Using the silence spell

[Officer Joy]

So i'm playing DnD5 in a very new group. None of the players have played any version of DnD(or other) before, And the DM only had played 3.5 before trying his hand as a DM and buying all the books.
We have a paladin, a rouge and a Clerc(me)
Our DM is very(too in my oppinion) generous with magic items and longrests. Its almost never that we have more than one encounter per longrest
As such we punch above our weight.

So as 3 lv 5s we "had" to attack a litch in his lair. I had the idea to use a webspell from an item cast by one of my friends to trap the litch and a silence from me to really cut down on his spellcasting.
The DM was really against that and believed that I was wrong to think that a sillence would prevent it from spellcasting.
the game shut down for 5/10 min while he looked it up, and he couldn't find any reference online of peoples having used that so he still didn't believe it viable. In the end i was able to convince him by saying that the reason it's not OP is by pointing out the small radius, and that the hard part would be to keep him in the range of the spell. So I got my way but only after much disscusion.

(Then he cast Disspell/counterspell (don't remeber) on my silence spell and freed himself from the web before it was my turn again.

So then he had to fudge a lot of rolls to let us survive the battle. :/


I wonder if it was a good idea of mine, or that my brother was right to argue against it.

Thanks for your time.

[Strill]

It says right in the spell description at the very end. "Casting a spell that includes a verbal component is impossible there." Did you not read it?

And yes, the Lich can counterspell the Silence. No he can't cast Dispel Magic while he's already silenced.


and freed himself from the web before it was my turn again.He can do that if he spent his turn making a Strength check, or cast a teleportation spell like Misty Step.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Counterspelling Silence is a no-brainer for the lich, as long as it knows that's what your casting, which is pretty likely given its Intelligence stat and Arcana skill. And the fact it could be using Detect Thoughts.

It's pretty reckless, asking a 5th-level party to attack a lich, magic items or not. Were you supposed to run away? Or negotiate?

[Officer Joy]

It says right in the spell description at the very end. "Casting a spell that includes a verbal component is impossible there." Did you not read it?
I did but,

It's a level 2 spell, the lich is a level 18 caster how could that possible stop him.
But he did give in. It's just that it stopped the game to discuss it. Wich bothered me most.


He can do that if he spent his turn making a Strength check, or cast a teleportation spell like Misty Step.
he had his minions free him


Counterspelling Silence is a no-brainer for the lich, as long as it knows that's what your casting, which is pretty likely given its Intelligence stat and Arcana skill. And the fact it could be using Detect Thoughts.
I assume now that's why no one uses that "trick".

I guess it's just our collective inexpirience that is at fault.

[hymer]

I guess it's just our collective inexpirience that is at fault.

Sounds like you got the rules part cleared up now. One piece of gamer wisdom you might use in the future, is to let the DM rule on it during the game (even if it's wrong, it gets the game moving again), and then argue and/or look up after the game (so you'll know what to do next time). A quick rules lookup usually doesn't break flow too badly; it's the arguments that tend to do this.

[Strill]

I assume now that's why no one uses that "trick".

I guess it's just our collective inexpirience that is at fault.

No, they absolutely do use it. All you were missing was a Wizard on your side to counterspell the Lich's counterspell.


It's a level 2 spell, the lich is a level 18 caster how could that possible stop him.Doesn't make the slightest bit of difference what level the lich is. He still can't cast verbal spells while silenced.


he had his minions free himAnd how did they avoid getting caught in the web as well?

[Officer Joy]

It's pretty reckless, asking a 5th-level party to attack a lich, magic items or not. Were you supposed to run away? Or negotiate?
He was guarding something that we needed so we can eventually defeat the big bad. And we could have possebly waited untill we were stronger to get. That seems pretty Meta-gamey to me.

Trying to negotiate is not something any of us considered. And I don't think thats what he immagined we would do. But in hindesight he might have let us.

But the how does one try to negotiate with a Evil/aggresive apponent, without letting it surprise us, attack us first?


Sounds like you got the rules part cleared up now. One piece of gamer wisdom you might use in the future, is to let the DM rule on it during the game (even if it's wrong, it gets the game moving again), and then argue and/or look up after the game (so you'll know what to do next time). A quick rules lookup usually doesn't break flow too badly; it's the arguments that tend to do this.
Yes I do try to let Rule 0 run it's cource as much as I can. I just couldn't help myself.



And how did they avoid getting caught in the web as well?2 minions used their action to destroy the web, one failed and one sucseeded it's roll. And then the web was destroyed.
I gather that was wrong?

[hymer]

And how did they avoid getting caught in the web as well?

I don't think there's anything wrong with the cinematic solution (and they have to go into the area of effect to get caught in the web - they should be able to machete/torch/rip from outside the AoE). There's precedent that web is destructible, too. If the minions were appropriately armed, I wouldn't object to them hacking their way through it. Just as long as that option is also available to PCs.


2 minions used their action to destroy the web, one failed and one sucseeded it's roll. And then the web was destroyed.
I gather that was wrong?

It's not supported by the rules, but neither is it ruled out. I think it makes perfect sense, and I'm glad to see that the minions had to use their actions and could fail.
Seems to me the DM's main mistake was having you fight an opponent he didn't quite understand. No biggie, underestimating a monster has happened to every DM.

[Strill]

2 minions used their action to destroy the web, one failed and one sucseeded it's roll. And then the web was destroyed.
I gather that was wrong?
The web is 20 feet across (a 4x4 square), and if you placed it right, the lich should've been in the middle of it. I'm having a hard time seeing how they got close enough to destroy the web without getting caught themselves.

[Officer Joy]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the cinematic solution (and they have to go into the area of effect to get caught in the web - they should be able to machete/torch/rip from outside the AoE). There's precedent that web is destructible, too. If the minions were appropriately armed, I wouldn't object to them hacking their way through it. Just as long as that option is also available to PCs.


The web is 20 feet across, and if you placed it right, the lich should've been in the middle of it. I'm having a hard time seeing how they got close enough to destroy the web without getting caught themselves.

They used Clubs to destroy the web. :smallsigh:
(the web colapes is how he described it) :smallsigh:
But you know I didn't want to argue again. Because it should stay fun for everyone :)



Seems to me the DM's main mistake was having you fight an opponent he didn't quite understand. No biggie, underestimating a monster has happened to every DM.
yes, he started by taking away it's kill word spell, because it would oneshot any one of us. After we were already on our way to it's lair.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I don't know, there's "underestimating a monster", and then there's throwing a CR22 über-boss (with minions?!) at 3no 5th-level PCs.

Per the DMG, a single CR7 monster (e.g. mind flyer, oni) is a deadly challenge for this party. Given that they're also "inexperienced", I would be hesitant about doing that , even.

[PoeticDwarf]

Agreed, I mean, maybe is it possible for three level five character to kill a CR 9 monster or CR 10 with luck but not one of CR 22 with minions...
I don't think the mistake of the DM was the silence spell (where he was also wrong) but the challange for the players, and that you HAVE TO ATTACK isn't fair, players may decide what they do...

[Officer Joy]

I don't know, there's "underestimating a monster", and then there's throwing a CR22 über-boss at 3no 5th-level PCs.

Per the DMG, a single CR7 monster (e.g. mind flyer, oni) is a deadly challenge for this party. Given that they're also "inexperienced", I would be hesitant about doing that , even.

Well there was also a DMPC that we asked to join us that kept us healed.

But yeah I don't really like the way that he is first very generous with Items and rests, and then get annoyed that the fights are to easy for us, trow higher CR at us, then not let us fail, by giving us more stuff, and telling us what he's fudging in our favour.


I plan to DM next.

[Strill]

Well there was also a DMPC that we asked to join us that kept us healed.

But yeah I don't really like the way that he is first very generous with Items and rests, and then get annoyed that the fights are to easy for us, trow higher CR at us, then not let us fail, by giving us more stuff, and telling us what he's fudging in our favour.


I plan to DM next.

My campaign is relatively light on combat as well. We use the DMG's alternative rules where a short rest is 8 hours and a long rest is 3 days.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I plan to DM next.

Probably a good idea. Make sure you read page 82 of the DMG closely!

[Officer Joy]

My campaign is relatively light on combat as well. We use the DMG's alternative rules where a short rest is 8 hours and a long rest is 3 days.

It's not even that light on combat (it's like 80% combat). But yes I plan to follow that. (or maybe only 1 whole day for a long rest, but who knows)


Probably a good idea. Make sure you read page 82 of the DMG closely!

Thanks I will next time i can borrow his book.

I don't know if i'll be that much better. I'll just have different weaknesses.
None I know is as good at improvising as my brother. We could ask a random NPC for his lifestory and we would get it.
I fear I might have more trouble if they really go of script. But railroding isn't fun, so i must find a way around that.


and that you HAVE TO ATTACK isn't fair, players may decide what they do...

He was in his lair not imidiately bothering anyone, so if we wanted to we could have chosen not to attack. But we had to get the items from it.

Maybe we could have tried diplomacy.

But the how does one try to negotiate with a Evil/aggresive opponent, without just wasting actions, and let it attack us first?

[Ninja_Prawn]

But the how does one try to negotiate with a Evil/aggresive apponent, without just wasing actions, and let it attack us first?

Well, traditionally:

Offer it something it wants. Liches often collect arcane curiosities and/or items of great power.
Help it solve a problem. Maybe it's under siege from some goodly heroes and wants to fake its own (re)death?
Threaten its weaknesses. For a lich, that would be its phylactery.
Trick it into thinking you're stronger than you are, maybe by impersonating famous adventurers/a rival lich/a God.

[hymer]

I don't know, there's "underestimating a monster", and then there's throwing a CR22 über-boss (with minions?!) at 3no 5th-level PCs.

Per the DMG, a single CR7 monster (e.g. mind flyer, oni) is a deadly challenge for this party. Given that they're also "inexperienced", I would be hesitant about doing that , even.

I had a DM who had 15-20 years experience when we switched to 3.X. He had some very strange notions about CR from sorta-halfway reading about it. CR10 at first meant to him that it'd be an appropriate challenge to five level 2s, and that five creatures of equal CR to the five PCs' level would be an easy fight. It took a while for him to adjust.
OP's DM is new. He'll learn. :smallsmile:

[Corey]

I liked 3.5 Silence, because you could cast it on an object. E.g., cast it on a pebble, throw the pebble into a group of enemies by a campfire (who won't hear it plink and hence won't know exactly where it landed), and riddle them with arrows while they figure things out (coordinating plans will be tricky for them).

Giving the pebble to a flying familiar would be even more fun (leaving aside questions of which classes could or couldn't cast the spell), but I never actually did that.

And just carrying a silencing coin around could be useful for a rogue (unless he felt a great need to plant it in somebody's pouch). That was probably the most basic benefit of Silence's mobility, along with the advantages in meleeing a caster.

[coredump]

Common mistake for inexperienced DMs (and bad experienced DMs)
Give away too much gold and magic
Frustrated by encounters being too easy
Ramp up encounter danger
Shocked by almost TPK
'Cheat' to allow PCs to survive


Sounds like this happened to you guys. New DMs should stick with lower levels, not Liches.

My recommendation is to pick up the introduction box with Lost Mines of Phandelver. It's cheap and will help guide the amount of magic and level of bad guys. And you can get it for 12-20 dollars


Starter Set link (http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0786965592/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?qid=1442675346&sr=8-2&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=dungeons+and+dragons&dpPl=1&dpID=51Ykm93n8ML&ref=plSrch)

[SharkForce]

Common mistake for inexperienced DMs (and bad experienced DMs)
Give away too much gold and magic
Frustrated by encounters being too easy
Ramp up encounter danger
Shocked by almost TPK
'Cheat' to allow PCs to survive


Sounds like this happened to you guys. New DMs should stick with lower levels, not Liches.

My recommendation is to pick up the introduction box with Lost Mines of Phandelver. It's cheap and will help guide the amount of magic and level of bad guys. And you can get it for 12-20 dollars


Starter Set link (http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0786965592/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?qid=1442675346&sr=8-2&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=dungeons+and+dragons&dpPl=1&dpID=51Ykm93n8ML&ref=plSrch)

i thought lost mines of phandelver was (amusingly enough) a ridiculoudly deadly adventure (mostly because WotC changed the stats on various monsters after the adventure was "completed" and then changed the monsters in the adventure without bothering to check if they were still appropriate for the level).

or am i thinking of a different adventure?

[JNAProductions]

That's Hoard of the Dragon Queen, methinks.

[MaxWilson]

Thanks I will next time i can borrow his book. *snip*

Maybe we could have tried diplomacy.

But the how does one try to negotiate with a Evil/aggresive opponent, without just wasting actions, and let it attack us first?

Page 82 of the DMG is the same as page 56 of the Basic Rules, available here: http://media.wizards.com/2014/downloads/dnd/DMBasicRulesv.0.3.pdf

There's an automated tool that computes difficulty using those rules, here: http://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder

RE: negotiation, it depends on the intiative rules you're using, but if you're using bog-standard PHB rules, then negotiation probably occurs by loudly shouting, "Halloo! Mr. Lich? Anyone at home?" If you're already in combat you may have to combine this with a Dodge or Dash away while screaming, "Wait! Wait! Can't we all just get along?!?"

Anyway, you may have won that one but no harm done. The lich will be back soon, good as new and twice as angry, and you'll get to negotiate with it then! (Liches don't die when you kill them.)

[Officer Joy]

There's an automated tool that computes difficulty using those rules, here: http://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder

Darn that's a usefull tool.
Thanks a lot, that will make it very easy to make appropriate encounters if I DM.

[Inevitability]

That's Hoard of the Dragon Queen, methinks.

Indeed. Thought I also think they forgot to factor in the rules regarding encounters with lots of little monsters there. Those 1st-chapter fights become far less ridiculous when you assume eight CR 1/8 monsters are the same as one CR1 monster.