Pact Boon Choices [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

CerealKiller

2015-09-20, 03:39 PM

Im currently making a half-elf (drow) warlock and i have had a bit of trouble choosing a boon and not sure which one i should pick.

rooster707

2015-09-20, 03:48 PM

The general consensus on this forum seems to be Blade. IDK why though.

Toadkiller

2015-09-20, 03:53 PM

Not sure all agree on that, but it has its fans for sure. I'm enjoying my tome warlock. The chain dipped sorlock is basically owning all exploration with their familiar though.

Check here.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/145sMsEjdCEggr_7-VvGjJ4fvZyYczff3UiAP_QjVV0k/mobilebasic?pli=1

SharkForce

2015-09-20, 03:53 PM

The general consensus on this forum seems to be Blade. IDK why though.

i don't know why you would say that. i've seen plenty of suggestions to go with the other two on these forums.

it mostly depends on what you want to do. blade is a very obvious choice if you want to make a weapon-using warlock, and i've never seen it suggested outside of that context. apart from that, both chain and tome have some good points to them. it mostly depends on what you want to do.

TrollCapAmerica

2015-09-20, 04:21 PM

Bladelock is the sub-optimal choice but not by a massive margin like Beastermaster Champ etc. Chain is as good as the bonus you get from your familiar and hey look cool Hold Monster. Tome exists to get every ritual in the game on a class with a normally horribly limited spell list. The best of which are probably Cleric Divination spells along with things like find familiar water breathing Lemonds tiny hut or Rarys telepathic bond

CerealKiller

2015-09-20, 04:51 PM

Thanks guys for the help guys but with the party not having a full time healer i think i need to pick the tome

SharkForce

2015-09-20, 06:19 PM

tome won't help you heal.

in fact, broadly speaking, no warlock pact will help you heal at all. it can help support other healing, but that's about the extent of it.

TrollCapAmerica

2015-09-20, 06:22 PM

You also dont need a dedicated healer in this game. Winning a fight with the right spell selection is always better than blowing spell slots and actions healing a few HP

TopCheese

2015-09-20, 07:10 PM

Bladelocks do decent melee damage but there really is no point in doing melee damage as you have Eldritch Blast + evocation. It's like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Tome locks are nice, they open up a lot of options. Shillelagh works just fine for when you feel like being a bit melee. However if you have other casters in your party that have rituals you may feel like second fiddle.

Chain is probably the best out of all of them as it gives you something you can't really get other places. The wizards familiar is no where near as good as yours. Familiar to draw out enemies and you smiling them from maximum distance (+cha mod to each bolt) goes a long way.

I actually think evocation selections is more important than noon selection.

georgie_leech

2015-09-20, 07:32 PM

I actually think evocation selections is more important than noon selection.

That's because even though it comes at the same time as other subclasses, the Pact Boon is a comparatively minor benefit. They pick their's at first level; their patron, not their Boon, is their subclass.

Naanomi

2015-09-20, 07:35 PM

TopCheese

2015-09-20, 07:47 PM

Most analysis I have read paints tome as the best overall choice, with chain a distant second (you can get most the benefits from a regular familiar) and blade only for niche, usually multiclass, builds

Not really.

The basic familiar is miles behind the Warlock familiar, especially after you boost it. The thing with the Warlock is that when you pick up Ritual Caster feat and Chain boon you can have both a normal familiar and a super Familiar since they are from two different sources.

Tome is good, but most of it is either "why bother" (cantrips) or replicated closely by a feat (ritual casting).

Blade can be replicated quite easily with a 1 level dip or taking tome. Sure later on you won't keep up with melee damage when you pick tome but you will have other options.

I like Tome the most but feel that Chain is the strongest/best Warlock boon.

Belac93

2015-09-20, 08:08 PM

I would say this:
Blade: This is an interesting warlock choice. In my experience, it is mainly useful for multiclass melee characters. Bladelock/Paladin is awesome.
Tome: This gives your character a ton of versatility. I would take this one if you have trouble responding to multiple different situations.
Chain: This is the ultimate explorers tool. Take this on exploration heavy campaigns.

Daishain

2015-09-20, 08:54 PM

Tome is almost certainly the best all around choice due to massively increased versatility. Blade is better for Gish builds, but that represents only a few warlocks. Chain is very nice in a vacuum, but a Tome warlock that picks up Find Familiar invalidates most of its advantage.

Kane0

2015-09-20, 09:53 PM

If you have no full casters, then Tome will give you some much needed ritual casting. Believe me, rituals come in handy.

If you have few bruisers, then Blade will give you respectable melee capability so you can help out and sub in if things get hairy. Your Temp HP spells and abilities will be your primary means of staying alive.

If your party is lacking in stealth and utility then the chain should be your pick. An improved familiar is an invaluable scout and extra pair of hands, and don't forget you aren't necessarily locked into the one familiar!
Note: Tome can also pick up find familiar as a ritual in order to fill this bit to a lesser extent.

Toadkiller

2015-09-20, 10:03 PM

Just watching how the Chain familiar works, I think it kind of gimps the game a bit. Or at least trivializes the exploration component. How much of an issue that is remains open to interpretation of course.

DivisibleByZero

2015-09-20, 11:26 PM

The general consensus on this forum seems to be Blade. IDK why though.

I can tell you why I believe it to be so, very simply.
All I have to do is copy the same post that I always copy when this question arises.

Bladelocks are nowhere near as terrible as you make them out to be. As a matter of fact, it is hands down the strongest Pact choice, by a wide margin.

Chainlocks have a fantastic familiar. This can be useful for scouting, and RP, and all sorts of different out of combat situations.
Familiars in combat are going to be extremely DM dependent. I have heard many people claim that an invisible familiar can Help an ally to grant advantage on attack rolls, by saying mean things and poking enemies in the butt (that's a quote, not me being obtuse). If your DM would allow this, then go for it, but don't count on it. If your DM doesn't allow invisible cretures slinging insults to grant advantage then your familiar is going to get killed if he's in melee range. Very quickly. And very frequently.
Pact of the Chain makes you a regular blaster warlock that has some extra out of combat utility due to an amazing familiar.

Tomelocks can have a couple extra cantrips and great ritual casting.
Their extra cantrips are basically useless in combat, because Eldritch Blast will almost undoubtedly be better. So their extra cantrip choices are useful for out of combat situations. They have amazing ritual casting, but rituals are not used in combat as they take too long, so those are also useful for out of combat situations.
So Pact of the Tome makes you a regular blaster warlock that has some extra out of combat utility in the form of extra cantrips and lots of rituals.

While the other two Pacts focus more on out of combat utility via various means, the Bladelock is a bit different. The Bladelock focuses on adding more combat options, by granting proficiency in any melee weapon you want when you manifest your pact blade, and offering ways to improve your melee aptitude.
So Pact of the Blade makes you a regular blaster warlock that has a viable melee option in combat, which is something that you cannot get from another Pact.

Tthe Ritual Caster feat gives both wizard rituals (a big part of the Tomelock's schtick) and a familiar (a big part of the Chainlock's schtick). So if he wants to, with a single feat a Bladelock can gain a large portion of the other two Pacts' benefits while retaining his own. So not only does a Bladelock have something that the other Pacts cannot get in the form of reliable and competitive melee damage, but he can also get a large portion of their tricks as well.

So for a combat oriented warlock, there is really only one option, and that option is Pact of the Blade.

I have heard many people complain that Bladelocks require more invocations than other types of warlocks. This is simply untrue.

If you choose Pact of the Tome, you are useless without taking Book of Ancient Secrets (available at level three).
That's an invocation tax.

If you choose Pact of the Chain, but do not take Voice of the Chain Master (available at level three), you would literally be better off using Pact of the Tome or the Ritual Caster feat to get your familiar. Not only that, but Chains of Carceri (available at level 15) is free, slotless CC against many outsiders, and you'd be a fool not to take it unless you know for certain that these enemies will not be prevalent in the campaign.
That's two invocation taxes.

If you choose Pact of the Blade, you will take Thirsting Blade (available at level five) and Lifedrinker (available at level 12) to keep your melee damage up to par.
That's two invocation taxes.

So the Chainlock and the Bladelock each have two invocation taxes, while the Tomelock has one.
Not much difference there at all.

Every single warlock that wants to focus on dealing damage will take Agonizing Blast. There's one invocation spoken for right away, for every warlock, no matter your Pact choice, likely right at level two. People like to claim that Bladelocks won't have the same EB that another warlock has, but let me ask you, what are you spending your invocations on prior to level five? Agonizing Blast is one of them.
Every single warlock that wants to offer a little at-will CC will take Repelling Blast. Tomelocks and Chainlocks will likely take this to keep enemies away, while the Bladelock may not because he doesn't mind being in melee.

This means we probably have three invocations spoken for already for the Tomelock: Book of Ancient Secrets, Agonizing Blast, and Repelling Blast.
This means we probably have four invocations spoken for already for the Chainlock: Voice of the Chain Master, Chains of Carceri, Agonizing Blast, and Repelling Blast.
This means we probably have three invocations spoken for already for the Bladelock: Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker, and Agonizing Blast. Without Repelling, he has three invocation taxes, just like the Tomelock. If he wants, he can take Repelling, bringing the total to four just like the probable Chainlock build.

So tell me, why does everyone think that Bladelocks have some harsh invocation tax? They have no more of an invocation tax than any other warlock has. Saying that they do is simply untrue.

As I have already shown, Bladelocks will have just as good of an EB as any other warlock. They don't suddenly lose the ability to choose EB as a cantrip and its accompanying invocations by taking this Pact, although that's what some people would have you believe.
They may take a little bit longer to get their Charisma to max 20, but that's almost a non-issue in actual play. In actual play, a + or - 1 for a few levels isn't going to ruin your character like some would have you believe.

So let's look at some comparisons, shall we?
We'll make the Chainlock and Tomelock (hereafter named Blastlocks) start with a 16 Cha, raising it at levels 4 and 8, to 18 and 20 respectively.
The Bladelock will begin with a 16 in both Dex and Cha, raising Dex at levels 4 and 12, and Cha at levels 8 and 16. This will leave the Bladelock with a Cha score two points lower than the Blastlock's for a couple of levels here and there.
Zero feats, zero fighting styles, zero house rules, just straight up comparisons that literally any warlock in any game can reasonably expect.
We'll assign +1 weapons at levels 3 and 8 (I was going to do 3 and 6, but that left only the Bladelock at that level, so I postponed it for ease of use), +2 weapons at levels 8 and 11, and +3 weapons at levels 13 and 16. Remember, you only need to find a single finesse weapon. The other weapon can literally be anything, as your Pact allows you to create the weapon in any form you choose.
Blastlocks have no way to increase their EB's damage (only attack and save DCs), so we'll just give them a magical rod to aid in attack rolls at levels 3, 8, and 13.
The levels chosen for the magic items (3, 8, 13 for main, and 8, 11, 16 for off hand) are a bit arbitrary, but seem reasonable.
I will not give the Bladelock a magic rod, so his EB will be at a lower attack bonus. Although swapping weapons was described by the designers as something that should simply be able to happen, which means any time he wanted to swap he should be able to without a problem. But I'll be nice and simply not give him one.

Level 1 Blastlock and Bladelock EB: hex, 16 CHA, +5 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6 damage = 0.85
55% normal chance for 1d10+1d6 damage = 4.95
Damage = 5.8

Level 1 Bladelock TWF: 2 reg sSwords, hex, 16 DEX, +5 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 4d6+3 damage = 0.85
5% crit chance for 4d6 damage = 0.7
55% normal chance for 2d6+3 damage = 5.5
55% normal chance for 2d6 damage = 3.85
Damage = 10.9 / 6.35 without bonus action

TWF Bladelock is the clear winner at level 1, even without the use of his bonus action.

************************************************** ***************************

Level 2 Blastlock and Bladelock EB: hex, 16 CHA, +5 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+3 damage = 1
55% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+3 damage = 6.6
Damage = 7.6

Bladelock TWF remains at 10.9 / 6.35 without bonus action

TWF Bladelock is still the clear winner with his bonus action, and is only 1 pt behind without it.

************************************************** ***************************

Level 3 Blastlock EB: +1 rod, hex, 16 CHA, +6 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+3 damage = 1
60% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+3 damage = 7.2
Damage = 8.2

Level 3 Bladelock TWF: +1 pact sSword, reg sSword, hex, 16 DEX, +6 and +5 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 4d6+4 damage = 0.9
5% crit chance for 4d6 damage = 0.7
60% normal chance for 2d6+4 damage = 6.6
55% normal chance for 2d6 damage = 3.85
Damage = 12.05 / 7.5 without bonus action

Bladelock EB remains at 7.6

TWF Bladelock is 4 pts ahead with his bonus action, and less than 1 pt behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is only 1 pt behind the Blastlock's.

************************************************** ***************************

Level 4 Blastlock EB: +1 rod, 18 CHA, +7 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+4 damage = 1.05
65% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+4 damage = 8.45
Damage = 9.5

Level 4 Bladelock TWF: +1 pact sSword, reg sSword, hex, 18 DEX, +7 and +6 vs AC 15
5% crit chance for 4d6+5 damage = 0.95
5% crit chance for 4d6 damage = 0.7
65% normal chance for 2d6+5 damage = 7.8
60% normal chance for 2d6 damage = 4.2
Damage = 13.65 / 8.75 without bonus action

Bladelock EB remains at 7.6

TWF Bladelock is 4 pts ahead with his bonus action, and is only 1 pt behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is only 2 pts behind the Blastlock's.

************************************************** ***************************

Level 5 Blastlock EB: 2nd blast: +1 rod, hex, 18 CHA, +8 vs AC 16
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+4 damage = 1.05(*2) = 2.1
65% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+4 damage = 8.45(*2) = 16.9
Damage = 19

Level 5 Bladelock TWF: extra attack: +1 pact sSword, reg sSword, hex, 18 DEX, +8 and +7 vs AC 16
5% crit chance for 4d6+5 damage = 0.95(*2) = 1.9
5% crit chance for 4d6 damage = 0.7
65% normal chance for 2d6+5 damage = 7.2(*2) = 14.4
60% normal chance for 2d6 damage = 4.2
Damage = 21.2 / 16.3 without bonus action

Level 5 Bladelock EB: 2nd blast: hex, 16 CHA, +6 vs AC 16
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+3 damage = 1(*2) = 2
55% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+3 damage = 6.6(*2) = 13.2
Damage = 15.2

TWF Bladelock is 2 pts ahead with his bonus action, and is 3 pts behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is 4 pts behind the Blastlock's.

************************************************** ***************************

Level 8 Blastlock EB: +2 rod, hex, 20 CHA, +10 vs AC 16
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(2) = 2.2
75% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 10.5(*2) = 21
Damage = 23.2

Level 8 Bladelock TWF: +2 pact sSword, +1 sSword, hex, 18 DEX, +9 and +8 vs AC 16
5% crit chance for 4d6+6 damage = 1(*2) = 2
5% crit chance for 4d6+1 damage = 0.75
70% normal chance for 2d6+6 damage = 9.1(*2) = 18.2
65% normal chance for 2d6+1 damage = 5.2
Damage = 26.15 / 20.2 without bonus action

Level 8 Bladelock EB: hex, 18 CHA, +7 vs AC 16
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+4 damage = 1.05(*2) = 2.1
60% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+4 damage = 7.8(*2) = 15.6
Damage = 17.7

TWF Bladelock is 3 pts ahead with his bonus action, and is 3 pts behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is 3 pts behind the Blastlock's.

************************************************** ***************************

Level 11 Blastlock EB: 3rd blast, +2 rod, hex, 20 CHA, +11 vs AC 17
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*3) = 3.3
75% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 10.5(*3) = 31.5
Damage = 34.8

Level 11 Bladelock TWF: +2 pact sSword, +2 sSword, hex, 18 DEX, +10 vs AC 17
5% crit chance for 4d6+6 damage = 1(*2) = 2
5% crit chance for 4d6+2 damage = 0.8
70% normal chance for 2d6+6 damage = 9.1(*2) = 18.2
70% normal chance for 2d6+2 damage = 6.3
Damage = 27.3 / 20.2 without bonus action

Level 11 Blastlock EB: 3rd blast, hex, 18 CHA, +8 vs AC 17
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*3) = 3.3
60% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 8.4(*3) = 25.2
Damage = 28.5

Level 12 Bladelock TWF: +2 pact sSword, +2 sSword, hex, 20 DEX, 18 CHA, +11 vs AC 17
5% crit chance for 4d6+11 damage = 1.25(*2) = 2.5
5% crit chance for 4d6+2 damage = 0.8
75% normal chance for 2d6+11 damage = 13.5(*2) = 27
75% normal chance for 2d6+2 damage = 6.75
Damage = 37.05 / 29.5 without bonus action

At level 11 the Blastlock pulls ahead with his third blast, and at level 12 the Bladelock catches up again with Lifedrinker. I grouped all of these together.
TWF Bladelock is 2 pts ahead with his bonus action, and is 5 pts behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is 6 pts behind the Blastlock's.

************************************************** ***************************

Level 13 Blastlock EB: +3 rod, hex, 20 CHA, +13 vs AC 17
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*3) = 3.3
85% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 11.9(*3) = 35.7
Damage = 39

Level 13 Bladelock TWF: +3 pact sSword, +2 sSword, hex, 20 DEX, 18 CHA, +13 and +12 vs AC 17
5% crit chance for 4d6+12 damage = 1.3(*2) = 2.6
5% crit chance for 4d6+2 damage = 0.8
85% normal chance for 2d6+12 damage = 16.15(*2) = 32.3
80% normal chance for 2d6+2 damage = 7.2
Damage = 42.9 / 34.9 without bonus action

Bladelock EB remains at 28.5

TWF Bladelock is 3 pts ahead with his bonus action, and is 4 pts behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is 10 pts behind the Blastlock's.

************************************************** ***************************

Level 16 Blastlock EB: +3 rod, hex, 20 CHA, +13 vs AC 18
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*3) = 3.3
80% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 11.2(*3) = 33.6
Damage = 36.9

Level 16 Bladelock TWF: +3 pact sSword, +3 sSword, hex, 20 DEX, 20 CHA, +13 vs AC 18
5% crit chance for 4d6+13 damage = 1.35(*2) = 2.7
5% crit chance for 4d6+3 damage = 0.85
80% normal chance for 2d6+13 damage = 16(*2) = 32
80% normal chance for 2d6+3 damage = 8
Damage = 43.55 / 34.7 without bonus action

Level 16 Bladelock EB: hex, 20 CHA, +10 vs AC 18
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*3) = 3.3
65% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 9.1(*3) = 27.3
Damage = 30.6

TWF Bladelock is 7 pts ahead with his bonus action, and is 2 pts behind without it.
Bladelock's EB is 7 pts behind the Blastlock's.

************************************************** ***************************

Level 17 Blastlock EB: 4th blast, +3 rod, hex, 20 CHA, +14 vs AC 19
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*4) = 4.4
80% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 11.2(*4) = 44.8
Damage = 49.2

Bladelock TWF remains at 43.55 / 34.7 without bonus action

Level 17 Bladelock EB: 4th blast, hex, 20 CHA, +11 vs AC 19
5% crit chance for 2d10+2d6+5 damage = 1.1(*4) = 4.4
65% normal chance for 1d10+1d6+5 damage = 9.1(*4) = 36.4
Damage = 40.8

And at level 17 the TWF Bladelock finally falls behind, by 5 pts with his bonus action, and by a significant 14 pts behind without it.
Most campaigns don't even go this far, so it is very possible that you may never see a time when your Bladelock's melee damage falls behind that of a Blastlock's EB.
Bladelock's EB is 8 pts behind the Blastlock's.

As you can see, the Bladelock's melee damage stays competitive with, or better than, the Blastlock's EB all the way through level 16. At level 17, the Blastlock pulls ahead by about 5 points.
And this entire time, the Bladelock still has a good EB himself if he wants or needs it.
And remember, I didn't give the Bladelock a magic rod. If he also has one, like the Blastlock, his EB is slightly lower between levels 4-15 due to -1 to hit comparatively because of a slightly lower Cha during those levels. But that -1 to hit doesn't change things very much. Beyond that, at levels 1-3 and 16+ he would have an identical EB to the Blastlock if he also had a rod, and will only be a tiny bit behind (by a couple of points at most) during levels 4-15.

So, in summary:
No, Bladelocks do not have any crazy invocation tax.
No, Bladelocks do not suffer from damage issues.
What Bladelocks do is offer you a second combat option in melee, and that option is fully functional and viable.
The Bladelock can spend a feat to get many of the same goodies as warlocks with other Pacts, while getting something that the Other Pacts have no way to get in a melee option that rivals a Fighter through 19 levels of play.
Why some of you think this is an inferior Pact is beyond me. It is hands down the most powerful Pact available.

There you go. That's why.

JoeJ

2015-09-20, 11:35 PM

I have a problem with this part:

Not only that, but Chains of Carceri (available at level 15) is free, slotless CC against many outsiders, and you'd be a fool not to take it unless you know for certain that these enemies will not be prevalent in the campaign.

If you'd be a fool not to take this invocation, then it follows that you'd be a fool not to choose the only pact that allows you to take this invocation. If Pact of the Tome or Pact of the Blade warlocks can get by without it, then Pact of the Chain warlocks can too.

DivisibleByZero

2015-09-20, 11:42 PM

I have a problem with this part:

If you'd be a fool not to take this invocation, then it follows that you'd be a fool not to choose the only pact that allows you to take this invocation. If Pact of the Tome or Pact of the Blade warlocks can get by without it, then Pact of the Chain warlocks can too.

Do I really need to clarify that unless you know those enemies will not be prevalent, then you'd be a fool not to take it IF YOU GO WITH CHAIN PACT? Did I REALLY need to specify that for you, or can you just maybe take it in context?

SharkForce

2015-09-20, 11:44 PM

tome locks can take shillelagh. there's their melee option.

most locks will have some degree of dexterity on account of not being able to wear armour. this provides another easy melee option for most locks.

all locks can take crossbow expert. presto, instant melee combat option in a single feat. didn't you just say the other lock options could have most of their benefits granted by a single feat in either case? hey, turns out bladelock can also have it's biggest thing (a melee option) given away too.

particularly if you have little to no reason to expect to be in melee in the first place (bonus marks if you take warcaster for the ridiculous AoO option... honestly, pretty much every warlock should probably at least consider taking warcaster either way, especially if they expect to ever find themselves on the front line).

Malifice

2015-09-20, 11:48 PM

Dont take blade.

It's only decent if you have planned for it in advance, and really requires some MCing to pull off properly, and then it is amazing.

The familiar is the balls. Tome is great as it gives you a familiar (not as good as the chain familliar), a melee option with shilleligh (not as good as the blade option) and opens up all the rituals in the game for you.

CNagy

2015-09-20, 11:55 PM

If you'd be a fool not to take this invocation, then it follows that you'd be a fool not to choose the only pact that allows you to take this invocation. If Pact of the Tome or Pact of the Blade warlocks can get by without it, then Pact of the Chain warlocks can too.

It doesn't follow, because the choice of the invocation is predicated on having already paid the opportunity cost associated with choosing a pact. If you haven't chosen a pact yet, you'd be a fool to...

A) Not take Book of Ancient Secrets
B) Not take Thirsting Blade (unless you multiclass into something that gives extra attack) and Lifedrinker
and C) Not take Voice of the Chain Master and (possibly) Chains of Carceri.

Clearly, this set of options by your argument means you are destined to be a fool no matter what you do.

DivisibleByZero

2015-09-21, 12:03 AM

tome locks can take shillelagh. there's their melee option.
You're joking, right?
Shillelagh, with hex: 1 attack for 1d8+1d6+5= ~13 damage average if you hit.
TWF Bladelock with hex: 2 attacks with pact blade and 1 possible attack with off hand for (1d6+1d6+10)*2, or for those counting, 4d6+20 main hand and 2d6 off hand, totaling an average of 41 if all 3 hit (34 if you can't use your bonus action due to swapping hex).
13 damage vs 34/41 damage.
But please, continue to convince me that shillelagh is a viable and comparable melee option compared to a bladelock's pact blade.

all locks can take crossbow expert. presto, instant melee combat option in a single feat. didn't you just say the other lock options could have most of their benefits granted by a single feat in either case? hey, turns out bladelock can also have it's biggest thing (a melee option) given away too.
Crossbox Expert doesn't give you a melee option. XbX removes disadvantage from your ranged EB attack.
Shooting your EB in melee range without fear of DisAdv is not the same thing as having a viable and fully functional melee option, because it's not a melee option at all.
Nice try though.

<Blade is> only decent if you have planned for it in advance, and really requires some MCing to pull off properly, and then it is amazing.
That much I'll agree with. If you didn't plan on it from the jump, then you're probably better off with one of the other two pacts.
I disagree that it requires multiclassing to pull off, as I have shown above.

JoeJ

2015-09-21, 12:15 AM

Do I really need to clarify that unless you know those enemies will not be prevalent, then you'd be a fool not to take it IF YOU GO WITH CHAIN PACT? Did I REALLY need to specify that for you, or can you just maybe take it in context?

No need to be rude, I understood what you said. But unless you can point out another class feature that is equally good or better against those enemies, but not available to chain pact warlocks, then you'd be a fool not to take that invocation for exactly the same reason that you'd be a fool not to take the pact that allows you to choose that invocation.

Malifice

2015-09-21, 12:15 AM

I disagree that it requires multiclassing to pull off, as I have shown above.

I can assure you it does. You can make a better than crap one without MCing, but to be actually good at melee you need at least a single level of Fighter (3 are better), a level of Cleric, or two of paladin.

JNAProductions

2015-09-21, 12:15 AM

Crossbox Expert doesn't give you a melee option. XbX removes disadvantage from your ranged EB attack.
Shooting your EB in melee range without fear of DisAdv is not the same thing as having a viable and fully functional melee option, because it's not a melee option at all.
Nice try though.

It's usable in melee ranges, and is incredibly powerful, with DPR comparable to a Fighter's. How is that not a melee option?

Toadkiller

2015-09-21, 12:22 AM

So back to the OP. You can have a good time playing any of them. Look at the guide I linked above, read the comments here and have fun

Strill

2015-09-21, 12:48 AM

Crossbox Expert doesn't give you a melee option. XbX removes disadvantage from your ranged EB attack.
Shooting your EB in melee range without fear of DisAdv is not the same thing as having a viable and fully functional melee option, because it's not a melee option at all.
Nice try though.Name a practical difference between your "viable and fully functional melee option", and the option of making a ranged Eldritch Blast attack without disadvantage.

SharkForce

2015-09-21, 12:49 AM

as a warlock, you don't *need* a melee attack option that does competitive DPR. it's a backup plan for extreme emergencies, not your standard option. if you have the option to use ranged attacks (and you should most of the time, you're a reasonably mobile character with potentially extreme range on your attack and the ability to push enemies back quite a bit), you use ranged attacks. so no, there's no reason your melee option should be expected to compare extremely well to your ranged option. especially if you can choose to have your ranged option work perfectly well in melee.

Kane0

2015-09-21, 01:03 AM

I have a problem with this part:

If you'd be a fool not to take this invocation, then it follows that you'd be a fool not to choose the only pact that allows you to take this invocation. If Pact of the Tome or Pact of the Blade warlocks can get by without it, then Pact of the Chain warlocks can too.

It's a good read though. If that's the only criticism you get, kudos to you.
Do you have a similar one for Beastmasters by any chance?

Edit: Far too late on that post.
Its a shame you get so defensive, Divisible. You make good points.

TrollCapAmerica

2015-09-21, 01:18 AM

Lemme try and cover a few things here

1) You have 8 Invocations in you career many of which are highly restricted by level

2) Bladelocks unique invocations are basically feat taxes to give them a second attack and primary stat to damage and only at later levels

3) Tomellocks get BoAS because getting all rituals in the game is both unique to them and highly versatile. This makes it less of a tax and just too good to pass up while being available as your first invocation

4) Chainlocks unique invoctions are just nice to have but you dont necessarily need them. Voice just makes scouting better with your pet while Chains is basically a limited extra Mystic Arcanum

5) Bladelocks arent terrible just a niche thing and probably a better dip. It still doesnt mean your just as good as the others but better because you have fairly good melee damage as a glass cannon class

6) You get Tomelock for rituals. Your the one with the most out of combat options. You use the Cleric and Wizard lists and either of those classes w/ Ritual caster could do it too you just do it cheaper

7) Chainlock gets friggan magic resistance. Thats worth almost as much as 4 Resilient.feats. I prefer Tome but Chain is pretty wicked too

JoeJ

2015-09-21, 01:32 AM

1) Tomellocks get BoAS because getting all rituals in the game is both unique to them and highly versatile. This makes it less of a tax and just too good to pass up while being available as your first invocation

They don't get all rituals. They get two rituals with the power to gain more if and only if they find them during play. How many that will turn out to be depends on the DM.

TrollCapAmerica

2015-09-21, 01:36 AM

They don't get all rituals. They get two rituals with the power to gain more if and only if they find them during play. How many that will turn out to be depends on the DM.

Thank you Sheldon.

JoeJ

2015-09-21, 01:37 AM

Thank you Sheldon.

Who is Sheldon?

TrollCapAmerica

2015-09-21, 01:44 AM

Who is Sheldon?

Its a joke about a tertible TV show

Strill

2015-09-21, 02:02 AM

Who is Sheldon?

A pedantic autistic narcissist from this crappy tv show (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Bang_Theory).

georgie_leech

2015-09-21, 02:07 AM

In other words, they thought that pointing out that access to Rituals is DM dependent was missing the point that they have access to them at all. But come on guys, just say that instead of calling names (mild as they may be) :smallannoyed:

DivisibleByZero

2015-09-21, 07:03 AM

Name a practical difference between your "viable and fully functional melee option", and the option of making a ranged Eldritch Blast attack without disadvantage.

You're only asking for one?
Easy.
You're fighting a Rakshasa (or any other enemy that has magic immunity).
Your EB is useless. Your Pact Magic is useless. The only thing in your entire arsenal that even has a minor chance of any effect is your Mystic Arcana slots. At an appropriate level, he's even immune to your sole MA spell. If you're over level and the DM also gives him mooks to build the encounter, then you might have one single shot with a 7th level MA spell at doing anything at all to him, and he saves against that Hail Mary with Advantage.
You need a weapon to kill him.
Have fun with your 13 damage shillelagh. Oops, he's immune to Hex. Have fun with your 9 or 10 damage shillelagh. I'll take my 34 damage pact blade / short sword combo (without hex) any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
That's one practical example.

But it doesn't matter. Someone asked why some of us felt that Blade Pact was superior. I explained why I felt that way.

TopCheese

2015-09-21, 07:23 AM

I always hate how people assume dex based blade pact. Moderately Armored and GWM/Polearm Master works great with the weapon features the Warlock gains.

Logosloki

2015-09-21, 07:38 AM

Thank you Sheldon.

Sheldon would of stated that the Book of Ancient Secrets gives a Pact of tome warlock two first level spells with the ritual tag whilst holding the book in hand, allows any warlock spell with the ritual tag to be cast as a ritual.

On topic: Blade gives you or your resident martial a magic weapon (please note, a martial only gets one minute of pact of blade goodness, unless your DM allows you and the martial to be within 5ft of each other), so you always have a weapon, even if you get stripped down by a DM who likes his prison-dungeon segments or if the party has to relinquish weapons for a meeting. Blade pact invocations make you into a glass cannon melee (a rogue without defensive options) unless you Multiclass into something that gives you more armour.

Tome gives you three cantrips (Thaumaturgy, Prestidigitation and Druidcraft!) as long as you have your tome on your person (so you lose them if you lose your tome but you can always summon your book back). Technically you could let a wizard write into your tome so they have a backup spellbook (always check with your DM that your rulebender powers fly). You also get access to the book of ancient secrets invocation which turns you into an 11 year old girl (or boy) on her journey to become a ritual master, with two (two!) starter rituals.

Chain gets you access to find familiar as a ritual (not a spell) and you can mother-may-I for the top shelf familiars (I say mother-may-I because it is up to the DM whether they will listen to such a discerning and classy personage as yourself) and the ability to suck just like a beastmaster by giving up your action to allow your darling familiar to do the heavy hitting for you. Now, technically it says you give up one of your attacks, not your attack action, so if you can somehow get and extra attack you and your familiar can tag in at the same time and double team the target (always check with your DM if your rulebender powers fly).

Joe the Rat

2015-09-21, 08:07 AM

I rather got the impression people assumed strength-based as being more optimal for damage, which requires feat and invocation investment (and maybe a fighter/paladin dip) to make melee "sufficiently comparable" to EB.

Regarding healing, I suppose a tomelock could pick up spare the dying, but I'd rather throw gold at them (healing kit) rather than give up one of my three "any cantrip" selections.

Here's my takes:
Chainlock: What the beastmaster wishes he could do. You've got a right proper monster to scout, and potentially fight for you. Nothing says "ties that bind" like having a miniature representative of your patron hanging around. Possibly invisible, probably poisonous.

Tomelock: A better ritual caster than Ritual Caster. Be able to cover the basics of the other pacts (find (garden variety)familiar, shillelock), but not the cool add-ons. You get all the "evil cultist/stygian witch/mad diablerist dabbler/Miskatonic U Alumnus" tropes, save brewing potions in a cauldron. Get herbalist kit proficiency for that.

Bladelock: Be a outsider-powered gish without that tedious "devotion and worship" business. Be a Jedi, or a Sith. Be a polearm-wielding combat masochist fueled by death, or a dashing duelist dancing between ranger and rogue.

Ciraq

2015-09-21, 08:59 AM

TopCheese

2015-09-21, 09:03 AM

The biggest problem I have with this thread so far is that all of the defense for bladelocks is purely combat-oriented. Going with bladelock gives you nothing that is useful outside of combat. Chain is very useful for scouting purposes outside of combat, but does not offer a lot more than that. Tome gives you access to all rituals, and not just from one class. As for the cantrips, you would most likely already have EB, so if you take shillelagh for a melee option, you are left with two most than can be used for versatility. Personally, I find that minor illusion, prestidigitation, and mage hand are great options here.

Bladelocks still have spells and evocations. Polymorph and Alter Self alone give you out of combat utility. They also can pick up the evocation that gives them deception + other Cha skill. The Warlock is set up in such a way that their pact boons are just icing on the cake, their chassis is fine.

SharkForce

2015-09-21, 09:05 AM

You're only asking for one?
Easy.
You're fighting a Rakshasa (or any other enemy that has magic immunity).
Your EB is useless. Your Pact Magic is useless. The only thing in your entire arsenal that even has a minor chance of any effect is your Mystic Arcana slots. At an appropriate level, he's even immune to your sole MA spell. If you're over level and the DM also gives him mooks to build the encounter, then you might have one single shot with a 7th level MA spell at doing anything at all to him, and he saves against that Hail Mary with Advantage.
You need a weapon to kill him.
Have fun with your 13 damage shillelagh. Oops, he's immune to Hex. Have fun with your 9 or 10 damage shillelagh. I'll take my 34 damage pact blade / short sword combo (without hex) any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
That's one practical example.

But it doesn't matter. Someone asked why some of us felt that Blade Pact was superior. I explained why I felt that way.

rakshasas pretty much *are* the enemy that has magic immunity. unless the campaign revolves around fighting them (directly, not just dealing with all the minions their deceptions have given them), you can do just fine being somewhat less effective in a single fight, especially if that fight is against a solo rakshasa with no minions whatsoever (spoiler alert: that rakshasa just screwed up royally and is probably about to get stomped, *hard*). if the fight isn't against a solo rakshasa, well hey... you don't even have to be less effective, you just hit the minions with your perfectly functional abilities (possibly even controlling the minions into fighting the rakshasa for you).

I always hate how people assume dex based blade pact. Moderately Armored and GWM/Polearm Master works great with the weapon features the Warlock gains.

you already need a ton of ASIs to get bladelock to work best. adding on 3 feats before you can even get started isn't exactly helpful. i mean, sure, if you roll ridiculously well, then go right ahead. but for the most part, while it is certainly a nice option, needing to max out strength and charisma, *and* get a reasonably high con while still maintaining a decent dex, *and* get three feats, is not something most people are going to be able to fit in.

PoeticDwarf

2015-09-21, 09:14 AM

Longcat

2015-09-21, 09:23 AM

Lemme try and cover a few things here
7) Chainlock gets friggan magic resistance. Thats worth almost as much as 4 Resilient.feats. I prefer Tome but Chain is pretty wicked too

That requires either a house rule or an extremely lenient/gullible DM, as the Magic Resistance feature is only granted by making a deal with the familiar outside of the Chain Pact. Magic Resistance also comes with the drawback that the familiar is free to leave at any time.

TopCheese

2015-09-21, 09:50 AM

you already need a ton of ASIs to get bladelock to work best. adding on 3 feats before you can even get started isn't exactly helpful. i mean, sure, if you roll ridiculously well, then go right ahead. but for the most part, while it is certainly a nice option, needing to max out strength and charisma, *and* get a reasonably high con while still maintaining a decent dex, *and* get three feats, is not something most people are going to be able to fit in.

You need moderately armored (or MC) and GWM. Your are will hit 20, dex is a 14, cha will hit 18. Con was around 12 but my build has fiend pact so temp hp was key. I grabbed the darkvision evocation so if I want to have advantageous on my attack I can pull out that great combo.

(2d6+5+4+10 ) x3 (attack, extra attack, and bonus action from haste)

26 x 3 = 78

A.C.: 16 at worst, but this dude is more like a barbarian than a typical fighter. Hit hard and fast so they die first. Plus with the urchin background I can be a sneaky basterd (+8 isn't rogue levels but I don't need to be the best, I just need to not fail... Yay group stealth).

Misty Step also helps me get the hell away when I'm having problems HP problems. 18 cha works fine, especially in AoE spells.

So for two feats (one from V human) and typical ASI I can do a he'll of a lot of damage. This is nothing any other gish would have to deal with (feats and spreading out ASI).

Hell I could make him dex based but grab some gauntlets or a belt of giant strength.

Corey

2015-09-21, 09:53 AM

It's like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Aptest use of that metaphor I've seen in a long time!! :smallbiggrin:

You might want to edit your post, however, for things like the evocation/invocation and noon/boon typos. :smallwink:

TopCheese

2015-09-21, 09:55 AM

Aptest use of that metaphor I've seen in a long time!! :smallbiggrin:

You might want to edit your post, however, for things like the evocation/invocation and noon/boon typos. :smallwink:

I blame my use of the 4E Warden recently (evocations) and the fact I'm on a new phone and boon becomes noon (by autocorrect or thumb placement).

MaxWilson

2015-09-21, 09:58 AM

Thanks guys for the help guys but with the party not having a full time healer i think i need to pick the tome

Bear in mind that, when it comes to rituals, you have no way to acquire them except by killing clerics/wizards/bards and taking their spell books (prayer books?). Wizards get 2 spells every time they level up and clerics just flat out get everything automatically, but warlocks rely on finding spells in treasure.

Edit: oh, wow, apparently I'm beating a dead horse. Should have read the whole thread first.

SharkForce

2015-09-21, 09:59 AM

TopCheese

2015-09-21, 10:10 AM

you listed 3 feats. and when you're trying to get 3 attributes as high as possible, even 2 is pretty rough.

this guy isn't really much like a barbarian at all. barbarians have a much bigger hit die and on-demand resistance to damage. this guy doesn't have nearly as good tools to survive in melee as a barbarian does (and being able to run away from melee is not terribly helpful when your goal is to stay in melee in the first place).

I listed 2 feats. One which is from human.

My build (that I ran in a 1 shot) has Moderately Armored and GWM.

Also, the reason why this character is like a barbarian is because of the "kill them before they kill you" mentality. I didn't say they were as tough, though temp HP helps, but they work off the same principal.

But if, as a player, you decide to mix it up, you can always play like a caster.

Vogonjeltz

2015-09-21, 04:13 PM

Im currently making a half-elf (drow) warlock and i have had a bit of trouble choosing a boon and not sure which one i should pick.

If you don't plan to take the attack action hardly ever, I'd go with Book myself. I'm just not that interested in the familiar route.

Bladelock is the sub-optimal choice but not by a massive margin like Beastermaster Champ etc. Chain is as good as the bonus you get from your familiar and hey look cool Hold Monster. Tome exists to get every ritual in the game on a class with a normally horribly limited spell list. The best of which are probably Cleric Divination spells along with things like find familiar water breathing Lemonds tiny hut or Rarys telepathic bond

Champion actually is optimal for sustained dpr.

TopCheese

2015-09-21, 04:20 PM

If you don't plan to take the attack action hardly ever, I'd go with Book myself. I'm just not that interested in the familiar route.

Champion actually is optimal for sustained dpr.

Yes and no. I'm theory, yes, but in actual gameplay where options are being used to stop the champion from doing things? Not so much. The champion is very susceptible to many things that cut down their DPR that other classes have answers to.

Some sort of magical darkness or heavy obscuring stuff? Champion doesn't have an option to get rid of it and can only move to get out (which they can't see to get out so...). Whereas other classes have stuff like *super darkvision invocation*, *reckless attack* (negates disadvantage), or *spell to remove the issue or remove self from issue*. And for the soells, well, even if you take them away they are just as effective with aoe damaging spells as they don't need to specifically target anything.

The Warlock has two very popular options for getting out of effects that hinder DPR. Super darkvision invocation and misty step. Actually, depending on spell choice, they do just fine while in the hindering effect.

JNAProductions

2015-09-21, 04:23 PM

TopCheese

2015-09-21, 05:04 PM

I believe he meant Champion is the optimal Fighter Archetype for DPR, not the universal king.

Though of course Schrodinger's Warlock beats the Champion Fighter. Though what happens if he gets grappled and knocked prone? That's something a Fighter can easily deal with (and have several attacks left over to do things with) but a Bladelock will have trouble with.

It isn't even just the Warlock, pretty much everyone (class) has something to counter/resist issues that routinely come up that the champion doesn't. The champion can't, idk, save a darkness spell away (though it would be cool if they could).

You can't sustain DPR if you can't get to the enemy or deal with issues that arise. Sure the champion can rely on team mates but then the chapion doesn't really have the best consistent DPR, the *team mate* using their pet champion has the highest sustained DPR.

JNAProductions

2015-09-21, 05:07 PM

TopCheese

2015-09-21, 06:48 PM

And you can't sustain good DPR with disadvantage from being prone and grappled.

Really, the take-away from that is that the Champion makes a great beatstick for a team. Yes, they need help to be the best they can be, but everyone else needs their help to actually kill stuff. Mutual benefits, not one greater than the other.

Edit: To try to stay on topic, I'd say Tome or Blade. Tome for optimization, Blade for fun! Bladelock is good fun, it's just usually not the best choice.

On topic.

Another reason to go Str bladelock, pick up a thug background (athletics and stealth) and then you are decent at stealth and just as good as any martial at athletics (besides rogue). Better actually as you still have spells and invocations to boost your abilities (cast confusion or misty step of grappled).

The strength base bladelock is a pretty darn good choice

High sustained damage, defense, utility, and able to mix it up.

Sigreid

2015-09-21, 10:36 PM

The biggest problem I have with this thread so far is that all of the defense for bladelocks is purely combat-oriented. Going with bladelock gives you nothing that is useful outside of combat. Chain is very useful for scouting purposes outside of combat, but does not offer a lot more than that. Tome gives you access to all rituals, and not just from one class. As for the cantrips, you would most likely already have EB, so if you take shillelagh for a melee option, you are left with two most than can be used for versatility. Personally, I find that minor illusion, prestidigitation, and mage hand are great options here.

Well, seeing as to how nearly all weapons grew out of tools, and the warlock's pact blade can be any weapon, it's not a stretch to say a pact blade warlock can use his class feature to produce a weapon that will do the job of many, many tools if needed. Pry bar, axe, knife, pick, and hammer are just a few of the possibilities.

MaxWilson

2015-09-21, 11:25 PM

Malifice

2015-09-21, 11:58 PM

rakshasas pretty much *are* the enemy that has magic immunity. unless the campaign revolves around fighting them (directly, not just dealing with all the minions their deceptions have given them), you can do just fine being somewhat less effective in a single fight, especially if that fight is against a solo rakshasa with no minions whatsoever (spoiler alert: that rakshasa just screwed up royally and is probably about to get stomped, *hard*). if the fight isn't against a solo rakshasa, well hey... you don't even have to be less effective, you just hit the minions with your perfectly functional abilities (possibly even controlling the minions into fighting the rakshasa for you).

you already need a ton of ASIs to get bladelock to work best. adding on 3 feats before you can even get started isn't exactly helpful. i mean, sure, if you roll ridiculously well, then go right ahead. but for the most part, while it is certainly a nice option, needing to max out strength and charisma, *and* get a reasonably high con while still maintaining a decent dex, *and* get three feats, is not something most people are going to be able to fit in.

Actually you can dump DEX and INT down to 8 if you want tas a STR based lock. Start Fighter, wear heavy armor. Human, GWM. Str and cha 16. Switch to lock at 2nd and ride it out to 6th for 3rd level spells and thirsting blade.

Junp back to fighter for 2 more for action surge and 4 manouvers per short rest to go with your short rest spells, then it's warlock all the way to 20th

Drackolus

2015-09-22, 01:53 PM

If you really feel like your group needs healing, taking a level in life cleric is a good idea. A 5th level cure wounds by such a character (using a warlock slot) will heal for 5d8+7+wis. Take magic initiate:druid for goodberry to get 10 free berries that heal 4 hp apiece. Not to mention heavy armor prof. Then if you go blade, you basically have all weapon proficiencies, so if you wanted to be a str warlock that's a great route to take. Or, if you go tome, you can take some added utility. You'll need an okay wisdom though (14 or 16) for this to work efficiently. 20 is definitely not required though. You miss out on the warlock capstone, but how likely are you to get to 20 anyway?

You could also dip into favored soul, picking life. You'd miss out on the +7 to the healing, meaning it may take more spells to get the job done. But, you'd have the benefit of only needing charisma, which should mitigate the issue somewhat. You could also then go three levels in to get spiritual weapon, which gives you awesome bonus action economy, and it synergizes awesomely with hex+EB. It even strikes on the turn you cast it, so you can do hex+eb first round, then spiritual weapon+eb every other round. Spiritual weapon also scales very well with level, making it a great spell for warlocks in general. And that's not even to mention the awesome bonuses for being a sorcerer, namely metamagic. Of course, you need DM approval to do favored soul. Then I'd think tome would be the obvious choice.

JakOfAllTirades

2015-09-23, 11:20 AM

On topic: Blade gives you or your resident martial a magic weapon (please note, a martial only gets one minute of pact of blade goodness, unless your DM allows you and the martial to be within 5ft of each other), so you always have a weapon, even if you get stripped down by a DM who likes his prison-dungeon segments or if the party has to relinquish weapons for a meeting. Blade pact invocations make you into a glass cannon melee (a rogue without defensive options) unless you Multiclass into something that gives you more armour.

Regarding the Blade Pact: I've played a single-classed BladeLock up through 10th level (nearly 11th now) I've found this isn't necessarily the whole story. It's true, a single class BladeLock isn't really a front-line fighter - they play more like a rogue, but they are far from lacking in defensive options; their spell list provides them with some good defenses in combat. I use Armor of Agathys, Blink, Darkness, Mirror Image, and Greater Invisibility (Fey Pact) to protect myself, and I've come through a lot of fights almost unscathed. I don't use all of them at once - my spell slots are limited - but any one of the above will often be enough to get me through. If I forego Hex, I can cast two during an encounter.

And of course, all Warlocks get Misty Escape, which is a fairly good defense option. It doesn't prevent damage - you have to get hit to activate it - but then you've got a free 60 foot teleport and temporary invisibility. Actually, I tend to use those offensively; my character is a bit reckless. Toujours l'audace!

TopCheese

2015-09-23, 02:29 PM

Regarding the Blade Pact: I've played a single-classed BladeLock up through 10th level (nearly 11th now) I've found this isn't necessarily the whole story. It's true, a single class BladeLock isn't really a front-line fighter - they play more like a rogue, but they are far from lacking in defensive options; their spell list provides them with some good defenses in combat. I use Armor of Agathys, Blink, Darkness, Mirror Image, and Greater Invisibility (Fey Pact) to protect myself, and I've come through a lot of fights almost unscathed. I don't use all of them at once - my spell slots are limited - but any one of the above will often be enough to get me through. If I forego Hex, I can cast two during an encounter.

And of course, all Warlocks get Misty Escape, which is a fairly good defense option. It doesn't prevent damage - you have to get hit to activate it - but then you've got a free 60 foot teleport and temporary invisibility. Actually, I tend to use those offensively; my character is a bit reckless. Toujours l'audace!

The name for the Invocation that gives proficiency in Deception and Persuion should be called "Jack of All Tirades".

Vogonjeltz

2015-09-23, 04:05 PM

Yes and no. I'm theory, yes, but in actual gameplay where options are being used to stop the champion from doing things? Not so much. The champion is very susceptible to many things that cut down their DPR that other classes have answers to.

Some sort of magical darkness or heavy obscuring stuff? Champion doesn't have an option to get rid of it and can only move to get out (which they can't see to get out so...). Whereas other classes have stuff like *super darkvision invocation*, *reckless attack* (negates disadvantage), or *spell to remove the issue or remove self from issue*. And for the soells, well, even if you take them away they are just as effective with aoe damaging spells as they don't need to specifically target anything.

The Warlock has two very popular options for getting out of effects that hinder DPR. Super darkvision invocation and misty step. Actually, depending on spell choice, they do just fine while in the hindering effect.

Magical darkness in actual gameplay requires concentration, so it's A) easy to end and B) stops that enemy from doing something useful, it also has the incredibly small radius of 15 feet, so it's simple to walk out of. Being in darkness has absolutely no mechanical restrictions on movement, so...

That is a good thing to be aware of though, darkness is (for everyone but the Warlock who has the right invocation) basically a bad spell as it hinders all the other classes (Barbarian is, at best, breaking even; vs an opponent capable of seeing in magical darkness, he's still worse off).

TopCheese

2015-09-23, 04:23 PM

Magical darkness in actual gameplay requires concentration, so it's A) easy to end and B) stops that enemy from doing something useful, it also has the incredibly small radius of 15 feet, so it's simple to walk out of. Being in darkness has absolutely no mechanical restrictions on movement, so...

That is a good thing to be aware of though, darkness is (for everyone but the Warlock who has the right invocation) basically a bad spell as it hinders all the other classes (Barbarian is, at best, breaking even; vs an opponent capable of seeing in magical darkness, he's still worse off).

Easy to end on a Warlock? If you can find him then sure end the concentration.

The Warlock can still shoot out of the darkness and gain advantage in their bolts, not a lot of creatures gain AoE spells and if they do it is attack the one chick in the darkness or the three others attacking...

Or darkness + misty step = enemies targeting darkness when no one is there...

So many options and combos. Warlocks are downright nasty.

Note: Friend using Web/grease and Warlock using Hunger of Hadar is just fricken nasty.

Citan

2015-09-23, 04:39 PM

Im currently making a half-elf (drow) warlock and i have had a bit of trouble choosing a boon and not sure which one i should pick.
All three are good choices, more on it in an instant.
For starter though

The general consensus on this forum seems to be Blade. IDK why though.
Please don't believe this post, there is absolutely no "general consensus" on Blade being the best choice. Precisely because each Pact offers a very different playstyle, so depends on what you want to play and what your party is.
Also...

Most analysis I have read paints tome as the best overall choice, with chain a distant second (you can get most the benefits from a regular familiar) and blade only for niche, usually multiclass, builds
That's very far-stretched: unless your DM is lenient on what familiar you can take with the Find Familiar ritual, it's far far behind the bonded creature from the pact, which has very powerful built-in abilities and can be empowered with Invocations.

Tome is good, but most of it is either "why bother" (cantrips) or replicated closely by a feat (ritual casting).

That's really only your opinion, very far from truth...
Apart from the fact that Tome is the way to get a few of the best cantrips in all classes (Shillelagh, Thorn Whip, Guidance, Produce Flame), it allows you to learn rituals from all classes and make no requirement on casting stat to do so.

So... Basically.
Blade: good if you want to go melee (perfect if you lack striker).
Tome: good if you lack spellcasters in your party (if your DM is reasonably nice, you'll be able to learn some rituals that are very valuable for any party) OR you just love being versatile OR you fancy a particular cantrip: no Cleric? Guidance. Want to go weapon attack but low STR/DEX? Take Shillelagh or Magic Stone (although it's a pain to use this one) to have a decent weapon attack (it will still be a last resort though unless you multiclass around to at least get Extra Attack and even still you won't be as good as "true" warriors).
So, can be useless to extra good depending on what you aim for and your DM.

Chain: it's always good to have a powerful pet with you (if only for spellcasting or invisibility and shared magic resistance), even if you don't take related Invocation. Although I see no reason not to.. Perfect if there is no scout, and nevertheless a solid choice for any build...

>>> Chain is (only slightly) superior to others if you don't have any specific role or build in mind, because it's straightforward to use, doesn't depend on DM nor on planning. Otherwise, just pick the one you deem the closest to how you want to play, none is a bad choice, all are good choices... :) (I personally take Tome when in doubt, because "in case of I can learn awesome rituals", but that's juste my taste).

EDIT: Divisible made the case about Bladelock. Someone else (sorry missed the name) lined out Chain uses in this thread. For Tome, if you want to get an idea of Ritual usefulness, check this guide (http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4149206) (save it since forum closes next month).

Magical darkness in actual gameplay requires concentration, so it's A) easy to end and B) stops that enemy from doing something useful, it also has the incredibly small radius of 15 feet, so it's simple to walk out of. Being in darkness has absolutely no mechanical restrictions on movement, so...

Don't entirely agree with you. Although indeed, after double-check, you cannot just cast Darkness on an armor worn by enemy for example.
However, there are ways to make the darkness "stick" with the moving enemy, the most obvious one being with a familiar. Cast Darkness "on an object you are holding", then give it to the familiar and order it to move as needed to follow the enemy. A bit tedious but should work (should also work with Mage Hand but it eats your bonus action, not sure it's worth it). :)

JakOfAllTirades

2015-09-23, 05:08 PM

Easy to end on a Warlock? If you can find him then sure end the concentration.

The Warlock can still shoot out of the darkness and gain advantage in their bolts, not a lot of creatures gain AoE spells and if they do it is attack the one chick in the darkness or the three others attacking...

Or darkness + misty step = enemies targeting darkness when no one is there...

So many options and combos. Warlocks are downright nasty.

Note: Friend using Web/grease and Warlock using Hunger of Hadar is just fricken nasty.

A combo I've found particularly effective is Darkness and Blink (plus the Devil's Sight Invocation so I can always see). I discussed this one with my DM before using it; your DM might disagree on how it works. Anyway, I cast Darkness on my pact blade, so it's centered on me. Then I cast Blink, which doesn't require concentration. On any round when I blink out, the darkness field blinks out with me, and doesn't hinder my allies. This also makes it difficult for enemies to hit me and spoil my concentration. Then on my next turn, I blink back in, and so does the darkness field. Of course there's that 50/50 chance I don't blink out but then I've still got a darkness field protecting me. My allies find it a nuisance but if it's going to completely shut them down, I don't use that combo at all.

The other thing I like about the Blink spell is, after blinking you get to reappear up to 10 feet from your last location: free movement! You can never have too much of that when you're playing a BladeLock.

TopCheese

2015-09-23, 05:12 PM

A combo I've found particularly effective is Darkness and Blink (plus the Devil's Sight Invocation so I can always see). I discussed this one with my DM before using it; your DM might disagree on how it works. Anyway, I cast Darkness on my pact blade, so it's centered on me. Then I cast Blink, which doesn't require concentration. On any round when I blink out, the darkness field blinks out with me, and doesn't hinder my allies. This also makes it difficult for enemies to hit me and spoil my concentration. Then on my next turn, I blink back in, and so does the darkness field. Of course there's that 50/50 chance I don't blink out but then I've still got a darkness field protecting me. My allies find it a nuisance but if it's going to completely shut them down, I don't use that combo at all.

The other thing I like about the Blink spell is, after blinking you get to reappear up to 10 feet from your last location: free movement! You can never have too much of that when you're playing a BladeLock.

Well I know what I'm doing for my friend's next one shot.

JakOfAllTirades

2015-09-23, 05:34 PM

Well I know what I'm doing for my friend's next one shot.

Heh. I'd like to hear how that works out for you.

Malifice

2015-09-23, 09:05 PM

Easy to end on a Warlock? If you can find him then sure end the concentration.

If he doesnt take the hide action (and roll well), then I can target him (with disadvantage) all day long.

Same deal if he's invisible.

The Warlock can still shoot out of the darkness and gain advantage in their bolts, not a lot of creatures gain AoE spells and if they do it is attack the one chick in the darkness or the three others attacking...

Why? Youre only blinded when youre in the darkness. Creatures on the outside can defend themselves just fine.

Or darkness + misty step = enemies targeting darkness when no one is there...

It doesnt work that way. Barring you taking the hide action, your enemies are generally assumed to know where you are. Misty step, darkness, invisibility or whatever.

JakOfAllTirades

2015-09-24, 02:03 AM

If he doesnt take the hide action (and roll well), then I can target him (with disadvantage) all day long.

Same deal if he's invisible.

Why? Youre only blinded when youre in the darkness. Creatures on the outside can defend themselves just fine.

It doesnt work that way. Barring you taking the hide action, your enemies are generally assumed to know where you are. Misty step, darkness, invisibility or whatever.

So a Warlock teleports out of a Darkness field, using a power that simultaneously turns him Invisible, (Misty Escape does that, you know) and his opponents are still gonna know exactly where he is?

I'm calling shenanigans.

Malifice

2015-09-24, 03:36 AM

So a Warlock teleports out of a Darkness field, using a power that simultaneously turns him Invisible, (Misty Escape does that, you know) and his opponents are still gonna know exactly where he is?

I'm calling shenanigans.

Unless he takes the Hide action, generally yes. The can hear him with enough precision to launch an attack into his square (at disadvantage).

Thats what the hide action does. Read invisibility. It doesnt make you automatially hidden; it just provides the conditions necessary to enable the HIde check.

TopCheese

2015-09-24, 07:34 AM

Unless he takes the Hide action, generally yes. The can hear him with enough precision to launch an attack into his square (at disadvantage).

Thats what the hide action does. Read invisibility. It doesnt make you automatially hidden; it just provides the conditions necessary to enable the HIde check.

You can't target what you can't see. You would have to guess which location they are in. That isn't disadvantage on your roll, that is "IF you pick the right space then it is disadvantage".

Darkness is that powerful, especially on the Warlock that can still target you while in said darkness. The Warlock isn't just standing there letting you wail in him, you are getting blasted in the face (or other spell to the face).

Malifice

2015-09-24, 08:00 AM

You can't target what you can't see. You would have to guess which location they are in. That isn't disadvantage on your roll, that is "IF you pick the right space then it is disadvantage".

Darkness is that powerful, especially on the Warlock that can still target you while in said darkness. The Warlock isn't just standing there letting you wail in him, you are getting blasted in the face (or other spell to the face).

Nope. Read invisibility. It does nothing of the sort.

If you're invisible I can Attack you unless you first hide via the hide action. All invisibility does is allow you the hide action. It doesn't make you auto hidden.

I can attack you while you're invisible and not hidden. I know what square you're in as I can hear you. Being 'hidden' as per the PHB is being unseen AND unheard (and takes an action). Simply casting invisibility doesn't make you hidden. I can still target you with attacks (at disadvantage though) by targetting your square (no guess required unless you take the hide action).

Malifice

2015-09-24, 08:10 AM

You're forgetting the stealth skill is both Hide and Move silently.

Being invisible does not render you to all senses. Just sight. That's why you need to take the Hide action to conceal your location when invisible.

If you succeed, THEN they can't attack you without a lucky guess or after using the Search action to find you.

You're making invisibility and darkness OP for spells of their level. As in better than mirror image, blur and foresight all rolled into one.

If you want to try and hide every round while invisible and still attacl or cast a spell, dip Rogue. The skulker feat also comes in handy.

TopCheese

2015-09-24, 08:34 AM

Malifice

2015-09-24, 08:59 AM

A heavily obscured area—such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see appendix A) when trying to see something in that area. The presence or absence of light in an environment creates three categories of illumination: bright light, dim
light, and darkness.

Unseen Attackers and Targets
"When you attack a target that you can’t see, you have disadvantage on the attack roll. This is true whether you’re guessing the target’s location or you’re targeting a
creature you can hear but not see. If the target isn’t in the location you targeted, you automatically miss, but the DM typically just says that the attack missed, not whether you
guessed the target’s location correctly."

***

Just because you can hear a creature doesn't mean you aren't guessing their location. To attack someone that you can't see you need to guess where they are (or else this wouldn't ever be in the rules cause you either always know people are there OR you never know people are there...) if you can't see them. Sure you know they are somewhere due to hearing but you can't pin point yhem and have to guess where they are.

With the way you want to do things is that being heavily obscured had no meaning in the game. The blinded condition means jothing, because you can just walk around listening to things.

That's times for specific characters but doesn't work raw or rai.

NOTHING in what you quote above tells me I need to guess (a creature I can't see) location in order to target it. It does tell me how I can target a hidden creature though (by guessing).

I only need to guess his location if he is hidden from me. Hidden is defined as (according to the PHB) 'unseen AND unheard'. It also requires the Hide action first.

On your turn you go invisible and then walk away. On my turn I walk over to you and smack you in the head (at disadvantage because I'm not entire sure where you are). Remember - While it looks stop/ start due to the cyclic nature of combat, I'm really following you closely.

If you want to become invisible AND hide in the same turn, or Attack AND hide in the same turn, you need cunning action. That's whether you're invisible, standing in darkness or behind a pillar.

If you're not hidden (via the hide action) it's presumed you're making no effort to keep quiet, or otherwise conceal your passing (foot steps and foot prints, jangling of armor and gear, smell of your sweat and spell components etc). I can target you (with disadvantage).

You're reading the rules wrong and making a 2nd level spell (that is already potent enough via granting advantage on attacks, disadvantage against you and allowing a hide check at will) more potent than foresight.

TopCheese

2015-09-24, 09:06 AM

NOTHING in what you quote above tells me I need to guess (a creature I can't see) location in order to target it. It does tell me how I can target a hidden creature though (by guessing).

I only need to guess his location if he is hidden from me. Hidden is defined as (according to the PHB) 'unseen AND unheard'. It also requires the Hide action first.

On your turn you go invisible and then walk away. On my turn I walk over to you and smack you in the head (at disadvantage because I'm not entire sure where you are). Remember - While it looks stop/ start due to the cyclic nature of combat, I'm really following you closely.

If you want to become invisible AND hide in the same turn, or Attack AND hide in the same turn, you need cunning action. That's whether you're invisible, standing in darkness or behind a pillar.

If you're not hidden (via the hide action) it's presumed you're making no effort to keep quiet, or otherwise conceal your passing (foot steps and foot prints, jangling of armor and gear, smell of your sweat and spell components etc). I can target you (with disadvantage).

You're reading the rules wrong and making a 2nd level spell (that is already potent enough via granting advantage on attacks, disadvantage against you and allowing a hide check at will) more potent than foresight.

So using common sense in a game that uses plain English and relies on both is doing it wrong? Wow...

Have fun with that

Malifice

2015-09-24, 09:34 AM

So using common sense in a game that uses plain English and relies on both is doing it wrong? Wow...

Have fun with that

I do. Just pointing out that invisibility doesnt work like you think it does.

Darkness + devils sight is still a nice combo (adv on attacks v blinded creatures, and disadv on all return attacks) but it isnt as game breakingly OP as you think it is.

Unsurprisingly given its available on a Warlock at 3rd level.

If you really want to take advantage of it, dip Rogue 2 for cunning action and expertise in stealth.

CNagy

2015-09-24, 10:24 AM

The Warlock gets advantage against more than just the blinded: any attacks coming from the darkness gain advantage against creatures who can't see the Warlock through the darkness. "When a creature can’t see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard-- when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."

JakOfAllTirades

2015-09-24, 11:31 AM

I do. Just pointing out that invisibility doesnt work like you think it does.

Darkness + devils sight is still a nice combo (adv on attacks v blinded creatures, and disadv on all return attacks) but it isnt as game breakingly OP as you think it is.

Unsurprisingly given its available on a Warlock at 3rd level.

If you really want to take advantage of it, dip Rogue 2 for cunning action and expertise in stealth.

It's not game-breaking, but it shouldn't be nerfed into uselessness either. The Invisible condition provides heavy obscurement, and it says "The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves."

Note the important word: "CAN be detected". It doesn't say "WILL be detected.

There's no automatic guarantee, as you seem to think, that an Invisible creature's location will automatically be known to everyone, for some reason. That's what the Perception skill is for, if I'm not mistaken.

Malifice

2015-09-24, 01:07 PM

It's not game-breaking, but it shouldn't be nerfed into uselessness either. The Invisible condition provides heavy obscurement, and it says "The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves."

I dont consider a spell that grants all the utility and awesomeness of invisibility 'nerfed into all uselessness' by virtue of not granting it an infinite steath check and hiding as a free action.

If thats what it was supposed to do (as a 2nd level spell) then thats what it would say it does. It doesnt. It just grants the precondition (heavy obscurement) to enable the Hide action all the time, every time.

The Hide action still takes an action (or a bonus action if youre a Rogue) and requires a Stealth check (move silently) opposed by the Passive perception check of obervers. Roll well and youre not able to be targetted (barring a lucky guess) unless your enemies succeed in the Search action to find you.

That is not 'nerfed into all uselessness' It is an amazing ability for a spell available at 3rd level.

Place it on an Arcane Trickster or a Rogue/ Wizard and its absolutely devastating.

Note the important word: "CAN be detected". It doesn't say "WILL be detected.

Yeah, can be detected. You will be dectected unless you makes some effort to conceal your presence further. In other words you take the Hide action. Being invisible is no different to being behind total cover (and not taking the hide action) in that sense.

There's no automatic guarantee, as you seem to think, that an Invisible creature's location will automatically be known to everyone, for some reason.

Im not saying there is an automatic guarantee. The invisible creature can take advantage of its invisibility and attempt to Hide (move silently). It makes a stealth check and compares this result to the passive perception scores of creatures around it. If it succeeds its location is no longer known, and it sets the DC of perception checks via the Search action to find the hidden invisible creature.

That's what the Perception skill is for, if I'm not mistaken.

Yep. Its what the stealth skill is for too. When youre invisible, they cant 'spot' you (although they can notice other signs of your passing), but they can 'listen' for you just fine, and are assumed (subject to DM discretion) to be able to hear you/ smell you/ notice your location well enough to be able to attack you (at disadvantage). Generaly (in darkness) the eldritch blasts/ arrows flying out on a certain angle are enough for a pretty good idea of where you are. Enough to enable an attack roll (at disadvantage) to a trained combatant anyway.

If you want to hide (i.e. to set a DC for a perception check to find you) you need to take the Hide action. Being invisible is really handy here as it lets you take the hide action whenever you want (although it is still an action). This is in addition to its other amazing benefits (advantage on attacks, disadvantage on return attacks, inability to be targeted by anything that expressly requires LOS).

JakOfAllTirades

2015-09-24, 02:51 PM

Finally found the relevant rules for Hiding, in a box-out on p177 of the PHB. It didn't help that the rules for light and vision are on p183, unseen targets are on p194, and the invisibility condition is on p291.

Anyway, I get what you're saying.

And whoever laid out this book needs a wedgie. Had to reference 3 chapters and an appendix to sort this out. :mad:

Vogonjeltz

2015-09-24, 04:20 PM

You can't target what you can't see. You would have to guess which location they are in. That isn't disadvantage on your roll, that is "IF you pick the right space then it is disadvantage".

Darkness is that powerful, especially on the Warlock that can still target you while in said darkness. The Warlock isn't just standing there letting you wail in him, you are getting blasted in the face (or other spell to the face).

You only have to guess if you don't know its location. If you can hear the creature you know its location. So a Warlock in Darkness who is NOT hiding via a Dexterity (stealth) check has their location known, but can not be seen. Disadvantage on the attack against them applies.

What a Warlock could do is cast darkness on the enemy, then sneak behind something that provides heavily obscured cover (i.e. move 1/2 speed making a Dexterity (stealth) check to not be heard) and on their next turn take the hide action (another Dexterity (stealth) check). So, assuming the enemy left the darkness on their own turn, they wouldn't automatically (Wisdom (perception) score) see the Warlock and they hopefully wouldn't have heard (Wisdom (perception) score vs that first stealth check) them move.

JakOfAllTirades

2015-09-24, 05:07 PM

You only have to guess if you don't know its location. If you can hear the creature you know its location. So a Warlock in Darkness who is NOT hiding via a Dexterity (stealth) check has their location known, but can not be seen. Disadvantage on the attack against them applies.

What a Warlock could do is cast darkness on the enemy, then sneak behind something that provides heavily obscured cover (i.e. move 1/2 speed making a Dexterity (stealth) check to not be heard) and on their next turn take the hide action (another Dexterity (stealth) check). So, assuming the enemy left the darkness on their own turn, they wouldn't automatically (Wisdom (perception) score) see the Warlock and they hopefully wouldn't have heard (Wisdom (perception) score vs that first stealth check) them move.

Okay, this all follows RAW to the letter, but it's also exactly what I mean by "nerfed into uselessness." By the time you've gone through all this, I wouldn't be surprised if the combat is half over. At best, if you do this every time you want to avoid detection, you'll spend half the combat sneaking around instead of going after the enemy. I can hear my gaming group now; "Hey, quit fooling around and get in the fight, you!"

<shrug> Warlocks aren't Rogues. For my purposes, having advantage on my attacks while giving the enemy disadvantage to attack me is good enough. I'll just turn Invisible, or cast Darkness on myself, and have at them. They're going to pay if they hit me, either by Armor of Agathys or Hellish Rebuke.
Ice or Fire....

Malifice

2015-09-24, 08:26 PM

Okay, this all follows RAW to the letter, but it's also exactly what I mean by "nerfed into uselessness." By the time you've gone through all this, I wouldn't be surprised if the combat is half over. At best, if you do this every time you want to avoid detection, you'll spend half the combat sneaking around instead of going after the enemy. I can hear my gaming group now; "Hey, quit fooling around and get in the fight, you!"

<shrug> Warlocks aren't Rogues. For my purposes, having advantage on my attacks while giving the enemy disadvantage to attack me is good enough. I'll just turn Invisible, or cast Darkness on myself, and have at them. They're going to pay if they hit me, either by Armor of Agathys or Hellish Rebuke.
Ice or Fire....

You only need the one Stealth check via the Hide action. Then your opponent needs to beat it with a Perception check via the Search action.

You can also start the encounter hidden. As soon as you attack though you reveal yourself.

If you want to be a stealth monkey, expertise in stealth and cunning action is the way to go. Couple it with invisbility, and your foes have to constantly either waste actions trying to find you (against a massive DC) or guess your location.

JakOfAllTirades

2015-09-25, 01:48 AM

You only need the one Stealth check via the Hide action. Then your opponent needs to beat it with a Perception check via the Search action.

You can also start the encounter hidden. As soon as you attack though you reveal yourself.

Yeah, that's where it becomes a problem. Once you're revealed you have to go through the whole business again if you don't want to be targeted. This could end up costing a lot of actions better spent swinging your pact blade or casting spells.

If you want to be a stealth monkey, expertise in stealth and cunning action is the way to go. Couple it with invisbility, and your foes have to constantly either waste actions trying to find you (against a massive DC) or guess your location.

To multi-class or not multi-class? I wasn't going to, but then I found the Swashbuckler Rogue variant. It's got excellent synergy with the BladeLock, so I think after I've got my level 12 Invocation (Life Drinker!) I might try that.

Malifice

2015-09-25, 02:00 AM

Yeah, that's where it becomes a problem. Once you're revealed you have to go through the whole business again if you don't want to be targeted. This could end up costing a lot of actions better spent swinging your pact blade or casting spells.

Thats what makes cunning action so amazing. It can be all yours for a 2 level dip. As an added bonus you get expertise in stealth to go along with it.

To multi-class or not multi-class? I wasn't going to, but then I found the Swashbuckler Rogue variant. It's got excellent synergy with the BladeLock, so I think after I've got my level 12 Invocation (Life Drinker!) I might try that.

I like 'lock 17/ BM fighter 3.

Fighter at 1st (heavy armor, con saves, HP, second wind, F/S). Dump Dex and Int to 8. Pump Str and Cha. Pack a heavy weapon + GWM. Then go 'lock for 5 (for 3rds and thirsting blade). Back to BM fighter for levels 7 and 8 (action surge, sup dice, manouvers) then lock all the way to 20th.

Fiend pact, natch.

Dont forget to call yourself 'Elric', go CN in alignment, be an albino half elf, take GWM feat and have your pact weapon be a black rune encrusted greatword. Find and use Stormbring... umm.. Blackrazor for extra points.

CNagy

2015-09-25, 07:10 AM

This seems like a lot of unnecessary trouble. It's combat; kill them before they kill you. Hiding in combat should have niche application--the real big deal in combat is maintaining unseen status; advantage against everyone you attack, disadvantage for anyone who attacks you. The Rogue needs to hide because typically he can't generate his own obscurement (to say nothing of seeing through it) and if not hidden would have to walk back into view to make an attack from behind hard cover, but we're talking about Warlocks.

Malifice

2015-09-25, 07:13 AM

JakOfAllTirades

2015-09-25, 12:32 PM

Huh? Im not sure what this means?

It means BladeLocks don't need to fight like Rogues, and really shouldn't; their fighting style is completely different. Once they've got the whole advantage/disadvantage thing going, that's good enough; hiding is superfluous. Unlike Rogues, there are times BladeLocks actually want to take a hit: Armor of Agathys, Hellish Rebuke, Fire Shield, etc. When I've got Mirror Image up, I deliberately draw opportunity attacks to make openings for my team mates. (Rogues generally don't do that sort of thing.)

That's not to say I wouldn't MC into Rogue; I'm the party's "face man" when we're not in combat and I'd really like to have expertise in Deception and Persuasion. And the Swashbuckler subclass gets to add CHA to Initiative checks. Yes, please!