[3.5] Kobold Cleric of the Sun, Support set up

[SodaDarwin]

Here's what I get:

3rd level
2700 gold
No flaws or traits
32 point buy

My idea is to go Cloistered Cleric, go supporty magicy stuff.
I'd like to play as a Kobold, though their horrible stats might be a problem. Dragonwraught, leading to the one that gives wings, would be a little help I guess. If DM allows, I'll grab Leadership and start a Sun Cult, not sure what kind of ally I should try and get if that happens. Probably a Paladin, for thematic goodies.
I obviously need a high Wisdom, and I'd like a good Charisma and Int. Unfortunately, that leaves my Physical stats suffering... and if I try Kobold that makes the problem worse.
Domains: Sun, Healing, Knowledge (due to Cloistered Cleric)
Stats before any racial adjustment, initially bought like this because Kobold but could be modified for other races.
STR: 12
DEX: 8
CON: 12
INT: 14
WIS: 16
CHA: 14

General plan
The three pillars of this are: 1) Praise the sun. 2) Help allies. 3) KILL IT WITH FIRE.
Go Cloistered Cleric until I can get Radiant Servant of Pelor, continue from there for better healing and SUN.


Of course, lots of problems with this. It's not at all trying to be an optimized build, but it is trying to do its job well: Support allies and/or kill it with fire. Praise the Sun. Get others to praise the Sun.
As I'm here, I'm asking: I need this workable, preferably while staying a Kobold. Advice?

[LordOfCain]

Is this based on the kobold wizard of the sun from Temple of the Dragonslayer? If so a Hand of the Mage would be appropriate. I would aim to go into Justicar of Taiia from Deities and Demigods. That would be good for an extreme cultist.

[SodaDarwin]

Ah, no, it's not based on that. It's based on a mixture of Solaire of Astora and the amusement of a Kobold worshipping the sun. The thing that blinds it. Harhar.
Kind of interesting idea, though.

[LordOfCain]

Oh, there is a character in Temple of the Dragonslayer exactly like that. There is a temple for all THREE of the moons but not one for the sun and he believes that he is a cleric of the sun but it is just his rogue skills/a ring form of the Hand of the Mage that can be used 3/day.

[Nifft]

32 point buy can get you:

Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 11
Wis 15
Cha 11

Then, add Dragonwrought cheese (i.e. Venerable age bonuses) and you'd end up with:

Str 10 (14 -4 racial)
Dex 16 (12 +2 racial)
Con 12 (14 -2 racial)
Int 14 (11 +3 venerable)
Wis 18 (15 +3 venerable)
Cha 14 (11 +3 venerable)

If you don't mind dropping your Strength by -4 (to 6), you could have Int 16 and Cha 16, both of which are probably more useful than Strength.


What Domains would you take?

How would you deal with daylight blindness while praising the sun?

[SodaDarwin]

THINGS!

I'm really liking this idea.
My domains would be Sun, Healing, and Knowledge due to Cloistered Cleric. Going Radiant Servant of Pelor means I could get yet another domain, which would probably be Strength.
Dealing with Daylight Blindness would probably be easy enough, buy sunglasses? They should be affordable at the starting level we have (3rd).

[Nifft]

In terms of Domain cheese, note that Ehlonna also grants the Sun domain.

For your third, she grants Celerity (Expeditious Retreat, Haste, Tree Stride, Improved Blink, Time Stop), and as your 4th high-level Domain you could grab Animal (Commune with Nature, Animal Shapes, Shapechange).

- - -

If you go with Pelor, then I'd pick Glory before Strength, and probably not pick Healing at all... maybe start with Sun, Nobility and Knowledge, and then pick up Glory later.

[SodaDarwin]

Definitely an idea. DM might not allow Glory, not sure on that yet.
I was planning to go Healing so I could get my heal power up to 11. Healing domain for +1 Caster Level per healing spell. Radiant Servant of Pelor for free Empower to my heals, leading to free Maximize, and then finally free both.
Getting that on /every/ healing spell. And still casting it normally.
Cast Cure Critical Wounds, at level 16 (6 Cleric/10 Radiant Servant of Pelor): 4d8+1 per caster level becomes a solid 48+CL, which would be 17 due to the things of the class and PrC. Is a guaranteed 65, before any feats/etc a good amount to heal for at that point?
Another example: Heal. 150 hitpoints max at level 15. Assuming that limit only applies to level, 225 HP from one spell! At no extra cost! Is this good? Please tell me that's great. Hopefully, can pull it off at level 14 due to Healing Domain.

I can definitely see the appeal of going with Elhonna though. Not quite as pure SUN, but definitely has more versatility.

[Nifft]

Empower only affects variable effects, not fixed numbers like what Heal does.

Maximize has the same constraint.

I would not take the Healing Domain, not even on a character who was planning to spend most of her spell-slots on healing.

Also: for most levels, the Vigor line of spells are more cost-effective than the Cure line of spells. The only good thing about the Cure line is that you can spontaneously convert other spells into Cure spells. They're a consolation prize, not your main plan.

Your best effects (Vigor & Heal) won't benefit from Empower or Maximize... but (Lesser) Vigor will benefit from Extend.

[SodaDarwin]

Mhm. That sucks.
Welp, scratch that plan. No wonder Clerics aren't exactly healbots (4e not counting).
If I still plan to go support oriented, however, with some "KILL IT WITH FIRE", I should either go Ehlonna and get fun versatility or Pelor and get more stuff focused around buffing?
Turns out one of the players is going to be a buff/debuff bard, and we'd like to not tread on each other's shoes too much.

[GilesTheCleric]

If you do want to do some in-combat healing, summoning a Unicorn with SMIV is your best bet besides Heal. Do note also that the Radiant Servant only Maximizes and Empowers domain spells. If you want bigger heals all the time, consider Mastery of Day and Night (PGtE 125). One of the Sudden X MMs from CAr would be good, too -- those don't increase the spell level. Metamagic Rods have the same effect. Regardless, healing in combat is generally not the best use of your actions.

Which deity you choose only affects your roleplay, Weapon of the Deity, Footsteps of the Deity, domains available (there's ways around that), and Initiate feats. None of the sun deities have very useful initiate feats, though if you want "Immolate the Wicked" on your spell list just because the name is so cool, then that's Initiate of Pelor (Drag342 52).

My recommendation for a good PrC is Sunmaster (LEoF 25). The entry requirements are a bit steep, but the entire class is full of cool abilities, including the 10th level one to turn yourself into a miniature sun with a fire bolt attack. The RP is a little bit complicated (you have to start as a cleric of Lathander, then convert to Amaunator), but it's a great addition to a campaign if the GM needs more plot.


Lathander, FR (Good, Nobility, Protection, Renewal, Strength, Sun)
Tamara, any setting, Dragon deity (Dragon, Good, Healing, Strength, Sun, Family)
Dol Arrah, Eb (Good, Law, Sun, War) Dol Arrah, "The Silver Flame" (Glory, Good, Law, Sun, War)
Spirit of Syrkarn, Eb (Animal, Healing, Plant, Sun, Travel)
Annam, any setting, Giant deity (Knowledge, Magic, Plant, Sun)
Ehlonna, any setting (Animal, Celerity, Good, Plant, Sun)
Hiatea, any setting, Giant deity (Animal, Good, Plant, Sun)
Illanis, any setting, Giant deity (Good, Healing, Strength, Sun)
Pelor, any setting (Glory, Good, Healing, Nobility, Strength, Sun)
Skerrit, any setting, monstrous clerics (Animal, Healing, Plant, Sun)
The Wild, any setting (Plant, Sun)
Vhara, any setting (Good, Sun)
Olympic Pantheon, any setting (Air, Animal, Artifice, Chaos, Charm, Community, Creation, Death, Destruction, Earth, Evil, Fire, Good, Healing, Knowledge, Law, Luck, Madness, Magic, Nobility, Plant, Protection, Strength, Sun, Travel, Trickery, War, Water, Weather)

Apollo, any setting (Good, Healing, Knowledge, Magic, Sun)
Artemis, any setting (Animal, Good, Plant, Sun)
Pharonic Pantheon, any setting(Air, Artifice, Chaos, Community, Creation, Destruction, Earth, Glory, Good, Healing, Knowledge, Law, Luck, Magic, Nobility, Plant, Protection, Repose, Rune, Strength, Sun, Travel, Trickery, War, Water)

Osirian Triad, any setting, good (Air, Earth, Law, Glory, Good, Law, Magic, Nobility, Plant, Protection, Repose, Sun, War, Water)
Re-Horakhty, any setting (Glory, Good, Law, Nobility, Sun, War)
Asgardian Pantheon, any setting (Animal, Chaos, Charm, Community, Death, Destruction, Good, Earth, Evil, Fire, Healing, Knowledge, Law, Luck, Magic, Plant, Protection, Strength, Sun, Travel, Trickery, War, Water, Weather)

Frey, any setting, pre-ragnarok (Air, Good, Plant, Sun)
Odur, any setting, pre-ragnarok (Chaos, Fire, Sun)
Taiia (Creator Aspect), any setting (Air, Chaos, Earth, Good, Healing, Knowledge, Law, Luck, Magic, Protection, Sun, Travel)
Elishar, any setting (Good, Healing, Knowledge, Luck, Protection, Sun)
Pholtus, Gh (Good, Inquisition, Knowledge, Law, Sun)

Since all clerics get access to all spells, finding a way to differentiate you from everyone else might be best achieved through MM. Things like Searing Spell (CAr), Flash Casting (DC 99), Radiant Spell (Drag314), and Mastery of Ice and Fire (PGtE 126) could do that. There's also the Sun Domain Improved Power (Drag342 24).

If you're looking for good spells to cast, don't forget about options other than Flame Strike: Lucent Lance (SC), Blistering Radiance (SC), Lava Missile (SK), Lava Splash (SK), Parboil (Ss), Stonefire (ShS), Crown of Brilliance (BoED), Light of Lunia (SC), Light of Mercuria (SC), Light of Venya (SC), Sun Bolt (ShS), Sun Sceptre (LEoF), and one of my personal favourites: Wall of Magma (Ss). With Energy Substitution (CAr), you can make any of your [element] spells into [fire] spells.



I should either go Ehlonna and get fun versatility or Pelor and get more stuff focused around buffing?
Turns out one of the players is going to be a buff/debuff bard, and we'd like to not tread on each other's shoes too much.

You'll have the same buffing ability regardless of which deity you pick; don't worry about stepping on the Bard's toes. Most of the bard's buffs are morale bonuses, while clerics grant mostly deflection, enhancement, resistance, and sacred/profane bonuses.

[Nifft]

You'll have the same buffing ability regardless of which deity you pick; don't worry about stepping on the Bard's toes. Most of the bard's buffs are morale bonuses, while clerics grant mostly deflection, enhancement, resistance, and sacred/profane bonuses. Just want to 2nd this: don't worry too much about your spells duplicating or overlapping Bardic buff effects.

If you do overlap or otherwise not stack, you can just pick different spells tomorrow.

Cleric is a great class because you can learn by playing.

The main things you want to be careful about are things that you can't just change tomorrow:
- Domains
- Feats
- Skills
- Ability Scores

But no matter what Domains and Feats you pick, you get all your spells, and spells are your best feature by a mile. Cleric is great because you can't screw up your best feature by accident.

- - -

Thinking about a Good Kobold Cleric, now I kinda want to see a Cleric of Bahamut. Domains would be Magic, Storm, and Knowledge. He'd see every overcast sky as a blessing from the his patron, the Platinum Dragon, King of Storms.

"No sunlight. Very auspicious. Let's go do some good."

[SodaDarwin]

Woah things! Okay. Not sure how to tackle this.
That PrC seems really awkward to get, especially if you worship the sun. That's the main thing I can say anything about. The rest is even more online-book delving... :smalleek:

...also I love that kobold idea.

[GilesTheCleric]

What are your book constraints? The entirety of dnd is "book delving" in a sense, but here it's easy because I've already given you the books and in most cases the page number.

How is it awkward to get if you worship the sun? It's easiest to get when you worship the sun. The only tricky aspects are finding the holy symbol, and making sure you have the feat and skill requirements.

[SodaDarwin]

DM apparently wants to focus on core books, but they've approved things from outside of core. I personally have PHB, MM, DMG, and can easily get access to the more easily findable books like Complete Divine.

Grabbing the feat necessary for it would lock me out of Dragonwraught, if it is allowed, by design. After all, both of them can only be taken at level 1 from what it looks like. Feat specifically says Cleric Level 1st.

[GilesTheCleric]

Servant of the Fallen can be taken any time after you have fulfilled the requirements (ie 1 level of cleric); only regional feats specify that they must be taken at first level (and that you may only ever take one regional feat). The authors aren't as precise in their language as they ought to be for many things -- whenever you're looking at a pre-req, if it has specific numbers then those are always minimums.

In terms of core, your options are limited. To expand your repertoire, asking for access to just Spell Compendium and Complete Arcane/Divine/Champion will give you the most additional options (CAr for metamagic, CD for Divine Metamagic and prestige classes, and CC for Devotion feats and alternate class features). If you are limited to core, then you can still have a flavourful character: how spells look is entirely up to the player, so you can re-fluff your spells to look like sunbeams or fire shooting from your eyes or anything else you please.

[SodaDarwin]

Mhm. Yeah, poor wording was definitely a thing there.
Just took a ten second glance at Complete Champion and it already looks pretty nice. I'll definitely try to see if I can use stuff from the Complete books and Spell Compendium.

[GilesTheCleric]

That's a good eye; Complete Champion is probably the best of the completes in terms of overall usefulness. If you're able to get CC+CD, then don't forget about the Contemplative PrC from DMG; the extra domain is good fodder to trade out for a devotion feat if your chosen deity doesn't have more than one or two domains you like. There's also options in CD (Radiant Servant [of Pelor]) and CC for having your GM help fit deity-specific PrCs to different deities, which might please your GM if they're worried about you picking things that they aren't familiar with.

[Nifft]

It should be noted that Dragonwrought is from Races of the Dragon. If you can't get that approved, then Kobold becomes a much worse choice.

Also, note that your DM would have to specially approve your character starting at venerable age. This is rather cheesy, and your DM is well within his or her rights to say "no".

- - - Assuming you get Dragonwrought and venerable - - -

1 - Even without any extra books, Cloistered Cleric is great.

2 - Because your class is great, more spells should be your priority. If you have to choose just one more book, take Spell Compendium before any of the Complete books.

3 - Divine Metamagic + Persistent Spell is probably the strongest feat combo for a Cleric; that's from Complete Divine + Complete Arcane, respectively. Some of the Devotion feats are also strong; they're from Complete Champion.

4 - If Persistent Spell is too cheesy for your DM (and it is pretty cheesy), then ask about Divine Metamagic (Quicken).

[SodaDarwin]

Thanks.
And yeah, my whole idea here is hinging on being not useless via exceptional mental stats, so I really hope I can get Dragonwraught. If not... I should probably pick an entirely different race. But I don't know what. I'd like a race that's likely to be accepted, and racial hit dice and LA really do just... suck.
Are there any 'standardish but exotic' races with a + mental stat?

Looking in Complete Champion, I notice there's a cleric class mod (presumably works with Cloistered) that lets me trade one spell slot (4th level) and get a pool of healing equal to 5x(1+level). Very slightly better mathematically than Lay on Hands... but... that's a fourth level slot for that. Probably not worth as is. Hell, Touch of Healing is arguably better than it and that blows a friggen feat!
Getting ranks in relationship with the Shining Light of Pelor (or equivalent church based off that) would not just be neat, but it does come with some small benefits here and there if DM allows.
Devotion feats in general don't look too great...
How are the spells in it? Don't have the time just yet to sift through them.

[Agahnim]

Using dragonwrought to get a free +3 to all mental stats is both cheesy and insanely overpowered, so your DM will probably not allow it.
But what if you start at middle age ("only" +1 to mental stats) ? Your DM might allow it, since it would compensate the low base stats of the kobold. And over his career, your character might get to old or even venerable age, netting him more stat bonuses at later levels - when they're less significant.

[Nifft]

Using dragonwrought to get a free +3 to all mental stats is both cheesy and insanely overpowered, so your DM will probably not allow it. It's definitely strong, but the -2 Con is not trivial. (Also the -4 Strength hurts at low levels, but that does become trivial at high levels.)

Most of the time I'd rather be a Human.

[GilesTheCleric]

Thanks.
And yeah, my whole idea here is hinging on being not useless via exceptional mental stats, so I really hope I can get Dragonwraught. If not... I should probably pick an entirely different race. But I don't know what. I'd like a race that's likely to be accepted, and racial hit dice and LA really do just... suck.
Are there any 'standardish but exotic' races with a + mental stat?

Looking in Complete Champion, I notice there's a cleric class mod (presumably works with Cloistered) that lets me trade one spell slot (4th level) and get a pool of healing equal to 5x(1+level). Very slightly better mathematically than Lay on Hands... but... that's a fourth level slot for that. Probably not worth as is. Hell, Touch of Healing is arguably better than it and that blows a friggen feat!
Getting ranks in relationship with the Shining Light of Pelor (or equivalent church based off that) would not just be neat, but it does come with some small benefits here and there if DM allows.
Devotion feats in general don't look too great...
How are the spells in it? Don't have the time just yet to sift through them.

The standard exoticish race for clerics is Lesser Aasimar (PGtF 191+MM1 209); that nets you +2 cha and +2 wis for +0 LA. For a slew of options, check out the handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0).

The spell slot is more valuable than the pool of healing, you're right.

The benefit to devotion feats is that they scale with character level, not cleric level, so they'll continue to improve even if you prestige out. The other benefit is that you can get them for free -- you can trade away a domain in order to get the feat, which is sometimes a good trade. Check out Air, Animal, Knowledge, Plant, Travel, and Trickery. Those are all very good feats; others are useful depending on the build (ie I'm using the destruction devotion feat on a debuffing build; earth is good for charging builds; water is good for sneak attack, etc).

There are 43 cleric spells in CC; Footsteps of the Divine, Lore of the Gods, Substitute Domain, and Surge of Fortune are the best.
There are 45 cleric spells in CD; Greater Bestow Curse, Death Pact, Divine Agility, Omen of Peril, Recitation, Renewal Pact, Mass/Resurgence, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (lvl 5 in SC), Mass Spell Resistance (SC version is better), Lesser/Mass Vigor, Stalwart Pact, and Zealot Pact are the best.

Spell Compendium includes all spells from the Completes, I believe. It also has updated versions of many of them.

[nedz]

You can use the Sun domain to power the reserve feat Fiery Burst ( Complete Mage p43) — available at level 3.
This should allow you to burn things with Fire rather than smashing things and so you don't have to bother with melle options — which should be useful for a Kobold.

[SodaDarwin]

Looking at those feats that require you to have a certain level of spell ready to cast...
Wow, that's just silly. You just need a spell ready to use the effect, and it doesn't even cost anything but time! Jebleezus, is that to encourage careful spell use?

[nedz]

Looking at those feats that require you to have a certain level of spell ready to cast...
Wow, that's just silly. You just need a spell ready to use the effect, and it doesn't even cost anything but time! Jebleezus, is that to encourage careful spell use?

They cost actions and have opportunity cost.

Whether they are useful depends upon the game. If you are running 15 minute adventuring days then the reserve feats are quite poor since spells will always be more effective and you only have so many combat rounds in a day so you will never run out of spells. On the other hand, if spell resources are more limited, such that you have more combat rounds in a day than spells, then they are useful.