Cleave and Trip

[Ruethgar]

So Cleave typically triggers off of death or <0 HP, but actually triggers when you drop an opponent, so if you trip someone, would it be able to trigger since you just dropped them?

[Flickerdart]

No. That's not what that word means.

[Ruethgar]

The examples seem to suggest that making someone go prone is dropping them.

I suppose it could also require helplessness(so paralysis could work), but as "drop" is not a defined D&D term it is supposed to fall to English which tripping most definitely would fit into.

[Flickerdart]

Don't start the whole dictionary thing.

"If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop..."

Literally the first sentence. Trip doesn't work off damage, so it doesn't trigger.

[Kesnit]

Don't start the whole dictionary thing.

"If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop..."

Literally the first sentence. Trip doesn't work off damage, so it doesn't trigger.

Not that I am disagreeing with your overall argument (I'm not), but Trip can trigger off damage, via the Knock Down feat. :smallsmile:

[Flickerdart]

Not that I am disagreeing with your overall argument (I'm not), but Trip can trigger off damage, via the Knock Down feat. :smallsmile:
Damage triggers Knockdown. Knockdown triggers trip. Damage does not trigger trip - you're still tripping by making a trip check.

[Ruethgar]

Enough damage to make a creature drop is null since trip requires no damage dealt. Though I think knockdown would work to more completely qualify since you have dealt enough damage to drop the foe(whether you are successful in dropping them or not).

[Flickerdart]

Enough damage to make a creature drop is null since trip requires no damage dealt.
That's not how trigger conditions work. It's not "when you drop a foe" and trying to rewrite the words on the page is wishful thinking.


Though I think knockdown would work to more completely qualify since you have dealt enough damage to drop the foe(whether you are successful in dropping them or not).
No. Knockdown doesn't qualify because it's not direct. Saying that Knockdown trips by dealing damage is like saying that taking feats trips your opponent (because you can select Knockdown) and therefore heroics trips.

[Ruethgar]

Eh, was worth a shot. Would have been cool to be able to expand the usefulness of non-ToB mundanes.

[Flickerdart]

An extra attack doesn't expand the usefulness of mundanes. They could already make attacks. It would just constitute another linear increase of the kind they have plenty of.

[Ruethgar]

Great Cleave tripping people would do well for mundane lockdown builds. Not just extra attacks, but stopping people in their tracks and making them easier to kill(for melee anyway). Sure it is still combat oriented and so doesn't expand their options for contributions, but it would make them a little better at crowd control which is just about the only decent route they can take besides über charger.

[TheifofZ]

There are plenty of solid lockdown builds that don't require delving into the mediocre cleave tree to be good, and even if you could shenanigan trip to proc cleave, it's still not actually addressing the primary issue.
Mundane fighter types alter the world around them by hitting it very hard, often in specialized and complicated ways, to make it stop moving.
Caster types alter the world around them by deciding they don't like the look of it very much, sneezing and flicking their fingers a couple times, and making the laws of physics and the skein of reality itself dance a can-can. Or a waltz, if they prefer.
Edit: Sometimes Swing or a Cha-cha might also be acceptable.

[Andezzar]

Enough damage to make a creature drop is null since trip requires no damage dealt. Though I think knockdown would work to more completely qualify since you have dealt enough damage to drop the foe(whether you are successful in dropping them or not).If you deal no damage and drop an opponent (in the sense of making him prone) you have dealt enough damage to drop him. There is no rule that sufficient damage cannot be smaller than 1.

[Curmudgeon]

If you deal no damage and drop an opponent (in the sense of making him prone) you have dealt enough damage to drop him. There is no rule that sufficient damage cannot be smaller than 1.
That doesn't solve the problem, though. If you haven't dealt any damage, you cannot claim that you've dealt sufficient damage for any purpose. The dropping is unrelated.

[TheifofZ]

Rules as Intended seems to clearly be 'put the target's health below 0, causing them to fall unconscious' when cleave is discussed.
The terminology used consistently in regards to enemies that are on the ground but not unconscious is 'knocked prone'. Downed only comes up in regards, very specifically, to enemies knocked unconscious or killed.

And of course, rules interpretation is finalized by a group's DM, and I don't think many DMs would say that "Yeah, the feat that represents hitting an enemy so hard that your weapon slams into his ally too can definitely be procced off of the act of sweeping someone's leg out from under them."