Is it Possible to Build 'Mage-Hate' to Be More Effective Than Another Mage?

[supersonic29]

Okay, that title sounds ugly but it can only be so long. Say you want to build a character to efficiently take out mages, tunnel-vision to the max. Without any excessive cheese on either end, can you build a non-spellcasting mage-hate character to be better at taking out mages than if you just built a mage to take out other mages? It always seemed to me that WotC gave us a noteable amount of spell(caster) hate and I started to wonder how exploitable bringing it all together could be. If still inferior to a counter-mage-mage, how good would a magehater it in general?

[Flickerdart]

A non-casting (and non-manifesting) mage slayer gets himself killed pretty much immediately.

Spellcasters are amazing at taking down other spellcasters because magic provides a lot of anti-magic tools. AMFs, building golems, counterspelling - and those are just Core options. Most mundane mage-hate amounts to "lol deal more damage" which was never the problem.

A potential mage slayer needs to do the following things:

Find mages. Mundanes can't really do this, but spellcasters get divinations aplenty.
Make sure the mages do not find you. Again - casters have a lot of anti-detection toys, while mundanes are forced to rely on cherrypicking classes that get this stuff late or not at all.
Fight the victim on your terms. This means catching them by surprise and preventing escape. For casters, that's one spell for each thing. Mundanes pay the cost with levels, if at all.
Pierce the victim's protections. Magic is great at ignoring stuff like etherealness, DR, resistances, piercing illusions.

[supersonic29]

A potential mage slayer needs to do the following things:

Find mages. Mundanes can't really do this, but spellcasters get divinations aplenty.
Make sure the mages do not find you. Again - casters have a lot of anti-detection toys, while mundanes are forced to rely on cherrypicking classes that get this stuff late or not at all.
Fight the victim on your terms. This means catching them by surprise and preventing escape. For casters, that's one spell for each thing. Mundanes pay the cost with levels, if at all.
Pierce the victim's protections. Magic is great at ignoring stuff like etherealness, DR, resistances, piercing illusions.


Okay so, for sake of argument, what's the best a mundane could do to achieve these things?

Tracking and some sort of magic item for actual detection
From meta character design, perhaps some sort of racian nondetection? I feel as though I've read through races that have effects like this.
Some sort of infiltrator/sneak attack deal perhaps? Your goal would likely have to be to get the first swing, and then second by rolling high initiative, bursting them down with your big damage
For this one, which of these protections would a mage have for a 24 hour span? Ideally we'd be avoiding anything he/she would activate mid-encounter

[Nifft]

Okay, that title sounds ugly but it can only be so long. Say you want to build a character to efficiently take out mages, tunnel-vision to the max. Okay, so a non-mage who kills mages.

How about a Cleric or Dr--

Without any excessive cheese on either end, can you build a non-spellcasting mage-hate character to be better at taking out mages than if you just built a mage to take out other mages? -- oh.

Non-spellcasting.

That's a higher bar.

Alright, how about a Binder or Warlock wi--


Okay so, for sake of argument, what's the best a mundane could do to achieve these things?
-- ulp.

A mundane?!

That's -- but -- ouch.

I mean, good luck.

[supersonic29]

Alright, how about a Binder or Warlock wi--


You could probably make a case for binder, I'd hear that out. Mundane was my first poorly conveyed thought, but I'm interested to know where each bar lies in relation to one another.

[Inevitability]

I am pretty sure that the optimizing masterminds of GitP can create a mundane who is just plain impossible to take down with magic (heck, the Emerald Legion does exactly that). However, the problem is actually fighting mages.

Let's assume one of the most basic ways of defense for magical characters; teleportation and plane shifting. I don't think a character would count as mundane anymore the moment he starts using those, but without a way to go to other planes each caster can just Plane Shift to a nice little demiplane and retire.


At low levels, however, I believe this might be possible. I recall an elder evil-worshipping build who was immune to nearly all the shenanigans a 1st-level wizard could pull (Fell Drain Sonic Snap, Color Spray, Grease).

[supersonic29]

Let's assume one of the most basic ways of defense for magical characters; teleportation and plane shifting. I don't think a character would count as mundane anymore the moment he starts using those, but without a way to go to other planes each caster can just Plane Shift to a nice little demiplane and retire.
Ah, one of my least favorite things mages do :smallannoyed: is there any way with or without magic to prevent teleportation/shifting? Maybe even some sort of weapon enchant? I feel like I've read of such a thing. I know there's a weapon enchant that makes spells likely to fail.

At low levels, however, I believe this might be possible. I recall an elder evil-worshipping build who was immune to nearly all the shenanigans a 1st-level wizard could pull (Fell Drain Sonic Snap, Color Spray, Grease).
I'd be plenty interested to know a built that can shut down mages of his own level through level 6 or something like that. The higher you go with mages the more mundanes become laughable in comparison unfortunately.

[Deadline]

Okay so, for sake of argument, what's the best a mundane could do to achieve these things?

Tracking and some sort of magic item for actual detection
From meta character design, perhaps some sort of racian nondetection? I feel as though I've read through races that have effects like this.
Some sort of infiltrator/sneak attack deal perhaps? Your goal would likely have to be to get the first swing, and then second by rolling high initiative, bursting them down with your big damage
For this one, which of these protections would a mage have for a 24 hour span? Ideally we'd be avoiding anything he/she would activate mid-encounter


Well, there are some problems here:


If you need to use magic items (which must be crafted by a caster), are you really using a mundane to do this?
There is in fact a template that does this. It's Vecna-blooded. But guess what? It requires you to be a caster. :smalltongue:
How do you defeat divinations? How do you defeat magical detection? How do you beat a Wizard who's polymorphed into a Dire Tortoise to initiative? (Hint, you can't).
Likely Mind Blank, some sort of armor or miss chance buff, or other defense with a long duration. As mentioned in #3, all the Wizard needs to do is beat you to initiative and teleport out. And Contingency+Teleport covers the edge cases where that might not be the case.


There's really not much that a mundane can manage here. The best TO build that tried this was the Ex Fighter, somewhere on these forums, and even then it used a variety of tricks that no GM in their right mind would allow to even have a fighting chance.

Honestly, I'm not sure it's possible, assuming reasonably intelligent and optimized casters (which are probably unlikely as opponents in a campaign all that often, so you might be ok if you work with your DM to sort out the details).

[Flickerdart]

Ex Fighter
Ex Fighter was hardly a mundane, though. The build even involved cleric levels.

[Deadline]

Ex Fighter was hardly a mundane, though. The build even involved cleric levels.

I know it did at one point, but did the final version of it contain caster levels? I was pretty sure that it didn't (although it made use of a ridiculous amount of magic items and spells cast on it by casters).

[Vhaidara]

One spell the wizard will have up that ruins your option of Assassination is Foresight. Now you can't surprise him.

[supersonic29]

I would say magic items could be on the table. It would be proving little if the character used them to solve all problems, but using one or two for things like detection and maybe teleportation chasing/preventing could make rather than break things. We're going for someone who is adept in killing casters if need be, not the crazy caster-killing psychopath who would never consider buying a caster-made item.

[stack]

Can you beat forum-op Schrodinger's wizards and Dal Quor planar shepards? Nope. Beat well built casters run in an intelligent and borderline paranoid way by an experienced player? Unlikely without help. Ganking the orc shaman in the adventure path? Quite doable. All depends on the game you are playing in.

[Nifft]

One spell the wizard will have up that ruins your option of Assassination is Foresight. Now you can't surprise him.

If you're going with a pure Binder (or a gestalt with one side Binder), then you've got constant Mind Blank up -- would that negate a Divination effect like Foresight?

[Flickerdart]

Can you beat forum-op Schrodinger's wizards and Dal Quor planar shepards? Nope. Beat well built casters run in an intelligent and borderline paranoid way by an experienced player? Unlikely without help. Ganking the orc shaman in the adventure path? Quite doable. All depends on the game you are playing in.
The thing about orc shamans in the adventure path is that anyone who's good at killing dudes can kill them. It's absolutely unnecessary to spend resources on them above and beyond what you'd spend on any enemy, and doing so means you're not doing your job of killing everyone else nearly as well.

[sovin_ndore]

I don't have a build in mind and am also aware that you will have issues participating in spellcaster 'missile launcher tag' as levels progress.

That said, there are a number of ways to 'mundanely' prevent spellcasting without depending on AMF, which would be where I would start. The primary mechanics would probably come from the PrCs Occult Slayer[CW] and Witch Slayer[ToM]. The Arcane Ranger ACF [CM] would be about the only other thematic addition that leaps to mind excepting 'spellcaster solutions to spellcasters'. Unfortunately, favored enemy does not innately add much that would be of use to us (unless there are feat combinations I am unaware of).

This chasis would probably need support from standard reach-mongering (Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Thicket of Blades, Size enhancement). It would also need to stack protective items to prevent as much of spellcasting toolkit from scrying/etc as possible; AMF may be a reasonable option to stack on everything else but then you need to find class feature non-detection, etc.

[Psyren]

One spell the wizard will have up that ruins your option of Assassination is Foresight. Now you can't surprise him.

And good luck killing a psion, who simply reloads his save, or has a phylactery stored somewhere, or has his second mind tank you like a boss etc

[Vhaidara]

If you're going with a pure Binder (or a gestalt with one side Binder), then you've got constant Mind Blank up -- would that negate a Divination effect like Foresight?

I think that's a hotly debated point, or at least it used to be. Personally, I say no, because Mind Blank prevents divinations gathering information about the person under the effects of Mind Blank, while Foresight just tells you that YOU will be attacked, not necessarily who by.

As a side note, it's possible that the wizard's own Mind Blank might block his own Foresight, since Foresight is gathering information about him (Are you about to come under attack?)

[stack]

The thing about orc shamans in the adventure path is that anyone who's good at killing dudes can kill them. It's absolutely unnecessary to spend resources on them above and beyond what you'd spend on any enemy, and doing so means you're not doing your job of killing everyone else nearly as well.

Fair enough, but I suspect there is a reasonably sized optimization band where enemy mages are non-trivial threats but are not invulnerable to the mundane mage-counters available. Can't say how wide it is or if it is worth building for in your game.

[DMVerdandi]

If you cast imbue with spell ability on the anti-mage, will they kill themselves (please)?

[Rebel7284]

It depends on both character level and optimization level.

At levels 1-4 or even maybe up to level 6, it's difficult, but not impossible to kill a well prepared mage. Mundane stealth is really good for that and grappling can conditionally be good too (well besides Abrupt Jaunt.)

At level 20, a poorly played caster is nearly immortal and an optimized one has so many levels of defense, it's not even a contest (astral projected dire tortoise with 25 crafted contingent spells and persisted immunity to everything. Memorized Invoke Magic to cast even if you DO manage to get them into an AMF somehow, etc, etc.)

[Flickerdart]

If you cast imbue with spell ability on the anti-mage, will they kill themselves (please)?
I went to check the spell thinking it would be usable on willing creatures only, but apparently not - you can totally imbue a creature with spells against its will!

[illyahr]

The only way I can think to start is with a Karsite. Gets a human's feat, extra Con, extra Cha, magic nullifying attacks, spell resistance, heals when a spell fizzles against his SR. All at the low, low price of a +2 LA. They can't cast spells, but spell-likes, supernatural abilities, and magic items are ok.

[jiriku]

If we assume you are a PC and that your opponent is an NPC, there's considerable room for mundane mage-slayer builds. Skillful DMs may even tailor combats with your character in mind to ensure plenty of exciting sword-vs-sorcery duels. However, your goal is to be better at mage-hunting than a mage would be, well... how do you define 'mage?'

The strongest and most well-rounded mundane classes are warblades and crusaders. If a 'mage' is anyone who casts arcane spells, then a warblade or crusader can certainly outperform a warmage, and you could probably be more effective than a bard, dread necromancer, beguiler, or low-level sorcerer (those classes tend to be vulnerable to hard-shutdown defenses, so you can outperform them by being versatile).

But if you mean 'wizard' when you say 'mage,' you're pretty much boned. You'll be a more effective mage hunter than your arcane competition at low levels when they have few spells and feats and low caster level. But you won't be particularly good even then, unless the mage has poor defenses. And as flickerdart mentioned, if the mage is a pushover, wherefore become a mage slayer?

[Rebel7284]

By the way, here is an effective mage killing build for you, as noted before, only effective very early on, but may at the very least be useful for a few levels after.

Dark (LA bought off) Whisper Gnome
Spellthief 1/Battledancer 1/Fighter 2

1. Silencing Strike
2. Improved Unarmed Strike (Bonus)
3. Free
3. Improved Grapple (Fighter Bonus)
4. Mage Slayer (Fighter Bonus)

with HIPS and an insane modifier to hide, you are likely to eventually be able to sneak up on the caster. Once you do, grapple (improved grapple cancels out your size penalty and you should have high strength.) then you silence your target and steal their spells and if somehow they can still cast, the provoke an AOO.

No idea how to stop abrupt jaunt, but silence helps.

[Kraken]

As usual wizards end up being the focus, but don't forget that druids, clerics, and even wu jens and so forth exist too. The level range is also important too. One important trait I'll throw out there is mettle - otherwise there are a lot of fort/will save spells out there where you're still screwed even if you make the save. I agree strongly with mundane stealth being very useful, but make sure to try and cover your bases against all form of detection - tremorsense, blindsense, and blindsight don't care much about your hide/move silently checks, and at even higher levels of optimization it's very tough to beat stuff like touchsight, lifesense, and mindsight.

I'd also encourage you to draw some clear lines about how mundane you want the character to be. While ExFighter is cool in its own way, for instance, I've always found it to be irrelevant as an example in the mundane versus caster type discussions, because it's main schtick is basically achieved by using character wealth to buy various magical stuff to turn it into a protean. The Cube was mentioned in a similar thread, and while my understanding of The Cube is very limited, I believe its whole schtick is extremely efficient use of character wealth to become an incredible killing as a commoner. What The Cube and ExFighter have in common is that their power base comes from character wealth, and not from class abilities. Which is why many anti-caster builds, including the two mentioned, aren't so much mundane versus caster, but character wealth versus caster. I'm certainly not saying using character wealth to achieve your goals is bad, I'm just pointing out that the less you rely on class abilities and the more you rely on magic purchased with character wealth, the less interesting the character becomes.

[Masakan]

Sadly the only thing that can defeat magic is....well magic. HOWEVER, that does not mean that both magic users have to be prolific in the same type of magic or even on the same level.

So it is in fact very possible for an assassin who only knows as high as level 2 spells, to defeat a level 10 wizard.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Okay, that title sounds ugly but it can only be so long. Say you want to build a character to efficiently take out mages, tunnel-vision to the max. Without any excessive cheese on either end, can you build a non-spellcasting mage-hate character to be better at taking out mages than if you just built a mage to take out other mages? It always seemed to me that WotC gave us a noteable amount of spell(caster) hate and I started to wonder how exploitable bringing it all together could be. If still inferior to a counter-mage-mage, how good would a magehater it in general?

Ultimately, the answer to your question is "no." You cannot make a non-caster than can defeat casters more reliably than another caster. It's simply not possible with the games rules as they are.

Can you build a non-caster capable of taking down casters at all? Yes, but it's exceedingly difficult if the casters are being played at all optimally.

[gorfnab]

That said, there are a number of ways to 'mundanely' prevent spellcasting without depending on AMF, which would be where I would start. The primary mechanics would probably come from the PrCs Occult Slayer[CW] and Witch Slayer[ToM]. The Arcane Ranger ACF [CM] would be about the only other thematic addition that leaps to mind excepting 'spellcaster solutions to spellcasters'. Unfortunately, favored enemy does not innately add much that would be of use to us (unless there are feat combinations I am unaware of).

This chasis would probably need support from standard reach-mongering (Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Thicket of Blades, Size enhancement). It would also need to stack protective items to prevent as much of spellcasting toolkit from scrying/etc as possible; AMF may be a reasonable option to stack on everything else but then you need to find class feature non-detection, etc.
I actually made a build a while back based on this.

1. Ranger - B: Track, Weapon Focus: Guisarme, Arcane Hunter ACF
2. Barbarian - Spirit Totem: Lion ACF, Whirling Frenzy ACF, {Optional: City Brawler ACF (Drg#349)}
3. Barbarian - Nemisis: Arcanists, Wolf Totem ACF
4. Warblade
5. Warblade
6. Warblade - Mage Slayer
7. Warblade
8. Warblade - B: Improved Initiative
9. Crusader - Blindfight
10. Crusader
11. Occult Slayer
12. Occult Slayer - Combat Reflexes
13. Occult Slayer
14. Occult Slayer
15. Occult Slayer - Pierce Magical Concealment
16. Witch Slayer
17. Witch Slayer
18. Witch Slayer - Stand Still
19. Witch Slayer
20. Witch Slayer

Note: The levels of Occult Slayer and Witch Slayer can be switched around as needed.

Warblade nets you the maneuvers Iron Heart Surge, Moment of Perfect Mind, and Action Before Thought. You also get Uncanny Dodge

Crusader nets you the Thicket of Blade Stance (combos nicely with Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon; wear spiked gauntlets or armor spikes to threaten nearby squares) and some healing maneuvers. it also nets you Indomitable Soul.

Witch Slayer nets you Mettle and Slippery Mind.

If playing human take EWP: Spiked Chain and WF: Spiked Chain instead of Guisarme.


Otherwise Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/witch-hunter) has the Witch Hunter (it's a 3rd party class though). It seems to have some potential anti-mage abilities.

[Taveena]

Okay so, for sake of argument, what's the best a mundane could do to achieve these things?

Tracking and some sort of magic item for actual detection
From meta character design, perhaps some sort of racian nondetection? I feel as though I've read through races that have effects like this.
Some sort of infiltrator/sneak attack deal perhaps? Your goal would likely have to be to get the first swing, and then second by rolling high initiative, bursting them down with your big damage
For this one, which of these protections would a mage have for a 24 hour span? Ideally we'd be avoiding anything he/she would activate mid-encounter


A Ranger with Favored Enemy (Arcanists) and the Nemesis feat can do 1. Vecna Blooded template ought to do 2. Personally I'd recommend just power attacking as hard as possible with Mage Slayer/Pierce Magical Protection/Pierce Magical Concealment. PMP is really great because it dispels a lot of other abilities where the AC bonus is secondary. Favored Power Attack with Leap Attack/Shock Trooper works.

To an extent.

See, Hide Life means you're not targeting the caster themselves for much the same reason the Lich is an obstacle more than the main goal. Bringing them to 0 negates one of their advantages, but it's not enough. Celerity into Dimension Door is not something you have any way to counter. So they need to be flat-footed and STAY flat-footed.

You need a sky-high touch AC and overwhelmingly good saves in all stats, and ultimately what you're looking for is the bodypart.

Killing a mage is possible. Killing ANY mage, with a single build... almost certainly not.

Also, does the Whisper Gnome build have a way to beat Tremorsense or Blindsight? P sure those are on the table with Alter Self forms...

[Azoth]

Banishing weapons get rid of summons 3/day

Binding weapons 2/day 10 minute dimension anchor on strike.

Those are two necessary enchants for a mage hunters weapon.

Astral Tracker (if I remember the feat name correctly) let's you use survival to track enemies across planes if they run before you hit the with your binding weapon.

I have a bunch of notes I will look at later for more ideas to help.

[Rebel7284]

Also, does the Whisper Gnome build have a way to beat Tremorsense or Blindsight? P sure those are on the table with Alter Self forms...

Well first of all, it has a free feat, so Darkstalker is one answer. However, Alter Self doesn't grant these.


You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.

Darkstalker might still be good against mages of certain races which DO have extra sensory modes.

However, after further consideration, grappling just doesn't seem like the best solution while small. At least not the best general solution. Murdering the mage faster seems like a better solution. With that in mind, I present to you low level mage slayer 2.0.

Dark (LA bought off) Whisper Gnome
Spellthief 1/Wildshape, Arcane Hunter, Champion of the Wild Ranger 5

1. Silencing Strike
2. Track (B)
3. Free.
5. Improved Trip (B)
6. Mage Slayer

Combat:
1. Turn into a Fleshraker.
2. Charge and attack with 3 attacks with silence, steal spell, and dex poison. If any attacks hit, you also trip and then, if successful, grapple.
3. Win.

You also have an animal companion to help unless you trade it away.

[sovin_ndore]

I actually made a build a while back based on this.

1. Ranger - B: Track, Weapon Focus: Guisarme, Arcane Hunter ACF
2. Barbarian - Spirit Totem: Lion ACF, Whirling Frenzy ACF, {Optional: City Brawler ACF (Drg#349)}
3. Barbarian - Nemisis: Arcanists, Wolf Totem ACF
4. Warblade
5. Warblade
6. Warblade - Mage Slayer
7. Warblade
8. Warblade - B: Improved Initiative
9. Crusader - Blindfight
10. Crusader
11. Occult Slayer
12. Occult Slayer - Combat Reflexes
13. Occult Slayer
14. Occult Slayer
15. Occult Slayer - Pierce Magical Concealment
16. Witch Slayer
17. Witch Slayer
18. Witch Slayer - Stand Still
19. Witch Slayer
20. Witch Slayer

Note: The levels of Occult Slayer and Witch Slayer can be switched around as needed.

Warblade nets you the maneuvers Iron Heart Surge, Moment of Perfect Mind, and Action Before Thought. You also get Uncanny Dodge

Crusader nets you the Thicket of Blade Stance (combos nicely with Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon; wear spiked gauntlets or armor spikes to threaten nearby squares) and some healing maneuvers. it also nets you Indomitable Soul.

Witch Slayer nets you Mettle and Slippery Mind.

If playing human take EWP: Spiked Chain and WF: Spiked Chain instead of Guisarme.


Otherwise Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/witch-hunter) has the Witch Hunter (it's a 3rd party class though). It seems to have some potential anti-mage abilities.
Yep, pretty much exactly the direction I was thinking of going in. Did you ever have opportunity to play that character? If so, how did it work out for you?

[Flickerdart]

*be a fleshraker*
Interesting thought - dumping a fleshraker onto a low-op low-level wizard is definitely effective, but if the caster is at a similar level of optimization, how well would that work? You'd be facing down Abrupt Jaunt at a minimum, as well as CoDZillas on the divine side. How well will "be a dinosaur" work against the druid that gets two?

The build also seems very front-loaded, especially with losing spellcasting. I think a character relying only on Su, Sp, and Ex abilities could pull its weight until about level 10 in lower op, but this doesn't seem to scale too well.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

At the right op level there's a brief window where a character that went straight into ToM Witch Slayer and gets their Momentary Disjunction capstone they're better at caster killing than casters. This is of course assuming they can get in the same room as the caster.

[Deadline]

Vecna Blooded template ought to do 2.

It can, but the problem is you have to be capable of casting 2nd level arcane spells in order to be Vecna-blooded. That kind of kills the "mundane" aspect.

[Inevitability]

It can, but the problem is you have to be capable of casting 2nd level arcane spells in order to be Vecna-blooded. That kind of kills the "mundane" aspect.

How about taking Magical Training followed by Precocious Apprentice, then never actually cast any spells?

[Deadline]

How about taking Magical Training followed by Precocious Apprentice, then never actually cast any spells?

Not sure if setting two feats on fire to pretend not to have any magical talent is acceptable to the OP, but maybe. Frankly, I'm not sure that what the OP wants is all that possible, at least when speaking about casters with a modicum of optimization. It might be better just to ask the DM if you could apply Vecna Blooded without the casting requirement (or a refluffed version that does effectively the same thing but utilizing a different God - one who hates magic?).

[supersonic29]

*returns, one heavy dose of life later*

I'm so excited to see this moving along like this. Let me see if I'm missing anything...

At LA 2 you can grab Karsite and resist spells pretty well, but the hard to turn down alternative is whisper gnome for some racial/feat silencing on sneak attacks. Enchanted weapons can get us teleport anchoring if we can just make that first hit. Foresight is pretty hard to beat if we were dealing with 9th level spells, but that's a tier one can't hope to deal with anyways. Shadow template makes sneaking in a heck of a lot easier until magical detection comes into play... Is that solved in one of the features of any of the aforementioned mage-hate classes? Sorry, lot of content to catch up on here.

[jiriku]

I think a character relying only on Su, Sp, and Ex abilities could pull its weight until about level 10 in lower op, but this doesn't seem to scale too well.

A lot of campaigns never see 11th level. Being effective early and lasting through the first half of the non-epic range would probably be perfectly acceptable in many situations.

[Deadline]

*returns, one heavy dose of life later*

I'm so excited to see this moving along like this. Let me see if I'm missing anything...

At LA 2 you can grab Karsite and resist spells pretty well, but the hard to turn down alternative is whisper gnome for some racial/feat silencing on sneak attacks. Enchanted weapons can get us teleport anchoring if we can just make that first hit. Foresight is pretty hard to beat if we were dealing with 9th level spells, but that's a tier one can't hope to deal with anyways. Shadow template makes sneaking in a heck of a lot easier until magical detection comes into play... Is that solved in one of the features of any of the aforementioned mage-hate classes? Sorry, lot of content to catch up on here.

There is a big one you'll need, and that's "Beat the caster to initiative." Now, that's not really a thing you'll be able to do (casters are just better at getting great initiative mods, or outright just going first/being impossible to survive). But optimizing your initiative is still going to be handy against less optimized casters (i.e. ones who don't also optimize initiative or use one of several spells to improve initiative or to just go first).

[supersonic29]

For those who questioned the main intent, it was to see how far you can take the idea of being a mage-bane without just getting into a wizard v wizard magical joust. I'm not aware of what those feats are like in their magic-net, but even something like assassin I think could be fair enough. Never understood why those guys had spells anyways. Knowing Vecna blooded is an option, is there any reasonable class-feature or magic item lying around with comparable divination resistance?

On the subject of initiative, what are the popular, cheap in gold/feats ways to steroid initiative without being a caster? Or is it wiser to try and boost dex outright for the also-important touch AC? Maybe even just trying to keep some potions for that on hand could be smart?

Also, is whisper gnome unanimously a better choice, or is there an argument for Karsite?

[illyahr]

On the subject of initiative, what are the popular, cheap in gold/feats ways to steroid initiative without being a caster? Or is it wiser to try and boost dex outright for the also-important touch AC? Maybe even just trying to keep some potions for that on hand could be smart?

Also, is whisper gnome unanimously a better choice, or is there an argument for Karsite?

Improved initiative is the only one I know that doesn't require serious investment, but there might be magic items that improve it. Boost both, if you can.

It depends on what you want. Whisper gnomes are better at getting to the caster undetected. Boost your initiative as high as possible and you might be able to OTK your target before they can react. Karsites will stand up a little better once combat begins, especially if you can find a way to boost their 15 + HD Spell Resistance. Each fizzle heals a karsite 2 x fizzled spell's level, so they have a bit of staying power.

[Flickerdart]

A lot of campaigns never see 11th level. Being effective early and lasting through the first half of the non-epic range would probably be perfectly acceptable in many situations.
Right, that's what I'm saying - fleshraker dude has a very narrow operational range that doesn't even span the first 10 levels.

[jiriku]

On the subject of initiative, what are the popular, cheap in gold/feats ways to steroid initiative without being a caster? Or is it wiser to try and boost dex outright for the also-important touch AC? Maybe even just trying to keep some potions for that on hand could be smart?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?113349-Pimping-Initiative-through-Items

[Rebel7284]

Right, that's what I'm saying - fleshraker dude has a very narrow operational range that doesn't even span the first 10 levels.

Fleshraker dude does have some ways to remain relevant such as jumping straight into Witch Slayer (Momentary Disjunction before Fleshraker pounce is nice), or alternatively something like Warshaper to make the Fleshraker much scarier. I feel it quickly becomes a quest of trying to get all the right items though as spellcasters keep growing in power exponentially. Of course we all know it becomes a lost battle before long for anyone not using spells.

I do wish I had an easy way to pick up an extra fighter feat before level 6 though, Pierce Magical Protection is nice and the pesky 3 BAB requirement for Mage Slayer keeps getting in the way. :)

[Mr Adventurer]

I think a core part of the problem is, what can a mundane build possibly get within two additional character levels which is better for these purposes than a new level of spells?

The answer is nothing of course...

[supersonic29]

Of course whatever you do won't be broadly better than a wizard or what have you, magic is insane. The goal would be to take down mages as efficiently as possible for as long as possible. A lot of campaigns don't hit level 10, and after 10 is usually where taking down a mage without magic becomes a foolhardy goal. The actual background context I had with this idea was to build a character that I could, as a DM, throw at magic-heavy parties (likely far from optimized) to take them down a notch. And also it could be applied as a PC to a setting that for some reason has tons of magic naturally, which could be fun for a blue moon.

[Nifft]

Magic is such a fundamental part of the setting, it feels a bit like asking for characters who don't have hands and feel "hand-hate" so they try to beat up people with hands.

You're just not going to be effective if you deny yourself a big swath of the game's resources.

Now, an anti-mage who has access to Clerical or Druidic magic, that's a very different story. Then it's more like... I have no hands, but I have tentacles and claws instead.

- - -

For a Binder build, maybe look into Poison use. You can do some fun stuff with poisons.

[Inevitability]

Okay, let me try something...

First, get a +99 bonus to sleight of hand on both yourself and your cohort. This will be hard, but magical items (we are allowed those, right?) should get you here. In addition, get a +119 bonus to balance checks for both of you and buy an Eversmoking Bottle. Finally, get a +159 bonus to diplomacy.

Use the infamous Lightning Thief combo to move yourself and your cohort an infinite distance in a single turn.

You can now get close to any spellcasters before they are able to react. If they are in the air or behind strong defenses, you can balance on the smoke from your bottle to get up there. If they are on other planes, speed across the world until you find a portal to another plane, and continue your search to them from there. Sigil in particular should have a portal to your target, and you can search the entire city within six seconds.

Once you are within hearing range of your victim, diplomance him into becoming your loyal servant and command him to kill himself.

So now we have a character who moves at infinite speed, can walk on smoke, and can convince someone to become his eternal servant with a few words. And the best thing? He has no magical abilities whatsoever.

[Vhaidara]

Mind Blank shuts it down. Fanatic is mind affecting.

[Inevitability]

Mind Blank shuts it down. Fanatic is mind affecting.

Use nonmagical suggestions (epic bluff check) to make the target end mind blank.

A reasonable wording might be: "Hey, I am going to cast this really awesome buff spell on you, so would you mind dropping that defensive spell for a second? It will be worth it, I promise.".

[Vhaidara]

How are you beating his Sense Motive of +NI? Especially with the extra 50 he just picked up from you attempting to Instill a Suggestion?

Also, what about his familiar/cohort/Ice Assassin of a Solar Concubine, when it makes the DC 25 Sense Motive check and warns him he is being swayed as if by an enchantment?

This is identical to the effect of the suggestion spell, except that it is nonmagical and lasts for only 10 minutes. It can be sensed as if it were an enchantment effect (Sense Motive DC 25).

Also, what about the part where the Wizard is a PC and therefore immune to Diplomacy?

Also, what about the part where the GM's entire bookshelf was just thrown at your head?

[Mr Adventurer]

How are you beating his Sense Motive of +NI? Especially with the extra 50 he just picked up from you attempting to Instill a Suggestion?

Also, what about his familiar/cohort/Ice Assassin of a Solar Concubine, when it makes the DC 25 Sense Motive check and warns him he is being swayed as if by an enchantment?

Well I mean that stuff is obviously-


Also, what about the part where the GM's entire bookshelf was just thrown at your head?

0_o

[Forrestfire]

Magic is such a fundamental part of the setting, it feels a bit like asking for characters who don't have hands and feel "hand-hate" so they try to beat up people with hands.

Well, monks do make unarmed strikes :smallwink:

[supersonic29]

Okay, let me try something...

First, get a +99 bonus to sleight of hand on both yourself and your cohort. This will be hard, but magical items (we are allowed those, right?) should get you here. In addition, get a +119 bonus to balance checks for both of you and buy an Eversmoking Bottle. Finally, get a +159 bonus to diplomacy.

Use the infamous Lightning Thief combo to move yourself and your cohort an infinite distance in a single turn.

You can now get close to any spellcasters before they are able to react. If they are in the air or behind strong defenses, you can balance on the smoke from your bottle to get up there. If they are on other planes, speed across the world until you find a portal to another plane, and continue your search to them from there. Sigil in particular should have a portal to your target, and you can search the entire city within six seconds.

Once you are within hearing range of your victim, diplomance him into becoming your loyal servant and command him to kill himself.

So now we have a character who moves at infinite speed, can walk on smoke, and can convince someone to become his eternal servant with a few words. And the best thing? He has no magical abilities whatsoever.

I love this regardless of whatever counter-cheese says it doesn't work. It's a fine sandwich of many cheeses.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Well, monks do make unarmed strikes :smallwink:

and they're worse than most martials at fighting other martials, so the analogy holds perfectly.

[Sir Chuckles]

I love this regardless of whatever counter-cheese says it doesn't work. It's a fine sandwich of many cheeses.

At this point it's not even a cheese sandwich. It's a whole emmental wheel wedged between some goat cheddar and being called a sandwich.

Also, no hands?
Stump Knives Tiger Claw time!

[Inevitability]

At this point it's not even a cheese sandwich. It's a whole emmental wheel wedged between some goat cheddar and being called a sandwich.

I would really, really like to sig that. Can I?

[Togo]

I usually use Master of Many forms for my mage-hunting needs. Go into it via wildshape ranger, using the spellless option if that's what you're worried about. It gives you the big thing that you need for mage hunting, which is versatility. You can end up with a wider range of possible powers than a wizard does, and still trigger an antimagic item if you need to. It's not foolproof, but it's the best I've found.

In practice, the easiest way to kill a wizard is to give their player a lot of internet optimisation articles, and then let them kill themselves doing something theoretically optimal but a poor idea in practice - like ice assassining powerful outsiders and expecting noone to object to that. It's easy to confuse Theoretical Optimisation with what works in practice in a given game.

[Sir Chuckles]

I would really, really like to sig that. Can I?

Go for it.