SangoProduction]

There's another possible weird side effect to this question...

If you assume that you only get the +10 circumstance bonus, then it means that a Changeling benefits from disguise self spells, I'd assume. If it's the +20, then it might suggest that, since these are two abilities of the same name even if one's not magical, that a Changeling wouldn't gain a benefit from disguise self.

Or would the differences between the abilities be different enough that, depending on interpretation, a Changeling could have a potential +30 as early as level 1 if they play a wizard?

I'd assume that the "as Disguise self" indicates that it can't stack with Disguise self. But, in the same ability, it does say to gain +10 circumstance bonus to disguise checks while using this ability.
Does this mean it changes the circumstance bonus? Does it mean it's in addition? As far as I understand, by the fluff, it makes sense to be able to stack, as a race whose entire shtick is to look like other creatures.

[Nando]

Hm, I'd think the boni from the Changeling's Minor Change Shape'd stack with a disguise self. Two different sources, each giving an untyped bonus. And a third source giving a circumstance bonus.

Would make sense fluff-wise, in my eyes, too: The Minor Change Shape is an actual, physical change to the Changeling's body (first untyped bonus), it's naturally good in using this ability to disguise it self (circumstance bonus as a racial ability) and the you throw a Illusion (Glamer) over it to smoothen the edges (second untyped bonus)...

[bean illus]

No, no, no, no, and no.

In the first place: The mechanics of disguise and spot. The disguise only gets challenged if the other has A REASON to spot, such as; searching for fugitives; guards told to be on their toes for xx; people who actually know either the disguised or the posed.
See, in 3.5 the designers seem to almost always assume disguise meant posing as another person, and if that's not the case, almost nobody gets a spot at all. So the 1st level commoner will not likely attempt to spot check the disguise of a random market goer/etc.

In the second place: A 1st level changeling without ranks in disguise is poor role playing. If details are minor (humanoid, medium, only change height/weight a few inches/pounds, age category within one range, etc) the bonus is +5. A bumbling changeling who (1)puts on a disguise (T10), (2)gets the changeling competence bonus (+10), (3)minor details (+5), gets a 25 bonus, without ranks or bonuses. With a few ranks and a T20 the check is 35+.
THEN the untyped bonus from the Disguise Spell, and yes a 45+ at 1st level is entirely easy.

[SangoProduction]

No, no, no, no, and no.

In the first place: The mechanics of disguise and spot. The disguise only gets challenged if the other has A REASON to spot, such as; searching for fugitives; guards told to be on their toes for xx; people who actually know either the disguised or the posed.
See, in 3.5 the designers seem to almost always assume disguise meant posing as another person, and if that's not the case, almost nobody gets a spot at all. So the 1st level commoner will not likely attempt to spot check the disguise of a random market goer/etc.

In the second place: A 1st level changeling without ranks in disguise is poor role playing. If details are minor (humanoid, medium, only change height/weight a few inches/pounds, age category within one range, etc) the bonus is +5. A bumbling changeling who (1)puts on a disguise (T10), (2)gets the changeling competence bonus (+10), (3)minor details (+5), gets a 25 bonus, without ranks or bonuses. With a few ranks and a T20 the check is 35+.
THEN the untyped bonus from the Disguise Spell, and yes a 45+ at 1st level is entirely easy.

Minor details do not include changing appearance to an entirely different race, unless you still want to appear as a changeling, so that's just 20 from there. -2 for trying to look like a different race. So, 18. Turns out changelings do have genders, so you don't take another -2, so long as you look like your gender. If we take 20, that brings it up to 28, though it could take upwards of 10 hours, or not really possible [definitely not possible with the spell, since you can't extend the time of the spell cast, but conceivable with this], or it could only take 20 standard actions [2 minutes], depending on interpretation.

No ranks indicates no particular training, and is assumed to be what the common person has. From this information, I assumed that non-heroes had no skills (a bit extreme, looking back). This seems to not be the case, if we assume the average person is a level 1 commoner.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disguise.htm Anyone who looks at them, if they draw attention gets a spot check, by RAW. If they don't draw attention (and thus don't participate in society, like buying food), then no one gets spot checks. The suspicious are considered to normally take 10, and those familiar with the impersonation get further bonuses.

Of course, a guard can take 20 on a pat down, or some such (1 minute, since you can make 2 move actions in one round), leaving us with only a relative +8, if we assume the guard is of the same skill as we are. Which means we handily win, since given a take 20, there's no variance.

So, as long as you only take 20 on the disguise check, you will never be caught by an equal skill observer, without the spell bonus (assuming the observer has no miscellaneous bonuses). That's conceptually OK. So yeah, it works without the spell bonus. Good argument.

Meanwhile, a no so diligent changeling (takes 10 instead of 20), would have a 10% failure chance against equal skill characters, assuming the observers roll. That'd get them through an average of 10 hours of conversation, which is acceptable.

Not a counter argument, just idle curiosity: I wonder what it looks like when the changeling is spotted. What would give away that they aren't x race?

[bean illus]

Minor details do not include changing appearance to an entirely different race, unless you still want to appear as a changeling, so that's just 20 from there. -2 for trying to look like a different race. So, 18. Turns out changelings do have genders, so you don't take another -2, so long as you look like your gender. If we take 20, that brings it up to 28, though it could take upwards of 10 hours, or not really possible [definitely not possible with the spell, since you can't extend the time of the spell cast, but conceivable with this], or it could only take 20 standard actions [2 minutes], depending on interpretation.

No ranks indicates no particular training, and is assumed to be what the common person has. From this information, I assumed that non-heroes had no skills (a bit extreme, looking back). This seems to not be the case, if we assume the average person is a level 1 commoner.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disguise.htm Anyone who looks at them, if they draw attention gets a spot check, by RAW. If they don't draw attention (and thus don't participate in society, like buying food), then no one gets spot checks. The suspicious are considered to normally take 10, and those familiar with the impersonation get further bonuses.

Of course, a guard can take 20 on a pat down, or some such (1 minute, since you can make 2 move actions in one round), leaving us with only a relative +8, if we assume the guard is of the same skill as we are. Which means we handily win, since given a take 20, there's no variance.

So, as long as you only take 20 on the disguise check, you will never be caught by an equal skill observer, without the spell bonus (assuming the observer has no miscellaneous bonuses). That's conceptually OK. So yeah, it works without the spell bonus. Good argument.

Meanwhile, a no so diligent changeling (takes 10 instead of 20), would have a 10% failure chance against equal skill characters, assuming the observers roll. That'd get them through an average of 10 hours of conversation, which is acceptable.

Not a counter argument, just idle curiosity: I wonder what it looks like when the changeling is spotted. What would give away that they aren't x race?
I've played disguise skill as often as any other ability in 3.5. Maybe i'm lucky, but i've never had a dm interpret buying a drink, breathing in public, or/etc as "drawing attention". They have invariably also decided that 1d3x10 min =quick disguise (1d20), 30 min =T10, and twice that (60 min) =T20.

Other than that you're mostly right, i think.

[SangoProduction]

I've played disguise skill as often as any other ability in 3.5. Maybe i'm lucky, but i've never had a dm interpret buying a drink, breathing in public, or/etc as "drawing attention". They have invariably also decided that 1d3x10 min =quick disguise (1d20), 30 min =T10, and twice that (60 min) =T20.

Other than that you're mostly right, i think.

If you don't have someone's attention, how can you hold a conversation with them, let alone purchase something?

But yeah, I only argued from RAW, as DMs change, and vary in just about all things. They probably have at least +40 to disguise checks in and of themselves, and auto-polymorph.

[Curmudgeon]

Using Spot to see through a Disguise just means you've determined that they are disguised. It doesn't give you any special knowledge about their regular shape; for that, you still need to make the usual Knowledge check.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Using Spot to see through a Disguise just means you've determined that they are disguised. It doesn't give you any special knowledge about their regular shape; for that, you still need to make the usual Knowledge check.

People who are disguised are typically presumed to be up to no good. Being discovered would make further interaction with the individual that discovered you more difficult and, after a run through the gossip mill, the rest of a small community as well. Being discovered by anyone would be a real problem for a typical, non-adventurer changeling.

[Curmudgeon]

People who are disguised are typically presumed to be up to no good.
That's not necessarily a correct presumption. Someone who's famous may just wish to go about without being bothered with attention. Someone extremely attractive may wish to downplay their looks for a similar reason. A journalist may wish to blend in with the locals to gain material for a story without themselves becoming the story.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's not necessarily a correct presumption. Someone who's famous may just wish to go about without being bothered with attention. Someone extremely attractive may wish to downplay their looks for a similar reason. A journalist may wish to blend in with the locals to gain material for a story without themselves becoming the story.

All these things may be true but people respond negatively to deception, almost universally. These are assumptions that would be made fairly rarely by a typical person.

[Curmudgeon]

All these things may be true but people respond negatively to deception, almost universally.
I don't think that's correct. There's a reason why many romantic comedies have the female lead downplaying her looks, yet when she reveals her "true" appearance (takes off her glasses, lets down her hair) she's admired ("Why, Miss Jones, you're beautiful!) rather than despised. It's a trope: Beautiful All Along (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BeautifulAllAlong).

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't think that's correct. There's a reason why many romantic comedies have the female lead downplaying her looks, yet when she reveals her "true" appearance (takes off her glasses, lets down her hair) she's admired ("Why, Miss Jones, you're beautiful!) rather than despised. It's a trope: Beautiful All Along (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BeautifulAllAlong).

.... that's not disguise. Not any more than application of basic makeup to highlight or conceal facial features and flaws is a disguise. Disguise is concealing who you are and, in a changeling, what you are. The heroines in rom-coms aren't deliberately trying to conceal who they are, just how pretty they are, and often not even consciously at that.

[zergling.exe]

.... that's not disguise. Not any more than application of basic makeup to highlight or conceal facial features and flaws is a disguise. Disguise is concealing who you are and, in a changeling, what you are. The heroines in rom-coms aren't deliberately trying to conceal who they are, just how pretty they are, and often not even consciously at that.

Which is a disguise:

Use this skill to change your appearance or someone else’s. The effort requires at least a few props, some makeup, and some time.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Which is a disguise:

Disguise sometimes calls for makeup but not all makeup is a disguise. It's a rectangle and a square.

Unless you're seriously arguing that every woman who applies makeup to herself is deliberately failing their disguise checks so that people will still recognize them.

[SangoProduction]

People who are disguised are typically presumed to be up to no good. Being discovered would make further interaction with the individual that discovered you more difficult and, after a run through the gossip mill, the rest of a small community as well. Being discovered by anyone would be a real problem for a typical, non-adventurer changeling.


This is very much true, especially when you want to make a living for yourself in a town. (I was originally going to comment it was false, but I'll explain why it's not.)

Sure, you can just tack on yet another disguise, and be an entirely different person...but then you no longer have a job. Friends (unless you trust them, probably too much) and "family" (if you got that far, which I mean you probably could) will not know the new you.

So, you'd have to restart your entire life, basically, if you are found out. And unless the town regularly gets many travelers, or settlers (and isn't too large), then if the "disguised" guy disappears and a new guy shows up not too long later, then that's going to raise some serious suspicion.

But even if no one is suspicious of the new comer, it's got to be incredibly terrible to watch your friends and family move on, as though you left. But perhaps you can reestablish relationships, and/or console them on their "loss". So, it's not the worst thing in the world (but still would be pretty darned bad).

You'd basically have to abandon the town, and look for a new one, which, given the world of D&D, could well be a death sentence. All the disguises in the world won't save you from starvation on the road, or a Huge Viper.

[Mrs Kat]

I think the RAI of the changeling ability is as follows:


+10 circumstance bonus to disguise
Your disguise is limited as per disguise self: You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your body type. For example, a human caster could look human, humanoid, or like any other human-shaped bipedal creature. Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature such as a mole or a beard, or look like an entirely different person.
(This ability is not an illusory effect, but a minor physical alteration of a changeling's facial features, skin color and texture, and size, within the limits described for the spell)


If the ability also included a +10 untyped bonus, this would be listed.

On page 247 of the ECS, a typical changeling wayfinder explorer is listed as having a disguise bonus of "+9 (+19 when using minor change
shape ability to act in character)". The NPC has a charisma of 15, and so probably has 7 ranks in disguise. This supports my interpretation.

However, the bonus should stack with the unnamed bonus from disguise self or a hat of disguise.