How powerful should 20th level features be?

[McNinja]

I'm attempting to homebrew a new class, and I'm trying to guage just how powerful the class (or subclass) level 20 features should be. The Paladin Oath of Ancients and Fighter Extra Attack 20th level features are generally considered "pretty good," but I'm wondering what the upper limit is. Is it "True Polymorph into a Solar for 1 minute" powerful or "use Disintegrate as a touch attack 1/long rest powerful?"

I'm also comparing it to 20th level wizards with the meteor Swarm spell. It's the highest damaging spell in the game, so I'm trying to have the 20th level features do about as much damage over 1 minute per long rest. I can post what I have if you wish.

[Ketiara]

I'm attempting to homebrew a new class, and I'm trying to guage just how powerful the class (or subclass) level 20 features should be. The Paladin Oath of Ancients and Fighter Extra Attack 20th level features are generally considered "pretty good," but I'm wondering what the upper limit is. Is it "True Polymorph into a Solar for 1 minute" powerful or "use Disintegrate as a touch attack 1/long rest powerful?"

I'm also comparing it to 20th level wizards with the meteor Swarm spell. It's the highest damaging spell in the game, so I'm trying to have the 20th level features do about as much damage over 1 minute per long rest. I can post what I have if you wish.

yea I think its easier to judge if you post your ideas.

[TopCheese]

Onion Druid, Endless Frenzy (immune to exhaustion)4, Deity Summoning (Wo)man, Creating a Matrix via illusion, Permanent Angle transforsgnjmation (at-will turn back and forth).

Level 20 party shouldn't be curved stomped by a gods avatar or demon princes. They should be a threat, but in about the same page

[Citan]

I'm attempting to homebrew a new class, and I'm trying to guage just how powerful the class (or subclass) level 20 features should be. The Paladin Oath of Ancients and Fighter Extra Attack 20th level features are generally considered "pretty good," but I'm wondering what the upper limit is. Is it "True Polymorph into a Solar for 1 minute" powerful or "use Disintegrate as a touch attack 1/long rest powerful?"

I'm also comparing it to 20th level wizards with the meteor Swarm spell. It's the highest damaging spell in the game, so I'm trying to have the 20th level features do about as much damage over 1 minute per long rest. I can post what I have if you wish.
Hi! :)

I've been a been in the same questioning as you since I'm also in the process of creating a homebrew class.

There is no easy way to answer to question, because it really depends on the global abilities of the class and general balance.
Check the Paladin: its capstone is linked to the archetype, as a "cherry on cake" topping, providing either very powerful but time-limited abilities (Ancients) or more flavorfoul but less impressive ones (Devotion).
Check the Bard: its capstone is class-related, obviously lacklusting compared to others: but the class itself is packed with useful, versatile abilities, and its main role is not to deal damage but to be party-face / fate changer anyways (although this capstone in particular feels very DM-dependent to prove useful).
Check the Barbarian: one-line capstone, significant raw increase in power for a tank+damage dealer role.
Same with Fighter which is primarily damage dealer.

To give you a more definitive opinion we'd need your whole class. What I could suggest you already (which maybe you do already) is follow these steps:
- What is the primary role(s) I want this class to fill?
- Does the class provide sufficiently abilities for a character 20 to do the job efficiently as is?
- If not, what capstone would I give it as the way to represent the core of the class?
- If yes, what ability could I give it to enhance a secondary role?

(Facing the same problem as you, I chose to make the capstone archetype-related, for some archetypes it's basically a more powerful version of a low-level ability, for others it's a "flat benefit", for others a unique ability that is directly inspired by the archetype fluff. Hope that bit helps you).

Good luck in working on your homebrew. :)

[McNinja]

Thank you!

This is the first subclass I thought up; the class uses ki points and has 12 ki points by 20th level. Master Eldritch Strike is 1/long rest and costs 5 ki to cast Banishing Smite.

Hexblade Spell list
At 3rd level when you choose this path, you gain access to the following spells as well as the Fire Bolt cantrip. You gain access to more spells as you gain levels. Some of the spells you gain access to are cast at a spell level higher than their base level. If this is the case, the spell will denote the level it is cast at in parenthesis next to the spell name and you cannot lower the spell level.
Some spells allow you to choose the type of spell damage; if you are able to do so you must always choose necrotic or fire damage wherever possible. If you have a choice between necrotic and fire damage, you may choose either one.

Hexblade
Level Ki Points Spells
3rd 1 Hex, Blindness/Deafness, Darkness
5th 2 Burning Hands (3rd), Death Ward, Misty Step
7th 2 Armor of Agathys (3rd), Arms of Hadar (3rd)
9th 3 Hellish Rebuke (4th)
11th 4 Destructive Wave, Hallow, Contagion
13th 5 Vampiric Touch (5th), Harm, Eyebite
15th 7 Elemental Weapon (5th), Dimension Door
17th 8 Finger of Death, Circle of Death (7th)
20th 10 Disintegrate (9th), Imprisonment

Ki Features
Hexblade’s Curse
Starting at 3rd level, when you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can spend your ki to curse your enemy, draining their strength. The creature must make a Charisma saving throw. If your target fails their saving throw, they must roll a d4 before their next attack and reduce their attack and damage rolls by that much for the next minute.

Aura of Entropy
You emit an aura of life-sapping energy that also protects you. While you are conscious, you gain resistance to necrotic damage, and all enemy creatures within 10ft of you take 2 necrotic damage at the start of their turn. Once you reach 17th level, this aura increases range to 30 ft.

Entropic Strike
At 7th level, you can spend 1 ki point to infuse your dark powers into your weapon strikes. For 1 minute, all of your weapon attacks deal additional damage equal to your Intelligence modifier. This additional damage can be either necrotic or fire damage. At 14th level, the d4 in your Hexblade’s Curse feature becomes a d6.

Power from Blood
At 14th level, you can spend Hit Die to fuel your abilities. Each Hit Die you spend also causes you to lose 5 HP. For each Hit Die you spend, you regain 1 ki point.

Scion of Death
At 20th level you can assume the form of an Avatar of Death. Using your action, you can undergo a transformation; as you summon your dark powers, your body is enveloped in a black mist. Dark tendrils spring forth from your back and move as if they have a mind of their own and a crown of green flame rest above blood red eyes crying bloody tears that carve their way through the darkness that has enveloped your body. For 1 minute, you gain the following benefits:
• Instead of moving, you may cast Dimension Door for 1 ki point.
• Your any creature that enters your aura of entropy must succeed a Wisdom saving throw or become frightened for 1 minute or until it takes damage. Attack rolls against the frightened creature have advantage.
• When you use your Master Eldritch Strike feature, you may cast Disintegrate as a 6th level spell with a range of touch or Vampiric Touch as a 9th level spell instead of Banishing Smite. If you do so you do not add your weapon damage to the attack.
Once you use this feature, you cannot use it again and you do not regain your ki points spent while in this form until you finish a long rest. If you use Hit Die to replace ki while in this form, you also suffer 1 level of exhaustion.

[Citan]

Thank you!

This is the first subclass I thought up; the class uses ki points and has 12 ki points by 20th level. Master Eldritch Strike is 1/long rest and costs 5 ki to cast Banishing Smite.

(scrubbed, full post just above).
Woah. :) Very interesting features, coherent and simple (I should learn from this, I started simple and now am... ahem far stranded into complexity ^^).

A few quick notes if you'll allow...
- I may have missed the information, the Ki points are a short-rest resource right? Because if so I have a slight feeling that ki/spell level balance could use very slight change (although I not sure of myself, waiting other's opinions on this).

- Hexblade's Curse seems a bit powerful to me for a lvl 3 ability, considering the 1mn flat duration. Maybe affect only attack or damage roll, and make an enhancement at higher level? Or give it concentration? Again, it's difficult for me to assess balance in concrete use-cases, so let's wait for people who have hundreds hours of DD5 beyond them.

- Aura of Entropy: feels powerful but acceptable at lvl3, at bit lacking maybe at later levels. I suggest an alternative: gets at lvl 5, damage is equal to proficiency bonus, range starts at 5 feet, then 10, 15 and 20 at levels 9, 13 and 17 respectively.

- Entropic Strike: felt a bit too powerful to me to get potentially +5 damage at lvl 7, especially for only 1ki. With that said the fire/necrotic base makes it useless against a few dozen enemies. So may be good as is (or maybe up the cost to 2 ki).

- Power for Blood: nothing special to say, apart from "very good idea :)". Maybe spending Hit Dice + losing 5 hit points is a bit too much (because it also means less Hit Dice to restore self during short rests)? I myself like it as is though.

- Capstone: very nice fluff. My only true gripe is with Dimension Door. Only 1 Ki? Seems really too powerful to me. Make it at least cost 2, maybe even 3 points. Or if you just wanted teleport, give either free teleport as move up to 60 feet, or teleport with willing creature up to 200 feet for 1 ki.

You didn't describe Master Eldricht Strike, I suppose it's a melee weapon attack with included spell cast?
Feels fine since 1/long rest (I suppose it costs 1 or 2 Ki points)? Disintegrate is a bit powerful compared to others though (10d6 + flat 40 damage of irresistible damage, compared to 9d6 of commonly resisted damage or 5d10+banish), but not shockingly so. I suppose you wanted to balance damage with riders while providing different options for players (control/strike/heal) and it's indeed not easy. :)

In short, my first impression of the class is that it seems globally balanced and coherent (including capstone), apart from a few tweaks. Waiting to see the content of archetypes though. :) I'd be interested in playtesting it when you finish it.

[McNinja]

Master Eldritch Strike simply allows you to cast Banishing smite, it doesn't have to be melee. The Hexblade is actually one of the archetypes, the main class is the Spellsword, and most of the Spellsword abilities use force damage. necrotic and fire damage might be the two most resistances or immunities after poison, so I decided to let each archetype use the force damage of the main abilities if they wished.

[Battlebooze]

Just don't look at the bard's capstone ability, one so sad that taking a single level of any pure caster would probably be better.

[PoeticDwarf]

I'm attempting to homebrew a new class, and I'm trying to guage just how powerful the class (or subclass) level 20 features should be. The Paladin Oath of Ancients and Fighter Extra Attack 20th level features are generally considered "pretty good," but I'm wondering what the upper limit is. Is it "True Polymorph into a Solar for 1 minute" powerful or "use Disintegrate as a touch attack 1/long rest powerful?"

I'm also comparing it to 20th level wizards with the meteor Swarm spell. It's the highest damaging spell in the game, so I'm trying to have the 20th level features do about as much damage over 1 minute per long rest. I can post what I have if you wish.
You have fighter/barbarian/druid and you have rogue/monk/ranger level 20 features. Just look at your class, and see if it needs a little nerf or buff, most adventurers don't reach level 20 anyway.

[McNinja]

Interesting how not many adventurers actually reach 20, because I'm planning on having my players exceed 20th level. After this homebrew class is done I'll be writing up some level 21-30 class features for each class, or maybe creating some sort of prestige classes.

[JNAProductions]

Prestige classes? I made some of those!

Unfortunately they're all five levels each, but there's plenty of examples in the D&D 5E Compendium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?396519-D-amp-D-5e-Homebrew-Compendium).