Strongest ToB build that isn't D2 crusader

[Windrammer]

Rather, what's the strongest build that involves the ToB for more than a dip and actually makes sense?

Edit: WRT cheese doesn't count as making sense

[Kelb_Panthera]

Probably something in a ruby knight vindicator build with a strong cleric leaning. Unless you bar casting, it will trump anything else available, as always.

Barring casting, I rather like a master of nine build but that's just me.

[DarkSonic1337]

Well you could also try the Wu Jen/Jade Phoenix Mage/Archmage build.

Body outside body SLA to clones that can body outside body...ect.

And they can all use maneuvers!.

Even without the Body outside Body SLA trick it's still a useful spell. And you can have each copy blow itself up with Emerald Immolation!

Also you can actually cast transcend mortality and have it not permanently kill you (Emerald Immolation right before it runs out), so that's nice

[Taveena]

I'm inclined to say Archivist into Ruby Knight Vindicator - take Sacred Exorcist 1 when you can, but you can qualify earlier with the God Touched/Divine Channeler feat combination, which you can retrain out of by PHB2 rules once you have the Sacred Exorcist level.

JPM is good, but Archivist can get a huge number of Wizard spells anyway and the extra swifts are incredible - y'know, in case you wanna cast Celerity four times a round (via Divine Bard.) Remember, you can provide the Scribe Scroll feat and the XP. All they need to do is know the spell.

[Theodred theOld]

I don't know that it's the strongest, but I'm a big fan of the bard-blade build.

[Darrin]

I'd probably give the nod to Spank the Monkey (http://web.archive.org/web/20070717222709/http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=764997), but it requires some favorable rulings on how White Raven Tactics and Divine Impetus/Recovery works.

[Seruvius]

if you mix Warblade and Bard and maximise Dragonfire inspiration you can get a level 20 build that makes 2 weapon fighting not look too bad. I forget the exact details but if all attacks in a full attack hit it worked out as something like 300-700 damage per turn.

[Uncle Pine]

Wasn't there a build involving the Idiot Crusader to get and use White Raven Tactics each turn, effectively getting NI turns every round? Although one could argue that getting NI turns is more powerful than getting NI damage on each attack.

[noob]

Maybe but the GM throws at you ni books and it takes ni years of gaming to solve a quest.

[Aegis013]

Wasn't there a build involving the Idiot Crusader to get and use White Raven Tactics each turn, effectively getting NI turns every round? Although one could argue that getting NI turns is more powerful than getting NI damage on each attack.

Yup, that build is just Idiot Crusader with no frills. How it appears depends on a bunch of unclear rulings that would need to be provided by the DM, though. Some rulings let that happen quite early, but some might not let you get that up and running mid-high levels.

If the DM rules that the character herself can never know a maneuver more than once, and you can assign each benefit inside of a level of a PrC to a different class progression (this is the most lenient) your build goes something like:
Swordsage 1/Warblade 1/Idiot Crusader activated 1/??? x/ToB PrCs that give maneuvers readied (and thus granted) to pile onto Crusader z/w/y (Master of Nine is best for this, because so many readied and known, try to use the ??? levels for free feats, so things like Fighter, Feat Rogue and Cloistered Cleric dips are excellent)...
Either saving up maneuvers known until the Crusader has sufficient IL to get the strongest maneuvers and piling a bunch of super powered techniques into your always-on list, or grabbing whatever is good for the level when the Crusader is

If you have to assign the whole level of a PrC to a single class progression, it gets a little slower, but still looks pretty much the same.

If a character can know a maneuver more than once, but not more than once in a single class progression it gets a lot slower. It looks more like:
Crusader 1/??? x/PrCs z/w/y.
This is a lot slower because on the previous set up the Crusader starts with all the Stone Dragon and White Raven Maneuvers available known by other classes, thus has two known and two granted, ready to pick up a third as soon as the player grabs Extra Granted Maneuver if desired. In this scenario, you're 2 granted shy even with Extra Granted Maneuver, so you have to trudge through some PrCs before your Idiot powers activate. This means you're at least level 6 or so to get into the PrCs, and you need at least 2-3 levels of 3 or so PrCs to get your Idiot powers activated. That's not happening before level 12 without some crazy cheese.

I'll throw up a personal favorite build of mine under the most lenient set here in case anybody is interested. It's horribly MAD and terribly feat starved, but that's OK.
Race: Human or Strongheart Halfling OR at least 1 flaw on a race of choice.
Unarmed Swordsage 1/Warblade 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Crusader 1/Fighter 1/Swordsage +1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 1/Telflammar Shadowlord 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator +4/The Master of Nine 3/Ruby Knight Vindicator +2
Feats:
1. Dodge (or Desert Wind Dodge is even better)
1H. Shape Soulmeld: Blink Shirt (to qualify for Telflammar Shadowlord)
1USS. Improved Unarmed Strike
3. Adaptive Style
3CC. Darkness Domain (Blind-Fight)
3CC. Time Domain (Improved Initiative)
3CC. Knowledge Devotion
5F. Mobility
6. Spring Attack (if not using fractional BAB change Swordsage +1 to Warblade +1 to meet the BAB requirement)

Maneuvers of note to grab: Your stance when you first grab RKV should be Assassin's Stance to qualify for Telflammar Shadowlord. If your DM allows gloves of shadowhand to get you stances, you can push RKV back 1 level and get another level of Mo9 in, but since campaigns don't always guarantee magic items, this set up doesn't require them.

After that, the big ones to grab up as Idiot maneuvers are White Raven Tactics, Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Stride and Shadow Blink. With those as Idiot maneuvers and four levels of Telflammar Shadowlord, you'll be able to full attack three times every turn or two each turn but infinite turns, giving enemies a max of one turn, but more actions if they can manipulate the action economy somehow. If your DM has a favorable reading of Divine Impetus (not requires a standard action to gain a Swift), you can do as many full attacks in a round as you have Turn Undead attempts +3, or however you want to do it.

Your skills are going to be utter trash unless your point buy was insane, or your rolls were insane. You'll probably barely manage to scrape out all the skills requirements for the build, but it can be done with Human and a 12 Int, I think, possibly on a Human with 10 Int, but it's been too long since I plotted it all out for me to say with certainty. You need a minimum of 13 dex, as well. You have a second level spell from Telflammar Shadowlord on Int based casting and 3rd level Cleric spells, plus Wis to AC from Swordsage. It goes without saying Str is important for this character, and Cha isn't totally dump-able due to Turn Undead attempts, and Con is Con. So it's horribly MAD.



Maybe but the GM throws at you ni books and it takes ni years of gaming to solve a quest.

This is true. Plus, a lot of DMs will just say "For the purpose of White Raven Tactics, you do not count as your own ally." In which case, you need two of these dudes to pull it off, so grab Leadership or have a friend play one. Then you'll get 2*NI books to the face.

[heavyfuel]

Wasn't there a build involving the Idiot Crusader to get and use White Raven Tactics each turn, effectively getting NI turns every round? Although one could argue that getting NI turns is more powerful than getting NI damage on each attack.

Yup. Getting inifinite rounds per turn mean you can do anything in the world that you could do if had unlimited time in just 6 seconds. It's the less restrictive and unlimited version of time stop you can get it at lv 5 (ready only WRT and no other maneuver, you automatically ragain it every turn)

Your DM does have to be crazy to allow it though.

[Uncle Pine]

This is true. Plus, a lot of DMs will just say "For the purpose of White Raven Tactics, you do not count as your own ally." In which case, you need two of these dudes to pull it off, so grab Leadership or have a friend play one. Then you'll get 2*NI books to the face.

Or you could play a Dvati (although since it's a race from Dragon Magazine Compendium it comes with its own share of problems).

[Rebel7284]

As far as non-cheese builds go, RKV is certainly at/near the top of the pack. Lots of synergy and extra actions thrown in (assuming a reasonable houserule of 1/round divine impetus being a free action to activate.)

[Windrammer]

I don't know that it's the strongest, but I'm a big fan of the bard-blade build.

I know it's a thing but have never seen a specific build. Care to share?

[Brova]

I know it's a thing but have never seen a specific build. Care to share?

You take some number of Bard levels (I believe four is recommended) then a bunch of Warblade levels. Take Song of the White Raven so you can fight and sing at the same time. Reasonably effective melee shell with some buff potential. IIRC Song of the White Raven doesn't work with PrCs, so you're going to want to go full Warblade.

[Bluydee]

Cheeseless and barring casting shenanigans, an Eternal Blade with a Belt of Battle can nova and full-attack 7 times in a row and doesn't have any conflicts with any rules.

[Irk]

Strongest for what? Even damage isn't the end-all and the be-all of everything. It really depends on what you are looking for as strength.

[Windrammer]

Strongest for what? Even damage isn't the end-all and the be-all of everything. It really depends on what you are looking for as strength.

Are you saying that because you just have a lot of builds in mind or because you wanted to correct me?

There are indeed different kinds of strength for different situations. That's the precise reason why I'm not specifying any. If I was interested in a specific kind of build I would have said so. I just want to see some builds that are strong in whatever way the commenter decided was the most relevant.

[Windrammer]

Cheeseless and barring casting shenanigans, an Eternal Blade with a Belt of Battle can nova and full-attack 7 times in a row and doesn't have any conflicts with any rules.

How, may I ask? Island in Time is once per encounter and Time Stands Still can only be refreshed once in a turn, as a Swordsage needs a full round and a Warblade can only do it once due to the swift action requirement.

It would be Time Stands Still for two full attacks, Belt of Battle once to refresh maneuver, use other two charges to Time Stands Still Again (four full attacks) and then... One more full attack? What else can be done?

[Talionis]

Well you could also try the Wu Jen/Jade Phoenix Mage/Archmage build.

Body outside body SLA to clones that can body outside body...ect.

And they can all use maneuvers!.

Even without the Body outside Body SLA trick it's still a useful spell. And you can have each copy blow itself up with Emerald Immolation!

Also you can actually cast transcend mortality and have it not permanently kill you (Emerald Immolation right before it runs out), so that's nice


This is a ridiculous build. The clones have eighth or ninth level maneuvers. This is stronger than D2 Crusader. It's an infinite number of being able to attack, move, or do whatever you want.

Transcend Mortality makes you mostly invulnerable for a good amount of time. Plus Wu Jen casting as you level is fun.

[Aegis013]

Cheeseless and barring casting shenanigans, an Eternal Blade with a Belt of Battle can nova and full-attack 7 times in a row and doesn't have any conflicts with any rules.


How, may I ask? Island in Time is once per encounter and Time Stands Still can only be refreshed once in a turn, as a Swordsage needs a full round and a Warblade can only do it once due to the swift action requirement.

It would be Time Stands Still for two full attacks, Belt of Battle once to refresh maneuver, use other two charges to Time Stands Still Again (four full attacks) and then... One more full attack? What else can be done?

I too am curious, I've got theories on how it might be doable, but they aren't what I would describe cheeseless.

All I've got for this nova is: On initiative X, use Time Stands Still (two full attacks), use your swift to activate belt of battle, full attack (three). Use an Immediate action to act on initaitive X-1, your swift action is depleted due to using an immediate action, you can't use another belt of battle or recover Time Stands Still via Warblade recovery, and Swordsage recovery is right out, so your best bet to get up to the equivalent of that many full attacks is to use Avalanche of Blades and hope for the best, or just full attack (four) and be capped out.

The only other possibility, I suppose, would be to get WRT on self involved. Which I also wouldn't call cheeseless.

Then it'd be something like: On initiative X, use Time Stands Still (two full attacks), use your swift to WRT on self. On initiative X-1, use your swift to recover maneuvers, and full attack (three full attacks). Use an Immediate to Island in Time, and on Initiative X-2, use Time Stands Still (five full attacks), and you don't have a swift because you used an immediate on your last turn. ...If you interpret Island in Time's text that says "you can use all your actions as normal" to give you free pass on the normal immediate action/swift action relationship, then at this point, you could WRT again, and on Initiative X-3, you could full attack (six full attacks) but at this point, surely you'd have no swift due to using that immediate, but if you manage to squint past that, you could belt of battle for that seventh full attack. At this point though, I'd definitely say you're using some blatant cheese.

I do hope Bluydee enlightens us to something that I'm just missing.

[Drowassaas]

Well there is always swordsage/teflammar shadowlord
Tele3 time full attack for each one then hey you hit me i tele and hit you 4 times

[Windrammer]

I too am curious, I've got theories on how it might be doable, but they aren't what I would describe cheeseless.

All I've got for this nova is: On initiative X, use Time Stands Still (two full attacks), use your swift to activate belt of battle, full attack (three). Use an Immediate action to act on initaitive X-1, your swift action is depleted due to using an immediate action, you can't use another belt of battle or recover Time Stands Still via Warblade recovery, and Swordsage recovery is right out, so your best bet to get up to the equivalent of that many full attacks is to use Avalanche of Blades and hope for the best, or just full attack (four) and be capped out.

The only other possibility, I suppose, would be to get WRT on self involved. Which I also wouldn't call cheeseless.

Then it'd be something like: On initiative X, use Time Stands Still (two full attacks), use your swift to WRT on self. On initiative X-1, use your swift to recover maneuvers, and full attack (three full attacks). Use an Immediate to Island in Time, and on Initiative X-2, use Time Stands Still (five full attacks), and you don't have a swift because you used an immediate on your last turn. ...If you interpret Island in Time's text that says "you can use all your actions as normal" to give you free pass on the normal immediate action/swift action relationship, then at this point, you could WRT again, and on Initiative X-3, you could full attack (six full attacks) but at this point, surely you'd have no swift due to using that immediate, but if you manage to squint past that, you could belt of battle for that seventh full attack. At this point though, I'd definitely say you're using some blatant cheese.

I do hope Bluydee enlightens us to something that I'm just missing.

Warblade recovery requires standard AND swift.

[Bluydee]

Well, I was being dumb and for some reason was thinking of something else to get 7, but you can do 5, though the last one is situational.

Time Stands Still (Full Attacking twice)
Belt of Battle to Full Attack again
Island In Time to take your turn again and Full Attack
Moment of Alacrity to speed you up by 20 in the count.

If you were slower than your opponent by less than 20 and no one is left below you, you kinda get another turn and can Full Attack again. Still, going after your opponent let's you reap the benefits of Stormguard Warrior for crazy damage, approaching high-op ubercharger levels if you have enough attacks.

[Aegis013]

Warblade recovery requires standard AND swift.

You're right, for whatever reason I was misremembering it as just a swift which you couldn't use maneuvers with. Thanks for the correction.


Well, I was being dumb and for some reason was thinking of something else to get 7, but you can do 5, though the last one is situational.

Time Stands Still (Full Attacking twice)
Belt of Battle to Full Attack again
Island In Time to take your turn again and Full Attack
Moment of Alacrity to speed you up by 20 in the count.

If you were slower than your opponent by less than 20 and no one is left below you, you kinda get another turn and can Full Attack again. Still, going after your opponent let's you reap the benefits of Stormguard Warrior for crazy damage, approaching high-op ubercharger levels if you have enough attacks.

I don't think the last one flies, personally. Island in Time is an immediate action, so on your next turn, ie, the island in time turn, your swift is consumed, so you can't boost. You could make the argument that Island in Time says "you can use all your actions as normal" giving you the swift but, I'd question that interpretation, as "as normal" to me means bound by the typical rules, and that would make it really strange to state that Island in Time is "as an immediate action" instead of as a free action (since it's already limited to once per encounter).

[Bakkan]

Builds using the Idiot Crusader trick have to be the best, in my opinion. It does rely on a particular (though reasonable) interpretation of some ambiguous rules, but sooner or later it's capable of doing one or more of the following (in approximately increasing order of power):


Use your Concentration check (x2, eventually) to deal damage every single round using (Greater) Insightful Strike.
Teleport and make a full attack three times per round, every round.
Take infinite turns; even if White Raven Tactics is ruled to only apply to others, you just need two Idiot Crusaders. This makes almost anything (not just combat) possible for an Idiot Crusader.
Give extra (or infinite) movement and melee attacks to your group via Order Forged from Chaos, Swarming Assault, and probably others.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Warblade recovery requires standard AND swift.

It might be possible to use a full attack. The wording for Warblade says you only have to use a standard action if you don't attack at all. On the other hand, full attack could be separate from "attack action", since there's nothing saying that the full-round action "full attack" is a subtype of the standard action "attack".

[TIPOT]

The old bag of rats with great cleave and blood in the water is pretty abusive if not quite a fully fleshed out build yet.

[Talionis]

If you want something good, but fair... You might try 1 Unarmed Swordsage/ 2 Totemist/ 4 Incarnate/7 Unarmed Swordsage/1 Sun Moon Ninja/5 Master of Nine... 3 levels of Umbral Disciple can replace some of the incarnate or Totemist levels to taste. This can easily be a good skill monkey a little healing with the Shadow Sun Ninja first level and a little natural attack optimization. You can trip well Setting Sun can make good use of that with Cobalt Tactics, Phoenix Claws, and Mauling Guantlets, Midnight Dodge, and Soulsight can add essentia and help to qualify for Master of Nine. You have a lot of great ways to increase your speed and then many of the Desert Wind attacks and the Ninth level Setting Sun maneuver can use the speed to great effect.

Another option to mix into any of these builds is using Legacy Champion to progress Master of Nine. Thirteen levels of Master of Nine can be a very rewarding build.

[Jack_Simth]

This is a ridiculous build. The clones have eighth or ninth level maneuvers. This is stronger than D2 Crusader. It's an infinite number of being able to attack, move, or do whatever you want.Not quite infinite. BOB clones have 1/4 the caster's HP. So if you have, say 1024 HP when you cast it initially, the clones has 256 HP. Then the clones' clones have 64, the next generation 16, then 4, then 1. That last generation's clones have 0 HP and can't do anything without killing themselves - which then deals 10 damage to their parent, killing it, which deals 10 damage to it's parent, killing it, which deals 10 damage to it's parent... which only dies if 2 or more BOB clones do that.

You get a very large number, don't get me wrong; at, say, CL 20, you get 4 clones per casting, and that 1024 HP lasts 5 generations - it's unlikely you'll get that high, though, as that pretty much requires a Con modifier in the neighborhood of +45. So it's a lot more likely you'll have around 256 HP, and get 4 generations. So 4 clones at generation 1, 16 at generation 2, 64 at generation 3, 256 at generation 4. 256+64+16+4+You = 341 sets of actions each round (after the first; first one you've used up your important action types setting off the chain, and only the last generation goes - 256).

[Mato]

Q: Strongest ToB build that isn't D2 crusader?
A: It's going to come down to one of three types depending on how you meant that question.

If you meant pure-ToB style build, a warblade/swordsage/master of nine will have the greatest versatility and multiple methods of breaking the game for combat advantages.

If you meant something that dips or uses ToB, I'd say some form of metallic true dragon that advances JPM. He'd have all the cleric spells, the wizard spells, maneuvers, on top of his metabreath and diverse natural weapons.

And if you meant human only without LA, I'm inclined to go with the divine side, aka RKV, for the additional swift actions which can retransliterate to quickened spells and more boosts. An archivist/RKV for example could pull 99.9% of the tricks already mentioned in this thread and still show you new ones.

[Talionis]

Not quite infinite. BOB clones have 1/4 the caster's HP. So if you have, say 1024 HP when you cast it initially, the clones has 256 HP. Then the clones' clones have 64, the next generation 16, then 4, then 1. That last generation's clones have 0 HP and can't do anything without killing themselves - which then deals 10 damage to their parent, killing it, which deals 10 damage to it's parent, killing it, which deals 10 damage to it's parent... which only dies if 2 or more BOB clones do that.

You get a very large number, don't get me wrong; at, say, CL 20, you get 4 clones per casting, and that 1024 HP lasts 5 generations - it's unlikely you'll get that high, though, as that pretty much requires a Con modifier in the neighborhood of +45. So it's a lot more likely you'll have around 256 HP, and get 4 generations. So 4 clones at generation 1, 16 at generation 2, 64 at generation 3, 256 at generation 4. 256+64+16+4+You = 341 sets of actions each round (after the first; first one you've used up your important action types setting off the chain, and only the last generation goes - 256).
341 swift, movement, and Standard actions is probably enough. They are probably all can be in the 8th level Indominable Fortitude Stance. Those varied types of actions are much more flexible than infinite attack actions.

And if the original is Transend Mortality it's pretty unstoppable.

[Jack_Simth]

341 swift, movement, and Standard actions is probably enough. They are probably all can be in the 8th level Indominable Fortitude Stance. Those varied types of actions are much more flexible than infinite attack actions.

And if the original is Transend Mortality it's pretty unstoppable.

Oh, don't get me wrong: It's stupidly strong if the DM doesn't decide that the phrase "In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell" as part of the Spell-like abilities general description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) implies that if a BOB clone is forbidden from casting spells (which they are), then they're also forbidden from using spell-like abilities, so you really only get the four clones. Even if the DM does decide that, it's still rather strong.