Casting awaken on someone affected by baleful polymorph

[Crake]

What would happen?! There's two circumstances to take into account, based on whether or not the victim failed their will save to keep their mind from the baleful polymorph. One side of the argument is that if they had lost their mind, awaken would restore it, though I have a more sinister interpretation to the combo. The awaken spell would instead replace the polymorphed creature's personality and consciousness with that of an awakened creature.

If this is done on a victim who's lost their mind to baleful polymorph, then dispelling the polymorph would revert the effect of the awaken, since BP says that the creature regains it's mind if the effect is later dispelled or removed, however... if the creature retains it's mind, that clause no longer applies, so a baleful polymorph victim who passes their will save and is then affected by awaken will have their mind be forever changed into that of an awakened animal, even if they revert to their normal form.

Druidic brainwashing at it's best.

Edit: Yes, baleful polymorph does change the victim's type to animal, please stop posting that it doesnt. Don't believe me, then look it up. "The subject takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the new form in place of its own except as follows:" with none of the exceptions mentioning retaining any type or subtype except Shapechanger. Ergo, victim gains the animal type.

[awa]

sorry does not work in my opinion
awaken only works on animals baleful polymorph does not in my opinion make you an "animal" and here's why you keep your alignment even if you stay stuck as an animal, animals always have a true neutral alignment so you cant have the animal type. It says you lose your memories but it never says your personality changes So your alignment stays the same thus no animal type thus no awaken.

also the whole polymorph line is a complex chain filled with errata but i don't believe the polymporph line changes your type.

[Crake]

sorry does not work in my opinion
awaken only works on animals baleful polymorph does not in my opinion make you an "animal" and here's why you keep your alignment even if you stay stuck as an animal, animals always have a true neutral alignment so you cant have the animal type. It says you lose your memories but it never says your personality changes So your alignment stays the same thus no animal type thus no awaken.

also the whole polymorph line is a complex chain filled with errata but i don't believe the polymporph line changes your type.

Actually, the polymorph spells very much DO change your type. Regular polymorph says so specifically, since its an exclusive list of things that it changes, on the other hand, baleful polymorph gives you all the statistics of the animal (which includes type), with the listed exceptions. Keeping your type is not among those listed exceptions (though you do keep the shapechanger subtype if you have it), so it follows that your type would change to animal.

[Flickerdart]

...a baleful polymorph victim who passes their will save and is then affected by awaken will have their mind be forever changed into that of an awakened animal, even if they revert to their normal form.
Where in Awaken does it say that it changes the target's mind in any way except making it sentient and friendly?

[Aetol]

The most sensible ruling would be that you can't awaken something that's already sentient, from BP or even a prior Awaken. The possibility is just never brought up in RAW.

[Windrammer]

sorry does not work in my opinion
awaken only works on animals baleful polymorph does not in my opinion make you an "animal" and here's why you keep your alignment even if you stay stuck as an animal, animals always have a true neutral alignment so you cant have the animal type. It says you lose your memories but it never says your personality changes So your alignment stays the same thus no animal type thus no awaken.

also the whole polymorph line is a complex chain filled with errata but i don't believe the polymporph line changes your type.


sorry does not work in my opinion
awaken only works on animals baleful polymorph does not in my opinion make you an "animal" and here's why you keep your alignment even if you stay stuck as an animal, animals always have a true neutral alignment so you cant have the animal type. It says you lose your memories but it never says your personality changes So your alignment stays the same thus no animal type thus no awaken.

also the whole polymorph line is a complex chain filled with errata but i don't believe the polymporph line changes your type.

Your argument is that the result of baleful polymorph is not an animal because it's not true neutral? A polymorphed person just ends up being an unusual animal, the alignment doesn't bear much relevance to the issue. What matters is they have the mental scores of animal. Nothing in the description of the spell awaken says anything that would prohibit it's use on someone who has been baleful polymorphed. It only needs to be an animal. Granted, the spell is a lot more vague than it should be, but whether or not it's applicable to a polymorphed subject is the DM's call, as WotC clearly didn't account for the scenario. I would rule that the polymorphed animal should receive it's old mental scores from Awaken.

[Crake]

Where in Awaken does it say that it changes the target's mind in any way except making it sentient and friendly?

It is a bit of an extension of the rules, making assumptions about the meaning behind different things. Like for example the fact that it replaces your intelligence with a new one, the fact that the awakened creature is automatically friendly toward you (even though you're doing this to him) and the fact that it's languages are replaced by the new set of languages.

I feel like, those things combined seem to hint toward a replace of consciousness, as opposed to a heightening of one for the victim.

[Flickerdart]

It is a bit of an extension of the rules, making assumptions about the meaning behind different things. Like for example the fact that it replaces your intelligence with a new one, the fact that the awakened creature is automatically friendly toward you (even though you're doing this to him) and the fact that it's languages are replaced by the new set of languages.

I feel like, those things combined seem to hint toward a replace of consciousness, as opposed to a heightening of one for the victim.
But it doesn't have to be, which solves the problem.

[Crake]

But it doesn't have to be, which solves the problem.

This is more from a DM's perspective, I'm wondering about the legitimacy of using something like this as a story device. Sure it doesn't have to be, but it could be, right?

[Lord Vukodlak]

Awaken only works on creatures of the animal type. Baleful Polymorph does NOT actually change you're type. So by RAW it does not work because the target is not valid. One could reason that because every other statistic changes to the base animal so would type. However keeping the type unchanged can give a clue that the squirrel is not a squirrel.

Personally I would say Awaken would UNDO the failed will save

[Jack_Simth]

This is more from a DM's perspective, I'm wondering about the legitimacy of using something like this as a story device. Sure it doesn't have to be, but it could be, right?
As a DM? If you want it to work that way, then it works that way (at your table). Just be consistent about it, remember that the point is for all to have a good time, and you'll do fine.

[Nifft]

If the NPC had a notable personality before the Baleful Polymorph, and it would be more amusing for Awaken to bring that personality back, then that's exactly what happens.

[Crake]

Awaken only works on creatures of the animal type. Baleful Polymorph does NOT actually change you're type. So by RAW it does not work because the target is not valid. One could reason that because every other statistic changes to the base animal so would type. However keeping the type unchanged can give a clue that the squirrel is not a squirrel.

Personally I would say Awaken would UNDO the failed will save

Can you tell me which part of baleful polymorph says they keep their original type? They assume all the statistics of the animal they transform into (which includes type) with the listed exceptions, which make no mention of keeping any type or subtype except the shapechanger subtype. You may be thinking of pathfinder, but I'm talking 3.5


As a DM? If you want it to work that way, then it works that way (at your table). Just be consistent about it, remember that the point is for all to have a good time, and you'll do fine.

I'm thinking that one of the player's mentors, who has turned out to be an evil druid used this technique on the player in the past whenever they strayed too far from the teachings she wanted to impress upon her. After many failed attempts to "properly" train her, the druid sent the player to their death, but they were instead captured, and has been trying to make their way home since. Upon arriving back home, the evil druid will try to restart the process on the player by attempting to capture them and then re-awaken them, giving the others 24 hours to find and interrupt the casting of awaken on the player. The evil druid also leads a small tribe of faeries, which she would use this process on any that begin to question her.


If the NPC had a notable personality before the Baleful Polymorph, and it would be more amusing for Awaken to bring that personality back, then that's exactly what happens.

I don't limit my table to whatever will produce the most keks at any given moment, if the players at my table wanted amusing, they'd just play some board games and talk smack.

[Nifft]

I don't limit my table to whatever will produce the most keks at any given moment, if the players at my table wanted amusing, they'd just play some board games and talk smack.
Indeed, short-term local-maxima like you referenced would be a terrible idea.

Luckily, "more amusing" and "most keks at any given moment" are not at all the same thing.

But you knew, that, right?

You were just having a giggle by using a misleading phrase?

[Crake]

Indeed, short-term local-maxima like you referenced would be a terrible idea.

Luckily, "more amusing" and "most keks at any given moment" are not at all the same thing.

But you knew, that, right?

You were just having a giggle by using a misleading phrase?

did you perhaps mean "more entertaining"? because that would make more sense given the context. Considering that amusing things are meant to incite laughter and entertainment, the more amusing option would infact be the thing that gives the most keks (laughter) at that given moment, however the more entertaining option does not necessarily mean so.

[TheifofZ]

I don't see in BP where it says "changes type".
I do see that if the target fails the attached will save, they lose extraordinary, supernatural and SL abilities and spellcasting abilities. Their Int, Cha, and Wis all change to that of the animal, and they retain class levels, as well as bonuses derived from them. (BAB, Saves, and HD). They also retain class abilities that are not extraordinary, supernatural, Spell-like, or spellcasting.

Also the spell Awaken specifies that when Awakening an animal, they gain 3d6 Int, 1d3 Cha, +2 HD, and the Magical Beast type.
I would think that gaining a very different level of sentience would mean a drastically different mind would be piloting it, -if- it worked on targets who were Baleful Polymorphed.

[Aetol]

I don't see in BP where it says "changes type".
I do see that if the target fails the attached will save, they lose extraordinary, supernatural and SL abilities and spellcasting abilities. Their Int, Cha, and Wis all change to that of the animal, and they retain class levels, as well as bonuses derived from them. (BAB, Saves, and HD). They also retain class abilities that are not extraordinary, supernatural, Spell-like, or spellcasting.

The spell says it changes everything, and then goes on to list exceptions. One of these exceptions is the shapechanger subtype (if you have it) : that implies other types and subtypes are changed.

[Crake]

I think the confusion is maybe arising due to the fact that baleful polymorph was overhauled during the big polymorph errata, so if people are looking at the pre-errataed version in their PHBs, that might be saying otherwise.

Edit: Nope, the pre-errata version says "as polymorph" which changes type.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm thinking that one of the player's mentors, who has turned out to be an evil druid used this technique on the player in the past whenever they strayed too far from the teachings she wanted to impress upon her. After many failed attempts to "properly" train her, the druid sent the player to their death, but they were instead captured, and has been trying to make their way home since. Upon arriving back home, the evil druid will try to restart the process on the player by attempting to capture them and then re-awaken them, giving the others 24 hours to find and interrupt the casting of awaken on the player. The evil druid also leads a small tribe of faeries, which she would use this process on any that begin to question her.OK, this is where you're potentially getting into dangerous territory... but it's not because of rules stuff.

You've got a potential verisimilitude problem here: Fairy questions, gets BP'd, Awakened, restored, and put back into the fold... and you've got a recognized fairy that has completely lost all memory of being a fairy, surrounded by the fairies that knew it before. And somehow nobody notices. That doesn't sit right. The Druid's going to be one or more of: almost never using this technique (so that loss of memory is relatively easily explained), openly ruling through fear ("You don't want to end up like Tarrasa, do you?"), or missing a fey contingent in short order.

You've also got a potential player agency problem: You're taking a backstory element from a player, subverting it, then taking deliberate steps to capture the player and take them out of the game for a day. Depending on the player, subverting their backstory like that (turning a nice guy into a bad one) is either going to be considered a very bad faux pas for messing with their character, or very cool for integrating their backstory. Know your players. The other half, however: What's the player going to do when the character is captured for a meaningful chunk of a gaming session or three? "Don't split up the party" is common table wisdom for multiple reasons. Some of it's resource concentration for fighting baddies, some of it is also spotlight time. The guy who's away from the rest of the party can't interact with the world while you're working with the rest of the party, and vice-versa. No matter who you're working with, someone's sitting around your table mostly bored waiting for their time to come up. This is not generally considered fun.

[Crake]

OK, this is where you're potentially getting into dangerous territory... but it's not because of rules stuff.

You've got a potential verisimilitude problem here: Fairy questions, gets BP'd, Awakened, restored, and put back into the fold... and you've got a recognized fairy that has completely lost all memory of being a fairy, surrounded by the fairies that knew it before. And somehow nobody notices. That doesn't sit right. The Druid's going to be one or more of: almost never using this technique (so that loss of memory is relatively easily explained), openly ruling through fear ("You don't want to end up like Tarrasa, do you?"), or missing a fey contingent in short order.

You've also got a potential player agency problem: You're taking a backstory element from a player, subverting it, then taking deliberate steps to capture the player and take them out of the game for a day. Depending on the player, subverting their backstory like that (turning a nice guy into a bad one) is either going to be considered a very bad faux pas for messing with their character, or very cool for integrating their backstory. Know your players. The other half, however: What's the player going to do when the character is captured for a meaningful chunk of a gaming session or three? "Don't split up the party" is common table wisdom for multiple reasons. Some of it's resource concentration for fighting baddies, some of it is also spotlight time. The guy who's away from the rest of the party can't interact with the world while you're working with the rest of the party, and vice-versa. No matter who you're working with, someone's sitting around your table mostly bored waiting for their time to come up. This is not generally considered fun.

The fairies in question are pretty absent minded for the most part, with the exception of the player, being content to live a happy fun life. The evil druid also has also show capabilities of altering people's memories en-masse (the player brought a human into the faerie village, she turned him into a tree and then made all the other faeries think she sprouted the tree from nothing, done with a modify memory chain SLA, little bit of homebrewing, in terms of the chain SLA feat), but yeah, the faeries are essentially eternally innocent young children, they're faeries, not all kinds of fey, just faeries, so every single one is essentially a winged child, stuck forever in the mindset of a child. As such, they're, for the most part, very ditzy and easily manipulated. It's a bit hard to explain in so few words, but sufficed to say, none of them would really notice anything, and those that do are typically the ones that are scheduled for reprogramming anyway.

Note that this isn't normal, it's a culture the evil druid has built up for generations upon generations, initially using subversion and manipulation, breeding a culture of ignorance and inattentiveness, until the faeries don't even notice if one goes missing, and then a new one returns to take it's place. As for what the player is going to be doing in the meantime, probably roleplaying talking with the druid (she has an always on speak with animals), and asking why she's doing what she's doing. That is of course assuming that the druid DOES manage to capture the player. It's not a guarenteed thing after all, and the players may just drive her away to hide, or perhaps even capture her instead. As for splitting up the party, my players tend to be pretty happy to allow sequential RP for split up parties, as they do it quite often around the place.

Finally, on the topic of messing with backstories, my players know very well I mess around with their backstories often, and it's not a sudden thing, it's been a theme of the entire game so far, with little details and things hinting that the player's mentor wasn't all they seemed to be. Pretty much the entire story of this game has been the player trying to find their way home and confront their mentor regarding the inconsistencies they've been noticing.

[Nifft]

did you perhaps mean "more entertaining"? because that would make more sense given the context. Considering that amusing things are meant to incite laughter and entertainment, the more amusing option would infact be the thing that gives the most keks (laughter) at that given moment, however the more entertaining option does not necessarily mean so. Not sure what you're trying to accomplish by nit-picking the word "amusing".

"Entertaining" and "amusing" are literally synonyms which share a lot of semantic coverage, and "more entertaining" would be exactly as correct as "more amusing" already is.

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[Windrammer]

OK, this is where you're potentially getting into dangerous territory... but it's not because of rules stuff.

You've got a potential verisimilitude problem here: Fairy questions, gets BP'd, Awakened, restored, and put back into the fold... and you've got a recognized fairy that has completely lost all memory of being a fairy,
Why must it lost all memory? I don't think it would.

[Crake]

Not sure what you're trying to accomplish by nit-picking the word "amusing".

"Entertaining" and "amusing" are literally synonyms which share a lot of semantic coverage, and "more entertaining" would be exactly as correct as "more amusing" already is.

{scrubbed}

semantics and grammar are actually quite different, and while entertaining and amusing may be similar, they are not synonomous, and make quite a difference in the context. Also, can you please stop flaming the thread, thanks.


Why must it lost all memory? I don't think it would.

The idea would be that the faeries would think that a new faerie has been born (since in my game, fey are born from nature, literally being sprouted from plants), and the newborn faerie would have the basic awareness that all faeries have upon waking up in the world, but nothing more. It's a little more complicated than that, normally faeries have memories of the dream before being born, but these fey are cut off from nature by the evil druid for reasons.

To put it succinctly, the evil druid is actually a former archdruid who has been possessed by a demon that she trapped in a tree. Since it can't break it's body from the prison, it instead twisted and manipulated the fey tribe that the archdruid was a member of, slowly breeding a culture of ignorant bliss, while using illusions to have the faeries actually do terrible things to the surrounding nature in a sick and twisted form of revenge. This is an idea i've been playing around with recently, as the players are approaching the tribe after many months of traveling and gathering information, and I wanted the demon to do something a bit more interesting than just try to out murder them.

[Nifft]

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