edited thread title: Warblade 20 or full warblade with nerfed half-minotaur template?

[dehro]

EDIT: This post is not entirely relevant anymore, see the last posts. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19858262&postcount=10)

After the depressingly quick demise of my last character (having a priest of kelemvor bully us around as party leader doesn't help with wanting to resurrect the character), I find myself having rolled rather mediocre dice and exploring for the first time in my gaming career, two avenues: the bard and the tome of battle.
The dice are as follows: 17, 14, 12, 11, 11 and 9
After reading a thing or two online, I'm very intrigued by the bard/warblade option, with a focus, as a character, on dancing, mobility and being a bit of a mountebank with a serious side... Think maybe a former gladiator/strongman/allround performer of the circus kind of guy who has taken up mercenary-ing after the circus went bust.
The questions are many, to begin with whether I could pull it off with these starting stats, what the best options are and how the progression works exactly...
Knowing absolutely nothing about it, I have read the warblade handbook but am still rather perplexed.

A few restrictions and further Info:
I would like to stick to these classes and avoid further crosstraning except maybe for a single prestige class later on. Favourite class and XP penalties for crosstraning apply!
If there is a better option for a character that does bard-y things and still keeps the flavour of my character concept, I'm open to suggestions, but there need to be no more than 2 classes in the alternate build.
My dm, mindful of me being a klutz with numbers and feats and applying abilities, suggests a barbarian with the half minotaur template. I am free to disregard his suggestion and the warblade is anything but simple in that regard. However, if at all possible, I would like to keep the idea of the half minotaur template, for contrast and laughs (or maybe another one, better suited and foregoing the contrast?).
I would rather not suffer more than 1 LA, 2 at a stretch if one comes from a template and one from a race
The character starts at level 12...And I would have him be CN. Internal infighting has been a staple of our group so far, but that may change now that the CE barbarian Dwarf has switched sides and his player will be rolling a paladin.
The party includes an aasimar cleric of kelemvor, a sorceress, a goblin scout-ranger, a half-orc favored soul and two more new characters, one most likely to be a paladin designed (on purpose) to grate on the aasimar her nerves and possibly a second paladin (but I'm told that this one may be a variant of some description)
Most races are game, spells must be in the spell compendium, Dragon Magazine source material is likely to be frowned upon but may be accepted. Psionic are out of the question.
All items in the magic items compendium are cool. I don't know the budget yet, but my 11th level character had a budget of 60k with a limitation of 20k for any single item...So It won't be much higher than that.

I am very curious to know what you guys would put together within this frame.

[Darrin]

The questions are many, to begin with whether I could pull it off with these starting stats, what the best options are and how the progression works exactly...
Knowing absolutely nothing about it, I have read the warblade handbook but am still rather perplexed.


The original Bardic Badass (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17031287&postcount=32) by janusjones was Bard 3/Warblade 17. However, most Bardblade builds use Bard 4/Warblade 16.

There are two basic options: Ranged or TWF. As much as I love flag-waving for TWF, I actually prefer the Ranged version, mostly because unlike most bonus precision damage, there is no range restriction on Dragonfire Inspiration: you get the bonus damage out to the maximum range of your weapon.

Stats: janusjones says Cha and Int should be at least 15 to qualify for Words of Creation, but with CN that's kinda off the table. So... maybe take Draconic Heritage instead, pick Emerald Dragon, and switch your [fire] damage to [sonic]. Dragontouched/Dragonfire Inspiration requires only Cha 11, and his build needs at least Dex 19 to get all the TWF feats. If you were going the TWF route, then I'd recommend:

Race: Human
Stats: Str 12 Dex 17 Con 11 Int 11 Wis 9 Cha 14
Build Stub: Bard 4/Warblade 16
Feats: Dragontouched (1st), Dragonfire Inspiration (human), Song of the Heart (3rd), Song of the White Raven (6th), Draconic Heritage (9th), TWF (12th), Improved TWF (15th), Greater TWF (18th)

If you're happy with [fire] damage, you can skip Dragontouched/Draconic Heritage with a Silverbrow Human (Dragon Magic) or Dragonborn of Bahumat (you can lose a bonus feat gained as a class feature instead of your human bonus feat: use the Warblade bonus feat, or EWP Bola Whip from Ghostwalk). This frees up some feat slots for:

Feats: TWF (1st), Dragonfire Inspiration (human), Song of the Heart (3rd), Song of the White Raven (6th), Improved TWF (9th), Combat Reflexes (Warblade bonus), Double Hit (12th, Miniatures Handbook), Travel Devotion (15th), Greater TWF (18th)

For the Ranged version, just replace TWF/Improved TWF/Greater TWF with Point Blank Shot/Rapid Shot/Precise Shot. However, I'm tempted to slip in Cloistered Cleric 1/Fighter 1 for more feats. If we're a CN forrestlord wild elf worshiping Shevarash or Solonor Thelandira, we can get Point Blank Shot (Elf Domain), WF Longbow (War domain), and Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion).

Race: Forestlord Wild Elf
Stats: Str 12 Dex 14(+2) Con 11 Int 9(-2) Wis 11 Cha 17
Build Stub: Bard 4/Cloistered Cleric 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 14
Feats: Dragonfire Inspiration (1st), Song of the Heart (3rd), Point Blank Shot (5th, Elf domain), WF Longbow (5th, War domain), Knowledge Devotion (5th, Cloistered), Rapid Shot (6th, FB), Song of the White Raven (6th), Manyshot (9th), Improved Rapid Shot (12th), Woodland Archer (15th, Races of the Wild), Greater Manyshot (18th)

[dehro]

well.. we tend to face extraplanar creatures and demons.. generally stuff that shrugs off elemental damage, fire damage specifically..

I'm intrigued by your build propositions. I was tempted to go for a race that comes with some solid stat bonuses, but by your proposal it doesn't seem necessary.
your final suggestion is a bit beyond what I'm looking for.. dipping in two extra classes for one level makes sense from an optimisation pov, but that's very much frowned upon (also not what I want either).. I'd rather stick to a simpler build, albeit sub-optimal.
basically I'd like to go bard4/warblade16, with the possibility of deviating into a PrC around the highest levels, should it make sense according to what we're playing then...
I should however add that either because of bad luck or because of incompetence on my part, my characters seem to be cursed with an extremely low survival rate.. so I also don't want to get my hopes up too much of actually getting to those highest levels.
All I want to make sure is that I don't pick conflicting (or illegal) feats and such, and that I make the most of the class combo as is.. whether it's with or without an unusual race or template, that's not really a concern... (although I do like to play unusual/non standard characters, for however briefly I manage to keep them alive, lol).

[dehro]

P.S. alternatively, a "simple" warblade 20 build sounds also intriguing, which would make it a little easier on the stats requirements, which is kind of a good thing, with my rolls.

[Darrin]

basically I'd like to go bard4/warblade16, with the possibility of deviating into a PrC around the highest levels, should it make sense according to what we're playing then...


Warblades have a "high optimization floor", so they're pretty hard to screw up, even if you're just randomly picking feats and maneuvers. Bardblade is also very straightforward: the TWF or archery feats aren't all that important, because the bulk of what this build is doing is going to be dished out by your fellow PCs. The fact that you have a bunch of TWF or ranged attacks is mostly icing on the cake. Adding +4d6 [sonic] damage to all the attacks made by the entire party is probably going to overshadow anything else you do as either a bard or warblade.

Which do you prefer: Ranged or TWF? Ranged is more likely to keep you out of harm's way, but picking maneuvers that work with ranged attacks is trickier.

[dehro]

Warblades have a "high optimization floor", so they're pretty hard to screw up, even if you're just randomly picking feats and maneuvers. Bardblade is also very straightforward: the TWF or archery feats aren't all that important, because the bulk of what this build is doing is going to be dished out by your fellow PCs. The fact that you have a bunch of TWF or ranged attacks is mostly icing on the cake. Adding +4d6 [sonic] damage to all the attacks made by the entire party is probably going to overshadow anything else you do as either a bard or warblade.

Which do you prefer: Ranged or TWF? Ranged is more likely to keep you out of harm's way, but picking maneuvers that work with ranged attacks is trickier.
The brain says ranged, but I like the TWF option more, since it fits the character concept better.(yeah, half my characters end up dead because I make choices according to fluff and background... I'm the kind of moron who will invest a skillpoint or two in profession baker, purely because I put it in the background and then do nothing with it:smallamused:)... So yeah, I'll go with TWF.
I do wonder how much impact the bard side of the build will have on the game...

[dehro]

sooo.. after a bit of arguing with the DM, I've changed the concept of the character entirely..
it's going to be:
Either a full warblade 20 (or 12, since that's where we start at) with whatever race best suits the class (human, I reckon?).
Or it's going to be a warblade with the half-minotaur template... but with a few nerfing mods, namely allignment restrictions (no neutrals), a halved budget with limitations as to what I can buy with it in terms of magic items (weapons, armor and very little else) and, most importantly, 3 racial dice, so effectively losing 1 level to LA and sinking 3 in the race/template) which makes the progression half-minotaur3/warblade8
now.. the half minotaur template comes with a crap-ton of goodies beginning with +12 to Strength and +ses to other stats and so on.. but.. is it worth effectively losing 4 levels of warblade over? consideration goes to the fact that it's quite unlikely that this character will fare any better than my other characters, so I might never reach those high levels and miss them then...

I admit that the concept of the template character intrigues me (and it would compensate for my rather low beginning stats)...
would anyone be able to tell me if the template is worth it?

[Darrin]

I'll go with TWF.


Ok, then I would recommend:

Race: Silverbrow Human (Dragon Magic)
Stats: Str 12 Dex 17 Con 11 Int 11 Wis 9 Cha 14
1) Bard 1. Feat: TWF. Human: Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic).
2) Bard 2.
3) Bard 3. Feat: Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting).
4) Bard 4.
5) Warblade 1.
6) Warblade 2. Feat: Song of the White Raven (Tome of Battle).
7) Warblade 3.
8) Warblade 4.
9) Warblade 5. Feat: Improved TWF. Bonus: Combat Reflexes.
10) Warblade 6.
11) Warblade 7.
12) Warblade 8. Feat: Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook).
13) Warblade 9. Bonus: Improved Initiative.
14) Warblade 10.
15) Warblade 11. Feat: Travel Devotion.
16) Warblade 12.
17) Warblade 13. Bonus: Blind-Fight.
18) Warblade 14. Feat: Greater TWF.
19) Warblade 15.
20) Warblade 16.

If you prefer [sonic] damage, then:

Race: Human
Stats: Str 12 Dex 17 Con 11 Int 11 Wis 9 Cha 14
1) Bard 1. Feat: Dragontouched. Human: Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic).
2) Bard 2.
3) Bard 3. Feat: Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting).
4) Bard 4.
5) Warblade 1.
6) Warblade 2. Feat: Song of the White Raven (Tome of Battle).
7) Warblade 3.
8) Warblade 4.
9) Warblade 5. Feat: Draconic Heritage (Races of the Dragon, Emerald). Bonus: Combat Reflexes.
10) Warblade 6.
11) Warblade 7.
12) Warblade 8. Feat: TWF.
13) Warblade 9. Bonus: Improved Initiative.
14) Warblade 10.
15) Warblade 11. Feat: Improved TWF.
16) Warblade 12.
17) Warblade 13. Bonus: Blind-Fight.
18) Warblade 14. Feat: Greater TWF.
19) Warblade 15.
20) Warblade 16.

Maneuvers:

Warblade 1: Leading the Attack (WR1), Wolf Fang Strike (TC1), Sudden Leap (TC1), Punishing Stance (IH1)
Warblade 2: Moment of Perfect Mind (DM1)
Warblade 3: White Raven Tactics (WR3)
Warblade 4: Leaping Dragon Stance (TC3), Iron Heart Surge (IH3) replacing Wolf Fang Strike.
Warblade 5: Emerald Razor (DM2)
Warblade 6: Lion's Roar (WR3) replacing Leading the Attack
Warblade 7: Dancing Mongoose (TC5)
Warblade 8: Rapid Counter (DM5) replacing Emerald Razor
Warblade 9: Pouncing Charge (TC5)
Warblade 10: Hearing the Air (Stance, DM5), Moment of Alacrity (DM6) replacing Rapid Counter
Warblade 11: Quicksilver Motion (DM7)
Warblade 12: no change
Warblade 13: Raging Mongoose (TC8)
Warblade 14: Diamond Defense (DM8) replacing Moment of Alacrity
Warblade 15: Time Stands Still (DM9)
Warblade 16: Stance of Alacrity (DM8), Mountain Tombstone Strike (SD9) replacing Lion's Roar



sooo.. after a bit of arguing with the DM, I've changed the concept of the character entirely..


Oop. Should have checked the thread again before I posted.



now.. the half minotaur template comes with a crap-ton of goodies beginning with +12 to Strength and +ses to other stats and so on.. but.. is it worth effectively losing 4 levels of warblade over?


If this was the half-minotaur template from Dragon #313, then that's generally a "Heck yeah!" (LA +1, large size, no racial HD). With three racial HD... hrrmm. The +12 Str is tempting... looks like it'd be pretty decent on a melee meatbag.

Has your DM considered using the Minotaur from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting? LA +0, medium size, Str +4/Dex -2/Int -2/Cha -2, NA +2, 1d6 gore attack.

[dehro]

heh.. thanks for the effort, but my talk with the DM has effectively blown the bard side of the build somewhat out of the water...
as per my latest post, I'm going full Warblade now.. with an option to get the Half-Minotaur template (nerfed as per my previous post)...

and yes, sonic damage is better than fire, what with us often facing off against stuff that does cardio in pits of molten lava..

we're swordsaging one another, apparently...

he did not consider that option, no.. he took the template as is, and then tacked 3 racial dice to it... (and stripped my shopping list).. it's still rather appealing.. I was thinking half-orc/half-minotaur, or just human/half-minotaur

the setting is Faerun-based with a few mostly undetectable adaptations

[dehro]

sooo.. after a few criss-crossing swordsaging posts, I'm recapping where I'm at and what the open questions are.

starting stats are
17, 14, 12, 11, 11, 9 pre-level gain and pre racial adjustment.
the character starts at level 12.
the character will be Warblade all the way, with two potential roads to it:

plain and simple Warblade of a race best suited for it (human? half-orc? elven with an eye on eternal blade?). I may consider a 1LA race, but I'd rather not. No dips of any kind. Budget of 75.000 gold with a max expenditure on single items of around 22k.
similarly simple Warblade but with the Half-Minotaur template as per dragon #313, modified as follows: 3 racial HD, a halved budget of 35k, with max expenditure of 10.000 gold on single items, items which are limited to armor, weapons, stat enhancing items and "maybe" other small and mostly inconsequential items such as a ring of sustenance. The neutral axis of the allignment is denied, so this would leave me most likely with a Caotic Good character.

The character is meant to be a bruiser/tank.
Our opponents tend to be big bad hard-to-kill creatures with powers, DR and SR who often reduce elements fairly consistently, fire being their bread and butter. They tend to be extraplanar, demons and suchlike. Our DM is not above adapting his choice of opponents to keep our battles at the very least tough.
We rarely encounter big numbers of medium-challenge mooks. It's usually a couple of nasty opponents, maybe with the support of a scattering of minions who at most have one stinging power that they may or may not get a chance to fire off before being neutralised.
All considered, elemental damage, specifically fire-damage is probably a bad thing to pursue.
The setting is Faerun-based with very minor twists ...as in, those are the creatures and races, pantheon and general feel, but the actual geography and political landscape is different and mostly undefined.
Eberron material is not contemplated (by which I mean things such as the warforged race or steampunk-y elements)
Psionics are a no-no.
Level adjustment is not buy-off-able.
Flaws reek of minmaxing and powerplaying so I won't even try to propose them (nor do I want to myself, ideally I would do without optimisation if I wasn't playing a melee character)
I'd like to keep the character as simple to play as possible, what with me being a complete moron when it comes to remembering and combining the powers and feats correctly.
I'm not completely sure as to whether to go with TWF or THF.. but I like the improved crit range of the khukri.
All sources are accepted for races and talents (though obscure dragon magazine references may be criticised), spells (don't think I get any, but what do I know) must be in the core books or spell compendium. Magic items must be in the MIC, DM manual or Player manual.
Rulings on what is legal and what isn't are very RAW based, rather than RAI. there is no wiggle room for "maybe the DM will let me use this feat even if it isn't 100% meant for/compatible/legal.."

I'm very intrigued by the half-minotaur concept but wonder if -1LA and 3 racial HD might make it not worth going for.
Then again, my characters tend to not have a long lifespan, no matter how well thought out they may be... so not reaching top levels and missing out on warblade stuff may not be a concern.
Since I'm not going with the Bardblade anymore, should I consider investing in more classic fighter feats instead? improved crit? power attack? charging of one kind of the other?

either way, any advice is welcome, and I will probably have more questions as to the combat meccanics of the warblade.

[Darrin]

plain and simple Warblade of a race best suited for it (human? half-orc? elven with an eye on eternal blade?). I may consider a 1LA race, but I'd rather not. No dips of any kind. Budget of 75.000 gold with a max expenditure on single items of around 22k.



Do you expect the game to go all the way to Warblade 20? If so, then you may actually get to enjoy the Warblade capstone ("Stance Mastery"). Otherwise... what do you prefer as your typical attack mode? Two-Handed Buster Sword, TWF, Lockdown Tripper, etc.?




similarly simple Warblade but with the Half-Minotaur template as per dragon #313, modified as follows: 3 racial HD, a halved budget of 35k, with max expenditure of 10.000 gold on single items, items which are limited to armor, weapons, stat enhancing items and "maybe" other small and mostly inconsequential items such as a ring of sustenance. The neutral axis of the allignment is denied, so this would leave me most likely with a Caotic Good character.



I've been puzzling over what to do with the Half-Minotaur thing, and here's the stumbling block... if we go by the text in Dragon #313, this template can only be applied to a giant, humanoid, or monstrous humanoid. The obvious pick for a melee meatbag would be Water Orc, but then you have three humanoid levels with medium BAB... which for some reason I find unacceptable on a pure melee build. I'd like to avoid any additional LA, so that rules out giant or half-giant, but... the monstrous humanoid races with LA +0 are just not very strong. Unless you're ok with a semi-humorous build, like Muckdweller or Tibbit.



I'm not completely sure as to whether to go with TWF or THF.. but I like the improved crit range of the khukri.


Crit-Fisher... huh. I'm going to guess that your DM would frown on Lightning Mace Aptitude Shenanigans?



Since I'm not going with the Bardblade anymore, should I consider investing in more classic fighter feats instead? improved crit? power attack? charging of one kind of the other?


To do anything with charging, you need Pounce, which generally means a Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 dip, and this helps even out your initiator level (although grabbing Wolf Totem Barbarian 2 for Improved Trip is also quite popular). Water Orc Half-Minotaur 3/SLT Barb 1/Warblade 7 with the typical PA/IBR/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack package is very straight-forward, easy to play, and can dish out an obscene amount of DPS. The humanoid 3 RHD and LA +1 throw off the feats a little bit, but you're starting with enough levels to even it out.

Another option would be capitalizing on your large size, you could do something with Hulking Hurler/Bloodstorm Blade, since you can take large-only feats such as Knockback and Rock Hurling (Races of Stone). However, you're going to need a lot of feats to do it properly, and thus would have to rely on several dips.

[OldTrees1]

While Half Minotaur does add a bunch of stuff(Large Size and boosts ability scores), at the cost of +1LA and 3RHD it is not the efficient path towards those benefits.

Goliath[Races of Stone] Barbarian 1(Spirit Lion Totem, Goliath Barbarian) costs +1LA and 1 level but gives you Large size(in rage), +4Str, and Pounce. While this is less Str, it is still more efficient. However this does require a 1 level dip in barbarian and probably taking the Extra Rage feat.

[dehro]

realistically speaking I doubt I'll ever reach the capstone with this character... and for preferred attack mode, either TWF or THF

I would keep it rather simple with the minotaur thing.. and just go human/half-minotaur.. without added complexities... half-orc might already stretch it for those extra +2 in STR.. but the -2 isn't nice either.. so no, I think simple human is probably best.

as for the light mace shenanigans, I had to look them up, lol.. they sound good and might just slip under the radar.

I would want to avoid class dips of any kind, so charging is a no go then, at least for the Minotaur build.. if I was to avoid the template I might maybe go with a Goliath and try the charging route, but it does seem too feat consuming to be really worth it... I expect the DM would find easy counters to stop me from charging too often, which would mean I'd put all my eggs in one basket and that basket suddenly has a lock on it.

[OldTrees1]

I expect the DM would find easy counters to stop me from charging too often, which would mean I'd put all my eggs in one basket and that basket suddenly has a lock on it.

Counters(nope sorry, no charging this encounter) or obstacles(icy floor requires a balance check/fence requires a jump check to charge)?

[dehro]

Counters(nope sorry, no charging this encounter) or obstacles(icy floor requires a balance check/fence requires a jump check to charge)?

The latter.. Also, we spend inordinate amount of time underground, so narrow tunnels that bend, low ceilings and other such amenities.. I fully expect that I will encounter at least one passage where my minotaur large frame will have to crawl through and/or get stuck

[OldTrees1]

The latter.. Also, we spend inordinate amount of time underground, so narrow tunnels that bend, low ceilings and other such amenities.. I fully expect that I will encounter at least one passage where my minotaur large frame will have to crawl through and/or get stuck

Ah. Since it is the latter, I would not think of it as a locked basket. However I agree with not overspecializing. (This is another area where the size changing Goliath has an advantage)

[dehro]

True....
This isn't helping me decide whether to take the template or not, lol

[OldTrees1]

True....
This isn't helping me decide whether to take the template or not, lol

I just noticed: Why does Half Minotaur only get half wealth!? Martial characters are quite wealth dependant(especially since you need to buy Flight and Special Senses link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items)).

[dehro]

DM'S decision. I'm not going to try and talk him out of it. It also fits with my idea for the character, basically a frankenstein's monster sort of tale.. Guy was 'made' and served as a bodyguard, prize-fighter and slave until he managed to run off. He didn't get to take a lot of gear with him.
I can get the party sorceress to make me fly, if necessary ( in fact that's how my previous character died, when the flying dwarven barbarian was charmed into attacking me)

Edit: I do get scent for free with the template

[dehro]

So, I'm thinking I'll take the template. It's not ideal but I like the character.
The build would look something like this:
Half minotaur 3/warblade 8
STR 12+12(template+size mod)= 24
DEX 17+1(level)+1(level)-2(size mod)=17 (necessary to qualify for improved TWF)
CON 12+6(template+size mod)= 18
INT 14-2(template)= 12
WIS 11
CHA 9

Should I level up I'll pick between adding +1 to Wis or Dex. (seriously, leveling up is by no means a given)

Feats could be
Scent (template)
Minotaur Cunning (template)
TWF (1st)
weapon focus light mace (3rd)
Combat reflexes (warblade bonus feat)
Lightning mace (6th)
Improved TWF (9th)

Improved critical requires BAB +8, whereas improved TWF requires BAB +6...So either I can get the extra human feat (am waiting on confirmation from the DM on that score), bring down weapon focus to human bonus 1st, Lightning mace to 3rd, get improved TWF at 6th (is that even legal?) and finally improved critical at 9th, or I'm stuck waiting for the next level to get it.

Wait.. No, that still doesn't work because I need Combat reflexes before I can take lighting mace... Crud
So.. If I get the extra human feat, I can bring down Combat reflexes and pick another bonus warblade feat.. But I still won't be able to get improved critical before 12th, not even if I swap around improved TWF and Lightning mace... Because neither of them fits the warblade bonus feat slot.
So, Improved critical will have to wait.

so, I just got confirmed that I don't get the human extra talent, meaning things are as above. I also don't get the extra skill point for human race because, template. (whether it's houserule or not, that's how it is).

Stances
Blood in the water and... Punishing stance?
Maneuvers
Moment of perfect mind, sudden leap, mountain hammer, iron heart surge, white raven tactics, Death from above, are the ones that look good now, but I should probably go over them to work out if I qualify to get them and what else to get...

[Darrin]

Stances
Blood in the water and... Punishing stance?


I prefer Punishing Stance (works on every hit) over Blood in the Water (only works on crits). Combat may not last long enough to get anything decent out of Blood in the Water.



Maneuvers
Moment of perfect mind, sudden leap, mountain hammer, iron heart surge, white raven tactics, Death from above, are the ones that look good now, but I should probably go over them to work out if I qualify to get them and what else to get...

I would recommend:

WB1: Moment of Perfect Mind (DM1), Wolf Fang Strike (TC1), Sudden Leap (TC1), Punishing Stance (IH1)
WB2: Mountain Hammer (SD2)
WB3: Leading the Attack (WR1)
WB4: Blood in the Water (TC1), Iron Heart Surge (IH3) replacing Wolf Fang Strike
WB5: White Raven Tactics (WR3)
WB6: Covering Strike (WR4) replacing Leading the Attack
WB7: Bounding Assault (DM4)
WB8: Dancing Mongoose (TC5) replacing Bounding Assault

[OldTrees1]

Improved critical requires BAB +8, whereas improved TWF requires BAB +6...

Gloves of the Balanced Hand are a relatively cheap magic item that bestows ITWF on anyone with TWF. This is good because ITWF is not worth a feat slot otherwise.

[dehro]

I prefer Punishing Stance (works on every hit) over Blood in the Water (only works on crits). Combat may not last long enough to get anything decent out of Blood in the Water.

I would recommend:

WB1: Moment of Perfect Mind (DM1), Wolf Fang Strike (TC1), Sudden Leap (TC1), Punishing Stance (IH1)
WB2: Mountain Hammer (SD2)
WB3: Leading the Attack (WR1)
WB4: Blood in the Water (TC1), Iron Heart Surge (IH3) replacing Wolf Fang Strike
WB5: White Raven Tactics (WR3)
WB6: Covering Strike (DM4) replacing Leading the Attack
WB7: Bounding Assault (DM4)
WB8: Dancing Mongoose replacing
interesting progression... which leaves me wondering what Dancing Mongoose would replace :smalltongue: I think I'll follow your suggestions.

Gloves of the Balanced Hand are a relatively cheap magic item that bestows ITWF on anyone with TWF. This is good because ITWF is not worth a feat slot otherwise.
that's very interesting... I do suspect however that my DM won't allow it for this character (he's being really tough on sticking to the letter to what he gave as guidelines and this item isn't really in the spirit of what he allowed the character to have... also, if I aim to progress on the TWF feat tree, I doubt that having the gloves allowes me to take Greater TWF.. I could take TWF, but I don't know that the gloves would scale with the feats, what with it not being mentioned at all in the description.
... but I'll give it a try.

[OldTrees1]

interesting progression... which leaves me wondering what Dancing Mongoose would replace :smalltongue: I think I'll follow your suggestions.

that's very interesting... I do suspect however that my DM won't allow it for this character (he's being really tough on sticking to the letter to what he gave as guidelines and this item isn't really in the spirit of what he allowed the character to have... also, if I aim to progress on the TWF feat tree, I doubt that having the gloves allowes me to take Greater TWF.. I could take TWF, but I don't know that the gloves would scale with the feats, what with it not being mentioned at all in the description.
... but I'll give it a try.

Do not take GTWF. It is worth less than half what ITWF is worth and ITWF is not worth a feat slot.

[dehro]

mmmh.. ok (I'm not quite there yet anyway.. )
thing is, this build started with crit fishing in mind, which is somewhat impeded by not being able to apply lightning mace to kukris.. if I start cutting down on extra attacks too, I might have to reconsider the entire build.. and since I'm playing the character tomorrow and still have to familiarise with the mecanics... it's getting a bit close..

[Darrin]

interesting progression... which leaves me wondering what Dancing Mongoose would replace :smalltongue: I think I'll follow your suggestions.

Whoops. Uh... either Covering Strike or Bounding Assault. Probably Bounding Assault, as without Pounce it doesn't do all that much for you. There aren't that many strikes left that you'd want to get rid of. Then again... you will probably need DM maneuvers later, and don't really need Covering Strike.

TWF with a Warblade can be a bit frustrating because you want to focus on boosts and counters so you can full attack, but still have one or two strikes to fall back on for general utility or if you get stuck with just a standard action. That and a lot of the swift-action movement (Travel Devotion, Anklets of Translocation, dimension hop, hustle, etc.) that makes TWF viable interferes with your recovery mechanic (full attack + swift action recover).

White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge are the two lightning rods in ToB that attract the most attention. Before you take these, talk to your DM and work out how they will work in this game. Most DMs nerf WRT so it can only be used once a round and/or can't be used on yourself. Iron Heart Surge is just a head-scratcher... it doesn't work against the conditions that it should work against (immobilizing stuff), and does work against things it has no business working against (AMF, sunlight/gravity, etc.). There have been several house rule "fixes" proposed, might be worth a google.

Mountain Hammer is too useful to abandon on a TWF build, particularly if something with high DR is giving you trouble.

Do be careful that you take enough Diamond Mind to get Time Stands Still later (requires four DM maneuvers/stances).

[dehro]

I already know I'm going to give my DM a headache.. which seems only fair, since I get one every time I'm putting together a new character, lol

so.. crit fishing seems to be somewhat hampered by the limitations on my character.. makes me wonder if I should bother with still switching to kukri and maybe retrain the lightning mace talent once I have improved critical... or if I should try a different route and ignore the crit range, going maybe for power attack/cleaving and such..

[dehro]

I just realised the progression has a few issues.. dancing mongoose is a 5th level maneuver.. at level 8 I only have access to level 4.. and covering strike is White Raven..
so.. not sure I qualify for everything in the progression (and keep qualifying as I swap them out)...

[Darrin]

I just realised the progression has a few issues.. dancing mongoose is a 5th level maneuver.. at level 8 I only have access to level 4.. and covering strike is White Raven..
so.. not sure I qualify for everything in the progression (and keep qualifying as I swap them out)...

Your 3 racial HD count as 1/2 initiator levels, so at Warblade 8 you actually have 8 + 1.5 = 9.5 IL. So yes, you can swap in a 5th level maneuver at Warblade 8.

I swapped Covering Strike for Leading the Attack because it's a boost not a strike, and if you're using TWF for full-round attacks then standard-action strikes may be wasting a maneuver. At the level you take it, you still meet the prereqs for it because you still have White Raven Tactics.

I recommend keeping Mountain Hammer and Iron Heart Surge as strikes, even though they are standard actions, because they can still be very useful both in and out of combat. Most everything else you'll likely want to keep as well.

Covering Strike and Bounding Assault are the two maneuvers that are "swappable", because you don't really need (or have much room for) additional White Raven maneuvers, and Bounding Assault only offers a single attack without Pounce. Covering Strike is still a boost and thus works well with TWF, but denying your opponents AoOs is only situationally useful. And while Bounding Assault doesn't work well with TWF, the Holy Grail of TWF Warblades is Time Stands Still, and you're going to need 4 Diamond Mind maneuvers as prereqs. So while you don't necessarily want to keep Bounding Assault, you will probably want to replace it with a higher-level Diamond Mind boost such as Moment of Alacrity or Quicksilver Motion (well, mostly Quicksilver Motion). My recommendations on your four Diamond Mind maneuvers:

WB1. Moment of Perfect Mind (DM1), IL = 2.5
WB10. Hearing the Air (Stance, DM5), IL = 11.5
WB12/13. Quicksilver Motion (DM7), IL = 13.5/14.5
WB16. Stance of Alacrity (DM8), Time Stands Still (DM9), IL = 17.5

Hmm. Based on that... keep Covering Strike, and replace Bounding Assault with something else:

Wall of Blades (IH2). Lower level, but always useful to have around. Can also be used to grab Bonesplitting Strike later for Con damage, or maybe help upgrade Mountain Hammer to Elder.

Lightning Recovery (IH4). Counter so it's TWF-friendly, and who doesn't want to reroll a missed attack?

Death From Above (TC4). Doesn't work with TWF, but I like how it combines an attack with some free movement, and it lets you jump over opponents to get into flanking position so you can unload all that TWF whoopass on 'em next round.

[dehro]

I swapped Covering Strike for Leading the Attack because it's a boost not a strike, and if you're using TWF for full-round attacks then standard-action strikes may be wasting a maneuver. At the level you take it, you still meet the prereqs for it because you still have White Raven Tactics.
Must I not "keep" the prerequisites if I want to keep a maneuver that has prerequisites? If for instance dancing mongoose requires me to have 3 other TC maneuvers, must I not keep having them or renounce dancing mongoose should I swap out one of the other three?

Other than this doubt, the rest of the selection is juicy and seems to be paying off, so thanks (also thanks for clearing up my misunderstanding as to the initiator level)

[Darrin]

Must I not "keep" the prerequisites if I want to keep a maneuver that has prerequisites? If for instance dancing mongoose requires me to have 3 other TC maneuvers, must I not keep having them or renounce dancing mongoose should I swap out one of the other three?

You only need to meet the prereqs for a maneuver to learn it. Once the maneuver is known, you can swap the prereqs for something else. While this isn't explicitly stated in ToB, there's Ask Sage/FAQ/custserv rulings that supports this, and it's been common practice for almost a decade.

There's the ToB Unofficial Errata project (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=13292.0) if you're looking for something semi-official.

That being said, you do want to be careful about keeping enough prereqs for the maneuvers you want to focus your build on later (mostly Time Stands Still). Or if you know your build is going to rely on something like White Raven Hammer, Pouncing Charge, Adamantine Hurricane, etc.