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Hefty Lefty
2007-05-15, 02:27 PM
I want to include centaurs in my world, and even make them playable races. But, their CR seems way too low. LA:+2 for +8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom!? My friend claims they should have a LA:+6, but also says that being Large is a pretty big setback. What do you guys think? What should the LA be?

LordRahl
2007-05-15, 02:40 PM
They have LA +6. +2 LA and 4 racial hit dice.

JaronK
2007-05-15, 02:42 PM
Since they have LA+2 and 4 racial hit die, a Centaur with one class level is a 7th level character.

JaronK

Jasdoif
2007-05-15, 02:43 PM
They have LA +6. +2 LA and 4 racial hit dice.Careful double-using the term "LA"...but yes, a centuar's ECL is 6 higher then its class levels, if any.

Hefty Lefty
2007-05-15, 03:16 PM
Oh, thanks for clearing that up, guys.

the_tick_rules
2007-05-15, 04:07 PM
the HD are an often overlooked aspect, i've done it myself.

Counterspin
2007-05-16, 11:46 AM
I often intentionally overlook racial hit die because they make most of the monster races really really bad.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-16, 11:46 AM
I often intentionally overlook racial hit die because they make most of the monster races really really bad.

RHD are better than LA!

Piccamo
2007-05-16, 11:49 AM
I often intentionally overlook racial hit die because they make most of the monster races really really bad.
I usually just allow players to take levels in the monster if they want more of the benefits. They don't all have to be the typical centaur, minotaur, etc. Throughout several WoTC books and www.wizards.com lots of desirable monster race class levels have been published.

Ramza00
2007-05-16, 12:01 PM
I often intentionally overlook racial hit die because they make most of the monster races really really bad.

Can I play A giant in one of your games, perhaps the

Hill Giant with +14 Str, +8 Con, –2 Dex, –4 Int, –4 Cha, +9 Natural Armor bonus to AC for +4 LA

or
Sand Giant +16 Str, +10 Dex, +10 Con, +6 Wis, +2 Cha 40’ Movement, 10’ Burrow, +11 Natural Armor bonus to AC for +4 LA

or
Troll +12 Str, +4 Dex, +12 Con, –4 Int, –2 Wis, –4 Cha 2 claws 1 bite, +5 Natural Armor bonus to AC, Regeneration 5 Acid and fire for +5 LA

or
Troll, Crystalline +12 Str, +4 Dex, +12 Con, –4 Int, –2 Wis, –2 Cha 2 claws 1 bite, +7 Natural Armor bonus to AC, Regeneration 5 Sonic for +5 LA

I think I will stop here

Counterspin
2007-05-16, 12:11 PM
I do declare, Mr. Ramza has caught me off guard by quoting the Monster Manual at me. If only I owned such a book, so that I would have this knowledge before me, then I would not be so faint. Someone fetch my salts, I must retire to my couch. :smallsmile:
Of course you could abuse such a setup, but the point of it is to make the crummy races playable, not to be abusive.

Ramza00
2007-05-16, 12:13 PM
Of course you could abuse such a setup, but the point of it is to make the crummy races playable, not to be abusive.
Well then don't remove the racial hd in entirety. If you find a certain monster rhd+LA is too much, reduce the rhd by 1 or 2, or cut it in half.

Counterspin
2007-05-16, 12:16 PM
Yeah, that would probably be for the best. *Shrug* Never had a player want to run a race with a gigantic number of hit die, so in general I just waive them. As I said, I often ignore the racial hit dice.

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-16, 12:21 PM
Don't remove RHD. Remove the LA instead. Usually most of the races under ECL 10 are overcosted by at least 1-2 LA. I would even go so far as to say you can cut it back to 1 LA per 3 RHD maximum.

Latronis
2007-05-16, 12:41 PM
If I gotta eat an ECL 6 I awnt as much Racial Hit dice and as little level adjustment as possible

Penguinsushi
2007-05-16, 12:47 PM
Centaurs are cool, but I think I can sum up their biggest drawback in one word: ladders.

I've had a centaur pc in one of my games before, and the biggest problem I had as the gm was making sure it could physically go all the places that the more normal, humanoid characters could...

yeah, the LA/ECL system is screwed up. Too many times you end up with a alleged 8th level character with 2 hit dice. It's got some nifty abilities, but it can't survive the goblin attack.

I generally encourage players to play more normal races anyway, but I tend to handle oddities like that on a case-by-case basis.

~PS

LotharBot
2007-05-16, 01:35 PM
Too many times you end up with a alleged 8th level character with 2 hit dice. It's got some nifty abilities, but it can't survive the goblin attack.

A lot of the higher LA races only make sense to play in a campaign that starts at a high level (higher than you'd expect.)

Centaurs work pretty well starting straight at ECL 6, because a 4 HD centaur has fairly similar abilities (some advantages, some disadvantages) to your average level 6 melee character. But something like a pixie, with 0 racial HD and a +4 LA, doesn't become viable until it's got at least 4 or 5 class levels. Even then, it's pretty fragile (except for the fact that it's invisible and flying "way over there"...)

I would say, in general, never allow a character that will have fewer than half the expected number of HD. If you're starting at level 6, don't allow anything with more than a +3 LA... if you're starting at 10, don't allow anything with more than +5. That guarantees that, while the character might be fragile, they won't be a single stray arrow away from death.

Counterspin
2007-05-16, 01:39 PM
Dropping the LA is a little too far in my book, because it reduces the downsides to playing a more powerful race, including, but not limited to, fewer hitpoints, worse BAB, worse saves, lower initiator level, fewer skill points at a lower cap. Some of the racial hit die are really, really nice. Outsider is one of the primary offenders

* 8-sided Hit Dice.
* Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
* Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.
* Skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.

So if you suck up the LA for an outsider into it's RHD, you get something that, and I know this will be a big restraint to the player:smallbiggrin: , has fighter BAB, monk saves, and rogue skill points, in addition to it's other racial traits. Too much in my book.

Latronis
2007-05-16, 01:55 PM
Dosen't stop LA from still blowing too majorly

LotharBot
2007-05-16, 02:01 PM
I certainly wouldn't recommend eliminating LA entirely... but there are a few races that should have slightly reduced LA or else RHD converted into class levels.

iceman
2007-05-16, 02:24 PM
Another downside for Centaurs and most other Large creatures is the availability of Armor and weapons and the cost of those items. A Centaur can't wear/use conventional arms and armor and when purchasing armor for themselves I believe that it costs either twice or four times as much as a standard set of armor.

As for ladders, stairs, and the like start with a ring a feather falling or carry several potions of fly (later getting the fly ability placed on a magic item for you)

Also, be sure to decide on mounted combat rules and feats and have everyone on the same page. Spirited Charge can get pretty ugly with a centaur.

Finally, the best magical items are horseshoes. Either by increasing your speed by 30 or picking up (can't remember the item name) a pair of horse shoes that allows you to move, run, and charge normally over bad terrain and even water or lava.

Latronis
2007-05-16, 02:31 PM
Horseshoes of a Zephyr?

Jasdoif
2007-05-16, 03:01 PM
Finally, the best magical items are horseshoes. Either by increasing your speed by 30 or picking up (can't remember the item name) a pair of horse shoes that allows you to move, run, and charge normally over bad terrain and even water or lava.As written those horseshoes won't work for a centaur, since both horseshoes of speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#horseshoesofSpeed) and horseshoes of a zephyr (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#horseshoesofaZephyr) state "All four shoes must be worn by the same animal for the magic to be effective", and a centaur is a monstrous humanoid.

Latronis
2007-05-16, 03:17 PM
As written they don't say only those with the animal type can wear them

Counterspin
2007-05-16, 03:37 PM
Once you get out of the very early levels the base cost of weapons and armor becomes a tiny percentage of their overall value, meaning that that downside is very short lived.

And I agree with Latronis, I believe the phrase "All four shoes must be worn by the same animal for the magic to be effective" is meant to prevent you from slapping four different magical shoes on one horse and reaping all four different benefits. In other words, I think it's intended as a magic slot rule and not a type rule.

Jasdoif
2007-05-16, 03:53 PM
And I agree with Latronis, I believe the phrase "All four shoes must be worn by the same animal for the magic to be effective" is meant to prevent you from slapping four different magical shoes on one horse and reaping all four different benefits. In other words, I think it's intended as a magic slot rule and not a type rule.Maybe...oh, what the heck, let's just take a look at their whole entries.


Horseshoes of Speed

These iron shoes come in sets of four like ordinary horseshoes. When affixed to an animal’s hooves, they increase the animal’s base land speed by 30 feet; this counts as an enhancement bonus. As with other effects that increase speed, jumping distances increase proportionally. All four shoes must be worn by the same animal for the magic to be effective.

Faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, haste; Price 3,000 gp;Weight 12 lb. (for four).

Horseshoes of a Zephyr

These four iron shoes are affixed like normal horseshoes. They allow a horse to travel without actually touching the ground. The horse must still run above (always around 4 inches above) a roughly horizontal surface. This means that nonsolid or unstable surfaces can be crossed, and that movement is possible without leaving tracks on any sort of ground. The horse moves at its normal base land speed. All four shoes must be worn by the same animal for the magic to be effective.

Faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, levitate; Price 6,000 gp;Weight 4 lb. (for four). That's a lot of mention of "animal" (and "horse", in the case of the zephyr variety). Between that, and how the horseshoes are less expensive then similar items for characters, I'm pretty sure they're meant to restricted to animals (or technically just a horse in the case of the zephyr, I suppose.)

If you want to try this for a centaur anyway, better talk with your DM about it first.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-16, 03:59 PM
Maybe...oh, what the heck, let's just take a look at their whole entries.

That's a lot of mention of "animal" (and "horse", in the case of the zephyr variety). Between that, and how the horseshoes are less expensive then similar items for characters, I'm pretty sure they're meant to restricted to animals (or technically just a horse in the case of the zephyr, I suppose.)

If you want to try this for a centaur anyway, better talk with your DM about it first.

Animal, not being capitalized, does not refer to the creature's type. It's the same difference as saying a large creature and a Large creature. The former is a descriptor (he's big); the latter is a mechanical depiction (he takes up a 2x2 space).

Jasdoif
2007-05-16, 04:25 PM
Animal, not being capitalized, does not refer to the creature's type. It's the same difference as saying a large creature and a Large creature. The former is a descriptor (he's big); the latter is a mechanical depiction (he takes up a 2x2 space).OK, that makes sense, thanks.


So it all comes down to if the DM considers a centaur an animal (or horse) or not. Asking your DM first is still a good idea.

Counterspin
2007-05-16, 05:00 PM
As always, Rule 0 applies, but centaurs are unavoidably animals, as animals are defined in ye olde english.

Hefty Lefty
2007-05-16, 05:15 PM
Rule 0 (I'm guessing that means "DM Houserules trump everything," but I'm not sure)?

Also, I think that even if animal was capitalized, it would still include Centaurs. A Centaur is basically top-half human, bottom-half horse. The horseshoes go on the bottom which is regarded as a Horse (Animal), so they would work. Now if there was so kind of muzzle or reigns or something that goes on a horse's head, it would not work on Centaurs because the top half is regarded as Human (Humanoid), not Horse (Animal).

Jasdoif
2007-05-16, 05:20 PM
Rule 0 (I'm guessing that means "DM Houserules trump everything," but I'm not sure)?Rule 0 is, basically, "What the DM says, goes". It's more then just house rules, the DM has the authority to allow, deny, or alter anything in the game; as he or she sees fit.