fixes, variant rules, and action economy

[Waazraath]

I noticed there are some threads on fixes, for stuff like the 'frenzy' ability for the beserker barbarian and two weapon fighting. I was wondering: are those fixes neccesary in the basic game, without variant rules (that is: without feats and multi-classing)?

I mainly look at this from an action economy point of view. All classes and subclasses have their strength and weaknesses; including the ability to have access to have good options for the bonus action and reaction. Some (sub)classes don't have these options. In a game with variant rules, this can be easily fixed, with feats (great weapon fighting, polearm master, etc.) or with multi-classing into a class that does give this type of action (in a useful way).

But without variant rules? Classes that don't have many uses for their bonus action, suddenly may find two weapon fighting useful, as it is now, like a champion fighter. And the beserker barbarian also becomes much stronger, because there's the bonus attack with a great axe (at least 1/day, later at a high cost), and at later levels reaction attacks with the same greataxe. Compared with the totem barbarian, that's quite a massive damage boost (especially with the stronger crits, and the ability to get advantage on attack rolls at will - tough again, at a cost).

[TopCheese]

Necessary? No. But fixing 3e or 4e issues wasn't necessary either.

But if you are having issues these are things that might help.

[Fwiffo86]

I noticed there are some threads on fixes, for stuff like the 'frenzy' ability for the beserker barbarian and two weapon fighting. I was wondering: are those fixes neccesary in the basic game, without variant rules (that is: without feats and multi-classing)?

I mainly look at this from an action economy point of view. All classes and subclasses have their strength and weaknesses; including the ability to have access to have good options for the bonus action and reaction. Some (sub)classes don't have these options. In a game with variant rules, this can be easily fixed, with feats (great weapon fighting, polearm master, etc.) or with multi-classing into a class that does give this type of action (in a useful way).

But without variant rules? Classes that don't have many uses for their bonus action, suddenly may find two weapon fighting useful, as it is now, like a champion fighter. And the beserker barbarian also becomes much stronger, because there's the bonus attack with a great axe (at least 1/day, later at a high cost), and at later levels reaction attacks with the same greataxe. Compared with the totem barbarian, that's quite a massive damage boost (especially with the stronger crits, and the ability to get advantage on attack rolls at will - tough again, at a cost).

We play without feats but with multi-classing at our table. What we have found is that the classes are actually phenomenally balanced against each other when you don't have feats. Where one side falters, another picks up the slack naturally.

My vote is, was, and shall always be - Feats optional, leaning to never use them. But then not everyone likes the game the way I do either. In the case of Multi-classing, you really are trading power in favor of versatility (a notion I completely agree with instead of paying power to accumulate even greater power). So, again, Multi-classing - optional, leaning towards use but in limited scope.

[Kryx]

Without feats a lot of the issues are much less pronounced.
But many things are still issues:

Sorcerer still much weaker than Wizard
Devil's Sight + Darkness
Thief Archetype being mediocre
Monks being slightly underpowered (they should really just get OH + 1 other archetype)
Yo-yoing with 1 hp heals

[Theodoxus]

With stuff like Frenzy, I think it's primarily because it's the only class ability out of 12 classes that has a penalty associated beyond simple uses per day. When you Frenzy, which is just granting a bonus attack (something that, like you said, could be gained with TWF), you're paying a steep price, that exceeds your ability to regenerate it's uses.

When comparable abilities don't have that problem, it quickly pales in comparison. Action Surge should likewise cause Exhaustion, yet if it did, no one would ever use it.

Maybe it's less that the penalty for using an ability is exhaustion, and more that there are very few (and relatively costly) ways to get rid of it.

1 level per long rest? You can go from 200 HP to 1, and get all them back, but 2 levels of exhaustion? Sorry bud, just 1.

There are obvious fixes. Regen a level of exhaustion per short rest. That's my particular favorite. It brings the Berserker back on par with the Fighter - short rests bring something to the table that Barbarians normally get no benefit from (legitimately, Totem could use a short rest to cast a ritual. Berserkers can heal, but otherwise gain nothing.)

With exhaustion cured on a short rather than long rest, it's still tactical to use - you can easily gain more levels than short rests, but it's not as harsh. Another option would be to limit short rest recovery to Con mod - more than likely the same effect, but at least fluffwise it makes sense. It's harder to get completely pooped with a higher Con.


But yes, the game is fairly well balanced when Feats and Multiclassing are not used. Though I think you'll see a larger gulf between mundanes and magic.

[Shaofoo]

Sorcerer still much weaker than Wizard


I still don't believe this, I don't think that the Wizard's larger spell selection invalidates the Sorcerer's unique contributions. Being able to manipulate slots (even at a loss because the point is that you are willing to pay for the flexibility) and power up spells is more than enough to differentiate it from the Wizard.

[TopCheese]

But yes, the game is fairly well balanced when Feats and Multiclassing are not used. Though I think you'll see a larger gulf between mundanes and magic.

Only if your idea of balance is martials *do damage* and casters get tons of options which the game is specifically balanced around... Then yeah "balanced".

Martials get nothing of their own and they stop growing around level 8 or so.

In a feat-less game it is worse since the martials can't pick up GWM or whatever to boost their damage (the one thing they do effectively). Cleric can still Spiritual Weapon + Spirit Guardian + Heavy Armor + Decent w/ weapon damage (2d6+str+divine strike).

The more I look at 5e the more I think that feats should be martial character only. Barbarian, Fighter, and Rogue.

[Heartspan]

Sorcerer still much weaker than Wizard
]
Don't forget too, that Sorcers(at least dragon) get a great base ac, and natural flight along with Twinned Haste

[Kryx]

Please see the sorcerer threads. It has been discussed heavily - sorcerers lose on every category except potentially metamagic vs spell school and even then spell schools can be amazing.

Wizards know 44+ spells (Sorc 15 plus an additional 10 from a set list if you're lucky)
Wizards can prepare 29 spells and all rituals (Sorc gets 25)
Wizards can recover spells (Sorc can too, but sacrifices all MM to do so, while the wizard still has spell schools)
Wizard spell list has about 20% more spells. Some of them are very good.
Many spell school options are great.
MM is pretty good - especially twinned, quickened, and heightened. MM allows for switching between blasting or other roles, but a focused wizard is almost always better.
Bend luck is amazing (comparable to portent for forcing failed saves)
Evocation wizard is a better blaster than Dragon by a fair amount

[Sindeloke]

Hey Kryx, I know you've done the math on this - how does blastlock damage (inherently featless, I think?) compare to featless fighter or barbarian damage?

[Shaofoo]

Please see the sorcerer threads. It has been discussed heavily - sorcerers lose on every category except potentially metamagic vs spell school and even then spell schools can be amazing.

Wizards can prepare 28 slots and all rituals (Sorc gets 25)

Every single caster has the same slots throughout, no one class has more slots than another. Mind showing me the three extra slots? And I don't count the special abilities that lets them cast for free since those are only for specific spells while slots are used for all spells.

And you are wrong, Wizards can prepare Wizard spells as rituals, no ALL rituals. Tomelocks have the honor to say they can prepare ALL spells as rituals.


Wizards can recover spells (Sorc can too, but sacrifices all MM to do so, while the wizard still has spell schools)

I don't get this logic, Wizards can only use his ability to recover spells while Sorcerers can use the ability to recover spells or enpower them. You are saying because they have the extra ability that somehow makes them weaker? Wizards lack that option so I would assume that would make their ability lesser. Also if you recover higher level slots Sorcerers can recover as much as Wizards can and still have left over for other things, including more spell slots (Wizards can recover 2 5th level slots and Sorcerers can do that and have 6 points left over, enough for a 3rd level slot or Metamagic)



Wizard spell list has about 20% more spells. Some of them are very good.

Sorcerers have very good spells as well, heck they can even get Wish so your larger spell list is moot if the Sorcerer could cast any 8th level or lower spell anyway.


Many spell school options are great.

That isn't really a point against the Sorcerer that the Wizard doesn't have bad schools.


MM is pretty good - especially twinned, quickened, and heightened. MM allows for switching between blasting or other roles, but a focused wizard is almost always better.

A Sorcerer can twin buffs while the Wizard can only do one, also the Sorcerer has advantages on Con saves while the Wizard needs to be a 6th level transmutation Wizard or burn a feat to get that. Sorcerers make better buffers than Wizards. Wizards can't do everything a Sorcerer can.


Bend luck is amazing (comparable to portent for forcing failed saves)

You can't choose to force a fail with Portent, you assign a number that Portent gives you. If you rolled high then you won't be forcing fails with Portent until you rest again. If you rolled a 15 and a 18 for your Portent rolls then you aren't going to make anyone fail with those. Bend Luck always can be used to lower or raise rolls so you have that flexibility.


Evocation wizard is a better blaster than Dragon by a fair amount

The fact that Wizards get more variety is true on that front but I hope you aren't also counting Overchanneling Cantrips in your insinuation, wasn't it said that you can't Overchannel Cantrips?

So no, Sorcerers don't lose on every Category, Con saves alone makes them better at keeping Concentration already without investment. But I feel that Sorcerers are bad because they aren't Wizards.

[Waazraath]

Regarding wizards and sorcerers: without using variant rules, it's not possible for the wizard to be proficient in con saves, right? That would be a "+" for the sorcerer.

[Kryx]

Hey Kryx, I know you've done the math on this - how does blastlock damage (inherently featless, I think?) compare to featless fighter or barbarian damage?
I don't have it worked out, but I can calculate it rather quickly. I'll remove feats and lower the point at which ability scores are taken (doing this on the fly)
I don't think the comparison is fair as it makes blastlock look ok in comparison to the melee beasts, so I'll throw in the martial ranged characters as well

Barbarian and Fighter DPR is based on a 25 round day with 2 short rests (So a certain amount of fight is spent raging/action surging and that amount of time increases the total DPR)

At 5:
Barbarian with a Greatsword does 29 DPR
Fighter with a Greatsword does 21 DPR
Blastlock does 15 DPR
Bladelock with a Greatsword does 17 DPR
Ranger with a Longbow does 21 DPR
Fighter with a Longbow does 14 DPR

At 11:
Barbarian with a Greatsword does 37 DPR
Fighter with a Greatsword does 38 DPR
Blastlock does 25 DPR
Bladelock with a Greatsword does 19 DPR
Ranger with a Longbow does 22 DPR
Fighter with a Longbow does 24 DPR

At 17:
Barbarian with a Greatsword does 43 DPR
Fighter with a Greatsword does 44 DPR
Blastlock does 48 DPR
Bladelock with a Greatsword does 35 DPR
Ranger with a Longbow does 31 DPR
Fighter with a Longbow does 26 DPR

At 20:
Barbarian with a Greatsword does 62 DPR
Fighter with a Greatsword does 58 DPR
Blastlock does 48 DPR
Bladelock with a Greatsword does 35 DPR
Ranger with a Longbow does 31 DPR
Fighter with a Longbow does 35 DPR

[Kryx]

Mind showing me the three extra slots? And I don't count the special abilities that lets them cast for free since those are only for specific spells while slots are used for all spells.
I said they can prepare 28, but the number is actually 29:
Spell Mastery (2) + Signature spells (2) is actually 4 extra spells prepared. So 29. Whether you count them or not does not change the situation. By having those 4 chosen spells automatically prepared they can instead prepare other spells with the slots they would've used on these spells (there are some good utility spells).

For extra slots they have arcane recovery.


And you are wrong, Wizards can prepare Wizard spells as rituals, no ALL rituals. Tomelocks have the honor to say they can prepare ALL spells as rituals.
Please see the PHB:

You can cast a wizard spell as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag and you have the spell in your spellbook.
You don't need to have the spell prepared.
They do not need to prepare any ritual spells. So their 29 spells prepared is effectively 29 + all known rituals. While the Sorcerer has 15 + 10 from a set list if they're lucky.



I don't get this logic, Wizards can only use his ability to recover spells while Sorcerers can use the ability to recover spells or enpower them. You are saying because they have the extra ability that somehow makes them weaker? Wizards lack that option so I would assume that would make their ability lesser. Also if you recover higher level slots Sorcerers can recover as much as Wizards can and still have left over for other things, including more spell slots (Wizards can recover 2 5th level slots and Sorcerers can do that and have 6 points left over, enough for a 3rd level slot or Metamagic)
A Wizard gets to recover AND use his school granted abilities.
A Sorcerer gets to recover OR use his meta magic.

I'm saying a Wizard gets to do use both his class feature and recover spells. A Sorcerer must choose. One could argue that MM is better than School bonuses (and it is in some cases, not in others), but that small difference in power between MM and a School bonus doesn't make up for the spells recovered.

At 20 a Wizard can recover 10 spell slots.
At 20 a Sorcerer can recover 10 1st level spells, 6 2nd and 1 1st (effectively 13), 4 3rd level spells (effectively 12), 3 4th and 1 1st (effectively 13), or 2 5th, and 1 4th (effectively 14).

It's only a slight edge for a Sorcerer in recovery terms, but to even match a Wizard's baseline they have to blow all of their metamagic while the Wizard keeps his schools.
Sorcerous Restoration does improve this by allowing 4 points per short rest, but it's small and at 20 so it pretty much doesn't matter for 99.5% of campaigns.





Sorcerers have very good spells as well, heck they can even get Wish so your larger spell list is moot if the Sorcerer could cast any 8th level or lower spell anyway.
A Sorcerer has 160 spells. A Wizard has 253. There is no comparison.
(these numbers might be off slightly, but should be quite close)


A Sorcerer can twin buffs while the Wizard can only do one, also the Sorcerer has advantages on Con saves while the Wizard needs to be a 6th level transmutation Wizard or burn a feat to get that.
Correct, this is the area where Sorcerers shine. It's really good. However Wizards still have spell schools which are about 70-100% as powerful as Metamagic options.



Portent
There are many threads on this. It's amazing. Please read those threads. I agree that bend luck is great and equivalent like I said.


The fact that Wizards get more variety is true on that front but I hope you aren't also counting Overchanneling Cantrips in your insinuation, wasn't it said that you can't Overchannel Cantrips?
Overchannel isn't included, nope.




So no, Sorcerers don't lose on every Category, Con saves alone makes them better at keeping Concentration already without investment. But I feel that Sorcerers are bad because they aren't Wizards.
Yes they do. They are incredibly less versatile in the number of spells prepared, spells known, spell list, spell recovery, lack of rituals, etc. The ONLY things that have going for them are con saves and metamagic which as I said above is on par or slightly better than wizard school options.

I love Sorcerers - they are one of my favorite classes. But they need help (and I've posted some options that do help).

[Shaofoo]

I said they can prepare 28, but the number is actually 29:
Spell Mastery (2) + Signature spells (2) is actually 4 extra spells prepared. So 29. Whether you count them or not does not change the situation. By having those 4 chosen spells automatically prepared they can instead prepare other spells with the slots they would've used on these spells (there are some good utility spells).

For extra slots they have arcane recovery.



I am fully aware that the point of the Wizard is a wider variety of spells, I am not going to pretend to somehow justify the Sorcerer against the Wizard's full strength.

But you did say that Wizards get more slots than Sorcerers. If you meant spells then please fix your mistake.

Also Sorcerers can recover sorcery points on a short rest later as well so they don't lose out fully on having autonomy from the long rest.




Please see the PHB:

They do not need to prepare any ritual spells. So their 29 spells prepared is effectively 29 + all known rituals. While the Sorcerer has 15 + 10 from a set list if they're lucky.


Okay, now tell me where can the Wizard put in Bard, cleric, druid, warlock and sorcerer spells in his spell book. Sure they can have all WIZARD ritual spells on them at any time but only wizard spells, not ALL spells. Tomelocks can prepare ALL ritual spells from ALL classes. Like I said maybe you should better specify.



A Wizard gets to recover AND use his school granted abilities.
A Sorcerer gets to recover OR use his meta magic.

I'm saying a Wizard gets to do use both his class feature and recover spells. A Sorcerer must choose. One could argue that MM is better than School bonuses (and it is in some cases, not in others), but that small difference in power between MM and a School bonus doesn't make up for the spells recovered.

At 20 a Wizard can recover 10 spell slots.
At 20 a Sorcerer can recover 10 1st level spells, 6 2nd and 1 1st (effectively 13), 4 3rd level spells (effectively 12), 3 4th and 1 1st (effectively 13), or 2 5th, and 1 4th (effectively 14).

It's only a slight edge for a Sorcerer in recovery terms, but to even match a Wizard's baseline they have to blow all of their metamagic while the Wizard keeps his schools.
Sorcerous Restoration does improve this by allowing 4 points per short rest, but it's small and at 20 so it pretty much doesn't matter for 99.5% of campaigns.


So should I ask does your PHB lack the Dragon or Wild Sorcerer options, is the sorcerer for you just the spells and meta magic and nothing else? Caused I am looking at them and I can clearly see some abilities that are on always without any need of points, sure Metamagic needs points but the Doragon and Wild Sorcerer offer pointless stuff as well. In a discussion I would appreciate that you do not use hyperbole since it makes it hard to tell if you are joking or not. If you want to say that the abilities aren't good enough is one thing but just saying that all Sorcerers abilities are dependent on points is just patently false.





A Sorcerer has 160 spells. A Wizard has 253. There is no comparison.
(these numbers might be off slightly, but should be quite close)

And the Sorcerer has access to all 8th and lower level spells too as well just like the Wizard with Wish. I though the Sorcerer having less spells is a feature, not a bug. It is a downside but I thought that was intentional. And the point of Wish is that if you truly care about variety then the Sorcerer can access to nearly all spells once.



Correct, this is the area where Sorcerers shine. It's really good. However Wizards still have spell schools which are about 70-100% as powerful as Metamagic options.

So you'd be happy if Wizards have their schools nerfed? I can't see how is the wizard having good things a strike against the Sorcerer, unless there is some secret school where the Wizard can twin or quicken spells. When the Wizard can do everything the Sorcerer can then you can say that the Sorcerer is broken, saying that you believe that schools are as good as metamagic is just an opinion and nothing more.




There are many threads on this. It's amazing. Please read those threads. I agree that bend luck is great and equivalent like I said.

And I already talked about it on said threads. Portent is dependant on your initial rolls. Sure Portent is very rarely useless since you can use those high rolls on attack or skills instead but saying that you can use Portent to your whims always is false. If you roll high you won't be making the creatures fail saving throws unless their modifier is so low anyway.





Yes they do. They are incredibly less versatile in the number of spells prepared, spells known, spell list, spell recovery, lack of rituals, etc. The ONLY things that have going for them are con saves and metamagic which as I said above is on par or slightly better than wizard school options.

Sorry, you even admitted that Sorcerers edge out on Wizards in Spell Recovery, I am not going to count the latter portions because first you said so yourself that it doesn't matter in most campaigns anyway and second because they only apply to specific spells not slots.

And I say that metamagic is better than nearly all school offerings. Your opinion vs my opinion and neither is useful for the actual Sorcery discussion


I love Sorcerers - they are one of my favorite classes. But they need help (and I've posted some options that do help).

Could've fooled me, the way you tried to exaggerate the abilities of the wizard and minimize the Sorcerer's unique abilities. You honestly sounded to me like if you are saying "If you are playing a Sorcerer you are playing it wrong, play a Wizard and stop gimping yourself".

And I will also agree that they need more unique abilities but I feel that we should actually fully appreciate what we have right now and then build on that, not ignore chunks that aren't convenient to us and build from that.

Sorcerers could use more polish I do not deny this but it just feels that we are short changing the Sorcerer.

[Kryx]

But you did say that Wizards get more slots than Sorcerers.
Wizard can prepare 29 spells. You seem to have misunderstood "Wizards can prepare 28 slots". Slots was in reference to the number of spells prepared - not spell slots per day. I will edit that word out, however Wizards have 22 spell slots at 20 so there shouldn't be any confusion either way.


Also Sorcerers can recover sorcery points on a short rest later as well so they don't lose out fully on having autonomy from the long rest.
At 20, as I've said. It doesn't matter for 99.5% of games. This is why I scale it down to much earlier


Okay, now tell me where can the Wizard put in Bard, cleric, druid, warlock and sorcerer spells in his spell book. Sure they can have all WIZARD ritual spells on them at any time but only wizard spells, not ALL spells.
Again, there seems to be a misunderstanding. I was typing on my phone so it wasn't super detailed. I did not intend to communicate that they can take spells for any class - if I had I would've made it a lot more obvious as that is incredibly powerful.
However this doesn't change anything. I'll be explicitly clear here. There are 16 spells that the Wizard doesn't have to prepare in addition to his 29 spells prepared: Alarm, Comprehend Languages, Contact Other Plane, Detect Magic, Drawmij's Instant Summons, Feign Death(who cares), Find Familiar, Gentle Repose, Identify, Illusory Script, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Magic Mouth, Phantom Steed, Rary's Telepathic Bond, Skywrite(who cares), Tenser's Floating Disk, Unseen Servant, Water Breathing. (didn't count skywrite or feign death). There are some really good options in there.



So should I ask does your PHB lack the Dragon or Wild Sorcerer options, is the sorcerer for you just the spells and meta magic and nothing else?
Again, you're being belittling and rude for no reason. You've done this in pretty much every thread about this topic. Please stop.
I haven't pointed out every class feature of the archetype - on either the wizard or the Sorcerer. Mostly those aren't worth discussing in the overall balance of the 2 classes.
As I've pointed out before Dragon Sorc is worse than an Evocation Wizard at blasting. Wild Sorcerer is mostly trash - the only thing of real value is bend luck.



And the Sorcerer has access to all 8th and lower level spells too as well just like the Wizard with Wish. I though the Sorcerer having less spells is a feature, not a bug. It is a downside but I thought that was intentional.
No it doesn't. There are not 93 spells at 9th level to make up the difference. At every level the Sorcerer loses out. Who cares about Wish - not once have I mentioned it.

It is intended to be a feature. It would be acceptable if the Sorcerer was actually better than the Wizard in other areas, but it's not.



So you'd be happy if Wizards have their schools nerfed?
I'd be happy with the changes that I've made:

Houserule (Buff): Sorcerers gain 2 metamagic at level 3 as normal, and gain an additional one at 7, 11, 15, and 19.
Houserule (Buff): Sorcerous Restoration. At 5th level you regain 2 expended sorcery point whenever you finish a short rest. This increases to 3 at 10th, 4 at 15th, and 5 at 20th. See giantItP (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427376-Wizards-vs-Sorcerer-Spell-List&p=19528547#post_19528547) for comments on this
Houserule (Buff): Give extra spells known based on Origin. See Sorcerous Origins (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aGlSiAbLxyN04vmaOjDt1os3jVy9PhN2iNLvc19I7XU)
Houserule (Buff): Combine spell lists with the Wizard. See the Sorcerer specific spells added to his list under his section.





And I already talked about it on said threads.
Yes, I've read your rude and overly pedantic arguments in the past. I mostly scroll through them because you're unnecessarily rude and often overly specific about minute details like you have been in this thread.


Your attitude makes this discussion not worth it. I'm done responding to you~

[Shaofoo]

Again, there seems to be a misunderstanding. I was typing on my phone so it wasn't super detailed. I did not intend to communicate that they can take spells for any class - if I had I would've made it a lot more obvious as that is incredibly powerful.

Considering the fact that I immediately make references to the Tomelock as someone who does have the ability that you erroneously claim it makes me wonder what you thought I was saying before.


However this doesn't change anything. I'll be explicitly clear here. There are 16 spells that the Wizard doesn't have to prepare in addition to his 29 spells prepared: Alarm, Comprehend Languages, Contact Other Plane, Detect Magic, Drawmij's Instant Summons, Feign Death(who cares), Find Familiar, Gentle Repose, Identify, Illusory Script, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Magic Mouth, Phantom Steed, Rary's Telepathic Bond, Skywrite(who cares), Tenser's Floating Disk, Unseen Servant, Water Breathing. (didn't count skywrite or feign death). There are some really good options in there.

Anyone can have Ritual Casting with a feat, it isn't an unique thing that only Wizards can pull off. it is worth less than you think. If the Sorcerer really truly wanted Ritual casting he can get it as any other character in the game, it isn't a Wizard only deal. Of course in a featless game it is much more unique.




Again, you're being belittling and rude for no reason. You've done this in pretty much every thread about this topic. Please stop.

How am I belittling, I am honestly asking you why are you ignoring huge chunks of the sorcerer? Really I just want to ask, if I was belittling you I would've said something along the lines of are you illiterate or dumb? Did I actually insult you? Really I am insulted that somehow my offhand comment that your PHB is incomplete as an attack to you directly (Well not really insulted, I just wanted to build some drama ;P) but I never knew that book honor is serious business.


I haven't pointed out every class feature of the archetype - on either the wizard or the Sorcerer. Mostly those aren't worth discussing in the overall balance of the 2 classes.

You have used the Wizard school specializations against the Sorcerer Metamagic and ignored the Dragon and Wild options wholly. I would compare Dragon and Wild abilities against the school specialization and if somehow Metamagic and school specializations are equal then Sorcerers have the leg up in the Wild and Dragon specializations, no?


As I've pointed out before Dragon Sorc is worse than an Evocation Wizard at blasting.

Well depends, being able to fly at will is pretty nifty and being able to be more tough is good. Wizards have the advantage in variety but Sorcerers do have other things that Wizards don't have that helps them in blasting and yes it does include metamagic but it is standard for the Sorcerer, or doesn't it count because all Sorcerers have them.


Wild Sorcerer is mostly trash - the only thing of real value is bend luck.p

I think being able to get advantage for a lot of the time to be pretty powerful, it is dependent on DM whims but you could technically have advantage on your rolls as often as you have spell slots. Far from trash but then again it is opinion anyway. But at least make sure you get the actual effects down on paper.




No it doesn't. There are not 93 spells at 9th level to make up the difference. At every level the Sorcerer loses out. Who cares about Wish - not once have I mentioned it.

You ignoring Wish does not make it not exist. Like I said Sorcerers have that chance IF they wanted to. If they don't want to then they can pick another 9th level spell. Just because the Wizard knows more doesn't mean that what the Sorcerer knows is garbage. You seem to think that all the Sorcerer spells are null and void because the Wizard knows more or rather that is the attitude that you are presenting.


It is intended to be a feature. It would be acceptable if the Sorcerer was actually better than the Wizard in other areas, but it's not.

Except the parts where I have said the Sorcerer is better than the Wizard like buffing and slot recovery and slot conversion. You ignoring them doesn't make them go away. And again you seem to be hellbent on setting that wizards are Sorcerers but better in everything. You are definitely saying that why play a Sorcerer when the Wizard is better, at least that is my takeaway.



Yes, I've read your rude and overly pedantic arguments in the past. I mostly scroll through them because you're unnecessarily rude and often overly specific about minute details like you have been in this thread.

Well I would be sorry but since you went in a tizzy because I insinuated that your PHB is incomplete I would just say that I can't take this claim very seriously. I mean is saying that the PHB equivalent of yo mamma?

Your PHB is so dumb that it says the highest INT stat characters can have is 1.


Your attitude makes this discussion not worth it. I'm done responding to you~

Well I wasn't the one armed up on my book's honor being besmirched.

[TopCheese]

Anyone can have Ritual Casting with a feat, it isn't an unique thing that only Wizards can pull off. it is worth less than you think. If the Sorcerer really truly wanted Ritual casting he can get it as any other character in the game, it isn't a Wizard only deal. Of course in a featless game it is much more unique.



Honesty doesn't automatically make rude comments magically not rude.

The presence of feats doesn't make up for the lack of features in a class. That class still lacks features no matter how many optional rule feats exists.

[Shaofoo]

The presence of feats doesn't make up for the lack of features in a class. That class still lacks features no matter how many optional rule feats exists.

Well then can we also add the Sorcerer's Con save bonus as equivalent to the Wizard's Ritual Caster. Considering there are a lot of Wizards who are willing to get Resilient to get Con save bonuses.

[Vogonjeltz]

A Sorcerer can twin buffs while the Wizard can only do one, also the Sorcerer has advantages on Con saves while the Wizard needs to be a 6th level transmutation Wizard or burn a feat to get that. Sorcerers make better buffers than Wizards. Wizards can't do everything a Sorcerer can.

A Sorcerer can also twin Power Word: Kill for only 9 points, allowing them to effectively cast two 9th level spells.


Barbarian with a Greatsword does 26 DPR

I'm running and re-running these numbers and I can't seem to come up with what you're getting.

Barbarian at level 5 using a greatsword, 20 str (+5):

On hit: 2d6+5 (non-rage), 2d6+7 (rage)
On crit: 4d6+5 (non-rage), 4d6+7 (rage)

Every possible roll is a hit:
non-rage: (2d6+5 x 19 + 4d6+5) / 20 = 12.35 x 2 = 24.7 dpr
rage: (2d6+7 x 19 + 4d6+7) / 20 = 14.35 x 2 = 28.7 dpr

normalized over 25 rounds (20 in rage, 5 non-rage) is an average of 27.9 dpr
Assuming advantage weighting (reckless attack) for critting: 361/400 outcomes are hit, 39 crit this shifts non-rage dpr to 25.365 and rage dpr to 29.365 which normalizes to 28.565....

If we assume an adjusted (after subtracting attack roll modifier) AC of 5 without reckless it adjusts to: 19.9 dpr non-rage, 23.1 dpr rage (22.46 normalized dpr)
with reckless: of 400 possible roll outcomes, 345 hit, 39 crit, 16 miss leading to: 24.405 nonrage dpr; 28.245 rage dpr; normalizes to 27.477

Could you provide the work behind that estimate? Also, none of the line items mention subclass (i.e. Berserker, Totem Warrior, Champion, Battlemaster, Eldritch Knight), class features used (fighting style, reckless attack or not, invocations taken, etc...), or feats taken, so it's difficult to judge how accurate those numbers are.

[Kryx]

Barbarian and fighter became incredibly more complicated in my most recent version due to rage and action surge.

I actually forgot to move the ASIs up for the barbarian. I did however check it for the other classes. I'll update the Barbarian now.
See https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=663057041 for Barbarian.

To get the numbers I did I cut away -5/+10, GWM damage, and moved the ASIs up to 4 and 8.

At 5
A barbarian's normal DPR without rage is 19.5. That's from a 60% hit chance, or 84% with reckless Attacks Each greatsword does 10.3 (7 + 4 = 11 * .88 = 9.68 + a crit chance of 9.75 multiplied by 7 = .6825 for a total of 10.3625 DPR). I've assumed a 15% opportunity attack chance (for every melee build besides rogue) which then gets that number mulitplies by .15 for 1.554375 DPR
10.3625 + 10.3625 + 1.554375 = 22.2DPR for his non-raging state
Similar stuff for Rage - he has 26 DPR for that state
Similar stuff for Frenzy - he has 38.1 DPR in that state
At 5 he's not raging 20% of the time. He's raging 80% of the time. Of that time he's Frenzying 40% of that time time. So 20 normal, 48 raging, 32 rage+frenzy.

.20*22.2 = 4.44
.48*26 = 12.48
.32*38.1 = 12.192

= 29.112