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kkortekaas
2007-05-15, 06:57 AM
Hey Folks,
I've got a PC that wants to play a very specialized Evoker in my upcoming campaign and I've got a couple questions.

Currently, he essentially wants to stack the Energy Affinity (Fire) Evoker Varient (Unearthed Arcane pg 59) as well as the Varient from Complete Mage Master Specialized (could have the name wrong, it's where you give up a general spell per level and 2 additional schools of magic to gain 2 in your chosen school)

First, I don't know if this is allowed, they both have different negatives that don't stake, so his Wizard will be at a hefty disadventange....what does everyone thing of this?

Now for his feat choices, he's planning on taking

Bloodline of Fire (FRcS)
Precocious Apprentice (Complete Arcane)

Now, I wouldn't have a problem with these feat choices normally but Bloodine allows all fire spells to be cast at +1 casterlevel. This coupled with the Energy Affinity varient will cause his fire spells to be cast at +3 lvl which is pretty hefty. And with his Apprentice feat, he'll net a level 2 spell a couple levels before he should...houghts on this?

He has also mentioned that he'd like to nab a Reserve feat, the one from Complete Mage that lets him chuck 1d6 fireballs around if he keeps a level 2 spell...would his Precocious Apprentice feat allow him to do this ahead of schedule?

Arbitrarity
2007-05-15, 07:17 AM
From an optimization standpoint, reserve feats and precocious apprentice are junk. Even reserve feats. That's no fireball, it's 1d6.



In effect, you have an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used to cast the chosen spell, and cannot be used for any other purpose.

Dunno about that one. It would seem so, as you have a second level spell prepared of the appropriate sort, but the next clause...

If the specialization and the energy affinity are at the same substitution level, they don't work. If one's at 3rd and another at 1st, they work. Not 100% sure about that, but pretty sure.

kkortekaas
2007-05-15, 07:28 AM
From what I understand,
Energy Affinity causes you to loose your Familiar, and gain Energy Affinity

And the

Master Specialist causes you to loose 2 more schools (could be 3) thus bringing the total of prohibitated schools up to 4, and loosing a general spell per day + and gaining 2 additional Evocations per day.

Both of these occur at first level.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-15, 07:33 AM
It all should stack. He will be a good evoker but generally suck for everything else.

So just be glad that he isn't playing battle field control and be happy.

Oh, and his feat choice is decidedly subpar.

EDIT: The reason they stack is because they aren't both substitution levels. Master Specialist is a PrC and that is one of the Master Specialist benefits. Both aren't substitution levels that are taken at the same level. IIRC.

EDIT: Yeah, master specialist can't even be entered until level 3 if he is going human. And he won't get the caster level increase until teh 6th level of the class.

kkortekaas
2007-05-15, 07:39 AM
I might have the name wrong for Master Specialist...I know it's in Complete Mage and that it is a varient for evokers....maybe Focused Specialist?

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-15, 07:46 AM
No. You have the class name right.

It just has skill rank requirements of Rank 5 which means the minimum entry level is 2. Then you need to spend 6 levels in the class to gain the +1 CL to your chosen school. At 9 levels in the PrC you get +2 CL to your chosen school.

The evoker variant gives you +1 to your CL when casting spells of the proper element.

Now if he really wanted to he could get into Archmage at later levels and pick up a +1 CL from that. Then another +1 from the Ioun Stone. And a third +1 from the Bead of Karma.

So he could at level 20 get a CL of 26 for evocation spells with the fire descriptor. A CL of 25 for all other evocation spells. And a CL of 23 for all other spells.

Honestly it isn't that great. He is an evoker who is giving up 3 other schools.

lotofsnow
2007-05-15, 07:49 AM
I might have the name wrong for Master Specialist...I know it's in Complete Mage and that it is a varient for evokers....maybe Focused Specialist?

Yeah, it is Focused Specialist on page 34 of Complete Mage. It is a variant taken at 1st level. Master Specialist is the PrC from the same book.

kkortekaas
2007-05-15, 07:52 AM
So I guess it's back to my original question, can the player in question stack Varients, IE. Become a Evoker taking both the Energy Affinity & the Focused Spellcaster Varients at the same time.

I was leaning towards yes, mainly because the negatives incured are different. But now I'm not so sure.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-15, 07:53 AM
Ah yes. But focused specialist doesn't affect CL. It just gives 2 spell slots.

And IIRC you can't stack variants so no dice on that one.

Although you can stack a variant and a substitution level.

kkortekaas
2007-05-15, 07:58 AM
Anyway you can think of to create this character concept tippy?

The PC in question is planning on playing a Calimshan native who's pretty obsessed with Fire, hence the crazy specialization. The player is also aware that rules wise, this probably isn't' the smartest specialization, but he's doing it for flavor, and it sounds like a cool character to play.

He's planning on taking the Energy Subsitution Metamagic feat at 3rd level, and henceforth cast solely fire spells.

Thoughts?

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-15, 08:01 AM
He may want to look at some of the sorcerer variants. They generally make better blasters than wizards do.

And if you allow him to specialize like wizards it gets even better. Just replace spells per day with spells known as the benefit of specialization.

He can use the PHB 2 variant where he gives up his familiar to get no increase to casting time from Energy Substitution levels.

Or look at Psion. They make the best blasters.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-05-15, 08:02 AM
And IIRC you can't stack variants so no dice on that one.
In this case you can. They aren't variant class levels. They're variant class features. You give one feature up for another feature.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-15, 08:05 AM
I thought that they counted as variant classes?

Ah well. If they are features then yeah, you can stack them.

I would still recommend sorcerer over wizard for blaster.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-05-15, 08:13 AM
I thought that they counted as variant classes?
Well, the Unearthed Arcana variant came about before variant features were formalized. As such, that might be worded as a variant class. But all you're really doing is trading one feature (the familiar) for another. Indeed, Energy Affinity is from a section where each specialist had three variants that you were encouraged to mix and match as you please. So it's really just another type of variant feature. (Additionally the names of the variants themselves make better feature names than class names)

Focused Specialist, as presented, is clearly a variant feature. Even if Energy Affinity Evoker were more in lines with a variant class, I would see no problem with allowing the use of the Focused Specialist feature variant along with it as long as the Energy Affinity Evoker retained an appropriate prohibited schools feature to exchange for the Focused Specialist ability.

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-15, 08:18 AM
Oh, balance wise I have no problem with all of it stacking.

He's an evoker for gods sake.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-05-15, 08:25 AM
He's an evoker for gods sake.
Could be worse.

He could be a warmage. :smallwink:

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-15, 08:27 AM
Nope, a warmage might actually make a better fireball thrower then a wizard. :smalltongue:

Theodoxus
2007-05-15, 08:30 AM
Or look at Psion. They make the best blasters.

Psion, imo, would totally be the best choice. Kineticist energy powers have energy substitution as part of their base ability - everything he 'cast' would be fire based from day one. Jump into the Pyrokinetic PrC and he'll be one happy happy pyromaniac. The player is giving up a lot to play in concept, might as well get something back - like the ability to use armor.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-05-15, 08:32 AM
Nope, a warmage might actually make a better fireball thrower then a wizard. :smalltongue:
'Cept that's all the warmage does. Even this über-specialized Evoker should have more versatility than that.

Telonius
2007-05-15, 09:06 AM
Large supply of fireball-like thingies ... sounds like a Warlock to me. But yes, if he wants to play a PHB class, and if he's only throwing around a few kinds of blasty spells, Sorcerer is the way to go.

I'd suggest to him that, if he's taking Energy Substitution(Fire), don't take very many fire-based spells. He can always use the base spell if he happens to come across something that's immune to fire.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-05-15, 09:20 AM
I'd suggest to him that, if he's taking Energy Substitution(Fire), don't take very many fire-based spells. He can always use the base spell if he happens to come across something that's immune to fire.
Along those lines, see if he can get his party mates either immune or at least heavily resistant to fire as well. That way he doesn't have to be too careful when aiming.

Had lots of fun that way with an Air Elemental Savant who constantly threw electric fireballs on top of his half-celestial paladin teammate. (Yeah, he was surrounded by bad guys at the time...)

SpiderBrigade
2007-05-15, 11:40 AM
'Cept that's all the warmage does. Even this über-specialized Evoker should have more versatility than that.Very true. Yeah, he has to ban 3 schools, and won't be able to have every spell he wants like a regular batman wizard. But he will still have access to a lot of flexibility, if he picks his spells properly.

I will also second the notion that the character should pick lots of non-fire evocations, and Energy Sub them to be fire. His concept is "Really likes fire," not "swore a holy oath to only use fire spells." So when he has to bust out Cone of Cold instead of his usual "Fire Cone", he'll be really annoyed, but still effective. Of course this doesn't mean he shouldn't learn the fire-based classics (Sorching Ray, Fireball, etc).

Also, Shhalahr, bonus points for actually bothering to put the umlaut on über :smallwink:

Fax Celestis
2007-05-15, 11:45 AM
Ï lïkë ümläüts.

kkortekaas
2007-05-15, 11:49 AM
Thanks for the help guys, I'll pass the info along.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-05-15, 12:03 PM
Also, Shhalahr, bonus points for actually bothering to put the umlaut on über :smallwink:
I only wish I could put one on an 'N' so I can spell 'Spinal Tap' correctly. :smallbiggrin: