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tiltedwindmill
2015-09-22, 02:36 AM
Hi folks,
I am a dm, and I want my players to be able to craft traps. Unfortunately, the craft skill is nonsensical. I have made a quick alternative system. Can the board at large help me figure out...

1) Is this feasible/reasonable?
2) Is this broken/balanced? (i typically work in the 5-12 level bracket)
3) Is this too simple/complex?
4) Any improvements?

Thanks!

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The Main Idea

A trap takes up one 5' by 5' square. (maximum 1 trap per square)
Making a Craft:Trapmaking check requires 1 minute.
Individuals unaware of the trap are allowed a spot check of <X> to notice the trap.
Individuals who enter the square of the trap are allowed a reflex save of <Y> to avoid triggering it.
<x> and <Y> are chosen by the trapmaker.
The DC of the Craft:Trapmaking check is X+Y+abs(X-Y)/2

The trap triggers an item which the trapmaker supplies.
If an attack roll is involved, it is made with a modifier of the trapmaker's BAB + int bonus.
Disable device DC = X.

My intention is for this to be used with alchemical items, smokesticks, acid flasks, etc. Or maybe a poisoned crossbow.
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Optional Extras

-Synergy +2 with Knowledge:Architecture & Engineering
-Requires trapmaking kit/masterwork (+2) trapmaking kit. Costs 30gp/100gp. 10 charges, weighs 1lb/charge.
-Every hour, for each active trap roll 1d100.
On 1-20, failure: trap goes off (even), or becomes useless (odd).
Increase trapmaking DC by 1, lower odds of failure by 2%, to a minimum of 1%.

AtlasSniperman
2015-09-22, 03:23 AM
Look up the Trapsmith prestige class in Dungeonscape. It has a sidebar about Booby traps that is actually really fun for PC's with high ranks in Craft(Trapmaking)(as I've played).

In addition, I think the Craft skill works fine for traps as is, though you may consider allowing clever players to make reusable traps. Such as a turret that takes a full round action to set up, but requires several days to make. Or SpearTraps that can be attached to the wall a door runs through.

Actually the Spear trap is one I loved using as a PC. It's a tube with a spring inside. The tube can be affixed to the wall and a tripwire run at the bottom of the door. The wire get's tripped, the trap triggers and does a normal single spear attack against the target(with an attack bonus based off the Craft(Trapmaking) check to put it there). A bunch of these can be attached to the one door, and can be installed or removed in a manner of minutes.


Basically, try checking out the Booby Traps sidebar in Dungeonscape, and consider allowing Trapmaking PC's to make reusable traps that can be installed in various areas.

nonsi
2015-09-22, 07:51 AM
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You have a solid set of rules here, but I have a few comments:


If
1. X = Spot Check
2. Y = Ref to avoid
Then a 1st level trapsmith would find it extremely difficult to make a typical trap (X:15 , Y:12).
Consider making it: Min(X,Y) + Min(X,Y)/2
This would make my example end up DC 21, which given [time + money + chances to be tested] seems reasonable to me.


I'm having a problem with every trap going off or becoming useless. Some traps can linger for years. It's also quite tedious to track such thing repeatedly.
At the very least, rule out that #N consecutive checks where a trap doesn't go off/ruined render the trap stable.


I don't see anything here that addresses trapdoors, pit traps, revolving walls, sliding staircases, shifting rooms etc. Those can definitely not be constructed in 1 minute.
This might be a skill trick that requires quite a few ranks in Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering), and of course requires longer periods to craft.

tiltedwindmill
2015-09-22, 01:08 PM
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If
1. X = Spot Check
2. Y = Ref to avoid
Then a 1st level trapsmith would find it extremely difficult to make a typical trap (X:15 , Y:12).
Consider making it: Min(X,Y) + Min(X,Y)/2
This would make my example end up DC 21, which given [time + money + chances to be tested] seems reasonable to me.


I agree that the numbers are fairly impossible for a level 1 character. My goal was to make it very simple to calculate on the fly, and sacrifice any weirdness in the level 1-4 or the level 13-20 brackets since they won't matter to me anyway.

Also, I don't want to make the skill so effective that every player will want it (all classes have access to craft). I think it should be something like disable device, where it is cool and situationally powerful... but if you don't really pile on the modifiers, you're likely to get yourself killed.

At level 6, max ranks, masterwork, synergy, and int 14 gives you a +15 modifier. Which gives you a 50/50 of setting up a X=Y=13 trap... which is pretty small. Maybe you're right.


.
I don't see anything here that addresses trapdoors, pit traps, revolving walls, sliding staircases, shifting rooms etc.


This is not meant to apply to architectural traps. I have yet to create an adventure where the PC's are actually constructing their own dungeon or stronghold, but I have had many where the PC's have noticed a monster before it noticed them, and wanted more of a reward for that than simply a surprise round. Building a trap then luring it out would make sense to me, were I in a dungeon, but the rules seem not to cover that.

nonsi
2015-09-22, 01:30 PM
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Notice I had a typo in the suggested formula.
Should be: Max(X,Y) + Min(X,Y)/2 .............. Max + Min/2.


Also, you didn't state your thoughts regarding the option of traps that turn out to be reliable and don't go off/become useless.


And I totally get your angle on architectural traps, but when writing a set of rules, it's always a good idea to paint a complete picture, even if you're not immediately concerned about certain aspects - those may show up later on (e.g. the character, for whatever reasons, wishes to design and build a castle/mansion w/ architecture that traps intruders etc.).

tiltedwindmill
2015-09-23, 01:35 AM
ah, that new formula makes more sense, but im still back to the drawing board formula-wise, i have a better idea of what i want to do (greater-than-linear power increase per skill point), and now just have to figure out how to do it elegantly.

regarding optionals, these are things that i intend to introduce to my players, but aren't important to the idea of the rules. i dont know if having traps that will last forever is somehow breakable, but i do know that it strains my belief... its like leaving a crossbow loaded and running an obstacle course with it. there aren't actually any rules against it. the dm is supposed to say when something either doesn't matter or is nonsense and shouldn't be the case. i hate being arbitrary though, so i make rules about it. im only half-recommending them, but i still welcome ideas on how to break them (which is why i included them in the posting)

the reason that trap tracking setup works for me is, i know how long players will be in a certain area... and i just make all the checks up front to see if the trap is still active or not. also, making something not work 100% is a great way of discouraging my risk averse players from relying on it, or building overly complex plans using them.

nonsi
2015-09-23, 03:18 AM
ah, that new formula makes more sense, but im still back to the drawing board formula-wise, i have a better idea of what i want to do (greater-than-linear power increase per skill point), and now just have to figure out how to do it elegantly.


Ok, I'm waiting to see what you come up with.





regarding optionals, these are things that i intend to introduce to my players, but aren't important to the idea of the rules. i dont know if having traps that will last forever is somehow breakable, but i do know that it strains my belief... its like leaving a crossbow loaded and running an obstacle course with it. there aren't actually any rules against it. the dm is supposed to say when something either doesn't matter or is nonsense and shouldn't be the case. i hate being arbitrary though, so i make rules about it. im only half-recommending them, but i still welcome ideas on how to break them (which is why i included them in the posting)


In my experience, if you can make things simple and intuitive via the rules, it's better than burdening the DM with judgement calls.





the reason that trap tracking setup works for me is, i know how long players will be in a certain area... and i just make all the checks up front to see if the trap is still active or not. also, making something not work 100% is a great way of discouraging my risk averse players from relying on it, or building overly complex plans using them.


I didn't say you should nix trap tracking, just that you don't need to track them indefinitely.
IRL, spring-locks work properly all the time, as long as you don't open and close them too often in a highly humid environment. Now, given we're talking about hand made crafting and not a production line, the thought about 100% reliability never occurred to me. The players should be aware that they'll not know (probably ever) that a trap is 100% reliable, so counting on overly complex plans is something they'll do at their own risk. But if you set a trap and come to check it out a month later and find out that it's functional, then you can assume with a high level of confidence that it's reliable. If the situation permits you this mileage of long-term planning, then there's no reason why you wouldn't be able to apply a reasonable reliable long-term strategy.