Shirt of Wraith Stalking VS Lich with Detect Magic

[Barbarian Horde]

Shirt of Wraith Stalking pg. 217 (MIC) VS Lich with Detect Magic.
Need a ruling to see if Lich could find you using detect magic.

[Mehangel]

I would say no, but if the Lich cannot make the ridiculously low DC, I think the Lich has bigger issues.

EDIT: Apparently, the item doesn't even allow a save.. Thats strange.

[Barbarian Horde]

Ahh but this armor doesnt allow for a will save. Specifically states that its negated even if the creature is intelligent.

SHIRT OF
WRAITH STALKING
Price (Item Level): 6,000 gp (10th)
Body Slot: Torso
Caster Level: 3rd
Aura: Faint; (DC 16) abjuration
Activation: Standard (mental)
Weight: 1 lb.
This shiny black leather shirt bears small
golden sun and skull emblems around its collar,
shoulders, and cuffs.
When you activate a shirt of wraith stalking,
you gain the benefi t of a hide from undead
spell at will, except that undead are not
allowed a saving throw regardless of their
Intelligence.
Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item,
hide from undead, possession of a piece
of the set.
Cost to Create: 3,000 gp, 240 XP, 6 days

[ZamielVanWeber]

They would detect the aura of the item and know that something magical was in the 60 foot cone, but other than that they would have no information.

[ahenobarbi]

Yes, the lich can find out about the magic item using Detect Magic. However they need to be concentrating on the spell (Arcane Sight is much better) and the user of Shirt of Wraith Stalking must have not taken any steps to hide the aura (lead coated clothing (from Complete Scoundrel IIRC) or Magic Aura spell seem to be the easiest ways to counter it).

[SangoProduction]

"Even extraordinary or supernatural sensory capabilities, such as blindsense, blindsight, scent, and tremorsense, cannot detect or locate warded creatures. "

While it doesn't specifically ward off magical detection, I would count magic as supernatural, hiding at least the creature. [Although, in that world, everything is natural...so...our definitions for this stuff is kinda null.]

By raw, it offers no protection for the equipment, neither does the spell. But if you think about it, it means to undead, there's a walking suit of armor and stuff, which for unintelligent undead is fine (except when they attack anything that moves), but intelligent undead....well....why do they need a will save? They can see you, even if they can't see "you".

Which then begs the question, what makes you, "you"? And for that, we need to investigate the philosophy of the self, which says.......................................... [OK, this last bit was a joke, mostly, but yeah, it doesn't make much sense as a spell, if it doesn't cover your clothing.]

[Mehangel]

"Even extraordinary or supernatural sensory capabilities, such as blindsense, blindsight, scent, and tremorsense, cannot detect or locate warded creatures. "

While it doesn't specifically ward off magical detection, I would count magic as supernatural, hiding at least the creature. [Although, in that world, everything is natural...so...our definitions for this stuff is kinda null.]

Two words to support this belief: 'Undead Disenchanter' (Disenchanter found in Fiend Folio page 62). The disenchanter has a supernatural ability a constant detect magic. If this isn't a supernatural sensory capability, I dont know what is. If the shirt would protect against an Undead Disenchanter, it should also work against castings of Detect Undead also.

[Barbarian Horde]

Yeah see this is why RAW can frustrating when it doesn't clarify. This is in reference to the shirt.

[Crake]

Arcane sight (because what kind of a lich doesn't have that permanencied anyway? pfft detect magic) doesn't detect creatures, so it's not affected by hide from undead, since it's just picking up the magical auras. This is of course why spells like Nystul's Magic Aura were invented though.

[SangoProduction]

Arcane sight (because what kind of a lich doesn't have that permanencied anyway? pfft detect magic) doesn't detect creatures, so it's not affected by hide from undead, since it's just picking up the magical auras. This is of course why spells like Nystul's Magic Aura were invented though.

But, if we are to assume "the creature" includes the gear intrinsically (else the spell doesn't make sense), and the aura is a property of the gear...

[Crake]

But, if we are to assume "the creature" includes the gear intrinsically (else the spell doesn't make sense), and the aura is a property of the gear...

Again though, it's not detecting the creature itself, but rather the magical aura of the creature/it's gear. Hide from Undead only stops senses that detect the creatures directly. They would basically see a moving blob of magic (assuming the players have the typical christmas tree of magic items on them).

[Mehangel]

Again though, it's not detecting the creature itself, but rather the magical aura of the creature/it's gear. Hide from Undead only stops senses that detect the creatures directly. They would basically see a moving blob of magic (assuming the players have the typical christmas tree of magic items on them).

Again, I think the issue with this thinking is that it brings the fallacy that Hide from Undead only hides the creature not the equipment it may or may not be wearing. Thus a lich may not see the creature but would instead see animated clothing moving about. I am of the strict opinion that detect magic, arcane sight, true seeing, etc cast by undead would not reveal or aid in the revealing of creatures under the effect of Hide from Undead.

[SangoProduction]

Again though, it's not detecting the creature itself, but rather the magical aura of the creature/it's gear. Hide from Undead only stops senses that detect the creatures directly. They would basically see a moving blob of magic (assuming the players have the typical christmas tree of magic items on them).

So, the spell not work, because of sounds like breathing, are not the creatures directly? Well, actually, it specifically says it can not hear them. If we are going by your definition, boots scraping against the floor will still be heard, because it's not them, it's their boots.

Of course, how direct is "not directly"? One has to ask.

[AvatarVecna]

Undead cannot see, hear, or smell the warded creatures. Even extraordinary or supernatural sensory capabilities, such as blindsense, blindsight, scent, and tremorsense, cannot detect or locate warded creatures. Nonintelligent undead creatures are automatically affected and act as though the warded creatures are not there. An intelligent undead creature gets a single Will saving throw. If it fails, the subject can’t see any of the warded creatures. However, if it has reason to believe unseen opponents are present, it can attempt to find or strike them. If a warded creature attempts to turn or command undead, touches an undead creature, or attacks any creature (even with a spell), the spell ends for all recipients.Undead cannot see, hear, or smell the target. This means that they can still taste the target (if they happen to try and taste the area the target is in, for some reason), and they can still feel the target (such as by bumping into them, or waving an object through a square to try and detect unseen creatures). Furthermore, undead cannot use extraordinary or supernatural sensory capabilities to detect the target; this means that any sensory capability that isn't extraordinary or supernatural can be used to detect the creature; this includes all spell-like abilities capable of detection, and any abilities that are not extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like in nature (such as spellcasting).

Thus, Hide Undead does not on its own protect you from Detect Magic, Arcane Sight, or any similar effects.

EDIT: Also, the item would probably not negate Foresight either; Foresight gives you a spell-based sixth sense, which probably lets the Lich bypass Hide From Undead even if they fail (or aren't allowed to make) the save.

[SangoProduction]

"Can not do such and such. Even such and such."
Even is typically used as "This is an example of things that they can not use to detect them with."
For instance, "I can do anything. Even while swimming."
That doesn't mean I suddenly can do anything, only so long as it involves swimming. Swimming was a mere example.

Of course, I already admitted that it did not *explicitly* hide from magic, or even explicitly hide gear. (However, if it didn't do the latter, the spell just doesn't make much sense...and undead are kinda creatures of magic....)

[Mehangel]

Undead cannot see, hear, or smell the target. This means that they can still taste the target (if they happen to try and taste the area the target is in, for some reason), and they can still feel the target (such as by bumping into them, or waving an object through a square to try and detect unseen creatures).
No, I am pretty sure that touchsight is an extraordinary/supernatural sense that Hide from Undead includes. In addition, I am pretty sure that creatures like snakes (which have scent) detect creatures not through smell but through taste, so that wont work either.


Furthermore, undead cannot use extraordinary or supernatural sensory capabilities to detect the target; this means that any sensory capability that isn't extraordinary or supernatural can be used to detect the creature; this includes all spell-like abilities capable of detection, and any abilities that are not extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like in nature (such as spellcasting).

Again, false the verbiage used was not explicitly limiting. It uses the word 'Even' when mentioning Extraordinary and Supernatural senses. So wrong in there too as the particular wording does not mean that we are limited by those factors. If a spell or spell-like ability grants a sensory ability such as sight or scent, would that sense work against the creature under the effects of Hide from Undead? I think not.



Thus, Hide Undead does not on its own protect you from Detect Magic, Arcane Sight, or any similar effects.

As I mentioned before, the Disenchanter has a constant Supernatural Sense called Detect Magic which functions as the spell. If the creature was made undead, its supernatural sense would not function to locate a creature under the effects of the spell Hide from Undead.

[SangoProduction]

As I mentioned before, the Disenchanter has a constant Supernatural Sense called Detect Magic which functions as the spell. If the creature was made undead, its supernatural sense would not function to locate a creature under the effects of the spell Hide from Undead.

The rest of your post I agree with (in fact, basically commented the same thing), but notice how the Disenchanter's sense is Supernatural. That is a change to the magical bit of it, and thus is not an argument against it not detecting magic with the actual magic spell.

[Mehangel]

The rest of your post I agree with (in fact, basically commented the same thing), but notice how the Disenchanter's sense is Supernatural. That is a change to the magical bit of it, and thus is not an argument against it not detecting magic with the actual magic spell.

My argument is that if a spell grants an undead a sense, the granted sense would not detect a creature under the effects of Hide from Undead. Thus, detect magic, being a spell that grants the supernatural sense: Detect Magic, cannot be used by undead to detect someone under the effects of the spell Hide from Undead.

[SangoProduction]

My argument is that if a spell grants an undead a sense, the granted sense would not detect a creature under the effects of Hide from Undead. Thus, detect magic, being a spell that grants the supernatural sense: Detect Magic, cannot be used by undead to detect someone under the effects of the spell Hide from Undead.

No, no. The sense is "otherwise similar to" the spell. Also, it's not undead, it's a magical beast, but that's aside the point. In the same way the Changeling's morph is "like Disguise Self". In the ways not mentioned to be changed, it is like it. The changing to (Su) was a way it changed.

[Mehangel]

No, no. The sense is "otherwise similar to" the spell. Also, it's not undead, it's a magical beast, but that's aside the point. In the same way the Changeling's morph is "like Disguise Self". In the ways not mentioned to be changed, it is like it. The changing to (Su) was a way it changed.

1st, Every time that I mentioned the Disenchanter, I specifically state if made into an undead.

2nd, If a spell granted an undead the scent ability would it work to locate a creature under the effects of Hide from Undead? If a spell granted an undead the tremorsense ability, would it work to locate a creature under the effects of the spell? If the answer to both of these questions is no, I see little reason why Detect Magic, a spell that was written before the publishing of the Fiend Folio wouldn't count as a sense granting spell. Now if the answer to these questions is Yes, then my argument fails. So, while I agree that the particular verbiage of the Disenchanter's Detect Magic and the Spell are not the same, I personally feel that this is because of the difference in time that the books were published.

[Barbarian Horde]

Undead cannot see, hear, or smell the warded creatures. Even extraordinary or supernatural sensory capabilities, such as blindsense, blindsight, scent, and tremorsense, cannot detect or locate warded creatures.

Well this is written in the first line of the spell. So I would imagine scent is out regardless. I was just under the assumption myself that as a warded creature you as a whole, including gear were removed from any method of being detected. I imagine if an undead is able to locate you after you cast hide from undead, or use that shirt; that it would completely defeat the purpose of using it in the first place.

If a undead lich is able to use magical sight to locate my magical equipment then he should be able to say hey that rogue or what ever just vanished! But wait I bet that's him standing right there with that same magical aura before. Doesn't that by default mean that he detects me?

Defining the word
Detect: Discover or identify the presence or existence of.

[AvatarVecna]

The spell doesn't say "the target is completely undetectable by undead, no matter what", it says "the target can't be detected by undead using these specific methods". Undead are prevented from seeing, hearing, or smelling the target; furthermore, extraordinary and supernatural sensory effects are also incapable of allowing undead to detect the target, with blindsense, blindsight, scent, and tremorsense being specifically called out. If the spell said "the target is completely undetectable by undead", I wouldn't be complaining, but it doesn't. It gives you a list of ways in which undead cannot detect the creature. Detect Magic is not anywhere on that list, nor is any other spell or spell-like ability. If your DM was willing to stretch the RAW to include such things by RAI, that's their decision. But by RAW, this level 1 Cleric spell does not (and by my personal RAI, should not) overcome other spells, especially more powerful spells, unless it specifically blocks such methods (such as spells granting scent or tremorsense as a supernatural ability, for example).

EDIT: Hell, the spell even specifically calls out that the undead can still consider the possibility of unseen people being present, and can still search for them as if searching for invisible creatures (such as closing all the doors, throwing around flour, casting a few Dispel Magic spells around, etc.).

[Barbarian Horde]

Undetectable only has one definition...

[AvatarVecna]

Undetectable only has one definition...

And, funnily enough, the word "undetectable" is used precisely nowhere in the spell description.

[Barbarian Horde]

Your right it says
"cannot detect or locate"

So by raw you are not allowed to detect them in any shape or form correct nor can you locate them.

[AvatarVecna]

Your right it says
"cannot detect or locate"

So by raw you are not allowed to detect them in any shape or form correct nor can you locate them.

That's only through the senses mentioned; spells aren't mentioned, so they can be used to detect you.

[Barbarian Horde]

Sense that are mentioned are examples that followed up the first statement. Third statement just clarifys that they simply cannot be detected nor located.

Well im get off I was hoping to get a decent answer, but I think I got enough to make a call now. If anyone feels they have anything else to contribute that hasn't been covered im all ears.

[AvatarVecna]

Sense that are mentioned are examples that followed up the first statement. Third statement just clarify's that they simply cannot be detected nor located.


Undead cannot see, hear, or smell the warded creatures. Even extraordinary or supernatural sensory capabilities, such as blindsense, blindsight, scent, and tremorsense, cannot detect or locate warded creatures.

The underlined part is the basic part of the spell. That's what it gives you. The italicized part mentions that neither extraordinary nor supernatural sensory capabilities can detect or locate the warded creature. The bolded part is not the base effect of the spell; the creature has not been rendered completely undetectable; it merely can't be detected using the mentioned methods. If a method isn't on the list, it bypasses this spell.

Neither spells nor spell-like abilities are on this list, as they are neither sight, hearing, or scent, and the are also neither extraordinary nor supernatural by RAW, so they bypass this spell.

EDIT:

As it's relevant to this: while my reading of RAW is that "Arcane Sight" bypasses "Hide from Undead", I'd probably rule it via RAI to not work, because "Arcane Sight" is pretty explicitly sight-based. That said, Detect Magic is not sight-based, so I'd still rule that to work...and of course, both work under my reading of RAW.

Also, I've got a question for you, OP: if you were just looking for a RAW answer, why not post this in the stickied RAW thread? Just curious.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Sense that are mentioned are examples that followed up the first statement. Third statement just clarifys that they simply cannot be detected nor located.

Well im get off I was hoping to get a decent answer, but I think I got enough to make a call now. If anyone feels they have anything else to contribute that hasn't been covered im all ears.

1) AvatarVecna is correct. By RAW that list of senses cannot be used to detect them. It then calls out all supernatural senses as well. Detect Magic is not supernatural, so it is not covered.
2) You seem to already have a preconceived notion as to what you want the answer to be...

[SangoProduction]

1st, Every time that I mentioned the Disenchanter, I specifically state if made into an undead.

2nd, If a spell granted an undead the scent ability would it work to locate a creature under the effects of Hide from Undead? If a spell granted an undead the tremorsense ability, would it work to locate a creature under the effects of the spell? If the answer to both of these questions is no, I see little reason why Detect Magic, a spell that was written before the publishing of the Fiend Folio wouldn't count as a sense granting spell. Now if the answer to these questions is Yes, then my argument fails. So, while I agree that the particular verbiage of the Disenchanter's Detect Magic and the Spell are not the same, I personally feel that this is because of the difference in time that the books were published.

Yeah, as I said, the disenchanter type thing was unimportant to the conversation. You are also seeing it backwards.
If you are warded against x, and y, but not z (again, for purpose of argument, I'm assuming not z). If z gave you a sense that is x, then you'd be protected by it, because it is x. If you have an x that acts like z, except that it acts like x, then you are still protected, because it acts like x.
However, this is not an argument that a z, acting like z, would be warded against.

To explain once more, fully, the disenchanter's thing gives an effect that is "otherwise similar to" detect magic, which means, where it says it's an (SU) (ie. acting like x), is how it is not similar to it. And thus is not a one to one comparison for the magic working as a spell, as opposed to SU.
(Also, you are just assuming that it would stop this, if it were an undead, which has not been confirmed, but as the spell stated, it stops Su senses, so I'd so it would.)

[Barbarian Horde]

Anyways okay dokie thanks guys

[Crake]

So, the spell not work, because of sounds like breathing, are not the creatures directly? Well, actually, it specifically says it can not hear them. If we are going by your definition, boots scraping against the floor will still be heard, because it's not them, it's their boots.

Of course, how direct is "not directly"? One has to ask.


Again, I think the issue with this thinking is that it brings the fallacy that Hide from Undead only hides the creature not the equipment it may or may not be wearing. Thus a lich may not see the creature but would instead see animated clothing moving about. I am of the strict opinion that detect magic, arcane sight, true seeing, etc cast by undead would not reveal or aid in the revealing of creatures under the effect of Hide from Undead.

I never said anything about 'detecting the item'. I said the spell detects magical auras. It does not detect creatures, or items, or anything else. The armor protects the creature (and by extension his items) from being sensed by the lich, but magical auras are not protected in such a way, they exist around the creature, not as part of the creature, and they are not attended like items are. This is precisely why spells like Nystul's Magic Aura exist, though i guess that still wouldn't mask any buffs cast on the wearer.

[AvatarVecna]

Supernatural Abilities is cover in the senses.

Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice.

This was sent in a private message and made a lot of sense.

That is absolutely true, all of it. That said, spells are not by RAW supernatural abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm). In fact, by RAW, spells are not extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities; that said, if you were to count them as anything, it would probably be as spell-like abilities, because spells are treated as similar to SLAs for many purposes, including that casting a spell triggers an AoO (which supernatural abilities don't trigger).

[Barbarian Horde]

Wasn't the detect magic. Their actually ability that lets them perceive the world is modified so that you don't exist in that world when it comes down to you being warded So it would be considered supernatural. As far as I can tell the text makes it clear that they cannot detect you or locate you so it's pretty clear cut.

[AvatarVecna]

Wasn't the detect magic. Their actually ability that lets them perceive the world is modified so that you don't exist in that world when it comes down to you being warded So it would be considered supernatural. As far as I can tell the text makes it clear that they cannot detect you or locate you so it's pretty clear cut.

They're not using Life Sense to detect you, because that's a stupid idea and always was. They're using Detect Magic to detect you, as is asked in the OP:


Shirt of Wraith Stalking pg. 217 (MIC) VS Lich with Detect Magic.
Need a ruling to see if Lich could find you using detect magic.

Detect Magic is, by RAW, a spell; by RAW, spells are not Supernatural Abilities, nor are they Extraordinary Abilities. Thus, Detect Magic gets around Hide from Undead. If you want to rule that it doesn't make sense, then that's fine, but by the rules of the game as they currently exist, Detect Magic trumps Hide from Undead.

[zergling.exe]

If I could throw my 2 cp in, I would say that Crake has the most convincing reasoning.

[Telok]

In previous editions Detect Magic caused magic auras to glow, a visual effect. In 3.5 that was changed. Now you detect auras, there's no sensing involved anymore, you just cast and know.

One question to ask is if a magic aura is a sort of radiance or emination or if it is a portion of the spell or magic item. If the aura is an effect of magic then I'd look to the example of an invisible light source. If the aura is an intergal part of the magic then you run into the issue that the Invisibility spell ought to make auras invisible the same way it make all the parts of an affected magic item invisible.

For more fun try figuring out what an undead using that psychic power that lets you swap senses can detect. What happens when you see touch?

[Psyren]

"Moving blob of magic somewhere in the cone" seems reasonable to me. And if you use Nystul's Magic Aura on your shirt (easy), you solve that problem. Done and one.