Sage Advice - 2015-09-21

[DanyBallon]

For those who haven't seen it, the latest edition of SA is out.

Sage Advice - 2015-09-21 (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/rules-answers-september-2015)

[RenaldoS]

That fast hands ruling is frankly bizarre. I understand the rules in the DMG explicitly forbid that interaction, but it's strange that applying a magical oil is an action but pouring mundane oil on the ground can be a bonus action.

[CNagy]

Applying a magical oil is like applying sun tan lotion; you're literally rubbing it on. I can see why that would take more time than just dumping it on the ground. Edit: though I guess by that logic, it is bizarre that you can use a Healer's Kit as a bonus action.

[RenaldoS]

You could apply the same logic to the healer's kit and yet that is allowed as a bonus action.

[pwykersotz]

That fast hands ruling is frankly bizarre. I understand the rules in the DMG explicitly forbid that interaction, but it's strange that applying a magical oil is an action but pouring mundane oil on the ground can be a bonus action.

Well, your example isn't one of equivalencies either. Applying an oil to an object is different from dropping it on the ground. And I'd say that if there was a magic item that activated by opening a door (an explicit example of object interaction), then yes, you could use that particular item with fast hands. But the line between "use a mundane item" and "activate a magical power of an item" seems pretty clearly defined to me. Probably just a difference of those preconceptions of "how game works". :smallsmile:

[RenaldoS]

The real problem I think is that "Use an Object" is such an ambiguous name for an action and yet it is apparently pretty specific.

[TrollCapAmerica]

Its supposed to be a meta-game balancing thing obviously. Fortunately 5E seems to encourage us to ignore dumb rules and this seems like one of them

[TopCheese]

I think they need to remove all instances of melee or ranged from weapons and just let weapons be weapons. If I throw a greatsword, it is a ranged weapon. Improvised ranged weapon but a ranged weapon none-the-less. Stop with the finicky rules and just have DM/Players deal with it like they have them deal with other things.

I would love to have a captain America character who has archery style, and it be acceptable in core/AL.

[CNagy]

The item rule is straightforward enough; usually Use an Item is an action, and a lot of the descriptions of activations for items say they take an action. It's easy for us to make the logical hop to equate the two, but the book never says it. The DMG goes out of its way to disabuse us of the notion. So Thief's Fast Hands doesn't override the specific instructions in magic item descriptions. Makes sense--those would have to be some super fast hands to take an oil that takes 10 minutes to apply and get it done as a bonus action.

[RenaldoS]

An oil was a bad example. A better example is something like the decanter of endless water. It says it takes an action + command word to unstop the flask and start the flow. Not being able to use fast hands to do that is weird.

[TopCheese]

I think they should have just made a *Fast Hands* tag for magic items. Then some items, ones that make sense like oils or decanter of endless water, could be used with fast hands while wands and such could not.

[Jurai]

Can you cast darkness with a higher level slot to end a spell of 3rd level or higher that creates light? No. The darkness spell can dispel only a light-creating spell of 2nd level or lower, no matter what spell slot is used for darkness. Similarly, the daylight spell can dispel only a darkness-creating spell of 3rd level or lower, regardless of the spell slot used.

That seems ridiculously counter-intuitive and an utterly archaic ruling considering you can cast Fireball in a higher slot for more damage.

[pibby]

WotC just didn't want the rogue to be drinking potions of healing between sneak attacks, it would be seen as broken in AL. That's my conspiracy theory.

[TopCheese]

That seems ridiculously counter-intuitive and an utterly archaic ruling considering you can cast Fireball in a higher slot for more damage.

Right? It's like they made rules and then later made rulings without reading their own rules or thought in the rules... And we are back to 3e...


WotC just didn't want the rogue to be drinking potions of healing between sneak attacks, it would be seen as broken in AL. That's my conspiracy theory.

Fast Hands + Healer Kit works still...

A lot of things are considered broken in AL and I just laugh and tell them I'll show them what legally broken REALLY is.

[Coidzor]

That seems ridiculously counter-intuitive and an utterly archaic ruling considering you can cast Fireball in a higher slot for more damage.

Quite. The only thing I can think of is that it's supposed to cut down on having to determine or keep in mind what slot such spells were cast out of to avoid people casting Darkness out of a 9th level spell slot as part of some kind of Darkness Vs. Light effect arms race.


WotC just didn't want the rogue to be drinking potions of healing between sneak attacks, it would be seen as broken in AL. That's my conspiracy theory.

Ugh.


The item rule is straightforward enough; usually Use an Item is an action, and a lot of the descriptions of activations for items say they take an action. It's easy for us to make the logical hop to equate the two, but the book never says it. The DMG goes out of its way to disabuse us of the notion. So Thief's Fast Hands doesn't override the specific instructions in magic item descriptions. Makes sense--those would have to be some super fast hands to take an oil that takes 10 minutes to apply and get it done as a bonus action.

That seems a bit strawmanny, since Fast Hands doesn't work with mundane items that take 10 minutes to use either, so 10 minute activation time magic items would already have been right out. Or are there some rules or rules clarifications I'm missing here? :smallconfused:

[MaxWilson]

That seems ridiculously counter-intuitive and an utterly archaic ruling considering you can cast Fireball in a higher slot for more damage.

Yet another ruling that I plan to completely ignore in favor of RAW, just because there's no good reason not to follow RAW here.

[MeeposFire]

I think the whole idea whrer they back tracked to make sure you could not use fast hands with magic items is just silly. Yes it could be situationally powerful but for the most part it would be so expensive in both money, charges, and attunement slots that it balances out for the most part. The idea that a rogue could do something very powerful every once in a great while seems just right to me. I just think this choice that they went and "fixed" in the DMG was too much of knee jerk reaction.

[CNagy]

That seems a bit strawmanny, since Fast Hands doesn't work with mundane items that take 10 minutes to use either, so 10 minute activation time magic items would already have been right out. Or are there some rules or rules clarifications I'm missing here? :smallconfused:

Depends on your definition of strawman, I suppose, considering that applying oils was the original example given. There are no oils that can be applied in less than a minute, and only the oil of slipperiness can be poured in one action. While it was later acknowledge to be a bad example, that was after my replies so I fail to see where I constructed an argument that no one made and proceeded to refute it.

Additionally, since you brought it up, there are no mundane items that I've seen which have a use time more than 1 action, with the exception of setting a fire from a tinderbox when you aren't lighting something with abundant and exposed fuel (I'm going to go ahead and assume that "any other fire" doesn't imply you could like stone on fire after a minute of persistence with the tinderbox, because otherwise... whoa.)

Reading a bunch of item descriptions and then a bunch of magic item descriptions, it makes sense that people would conflate the use of them under the same action. And I suppose that's why the DMG explicitly states that activating magic items doesn't fall under Use an Object. Sure, that seems odd with some items--but going through and individually adjudicating which items can be subject to one class's ability to use items as a bonus action doesn't really fit with 5e's design philosophy.

[Person_Man]

The Sage Advice articles highlight the biggest overall problem with 5E - simulationist fiddlyness.

They made lots and lots and lots of small fiddly rules in order to make a large number of distinctions between the overly large number of different weapons, different armors, different races, different classes, different classes, etc. But really, the game would have been a lot easier to play and (for me) more fun if it had far fewer rules. That way, making a choice between different mechanics would represent real tactical choices (and not just a very minor benefit), and I could just roleplay any similationist difference.

Having said that, it's still my favorite version of D&D. I just wish that the core rules were more streamlined, and then they could release a bunch of fiddly nonsense (because I do recognize that it has a lot of fans) in the splat books.

[MaxWilson]

The Sage Advice articles highlight the biggest overall problem with 5E - simulationist fiddlyness.

The Fast Hands ruling is the opposite of simulationist. It's gamist--apparently made for balance reasons only. A simulationist looks at Fast Hands and says, "If you can disarm a lock with your bonus action, and you can spread a bag of caltrops over 5' with a bonus action, and you can administer first aid with a bonus action, you can certainly pour a potion down your own throat with a bonus action." A gamist says, "But drinking potions as a bonus action is too powerful!"

[JAL_1138]

The Fast Hands ruling is the opposite of simulationist. It's gamist--apparently made for balance reasons only. A simulationist looks at Fast Hands and says, "If you can disarm a lock with your bonus action, and you can spread a bag of caltrops over 5' with a bonus action, and you can administer first aid with a bonus action, you can certainly pour a potion down your own throat with a bonus action." A gamist says, "But drinking potions as a bonus action is too powerful!"

Agreed.

I plan on allowing potions as bonus actions in AL games I run until I see for sure if it ends up too strong (or until the organizer gets onto me about it, which is also possible) for the aforementioned simulationist reasons. If you can pick a lock, you can drink a potion. But, as a concession to gamism, if it does end up too strong (it probably won't) I'll disallow it.

[jkat718]

Yet another ruling that I plan to completely ignore in favor of RAW, just because there's no good reason not to follow RAW here.

The RAW doesn't mention dispelling anything but 2 level or lower spells. Keep in mind that Crawford never said you can't cast Darkness in a higher level slot, just that it has no greater effect when you do.

[KorvinStarmast]

That seems ridiculously counter-intuitive and an utterly archaic ruling considering you can cast Fireball in a higher slot for more damage. A thoughtful explanation of the dynamics is here (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/q/61997/22566), and accounts for what Sage Advice has formally spelled out, though it was commented on by Mr Crawford almost a year ago. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/524712732528873472)