Cultural Ramifications for Rebuking in Undead Society?

[Remedy]

So, I was making a ghoul society in a setting, and at first I didn't think too much about Turn Undead. Because, you know, a mortal faced with a strong caster could just as well have to worry about a power that can terrify them into running or damage them potentially to the point of death, it's just a different sort of effect than the one the undead have to worry about; the societal effects of each shouldn't be that different. But then I reread the strip of OOTS where Redcloak walks in on Tsukiko rummaging through his crap and he just casually Rebukes her wight servants into brutally murdering her. And that's... Terrifying. All Evil and some portion of Neutral Clerics with twice as many hitdice as a ghoul or strongest of a group of ghouls can Dominate them with no Save or account for the ghouls' emotions on the matter. (I mean, even Dominate Person/Monster gives extra saves with a bonus if they're commanded to do something against their nature...)

I mean, I guess from a logical perspective it's just as scary that a Good or positive-aligned Neutral Cleric of that strength can no-Save end your existence, but somehow that doesn't feel so different from a lot of the other major sources of damage around in a given setting. (EDIT: Come to think of it, it's also less scary because Good and positive-Neutral Clerics wouldn't generally be the type to abuse this power without ample cause.) Negative-aligned Clerics using Rebuke Undead to Command feels like it would have much deeper cultural impact, especially since the Clerics of the ghouls' own gods would almost all channel negative energy.

What do you guys think? Am I overblowing this, or is this a real and indeed horrifying consequence of taking undead up to society scale when they weren't originally designed for that?

[LordOfCain]

This would be punishable by death in an undead society and good aligned clerics would likely be hunted like rabid boars because of this . It would be very horrible for your free will to just be taken away from you and any undead society would recognize it as a great threat

[Solaris]

I think you're overblowing rebuking; it's a danger, sure, but so is any number of other magical effects in undead and other societies. It may carry a stiff penalty, depending on the general tenor of the society, but no more so than charm person or the various dominate spells would in a living society. I imagine that undead would tolerate evil clerics due to their ability to channel negative energy; being immortal and destroyed at 0 hit points, coupled with their fragile HP, would make them keen on keeping around people who can patch them up.

Turning, on the other hand, would be part of the reason an undead society would frown upon clerics of good deities. It's not nice to pop the neighbors like a steamroller going over bubble-wrap.

[Remedy]

I think you're overblowing rebuking; it's a danger, sure, but so is any number of other magical effects in undead and other societies. It may carry a stiff penalty, depending on the general tenor of the society, but no more so than charm person or the various dominate spells would in a living society. I imagine that undead would tolerate evil clerics due to their ability to channel negative energy; being immortal and destroyed at 0 hit points, coupled with their fragile HP, would make them keen on keeping around people who can patch them up.

Turning, on the other hand, would be part of the reason an undead society would frown upon clerics of good deities. It's not nice to pop the neighbors like a steamroller going over bubble-wrap.
I guess the part that gets me most is just how powerful it is mechanics-wise and in terms of how totally revoked their free will is. Both Charm Person and Dominate Person give Saves and precautions against the person being forced to do things against their nature, even if a very powerful caster can muscle their way past those limitations. A Cleric as low as 4th level with a +1 Charisma mod actually can't fail to gain complete and utter control over three ghouls, and that control doesn't give the ghoul an extra chance to resist against such things as committing suicide or devouring any loved ones they may have.

[Sredni Vashtar]

I would imagine mind control of any kind would as severe an offense as one can commit in just about any society.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Undead societies would most likely suffuse their cities with desecrate and other effects that confer turn resistance or penalize turning and rebuking. Each desecrate needs an altar for maximum efficiency, so there would be one every 40' or so, for a -6 penalty on turning checks. It's possible to cast unhallow as well, but unhallow actually grants a +4 bonus to rebuking undead, and you don't want that. A permanent item of ghoul light, a first-level spell that provides +1 turn resistance to undead within 30', is a good idea - make it a fell energy ghoul light, for a second-level spell that grants +3 turn resistance. Finally, most intelligent undead have turn resistance; ghouls, awakened undead and necropolitans have +2, liches and vampires have +4. Between these, you should have 1 HD undead with +5 turn resistance, and -6 to any turning check in the area. It's not perfect, but it's pretty good.


There is a variant rule in Libris Mortis, too, regarding concentrations of undead:


Undead density is expressed in terms of the total Hit Dice of undead in a 100-foot-radius sphere (regardless of intervening walls or other barriers). If the total Hit Dice of undead in this area rises to 1,000 or higher, the saturation of negative energy effectively grants all undead in the area +4 turn resistance.

That's quite a high density (a 100' circle is about 1200 squares, so that's a 1 HD zombie farmer in four out of five squares), but in a city with many high-HD medium-sized undead, it could be reached. The trouble is that any storage buildings or mansions will not achieve the density, because there is a lot of space without undead. Still, it might be interesting to have massive amounts of low-HD zombies in a tunnel system under the city, to provide turn resistance, waste disposal, and guards at the same time.

If you can manage this, the fell energy ghoul lantern, and the desecrated altars, you will have +7 turn resistance and -6 to turning checks for everyone in the city, and most citizens should have +2 turn resistance to begin with, for an minimum effective HD - for the purposes of turning - of 10.



Err, tl;dr: turning and rebuking are relatively easy to counter, and most civilized undead would hack together some magic items to protect themselves, if it became an issue. It may simply not be an issue in well-policed cities.

[legomaster00156]

The altars every 40' seems weird, but consider this: ghouls don't need streetlamps. Just make "streetlamps" every couple dozen feet, going about 10' high, and with Desecrated altars at the top instead of lights.