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TomTheRat
2007-05-15, 01:31 PM
Ok, what the hell.

Bluff, I'm good at lying, +2 to Diplomacy.
Jump, I can spring around easily, +2 Tumble checks.

Spot... I'm good at seeing things... no +2 to Search.
Search... I'm good at finding things... no +2 to Spot.

How does this make sense?

Yechezkiel
2007-05-15, 01:41 PM
You're not thinking of Search as an Intelligence related skill and Spot as a Wisdom based one.

TomTheRat
2007-05-15, 01:55 PM
Does that somehow imply that aptitude in one wouldn't slightly improve success with the other?

Handle Animal (cha) + Ride (dex)
Search (int) + Survival (wis)

Disparate related abilities don't negate the synergy.

Jasdoif
2007-05-15, 01:59 PM
A Search check is methodical/thorough examination, which involves far more then just catching general details in a quick glance, which is what a Spot check represents. The two scopes are so disparate that it doesn't make since for them to give synergy to each other.


Does that somehow imply that aptitude in one wouldn't slightly improve success with the other?A 10% better chance in an average case isn't exactly slight.

TomTheRat
2007-05-15, 02:00 PM
A 10% better chance in an average case isn't exactly slight.

Its not really 10%.

Yechezkiel
2007-05-15, 02:01 PM
I'm just referring to the opening lines of Search:

"You can find secret doors, simple traps, hidden compartments, and other details not readily apparent. The Spot skill lets you notice something, such as a hiding rogue. The Search skill lets a character discern some small detail or irregularity through active effort." -PhB, pg.81

TomTheRat
2007-05-15, 02:01 PM
A Search check is methodical/thorough examination, which involves far more then just catching general details in a quick glance, which is what a Spot check represents. The two scopes are so disparate that it doesn't make since for them to give synergy to each other.

And you're saying that being great at catching details won't help a methodical search?

Fax Celestis
2007-05-15, 02:03 PM
The Search skill isn't purely visual, while Spot is. That's why.

Jasdoif
2007-05-15, 02:04 PM
Its not really 10%.Yes it is. +2 on a d20 check gives you a 10% better chance of meeting a particular DC, unless the DC is much higher or lower then an average roll with your modifier.

TomTheRat
2007-05-15, 02:08 PM
The Search skill isn't purely visual, while Spot is. That's why.

Just like how Tumbling isn't all about Jumping but it sure does help. Or how Climbing isn't all about Rope Use, or how Diplomacy isn't all about Bluffing.

I guess I can see Search not helping Spot. Given as there is no methodical nature to Spot, but the other way around? Come on.

Yechezkiel
2007-05-15, 02:14 PM
An argument can be made for dozens of synergies, but it gets pretty ridiculous pretty fast.

What you're asking for is probably best left to one of the situational bonuses/synergies like Knowledge(Nature)'s to Survival checks, just bribe ask your DM.

I'm just glad they printed so many more skill synergies in 3.5.

TomTheRat
2007-05-15, 02:18 PM
This one just seems especially glaring to me.

NullAshton
2007-05-15, 02:21 PM
Spot is seeing something that's obscured. Spotting a royal pin on the floor of a cathedral, for example. Search, rather, is trying to figure out where something is hidden. Stuff that you have to search for is impossible to discover with spot. It would be like trying to find a key that fell behind a table, it would be impossible to spot it without xray vision or actually thinking to look behind the table.

Search is intelligence based because it's based on knowing where something would be hidden, which places are good to hide stuff. Spot is wisdom based because it relies on perception. Thus no synergy.

TomTheRat
2007-05-15, 02:26 PM
Spot is seeing something that's obscured. Spotting a royal pin on the floor of a cathedral, for example. Search, rather, is trying to figure out where something is hidden. Stuff that you have to search for is impossible to discover with spot. It would be like trying to find a key that fell behind a table, it would be impossible to spot it without xray vision or actually thinking to look behind the table.

You're telling me that at no time during a search of a room does spotting something obscure come into play. At no time, ever, while searching. Like... I look behind that desk and maybe I notice the key maybe I don't.


Search is intelligence based because it's based on knowing where something would be hidden, which places are good to hide stuff. Spot is wisdom based because it relies on perception. Thus no synergy.

Right, and like I said above, Tumble is Dex, and Jump is Str, but they synergize. As does Cha/Wis. The ability means nothing.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-15, 02:35 PM
Spot is seeing something that's obscured. Spotting a royal pin on the floor of a cathedral, for example.

Chrono Trigger FTW.

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-05-15, 03:18 PM
Yes it is. +2 on a d20 check gives you a 10% better chance of meeting a particular DC, unless the DC is much higher or lower then an average roll with your modifier.

In a way you are right and in a way you aren't, it's true that if you'd need to roll a 2 to succeed you have 10% to do so and if you need a 4 then you have 20%, (20%-10%=10%) so you get 10% more, sound logical. However the chance to succeed has actually gotten twice as big! (20%/10%=2) giving you 100% more chance to succeed the roll. note that the factor depends on what you needed to succeed in the first place.
and offcource is has no effect at all if you'd either succeed on a 1 even without the +2 bonus or still have no chance on success even with the +2 bonus.

edit: I need to think more before posting

Inyssius Tor
2007-05-15, 03:35 PM
To be more precise: 10 is an "average" DC. +2 would be +20%.
20 is a "challenging" DC. +2 would be +10%.

As for the original topic, I entirely agree with the OP. When you're searching for something, you do need to actually see the desired item after you've figured out where it might be. Conversely, your skills at spotting would be increased if you knew where the motion might occur (say you're looking for assassins at a parade; being skilled at methodical searching would be handy there, even though it's clearly a Spot check).

rollfrenzy
2007-05-15, 03:40 PM
The reason for no synergy is probably purely mechanical. I read somewhere ( wizards FAQ?) that spot, search, and listen are used to help maintain class balance (HAH!!). So maybe they see it as potentially balance breaking? But yeah I would rule in my games that a synergy make sense.

Jasdoif
2007-05-15, 03:45 PM
To be more precise: 10 is an "average" DC. +2 would be +20%.
20 is a "challenging" DC. +2 would be +10%....what are you talking about?

+2 on a roll would be +20% if you were rolling between 1 and 10 to meet that DC 10, yes; but that's not what DC means.

Tormsskull
2007-05-16, 11:43 AM
I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand, but seeing some the responses, it seems that it is.

On a 20-sided die, you have a generally accepted 5% chance of rolling any of the numbers, 1-20. This is generally accepted because we are assuming a normal die that has been made correctly, has not been altered, etc.

Therefore, if you have a 50% base chance of succeeding on a roll (you need to roll an 11-20) and then you are able to apply a bonus of +2, you would now have a 60% chance of succeeding (you need to roll a 9-20).

In other words, on a 20-sided die, each bonus of +1 increases your chances of succeeding by 5%. The only time this is not true is when you need to roll a 20 in order to succeed due to the "automatic success if a 20 is rolled" clause.

Indon
2007-05-16, 12:19 PM
Just like how Tumbling isn't all about Jumping but it sure does help. Or how Climbing isn't all about Rope Use, or how Diplomacy isn't all about Bluffing.

I guess I can see Search not helping Spot. Given as there is no methodical nature to Spot, but the other way around? Come on.

What penalty does being blind give to Search checks?

TomTheRat
2007-05-16, 12:37 PM
What penalty does being blind give to Search checks?

I'm not sure it's addressed, but if I were STing I'd probably give a -20. One of the books has the Tactile Trapsmith feat that lets you Search and Disarm in the dark, and lets you use Dex instead of Int as the associated ability. That seems to indicate that sight is a significant part of a Search.

Jasdoif
2007-05-16, 12:39 PM
What penalty does being blind give to Search checks?-4. Here, have the whole entry:

Blinded

The character cannot see. He takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-05-16, 01:22 PM
The blindness penalty shouldn't be so big. Maybe it should make it take twice as long though.

Suzaku
2007-05-16, 01:48 PM
Ok, what the hell.

Bluff, I'm good at lying, +2 to Diplomacy.
Jump, I can spring around easily, +2 Tumble checks.

Spot... I'm good at seeing things... no +2 to Search.
Search... I'm good at finding things... no +2 to Spot.

How does this make sense?

Bluff also determines how well you control your body language. For example going into interview slouched or standing up right and projecting a self confidence in yourself could mean the difference between you getting the job or not.

Jayabalard
2007-05-16, 01:53 PM
The only time this is not true is when you need to roll a 20 in order to succeed due to the "automatic success if a 20 is rolled" clause.That's a pretty good write up, and the only thing that I think you are missing is that the same goes for the opposite end, when you can only fail on a 1 due to a "automatic failure if a 1 is rolled" clause.

Indon
2007-05-16, 02:38 PM
I'm not sure it's addressed, but if I were STing I'd probably give a -20. One of the books has the Tactile Trapsmith feat that lets you Search and Disarm in the dark, and lets you use Dex instead of Int as the associated ability. That seems to indicate that sight is a significant part of a Search.

My point is, Searching is not particularly visual; when you are blind, you automatically fail all spot checks, but take a small penalty to search. So, they really are distinct skillsets.

Search, you see, isn't about spotting details so much as noticing them. A spot check wouldn't notice anything odd about a dungeon wall which has mortar with cracks in it. But a search check would tell you that there is cold air coming out of some of the cracks, meaning there is a secret passage behind the wall.

greenknight
2007-05-16, 03:30 PM
That's a pretty good write up, and the only thing that I think you are missing is that the same goes for the opposite end, when you can only fail on a 1 due to a "automatic failure if a 1 is rolled" clause.

Except that with skills (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#skillChecks), that rule doesn't apply. A 1 can succeed, and a 20 can fail.

greenknight
2007-05-16, 03:38 PM
My point is, Searching is not particularly visual; when you are blind, you automatically fail all spot checks, but take a small penalty to search. So, they really are distinct skillsets.

That is correct, but no one is suggesting Spot and Search be merged into one skill. The fact that not being able to see gives a penalty to Search does indicate that Spot should have a synergy with Search though.


Search, you see, isn't about spotting details so much as noticing them.

Or as Sherlock Holmes would say, you see but you do not observe. But what if you don't see in the first place? The Blindness entry indicates you take a -4 penalty to Search, which represents a 20% reduction (on the d20 roll) of your chance to find anything. If there was a +2 Synergy from Spot, you'd lose that too, since that doesn't work at all.


A spot check wouldn't notice anything odd about a dungeon wall which has mortar with cracks in it. But a search check would tell you that there is cold air coming out of some of the cracks, meaning there is a secret passage behind the wall.

This is a good example of why Spot should give a synergy bonus to Search. Maybe you wouldn't notice anything odd about a wall with cracks in it. But without Spot, maybe you wouldn't notice those cracks at all.

Indon
2007-05-16, 03:55 PM
This is a good example of why Spot should give a synergy bonus to Search. Maybe you wouldn't notice anything odd about a wall with cracks in it. But without Spot, maybe you wouldn't notice those cracks at all.

My point was that you don't 'spot' something perfectly normal like cracked mortar; you search and find something unusual regarding it.

You're probably penalized to Search when you're blind because it's harder to tell you're searching a wall in the first place, but that kind of 'synergy' requires no check.

Blind PC: "I search the object."
DM: "It's shaped like a column, and has a warm, bumpy surface."
Non-blind PC: "Dude, stop humping that elephants' leg and let's go."

The White Knight
2007-05-16, 04:15 PM
Were I DMing, and a player requested a synergy between Spot and Search, I would probably allow them to have the +2 on Search from 5 or more ranks in Spot, but most definitely not the other way around. I don't see anything wrong with the school of thought that being more perceptive could improve your ability to find things. I may put a situational disclaimer on the bonus, requiring it to apply only to things that can be visually sought out - if you're fumbling around blind (or feeling an invisible surface, or something similar), then that's an obvious no-go.

TomTheRat
2007-05-16, 07:26 PM
That's a pretty good write up, and the only thing that I think you are missing is that the same goes for the opposite end, when you can only fail on a 1 due to a "automatic failure if a 1 is rolled" clause.


Unlike with attack rolls and saving throws, a natural roll of 20 on the d20 is not an automatic success, and a natural roll of 1 is not an automatic failure.


Forgive me if I'm mistaken but I believe that that doesn't happen for skill checks. I think you can waive rolling if you automatically beat the DC.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-16, 07:32 PM
Forgive me if I'm mistaken but I believe that that doesn't happen for skill checks. I think you can waive rolling if you automatically beat the DC.

If your ranks beat the DC, you do not need to roll. However, in any other instance, you do need to roll, and a natural 1 isn't a failure, and a natural 20 isn't a success.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-05-18, 03:22 AM
That is correct, but no one is suggesting Spot and Search be merged into one skill.Ooh! Ooh! Pick me! Pick me!

Spot and Search being separate doesn't make any sense to begin with. Or do we need both Hear and Listen to be separate skills? Perhaps Climb and Hold On? Appraise and Notice Value? Indon's example is particularly amusing, because he calls Search out as being able to notice things, despite the fact that this is based off of perception (Wisdom), not learning or reason (Intelligence).

What's particularly mind-blowing about the two being separate is the fact that the sensible way of doing it is already built into the game. In the section detailing Spot, it gives a -5 penalty to the check for "Spotter distracted." Using Indon's example with the leaky walls, someone with good eyes might see cracked mortar, but he's likely just glancing about, sizing up the area. As soon as the player says "I check out the mortar," that penalty goes away, and maybe he notices the cool air slipping through the cracks.

And yet there's an extra skill anyway.

Funkyodor
2007-05-18, 06:50 AM
No, Hear and Language are two separate skills. One involves listening, the other involves interpereting heard sounds as speech. Both can involve the ears, but they both accomplish different results. Search is effectiveness at ransacking someones house to find drugs, spot is noticing the bong poking out from behind the couch. If you don't notice the bong, you ransack the house and bam, drug bust. Search involves knowing where to look for information, not just how effective you are at catching a detail out of the corner of your eye.