Rate this Varient Vow of Poverty?

[SangoProduction]

OK. So we know VoP kinda (well, really) sucks. I found a homebrew version. Does it seem decent enough without....well...being stupid good? (I am an absolutely terrible judge of balance, is why I am asking.)
Also, assume you don't try to abuse poor wording. (Like Stigmata, which I can't seem to edit for some reason.)

http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Variant_Vow_of_Poverty_(3.5e_Feat)

[Kelb_Panthera]

A link would be nice.

[SangoProduction]

A link would be nice.

Oh holy derp. lol

[OldTrees1]

Criticisms:
1) One would have to wait until 9th level to get flight(so 3 levels of being unable to reasonably participate in some combats) and then only at the 6th level grade(see Dragonborn/Raptorian).

2) At you have to wait until 17th level to get 1 of Death Ward, real Flight, Freedom of Movement, Mind Blank, or True Seeing. With the exception of Mind Blank, these are all way past due. Since you had to wait until 17th level you will only get 2 of these 5 necessary effects.

One good way of going about this would be:
1) Figure out what gear a 20th level Fighter would need/have to be able to reasonable participate in standard 20th level encounters (sticking to general gear and trying to stick to passive benefits).
2) Squeeze as much of that wealth into a 6th and 12th level's WBL.
3) Plan with those gear loads in mind.

If I remember I will reply again with an example gear load that runs out of things to buy under 20th WBL.

[SangoProduction]

Good DMs wouldn't give encounters in which characters have nothing to do but go twiddle their thumbs, but it's a reasonable complaint.

And I agree that level 17 is quite a deal too late for most things. But they are permanent.

Do you have any suggestions?

(Gear has always been something I've never gotten the hang of. Just so much there. Not even the vastness of the sea of useless feats comes close to matching the sea of useless gear.)

[ngilop]

Good DMs wouldn't give encounters in which characters have nothing to do but go twiddle their thumbs, but it's a reasonable complaint.

And I agree that level 17 is quite a deal too late for most things. But they are permanent.

Do you have any suggestions?

(Gear has always been something I've never gotten the hang of. Just so much there. Not even the vastness of the sea of useless feats comes close to matching the sea of useless gear.)

Take a look at Kenneth's Vop fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12433473&postcount=15). Its the best VoP I have ever encountered on this site or any of the scores of other sites I've been on.

[eggynack]

I don't really like it. Seems to actually be worse than standard VoP until you pick up the moderate divine blessings, because the exalted feats are more sparse and the minor blessings don't do quite as much. Even the moderate blessings are mostly just okay with a couple of gems, with wings and fast healing as the only two that are really good, and you only get a single greater blessing at high level which has freedom of movement and true seeing as options where the original just provided both (and did so earlier in the case of FoM). I can't tell for sure if it's actually worse than VoP classic, because I didn't go over the thing with a fine toothed comb (and barely even considered the numerical bonuses which seem different without necessarily being better), but that they're so closely comparable leads me to wonder what the point here is.

After all, it's not like this is going to be good for characters that VoP was bad for. Yes, this solves the flight problem, but that was always just the most visible out of a set of problems, with the biggest being that the qualitative bonuses are limited in number and power. I wouldn't use this on a monk any more than I'd use standard VoP, and the loss of exalted feats means that I'd probably use standard VoP on a druid, because their exalted feats are so sweet. Sure, no class was getting all of their exalted feats awesome, or even good, but the progression matters early because you might not have all of the best stuff at any given point in time. That you can't even take nymph's kiss at first with this setup seems like a big mistake as well.

[Crake]

Good DMs wouldn't give encounters in which characters have nothing to do but go twiddle their thumbs, but it's a reasonable complaint.

There are two mentioned design philosophies when it comes to encounter design, tailored and status quo. Your argument holds well and true for a DM who runs tailored encounters, though I personally prefer the status quo approach, as the world does not bend to accomodate my players, they have challenges and obstacles that they must find a way to overcome. Tailored encounters tend to never entertain the possibility that the PCs may simply not have the right tool for the job, and require them to return at a later date with the necessary items or abilities to solve the problem, and as such encourages meta-gaming to a degree, if your players realise that you're doing it.

[Yogibear41]

Good DMs wouldn't give encounters in which characters have nothing to do but go twiddle their thumbs, but it's a reasonable complaint.




Off-topic but,

I don't necessarily agree with this. Been in plenty of situations where the players new more or less that they could potentially run into Monster X, but took no precautions to avoid or prepare for it then it bite them in the tail. Other than that I think it even says in the DMG somewhere that a small percentage of encounters you run into the correct decision is basically to run away.

EDIT: Didn't even see the guy's post above mine, ha sorry to beat a dead horse. :smallamused:

[Kesnit]

There are two mentioned design philosophies when it comes to encounter design, tailored and status quo. Your argument holds well and true for a DM who runs tailored encounters, though I personally prefer the status quo approach, as the world does not bend to accomodate my players, they have challenges and obstacles that they must find a way to overcome. Tailored encounters tend to never entertain the possibility that the PCs may simply not have the right tool for the job, and require them to return at a later date with the necessary items or abilities to solve the problem, and as such encourages meta-gaming to a degree, if your players realise that you're doing it.

Tell that to a lot of other posters on this forum. I am running a pre-printed module, and have posted recently that the Ninja (who is the closest to a Rogue the party has) can't make the printed Open Lock and Disable Device checks. I had several people tell me that I should adjust the DCs down to allow the party to succeed...

[SangoProduction]

There's a difference between letting the party know they won't have the tools to handle something (thus giving them an opportunity), vs going "Hah, now there's a red dragon, and none of you can fly, teleport, or out run it." (It also hits the least powerful classes the hardest.)


Tell that to a lot of other posters on this forum. I am running a pre-printed module, and have posted recently that the Ninja (who is the closest to a Rogue the party has) can't make the printed Open Lock and Disable Device checks. I had several people tell me that I should adjust the DCs down to allow the party to succeed...

Well, giving them a noticeable *chance* to succeed, is important, unless your intent was just to have everyone say "This is a waste of time, just bash the door."

Thanks for the mention of the other vow of poverty. I'll look at it later.

[Telonius]

For the Celestial Companion ... If they already have a companion (from Wizard or Sorcerer levels, or however they get it), would it just gain the celestial template, or would they get a new critter? Would actual Wizard (or Sorcerer, etc) levels stack with non-casting levels for the purposes of familiar abilities?

[OldTrees1]

Good DMs wouldn't give encounters in which characters have nothing to do but go twiddle their thumbs, but it's a reasonable complaint.

And I agree that level 17 is quite a deal too late for most things. But they are permanent.

Do you have any suggestions?

(Gear has always been something I've never gotten the hang of. Just so much there. Not even the vastness of the sea of useless feats comes close to matching the sea of useless gear.)

I agree with your DM philosophy. Good Game Design would not require the DM to correct for the game's design. So let's work out some of the necessary gear:


Phoenix Cloak(MiC, 50Kgp)(Fly Perfect at land speed)
Third Eye Conceal(Mic, 120Kgp)(Mind Blank)
Banner of the Storm's Eye(MiC, 15Kgp)(Stun and Fear immunity aura)
Hathran Mask of True Seeing(UE, 75Kgp)(True Seeing)
Minor Cloak of Displacement(DMG, 24Kgp)(20% Miss Chance)
Ring of Blinking(DMG, 27K)(Blinking at will)
Dimension Stride Boots(MiC, 2Kgp)(Teleport 20ft 5/day)
Soulfire(BoED, +4Armor/25Kgp Bracers)(Immunity to Death Effects, Energy Drain, and Negative Levels)
Ring of Freedom of Movement(DMG, 40Kgp)(Freedom of Movement)
Dispelling + Greater Dispelling(MiC, +2Weapon/18Kgp Backup weapon)(3/day cl 5 targeted Dispel Magic, 3/day cl 10 targeted Dispel Magic)
Blindsighted(Und, +30Kgp weapon)(Blindsight 30ft)
Raptor's Mask(MiC, 3.5Kgp)(Immunity to Blindness)
Tooth of Leraje (ToM, 21.6Kgp)(1/day Greater Magic Weapon +5)
Cloak of Resistance +5 (DMG, 25Kgp)
534,850gp spent so far(under 19th level WBL)
+Ability Boosts
+Primary Weapon(would include some way of bypassing DR/magic, DR/damage type, DR/material, and DR/alignment, that might be the +2 Transmuting ability or Hank's Energy Bow)
+Primary Armor

That should be a reasonable list for a 19th-20th level Fighter or Rogue that would be able to participate in 19th-20th level encounters as part of a party.
Pre perma flight, gear would also include ways to ignore movement slowing terrain(there are 2-3 cheap boots from MiC that one combines for that) as well as a temporary flight item(at 6th+).

[SangoProduction]

Nice gear. thanks for the information.

[Yogibear41]

Tell that to a lot of other posters on this forum. I am running a pre-printed module, and have posted recently that the Ninja (who is the closest to a Rogue the party has) can't make the printed Open Lock and Disable Device checks. I had several people tell me that I should adjust the DCs down to allow the party to succeed...

Open lock is easy to get around alot of the time because you can just bash the door down or the chest open. Disable Device is a different animal though. Does your player have the maximum amount of ranks for his level in the skill? If not he is doing it wrong, and you should educate him on it.