Comics in PNG/SVG?

[Zaha]

It seems that there have been problems with the server bandwidth lately after new comics are posted. I don't know if it has been discussed before (a quick forum search returned no results), but this might help:

The comics on this site are now in GIF format, I think they should be in PNG instead (for those who didn't know, PNG is another lossless bitmap graphic format). I experimented by converting a strip to PNG and got the size of the original graphic down by about 20% by using the best compression level. It's not that much, but might help a bit during the worst traffic. PNG has also been supported by all new web browsers for at least 5 years so there's hardly need to stick to the older GIF for compatibility purposes anymore.

Additionally, many new browsers have support for SVG (Scalable Vector Graphics). As OOTS seems to be drawn entirely in vector graphics, the file size could go down dramatically if the files were saved as SVG. This version could maybe be offered alternatively to users whose browsers can handle it. Of course, the Giant might, for copyright reasons, not find it appropriate to offer the strips with vector models and an unlimited resolution.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Additionally, many new browsers have support for SVG (Scalable Vector Graphics).
Many, but not all. It's nowhere near as well supported as PNG.

For one, the browser I use doesn't do SVG at all. In theory, there's some sort of plugin that should work for it. I've heard of it, but I've had difficulty finding it.

[Erloas]

This has come up a couple times. The Gaint has even posted in some, but you'll have to find the quote yourself.

Basically what he said was that the size change from going from the gif he uses now to png is minor. He also said that the tools he uses to make the comic and post the comic and the tools the site uses to manage the files are made for gif and he would have to change many of the tools he uses to convert everything to png. There is also some issue with getting the books to press in that he would have to convert them all back to gif for the printers. As for hosting it, he said the code of the site would need to be changed to support PNG, and that the cost of hiring a reliable and trustworthy IT person to make the changes and support the code in the future would cost a lot more then several months of bandwidth. Its not the sort of job hes going to let anyone that thinks they know what they are doing (ie the community) to try.

That is the basics of it as I remember it last time this came up.

The other main point is that the majority of the bandwidth usage comes from the boards and not from the comic at all and reducing the comic greatly in size wouldn't do anything to fix the server issues which are mostly due to the boards.

[SPoD]

Erloas has it mostly right; Rich said that he use Adobe Photoshop to convert the files to GIF, and Photoshop is pretty crappy with PNGs. Since he uses a Mac and cannot access many of the freeware PNG-converters that may exist, he pretty much sticks with what he knows.

Also, as said, apaprently most of the bandwidth problem is from people flooding the message board to comment after the strip, not the strip itself. Which makes sense, since when they turned the boards off yesterday, the site was loading faster than I've ever seen it despite a strip having just been posted an hour before.

[Ra-Tiel]

[...] Basically what he said was that the size change from going from the gif he uses now to png is minor.
However, even 5KB less size can turn to GB of saved bandwidth when the comic is just viewed often enough.


[...] There is also some issue with getting the books to press in that he would have to convert them all back to gif for the printers.
Well, he could always save two versions of a comic, .GIF for the printer and .PNG for the web, couldn't he?


[...] As for hosting it, he said the code of the site would need to be changed to support PNG, and that the cost of hiring a reliable and trustworthy IT person to make the changes and support the code in the future would cost a lot more then several months of bandwidth.
Wh... what? :smalleek: The hosting software is b****ing around because of the file format? :smallconfused: Well, in that case I personally would advise to get a new hosting platform. That is a thing that just must not happen. A hosting software not capable of dealing with .PNG is like a calculator not capable of multiplying.


[...] Its not the sort of job hes going to let anyone that thinks they know what they are doing (ie the community) to try.
Of course you wouldn't. :smallwink:


[...] The other main point is that the majority of the bandwidth usage comes from the boards and not from the comic at all and reducing the comic greatly in size wouldn't do anything to fix the server issues which are mostly due to the boards.
Under this circumstance, wouldn't it be then better to put a 6 hours "cooldown" (read: script-controlled automatic locking) on the "new comic is up" thread instead of sending the whole forum down the drain?

[Zherog]

Under this circumstance, wouldn't it be then better to put a 6 hours "cooldown" (read: script-controlled automatic locking) on the "new comic is up" thread instead of sending the whole forum down the drain?

No, because then people would start their own threads. We'd have several threads for each point of the comic people wanted to discuss, rather than having it all contained in one place.

[Emperor Tippy]

Why not just shut down the OoTS forum instead of the whole board then? If that is really where the increased lag is coming from.

[Erloas]

...stuff

What I had said was a basic paraphrasing of Giant said last time this came up. At least to the best of my memory. I wasn't saying what I thought but what Giant said earlier. Of course I couldn't find the actual quote because this board makes posts disappear after about 2 months.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Of course I couldn't find the actual quote because this board makes posts disappear after about 2 months.
That's a default setting.

Go to your User CP, "Edit Options", and then find the box that says "Thread Display Options." There is an option labeled, "Default Thread Age Cut Off". You use this option to determine the oldest threads you want to see. Set it to "Show all threads," and you'll see every thread, no matter how old.

[Rawhide]

That's a default setting.

Go to your User CP, "Edit Options", and then find the box that says "Thread Display Options." There is an option labeled, "Default Thread Age Cut Off". You use this option to determine the oldest threads you want to see. Set it to "Show all threads," and you'll see every thread, no matter how old.

We highly recommend you leave the default cut off at one month to help reduce server strain. Please change it only when you need to inside the forum.

[Ra-Tiel]

No, because then people would start their own threads. We'd have several threads for each point of the comic people wanted to discuss, rather than having it all contained in one place.
What Emporer Tippy said. I just find it a somewhat questionable practice to deal with server/bandwidth issues to simply shut down the whole forums, even if only one sub-forum was responsible. It seems to be like closing a whole highway for miles because one car has a flat tyre.



What I had said was a basic paraphrasing of Giant said last time this came up. At least to the best of my memory. I wasn't saying what I thought but what Giant said earlier. Of course I couldn't find the actual quote because this board makes posts disappear after about 2 months.
I am sorry if I came across as a bit "snippish", it was really not my intention to do so. Even the message at the top of my screen says "bandwidth issues", yet the Giant deems the small size decrease gained by going from .GIF to .PNG "irrelevant"? :smallconfused:

I don't know the exact numbers, but let's say that a new comic is view 100K times when it is released, and an additional 10K times until the next strip is up. Assuming 3 strips a week, and 4 weeks a month, that makes 12 strips per month. Now, if the comic size was only 5KB less compared to .GIF, that would save 5KB * 12 strips * 110K views = 6.6GB per month.

Is that still "irrelevant" when you are already dealing with bandwidth troubles?



We highly recommend you leave the default cut off at one month to help reduce server strain. Please change it only when you need to inside the forum.
As I don't know the exact setup of the site's hardware... have you already tried putting the forums on a dedicated server, seperated from the server handling the comics and the rest of the site? Perhaps you could use multiple servers all hosting the same content, but with a loadbalancer put before them (a setup my university uses for their website)?

[Rawhide]

As I don't know the exact setup of the site's hardware... have you already tried putting the forums on a dedicated server, seperated from the server handling the comics and the rest of the site? Perhaps you could use multiple servers all hosting the same content, but with a loadbalancer put before them (a setup my university uses for their website)?
Are you offering to donate a server?

[Ra-Tiel]

Are you offering to donate a server?
Hey, I'm just a curious poor student. :smalltongue: But I know that usually hosting companies (at least over here where I live) charge by used bandwidth in adddition to how many servers you need. I'm just curious about all this stuff, because I'm studying this crap right now (bachelor of computer science). However, I know that it's not cheap. How did that saying go? "Impossible is just a matter of time and money."

Also, it's just that sometimes I'm baffled on how complicate some people try to make stuff. Just remember how long Mel over at the WotC forums has been struggling to get search back online and is still working on it. Things like that could have been prevented if a little more thought was given when the whole thing was set up in the first place.

Mind you, I'm not calling anyone here "incompetent" or something, it's just that things like this happen all over the place. If there is a good way and a better way of doing something, only the minority will take the better way. Also, I was seriously thrown off-balance a bit by the previous statement that the hosting software of the site was incapable of handling .PNG files. I just wonder why? Shouldn't the hosting software just resolve the <img src="..."/> tag to the correct image, and leave the rendering to the browser on the other end of the line? I wouldn't know why the software on the server should have anything to do with that. :smalleek:

[The Giant]

I don't know the exact numbers, but let's say that a new comic is view 100K times when it is released, and an additional 10K times until the next strip is up. Assuming 3 strips a week, and 4 weeks a month, that makes 12 strips per month. Now, if the comic size was only 5KB less compared to .GIF, that would save 5KB * 12 strips * 110K views = 6.6GB per month.

This website uses over 3600 GB per month. So yes, saving 6.6 GB is trivial, especially when compared to the time it would take me (personally) to research and establish a new workflow that included different programs to convert images. I have enough trouble getting stuff done on time already.

As far as shutting the message boards down to reduce server strain, the fact that it works so well is enough to leave it as our emergency measure. I've said this before, but anything that prevents people from reading the new comic when it goes up is, ultimately, something that needs to go. These boards are subservient to the comic, yet they account for more than 80% of our server costs and generate absolutely no revenue. The fact that we let them exist AT ALL is enough; if we need to take them down for a few hours to allow our primary content to be viewed, then that's what's going to happen.

Keep in mind that we are looking for solutions that will keep us from having to shut down large sections of the message board that you may have become accustomed to. If faced with the occasional outage or the permanent removal of, say, all of Silly Message Board Games and Play-by-Post, I think most users would opt for the occasional outage.

While we appreciate interest, we're not actually soliciting for solutions from users. We know most of the options available to us, and are considering them behind-the-scenes. Keep in mind that just because a solution is possible does NOT mean it is affordable; GiantITP.com is a small business with a very limited cashflow. We don't take in any money from the website directly, only through indirect merchandising.

So in summary, thanks, but we're dealing with this already.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

These boards are subservient to the comic, yet they account for more than 80% of our server costs and generate absolutely no revenue.
I can certainly concede that the bulk of the forums generate no revenue, but doesn't the Order of the Stick forum at least help generate and maintain fan interest in your products? If so, does it not help to generate revenue even if only indirectly?

Same goes for the Order of the Stick Adventure Game forum, actually. Almost forgot about that one.

[Ra-Tiel]

This website uses over 3600 GB per month. So yes, saving 6.6 GB is trivial, especially when compared to the time it would take me (personally) to research and establish a new workflow that included different programs to convert images. I have enough trouble getting stuff done on time already.
Thanks for the heads up. As said, I wasn't aware of the actual numbers of bandwidth usage your site produced. Ok, 3.6TB per month are massive, especially for a small business.


As far as shutting the message boards down to reduce server strain, the fact that it works so well is enough to leave it as our emergency measure. I've said this before, but anything that prevents people from reading the new comic when it goes up is, ultimately, something that needs to go. These boards are subservient to the comic, yet they account for more than 80% of our server costs and generate absolutely no revenue. The fact that we let them exist AT ALL is enough; if we need to take them down for a few hours to allow our primary content to be viewed, then that's what's going to happen.
You're right on that one. Loosing the forums for some time to make it possible to view the comic is absolutely right, although somewhat inconvenient for those not particularily interested in the current comic. But, as always, one has to strike a compromise and I really can understand and accept that.

But on a related note, the forums of a german computergaming magazine are very simple in design to keep bandwidth and server strain low. There are restricted avatars (less than 70kb, and .JPG only), only 120 characters and no images in signatures, and only one subforum where users can post images. And I personally could (and from now on will) live without my avatar. :smallsmile:


Keep in mind that we are looking for solutions that will keep us from having to shut down large sections of the message board that you may have become accustomed to. If faced with the occasional outage or the permanent removal of, say, all of Silly Message Board Games and Play-by-Post, I think most users would opt for the occasional outage.
True, true. And I really hope you find a suitable solution for this dilemma soon. I can really imagine this being a drag down for you and your staff, too. And I guess you're also correct with your guess that most users would prefer a short loss of forum accessibility to a permanent loss of some subforums.


While we appreciate interest, we're not actually soliciting for solutions from users. We know most of the options available to us, and are considering them behind-the-scenes. Keep in mind that just because a solution is possible does NOT mean it is affordable; GiantITP.com is a small business with a very limited cashflow. We don't take in any money from the website directly, only through indirect merchandising.

So in summary, thanks, but we're dealing with this already.
As I have mentioned in a previous post, I am well aware that all commercial hosting services are quite expensive. Also, I know from university that not every possible solution is also a feasible solution.

And the current state is still preferrable to a site plastered with layer-ads, flash-banners, and intellitxt-links. :smallannoyed:

[The Giant]

I can certainly concede that the bulk of the forums generate no revenue, but doesn't the Order of the Stick forum at least help generate and maintain fan interest in your products? If so, does it not help to generate revenue even if only indirectly?

Same goes for the Order of the Stick Adventure Game forum, actually. Almost forgot about that one.

Very indirectly, so much so that it can't be measured.

The thing to see is this: only about 10% of our readers have ever registered an account for the forum (and less than half post regularly), and only about 3% of our readers have ever purchased a single piece of merch. How much do those two groups overlap? Nobody knows. But as you said, that's only a small portion of the forums anyway.


But on a related note, the forums of a german computergaming magazine are very simple in design to keep bandwidth and server strain low. There are restricted avatars (less than 70kb, and .JPG only), only 120 characters and no images in signatures, and only one subforum where users can post images. And I personally could (and from now on will) live without my avatar. :smallsmile:

We feel that the creation of custom avatars/sig images in the OOTS style is an integral part of this message board community. It's part of what makes the GITP forums the GITP forums. I don't see us eliminating that unless we are on the verge of shutting the board down entirely (which at this time, we aren't).

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Very indirectly, so much so that it can't be measured.
M'kay. Good to know.


We feel that the creation of custom avatars/sig images in the OOTS style is an integral part of this message board community. It's part of what makes the GITP forums the GITP forums. I don't see us eliminating that unless we are on the verge of shutting the board down entirely (which at this time, we aren't).
And custom images are hosted from elsewhere. It really doesn't affect your bandwidth too much. I really don't see what gain you could possibly have by shutting them down.

The restriction to JPEGs on that other board puzzles me, though. I'd think most avatars would compress better as GIFs.

[Alfryd]

I experimented by converting a strip to PNG and got the size of the original graphic down by about 20% by using the best compression level.
Been there, done that. Rich apparently spends more on hiring his programmers' services for a day than he pays in bandwidth charges for a month. Of course, the fans might appreciate slightly shorter download times, but it seems unlikely this will be implemented in the near future.


...only about 10% of our readers have ever registered an account for the forum (and less than half post regularly), and only about 3% of our readers have ever purchased a single piece of merch. How much do those two groups overlap? Nobody knows.
I dunno about that. I would presume fans invested enough to actually buy the books would probably feel disposed to comment on the boards on occasion. Whether the absence of the fora would make any difference to their spending habits is another question...

[Dr. Magic]

Been there, done that. Rich apparently spends more on hiring his programmers' services for a day than he pays in bandwidth charges for a month. Of course, the fans might appreciate slightly shorter download times, but it seems unlikely this will be implemented in the near future.


I dunno about that. I would presume fans invested enough to actually buy the books would probably feel disposed to comment on the boards on occasion. Whether the absence of the fora would make any difference to their spending habits is another question...

If anyone's curious, I was a reader for about 5-6 months who never posted on forums (I don't really like to, usually), but I do own all 4 trades. I recently posted after 484 moved me to... excitement, i guess, and I sent my review of the series to the 484 thread. So, eventually I posted on the site, but only months after reading and buying the books. So I'd imagine there are a fair bit like me - who like supporting something, but don't have the time to contribute to it's message board too much.