Core bards in combat?

[Seharvepernfan]

In a core game, what should a bard be doing in combat? They have spells, but they can't be blowing them round after round in every fight. They can use wands and other items, sure, but those are expensive. They have no innate source of damage (like sneak attack). Besides singing, what are they supposed to do?
Using spells in opportune moments is a given, as is helping set up flanks with the rogue or similar things, but in general? I have little experience with bards, but my best guess is that, for core, they should probably grab a buckler and shortbow and generally stay out of harms way while providing buffs and occasional spells.

You can get decent damage with a bow by piling enhancements on the bow and the arrows (+1 flaming orcbane holy bow with +1 frost shock anarchic arrows or whatever), though anybody can do that.

What would you say?

[Strigon]

Buffs, mostly.
Inspire courage and the like help, and you might also consider investing in some battlefield control items, like Tanglefoot bags.

Edit:
When playing a bard, you've got to get used to the fact that you're largely going to be a support character, rarely in the limelight. (Well, maybe that's the wrong phrase; being a Bard, you'll often have the ability to steal the limelight. You'll rarely be able to solve challenges yourself, is what I mean.)
The only place you're likely to be the answer to a problem is a social interaction, otherwise just give your allies +2 to their skill checks, and hand out Bardic Knowledge at every opportunity.

[StreamOfTheSky]

As long as everyone's using core only, Bard will be decent in combat. It's just that the things that make you good at fighting (mostly inspire courage) apply to everyone, so the actual warrior characters will still be better than you. You can use a 2H weapon and power attack, then each +1 of inspire courage is giving you +3 damage. Since core doesn't have that many feats worth taking anyway, it might be better to go as an archer, snagging the three critical feats (PBS, Precise, and Rapid Shot) and adding your inspire bonus to those attacks. Bard is also proficient with whips, you could make a trip and/or disarm build that uses the long reach of the whip to your advantage. Disarming spell components from enemy casters can be handy...

Don't discount the spells, though. Bard gets some really nice unique and early entry options. Tasha's Hideous Laughter can end an encounter and is a 1st level bard spell. At the high end, Otto's Irresistible Dance will take out an foe not immune to mind-affecting without fail. Glibness makes it possible to lie about anything. Sculpt Sound is a potent way to neuter a bunch of spellcasters on top of its non-combat uses.

[legomaster00156]

If you feel like you're underperforming (no pun intended) when using Inspire Courage, look at it this way: the extra damage? You did that, that's damage from the Bard. An attack that would have missed if not for Inspire Courage? That entire attack's damage was done by the Bard - and hey, that gets the Inspire Courage damage buff, too!

[Gabrosin]

Core-only has it tough. With just a d6 HD and an affinity for light armor, you probably have the right path: focus a little harder on dexterity, stand back and fire some arrows. Your inspire courage bonus will make your damage output respectable, even as it makes your allies all look awesome, but even this loses a lot without access to inspirational boost, Badge of Valor, and the mwk instruments from Complete Adventurer/Song and Silence. If the MIC is included, you can make yourself a bit more formidable in melee by picking up a Crystal Echoblade and a Psychoactive Skin of Ectoplasmic Armor, though with a high dex a Chain Shirt +2 or +3 will offer equivalent protection for a similar price.

Another option, if your DM handwaves the alignment conflict, is to take a couple levels of paladin, which'll get you a huge boost to your saves from divine grace, plus some more HP and lay on hands. If the Paladin of Freedom variant is allowed, you shouldn't have any alignment issues. (Or Paladin of Slaughter if you're dipping into the evil end of the pool.) You could gear up to full plate and reserve your spells for social encounters. It's a worthwhile dip, but not as strong as dipping Crusader or Warblade from Tome of Battle in games where those are allowed.

[Crux Argentum]

As Strigon said, a core bard is most likely going to be a support character only. I had an idea for a core bard focusing on pumped up STR while using a whip with Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, and Improved Trip. 15 ft reach will allow you to stay pretty safe. You won't do any damage, but as an enemy, dropping your weapon/wand/staff all the time has gotta be pretty annoying. So is falling prone and getting wailed on all the time, plus all the attacks of opportunity raining down on your cranium every time you try to stand up. Throw in healthy doses of Inspire Courage and spell buffs - not exactly a "powerful" character, but certainly a menace.

[Flickerdart]

In core, a bard has the "master of none" thing going against it, but consider the following - with his Knowledge skills and Bardic Knowledge, a bard is in the position to always know what the right tool for the job is. Is the creature's will weak? Spells. Is it fragile and poor in combat? Time to draw your sword.

Because bards can't blow a spell every round, they should focus on buff and debuff spells that last for a while. At almost any level a bard will have at least four castings available for its highest and second highest level spells. Spells like alter self or glitterdust don't suddenly lose their usefulness at level 7. Cast a buff at the start of combat (or just before a combat), then start singing. The fight will be over in 1-2 rounds after that anyway.

Bards are also great at avoiding combat, through diplomacy, stealth, or Fascinate and Suggestion abilities.

[StreamOfTheSky]

...I really feel the need to point out that Bard is still the 5th most powerful class in core.
And while there's a big gap from the #4 spot (Sorcerer, most likely) to #5, there's also a pretty big gap from #5 to #6 (Ranger, I guess? Maybe Paladin?).

You're hardly the weakest person in the party. You may well be the 2nd most powerful.

[Seharvepernfan]

I meant once combat has begun, what does a bard spend his time doing, besides the things I mentioned.

Archery?

Enlarge person + whip + improved trip/disarm?

Power attack with polearm?

I'm just making sure I'm not missing something.

[AvatarVecna]

Beyond bardic performance, a bard's standard stuff in combat is either "standard combat tactics" like attacking with weapons, tripping, or disarming...or combining those with the occasional spell. From martials with their weapons to mages with their wands/rods/staves, using a whip and Improved Disarm to take it away before/after hitting them with Blindness makes them much less threatening. The worst you can do is be ineffective, and if you're playing a bard, the party is probably pretty solid without you anyway.

Even in the early days, when Elan wasn't very competent, the Order didn't really need him to accomplish stuff, and if he failed trying to accomplish something, nothing more than a small opportunity was lost, and the team wasn't really worse off for his failure to contribute (since they expected that anyway).

[Warrnan]

At low level a light crossbow and later the shortbow with rapid shot will be your best bet. Pair this with a high Dex so you can win initiative and crank up the music and buffs.

So 1)inspire courage 2) spells 3) shoot them in their filthy faces. Keeps you back so you can sling spells or arrows at your leisure. Grab a wand of cure light and you are golden. Also crank your int and be the master strategist telling the party the foes exact weakness with your knowledges.

Not too shabby for core only.

Alternately a longspear or longsword and power attack if you really want to do melee.

[ericgrau]

Bards have a deserved reputation for being weak in casual groups, though undeserved otherwise. You really do have to know what you are doing. To be blunt the advice focusing on weapons and music will end in disaster.

I don't think you should use a weapon often. Maybe a backup weapon. Spells and skills are your main shtick. Spells in combat, skills out of it. You should have enough spells per day to hold up to a 15 minute adventuring day, but if you expect it to be longer then you do need backup strategies. Pick popular wizard spells: haste, glitterdust, silent image, etc. Some spells are bard only or at a lower level for bards, and so are worth a second look. Glibness and rage for example. Though the amazing glibness is a skill spell, not really a combat spell, so as nice as it is I wouldn't take it as my first 3rd level spell.

Third is singing. You should usually only do it during a buff round since during a combat round spells are usually better. Except as a backup strat like when conserving spells.

Then there are the thousand little niche things you can do b/c, y'know, bard. Lots of tiny skill things. Bardic knowledge, tumble to flank with the rogue, stealth, etc. Learn the skill rules well because often even the DM doesn't know them well. Heck ask him about what you want to do ahead of time in case he doesn't know and rules it in an unfavorable way. A wand of invisibility is nice, as is a wand of cure light wounds. Whip proficiency and lack of cha dependency on many spells (if you pick carefully), means str based ranged whip tripping/disarming makes a nice backup strategy. And the reach means no provoking, even if it is a mild featless backup. Which does work as a backup, b/c some things are super easy to trip feat or no feat. This might be combined with a tumble melee flanker and party rogue b/c of the strength (still only a backup to non-cha dependent spells). UMD and a pile of scrolls opens up a huge can of utility spells. They also make ok crafters. Spell pre-reqs are severely limited but the caster level means they otherwise craft as well as a full caster. Good if you don't have any full casters.

That's about it. It basically boils down to do the thousand things that you can do as well as any other class. Don't do the thousand things you do so-so, like melee, except as a backup. That's the trap that gives bards such a bad rep in lower optimization. You think "Jack of all trades, master of none, so I should be ok at everything". Except in D&D not maxing out something means sucking at it. And then you suck at everything. Instead you need to find all the weird niche things that you are great at and do those. You go with a little bit of great things from each class, not lots of ok things from each class.

[Psyren]

In 3.5, generally You can just sing for a round and then attack, casting spells as needed. For the next 5 rounds (the length of most combats), your bardsong will boost your to-hit to just behind that of an unbuffed fighter, which... well, it's not the best place to be, but not the worst either.

In core-only though, I probably wouldn't play a bard at all.

[Strigon]

If you're mostly talking about combat, I'd (In order of highest to lowest priority)


Make sure you have your buffs up all the time.

Look for opportunities where you can make a big difference (The enemy healer is isolated with his back turned to you, your tank is being flanked, several enemies are standing under a rickety chandelier, cutting off an escape route...)

Look for opportunities where you can simply relieve pressure (Throwing caltrops between a charger and your wizard, closing a door to make a chokepoint, etc.)

Do standard attacks.

As a Bard, you won't make a huge difference (not counting buffs) without getting in position for the perfect strike.
Of course, the flip side is, since nobody's counting on you to do anything every turn, as they would a fighter, wizard or cleric, you can afford to take the time to find and set up those perfect strikes.

And, let's be honest; are people going to remember that you took 4 rounds setting up a rockslide to kill a wyvern? No! They're going to remember that you used a rockslide to kill a wyvern!
Which is much more satisfying.

[TheifofZ]

In general, what's been said is about right.
Bards have a LOT of options in combat, but for the most part, bards don't typically have the raw oomph that other party members will.
The wizard will be better at solving problems with magic. The fighter will be better at hitting stuff. The rogue will be better at dps.
But the bard can do all of that and more. Bards are typically the unsung heroes of combat because they fill the support niche so well.

A combat built bard will spend a few rounds slinging around buffs to steroid out their teammates and debuffs that come close to neutering any opposition.
After that, you could do trip build, ranged build, or focus on aid-another options with flanking, feints, and other more subtle options.
Just don't expect to be flashy or to throw around huge amounts of damage, even if you do go the power-attack two hander.

[Strigon]

Bards are typically the unsung heroes...

I don't know what kind of Bards you've been hanging around with... :smalltongue:

[Irk]

It's been about 6 months since I played around with my Core Bard Concept, but I think one of the better option is to stock up on buff spells ( as you would anyway), and then dip into Shadowdancer to get Summon Shadow which would allow you to have a shadow whose ability damage could be affected by Inspire Courage, alongside spells like Haste would be quite potent. However, I'm really not sure if this is correct at all, since Inspire Courage stipulates WEAPON damage only and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?241660-What-happens-Extra-damage-Ability-damage) thread provides all sorts of contradictory responses. So though I think it would be very cool,, and mechanically solid, to be a core-based Shadow Bard, I am unsure as to whether or not it is actually allowed by the rules. Just a different take than the standard buff role that would normally be assigned to a Core Bard.

[ericgrau]

It's been about 6 months since I played around with my Core Bard Concept, but I think one of the better option is to stock up on buff spells ( as you would anyway), and then dip into Shadowdancer to get Summon Shadow which would allow you to have a shadow whose ability damage could be affected by Inspire Courage, alongside spells like Haste would be quite potent. However, I'm really not sure if this is correct at all, since Inspire Courage stipulates WEAPON damage only and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?241660-What-happens-Extra-damage-Ability-damage) thread provides all sorts of contradictory responses. So though I think it would be very cool,, and mechanically solid, to be a core-based Shadow Bard, I am unsure as to whether or not it is actually allowed by the rules. Just a different take than the standard buff role that would normally be assigned to a Core Bard.

A bard shadowdancer would still be nice because of spells like haste (2x str damage), darkness (shadow jump) and UMD wand of [empowered] ray of enfeeblement to stack more strength loss. I would take it all the way to 9 because the shadow gets feats, BAB and hp with more HD. Losing better music and irresistible dance/greater scrying/mass charm monster kind of sucks, but you'll manage with a str drain / scouting focus instead.



A combat built bard will spend a few rounds slinging around buffs to steroid out their teammates and debuffs that come close to neutering any opposition.
After that, you could do trip build, ranged build, or focus on aid-another options with flanking, feints, and other more subtle options.
Just don't expect to be flashy or to throw around huge amounts of damage, even if you do go the power-attack two hander.
Nope. After a few rounds the fight be over and your last buff enhances 0 or 1 attacks. And most buffs suck. I'd throw down one nice buff like haste. Or before level 7 zero buffs unless I got a buff round, because inspire courage isn't strong enough yet. Then glitterdust or grease as a sneak attack trigger or some such from there. A bard gets nice spells almost as soon as a sorcerer, so use them. No need to suffer from theurge syndrome where you have many options but only one sucky one per round. You have good options, just have to watch out for all the sucky landmines. Then round 3 most of the fight is over and that's when you might trip or hurt something. And I wouldn't build around the round 3 stuff too heavily. For that matter power attack is useless on medium BAB in core. It will lower your damage per round because you don't have the attack bonus to support it and you won't hit . Just whip trip (so that you don't provoke) anything that's easy to trip (so that you don't need feats) or tumble flank or shoot or glitterdust again or etc.

Between combat you have a lot more versatility than others and without the combat time constraints limiting you to one action, so bards are also great there. Skill and scroll away.

Also bardic music lasts as long as the bard sings plus 5 rounds. So conceivably you could be singing long before the fight begins with only 1 usage of inspire courage, then do something else round 1. Though that's bad for stealth and if you try to do it for more than several minutes the DM might say "No, your voice gives out".



And, let's be honest; are people going to remember that you took 4 rounds setting up a rockslide to kill a wyvern? No! They're going to remember that you used a rockslide to kill a wyvern!
Which is much more satisfying.
"So in round one and two the Wyvern nearly ripped Dave apart while you said 'Leave this guy to me.' Meanwhile we killed most of the other foes. Then rounds 3 and 4 we killed the Wyvern and saved Dave from nearly dying. But yeah I guess that would have been a cool rockslide."