More Player Problems

[Kesnit]

I am running World's Largest Dungeon.

Party
S - Human Cloistered Cleric 4/Warlock 1(going into Eldritch Disciple)
B - "3rd-party book race" Ninja 4
T - Elf Sword-and-Board Fighter 5
P - Human Fighter 2/Barbarian 3

The Ninja is the closest the party has to a Rogue, but has neglected to put many points in Rogue skills, like Open Lock and Disable Device. (His OL is +6. Not 6 ranks, plus DEX. 6 total.) In the last session, the Cleric/Warlock died. Ironically, she died getting a diamond worth enough to rez her, which the party was going to do. However, S has offered to build a Rogue 4/Cleric 1 to fill the roll of Rogue and Healer. (The Cleric level is so she doesn't have to UMD Cure wands. I swear I read something about needing checks to use a wand of a spell you don't have enough CL to cast, but can't find it now.)

On one hand, I want S to do this. As it is, the party is missing out on a lot because the Ninja can't open doors, and taking a lot of damage because he can't find or disable traps. On the other hand, B likes to play Rogues and knows he's doing a bad job of it right now. Also, I know if S does build the Rogue, she'll far overshadow B's Ninja.

Which leads to the huge elephant in the room... S is my wife.

I'm thinking of giving B the chance to rebuild before next session. If he takes it, S will bring back the Cleric/Warlock. If he doesn't, S will make a Rogue. (B won't be told either of those things.) My fear here is that if S does make the Rogue, B will get annoyed, ditch the Ninja, and build a SORC. Which will open ANOTHER can of worms...

B has played a SORC before. Although he says he tracks his spells, I am not sure about that. Last time, I suspected he was using too many spell slots, but since I don't know all the spells by heart, I could never be sure when he cast a spell, what level to mark off. (In other words, I couldn't count his spells because I don't know them all.) Recently, I've caught B cheating by using his Boots of Speed more than 10 rounds/day. (I suspected it, but had not been counting rounds. S told me later that his boots lasted more rounds than 3 castings of a spell that lasts 4 rounds, which means he used the boots at least 13 times.) After that, I implemented a chip system, where each player gets a chip that represents a daily use ability (white for spells, blue for class features, red for items). P, T, and S are on-board with the chip system, but B is not, and "forgets" to give me chips when he activates his Boots, his Healing Belt, or his ki abilities.

Before anyone asks why B is still in the game - I can't play with just S and P, and T is B's friend and joined the game because B invited him. If B goes, I suspect T will as well.

[TheIronGolem]

Tell B that if he doesn't pay his chip, his stuff doesn't work. Stick to that, and make sure it applies to everyone, not just B.

And you damned well can just play with S and P, should it come to that. If you need to kick a problem player and someone else follows him, that's their choice. You can run a perfectly good game with two players. Let them have two characters each, toss in a helpful NPC or two, or just scale down the encounters. There's no reason you can't make it work.

[BowStreetRunner]

I hate to suggest something petty, but one of these days it might be nice if you were to put B in a one-on-one encounter with some minor monster - catch him at some point when he gets separated from the party. Then start to 'forget' to mark off hit points from the monster when he damages it. At some point he will start to ask 'how is this thing not dead yet?' and you just go 'Oh, did I forget to deduct hit points when you hit it? Well, that's okay since you do the same sort of thing to me all the time.' :P

[prufock]

Sorry if I'm stating the obvious, but isn't the simple solution here just to rez your wife's character and let B retrain skill points? And if it's really an issue, have them find a deceased kobold adventurer with some wands of knock and find traps that they can loot.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, just drop them some items that make their job easier. Plenty of rogues with +skill items will have met their end in the Dungeon...

[Baroknik]

Also, as to dealing with B, I hate to give boring advice, but have you tried sitting down and having an adult out-of-game conversation with him about his behaviour? Because ultimately meta-game behaviour like that is an out-of-game problem, he isn't respecting the system or the group by doing that. Talking to people about this type of behaviour in a calm, level-headed manner often is the best way to resolve the issue.

Definitely do NOT punish him in-game for it as that won't help the situation and just make you possibly look like the bad guy. Behaviour issues are best dealt with out of game, and cheating is a behaviour issue.

[Segev]

One thing from the first post to which I wanted to reply: there is no check for somebody who has the spell on a class list to use a wand; you're probably thinking of scrolls, which do have a CL check if you aren't high enough level to cast the spell. But a 1st level Paladin can use a wand of literally any Paladin spell without difficulty.


I'll second the comment about enforcing the chips, too. Don't let him "forget." Remind him every time.

And yeah, either let him retrain skills, or help him out by getting him masterwork tools and/or +skill items.

[ComaVision]

Cloistered Cleric with the Kobold domain (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a). Leave the sneaking and such to the ninja, Cleric can do the traps.

[Kesnit]

Tell B that if he doesn't pay his chip, his stuff doesn't work. Stick to that, and make sure it applies to everyone, not just B.

The others are pretty good at remembering, so that shouldn't be an issue.


And you damned well can just play with S and P, should it come to that.

Technically, I can. However, P has enough problems keeping track of 1 PC; I know she'd struggle with 2. (She played a Bard in a previous campaign. The only song she used was Inspire Courage - which, granted, is good - and only cast spells when it was pointed out to her that she had the perfect spell on her list.) Also, I live with S and P*, which would cause a weird dynamic.

*As I said above, S is my wife. P is her mother.


I hate to suggest something petty, but one of these days it might be nice if you were to put B in a one-on-one encounter with some minor monster - catch him at some point when he gets separated from the party. Then start to 'forget' to mark off hit points from the monster when he damages it. At some point he will start to ask 'how is this thing not dead yet?' and you just go 'Oh, did I forget to deduct hit points when you hit it? Well, that's okay since you do the same sort of thing to me all the time.' :P

*chuckle* I'd love to do that, if the opportunity arose.


Sorry if I'm stating the obvious, but isn't the simple solution here just to rez your wife's character and let B retrain skill points? And if it's really an issue, have them find a deceased kobold adventurer with some wands of knock and find traps that they can loot.

B won't retrain his skill points. I have a standing rule that characters can be rebuilt at any time, so long as I'm told beforehand that the rebuild is happening. (That includes changing everything, including race and class.) It's been pointed out (many times) to B that he needs more skill points in OL and DD, but he won't change them.


Also, as to dealing with B, I hate to give boring advice, but have you tried sitting down and having an adult out-of-game conversation with him about his behaviour? Because ultimately meta-game behaviour like that is an out-of-game problem, he isn't respecting the system or the group by doing that. Talking to people about this type of behaviour in a calm, level-headed manner often is the best way to resolve the issue.

Yes, I did. B denies that he was cheating, and the only proof I had at the time was that he used his boots more than S's Ice Slicks lasted. I hadn't actually been counting his rounds (I do now), and he only stopped using the boots when someone (not me) asked him how many times/day he could use them. (He said he had one more round, then tried to use them twice more. I called him on it, saying "I thought you only had 1 round left?")


One thing from the first post to which I wanted to reply: there is no check for somebody who has the spell on a class list to use a wand; you're probably thinking of scrolls, which do have a CL check if you aren't high enough level to cast the spell. But a 1st level Paladin can use a wand of literally any Paladin spell without difficulty.

That is what I was thinking of. Thanks. :smallsmile:


And yeah, either let him retrain skills, or help him out by getting him masterwork tools and/or +skill items.

He has masterwork tools, I think. I know he has tools. +Skill items aren't a bad idea. I've been working to reduce the wealth glut for the party anyway, so replacing some things with those items would work.


Cloistered Cleric with the Kobold domain (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a). Leave the sneaking and such to the ninja, Cleric can do the traps.

She has Protection and Renewal. Forgot to mention that she is the spontaneous variant.

[Cyber Gir]

I would like to join :D just pm if you want me :) I am down with playing anything you need.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Also, as to dealing with B, I hate to give boring advice, but have you tried sitting down and having an adult out-of-game conversation with him about his behaviour? Because ultimately meta-game behaviour like that is an out-of-game problem, he isn't respecting the system or the group by doing that. Talking to people about this type of behaviour in a calm, level-headed manner often is the best way to resolve the issue.

Definitely do NOT punish him in-game for it as that won't help the situation and just make you possibly look like the bad guy. Behaviour issues are best dealt with out of game, and cheating is a behaviour issue.

This is, in my opinion, the best advice. Whenever I have issues with someone I talk to either them or the DM. This has given me the best results. I have never seen anyone get kicked out of a game or be forced to leave because of this.

[jiriku]

I like your idea of using chips to track things. That helps everyone at the table.

When I'm running a spellcaster, my DM never hesitates to ask me for details. I'd encourage you to do the same. Just quickly asking "what level spell is that?" or "What book is that spell in?" can help you monitor what's going on.