New Player Here; How to Monk?

[RyanW1019]

Hello everyone. I am starting a new 3.5 campaign with some friends. Most of us are very new to D&D and are trying to learn the mechanics of combat. One of my friends is a Monk and I'm trying to help her figure out how to make her class work. We've gotten most of the basics down (what is AC, remember to +Str to hit and damage, etc), but have some questions about the more complicated maneuvers. For example, Monks seem to be encouraged to stun, trip, disarm, and grapple their opponents. How do these all work together? If you successfully stun someone, can you then trip/disarm them on the same turn? What about grappling? Is the idea that you hold enemies so your allies can hit them, or does grappling make you more effective at fighting 1v1? Additionally, I've read some guides on how to Monk, and I see a lot of emphasis placed on avoiding attacks of opportunity on yourself & triggering them on others. How does that work? It seems that most enemies wouldn't do anything that provokes an attack of opportunity against you. I also see people recommending that Monks take points in Tumble, but I don't know what you can do with that.

Basically, we are trying to figure out what else we should be doing in combat besides "Choose whether to Flurry or not, roll to hit, roll 1d6 for damage if you hit" every turn. Because doing that a Monk seems like a worse version of a Fighter or Barbarian that is super squishy and doesn't do much damage. Not looking to break out a bunch of additional books or prestige classes, just trying to learn more about combat maneuvers and how a Monk can be useful in battle. I realize that the opinion around here is that Monks are pretty worthless, but I would appreciate advice on how to be as effective as possible with the class my friend has chosen. We are all very new, so this isn't a race to out-min/max everyone else. Although, if certain feats do/don't help us with what we should be doing, I would love to know that.

Details: 3.5e, core only. We are at party level 3/4. Friend is playing a Human Monk.

Thanks in advance for the help!

[Psyren]

Core-only monk is a bad idea as you yourself appear to be noticing, especially in 3.5. They are an extremely weak class.

Without homebrew and splats, the only real hope you have is for the DM to give you better attributes, extra feats or more wealth than they should have for their level. Basically compensating for how bad the class is as written.

[RyanW1019]

Core-only monk is a bad idea as you yourself appear to be noticing, especially in 3.5. They are an extremely weak class.

Without homebrew and splats, the only real hope you have is for the DM to give you better attributes, extra feats or more wealth than they should have for their level. Basically compensating for how bad the class is as written.

I realize that Monks aren't going to be the best class, but we are all just playing to have fun so I don't think that will be an issue. However, the DM has shown a willingness to let us bend the rules (example: I'm playing a Ranger/Rogue hybrid that I'm calling Hunter), so if there is a reasonable argument to be made for some buffs I'm sure he could help us out.

Are you saying that stunning/tripping/disarming/grappling is all a waste of time, and that our Monk shouldn't bother trying to do any of those?

[AvatarVecna]

Some very basic, easy-to-implement changes that would possibly make the monk "passable" is upgrading their HD to d10, upgrading their BAB to full, giving them two extra skill points so they can dump Int without fear, letting them get their flurry extra attacks on a standard action, and giving them some method of flight at the higher levels. And even then, I might not take Monk past 6th level. It's just not very good.

Part of the issue is that non-casters suck in general compared to casters, but the monk sucks even compared to other non-casters.

[eggynack]

Are you saying that stunning/tripping/disarming/grappling is all a waste of time, and that our Monk shouldn't bother trying to do any of those?
Kinda, to various extents. Disarming is almost certainly a waste of time, limited to a small class of opponents and with a debuff capability that is about the same as other styles. Grappling is a bit less of a waste of time, but spells, size, and items alike provide excellent defenses against the style, and you're trading your actions out for those of your opponent at best. Sure, you may be advantaged in the exchange if you outnumber your opponents, but it's a limited and situational bonus. Best option for grappling actually tends to be the druid, partially because they don't have to invest in the style or plan to make use of it in order to be skilled in the role. Tripping can be good, but monks aren't especially good at it, as their unarmed strikes are lacking in reach, and the numbers they can apply to the style are more limited than those of allies. Stunning is halfway decent, but it's not going to be much better than that, especially because you still have to hit your foe, and as other melee characters in the same scenario would be killing instead of stunning.

[Psyren]

Are you saying that stunning/tripping/disarming/grappling is all a waste of time, and that our Monk shouldn't bother trying to do any of those?

At early levels, with good stats, they are decent strategies. But the higher you get the worse they scale, especially if you only have core magic items to help you. Grappling an orc rowdy in a bar is one thing, grappling a Cloud Giant or Adult Dragon is quite another, and good luck trying to stun them too. Tripping is right out unless you find a way to increase your size. And the levels at which these drop off can be surprising.

So no, I'm not saying don't do it - but you clearly made this thread because you perceived a problem, either now or in the near future, did you not?

[RyanW1019]

Kinda, to various extents. Disarming is almost certainly a waste of time, limited to a small class of opponents and with a debuff capability that is about the same as other styles. Grappling is a bit less of a waste of time, but spells, size, and items alike provide excellent defenses against the style, and you're trading your actions out for those of your opponent at best. Sure, you may be advantaged in the exchange if you outnumber your opponents, but it's a limited and situational bonus. Best option for grappling actually tends to be the druid, partially because they don't have to invest in the style or plan to make use of it in order to be skilled in the role. Tripping can be good, but monks aren't especially good at it, as their unarmed strikes are lacking in reach, and the numbers they can apply to the style are more limited than those of allies. Stunning is halfway decent, but it's not going to be much better than that, especially because you still have to hit your foe, and as other melee characters in the same scenario would be killing instead of stunning.

OK, so there isn't really anything for Monks to do besides Flurry of Blows ad infinitum?

[AvatarVecna]

OK, so there isn't really anything for Monks to do besides Flurry of Blows ad infinitum?

Basically. Oh, BTW, you can't flurry if you've moved more than 5 ft (and monks are supposed to be very mobile), and even when you get to flurry, it's usually a flurry of misses because you have Medium BAB and can't fully focus on your offensive stat (Str or Dex)

[Psyren]

OK, so there isn't really anything for Monks to do besides Flurry of Blows ad infinitum?

"I full attack" is a problem all the core-only martial classes face. Though at least Paladins and Barbs get to throw a smite or rage in there, respectively, and Rogues get to do things outside of combat, albeit not very well. Fighters and Monks get... well, nothing.


Basically. Oh, BTW, you can't flurry if you've moved more than 5 ft (and monks are supposed to be very mobile), and even when you get to flurry, it's usually a flurry of misses because you have Medium BAB and can't fully focus on your offensive stat (Str or Dex)

Not to mention flurry has penalties until 9th level :smallfrown:

[Blackhawk748]

Get Imp Trip and Stunning Fist. Your job is now to charge anything squishy and use Stunning Fist on it as you trip it. When they are on the ground, Flurry them. When they try to get up, Trip them again. This tactic should work until around lvl 8-10.

[RyanW1019]

Get Imp Trip and Stunning Fist. Your job is now to charge anything squishy and use Stunning Fist on it as you trip it. When they are on the ground, Flurry them. When they try to get up, Trip them again. This tactic should work until around lvl 8-10.

So you are allowed to use a trip with a melee attack? If so, why doesn't everybody try tripping all the time.

[AvatarVecna]

So you are allowed to use a trip with a melee attack? If so, why doesn't everybody try tripping all the time.

Because the only creatures that can be easily tripped are the ones that aren't particularly inhibited by it (spellcasters and the like). Most anything that would be incredibly inconvenienced from being knocked prone is also incredibly resistant to being knocked prone (brutish monsters, beatsticks, and the like).

[Blackhawk748]

So you are allowed to use a trip with a melee attack? If so, why doesn't everybody try tripping all the time.

With Imp Trip you get an extra attack after a successful trip, you use that attack to use Stunning Fist.

[Telonius]

Yes, Trip is one of the special combat options (detailed here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip)). The problem is that it's an opposed Strength check, versus the target's Strength or Dex, whichever is higher. As a Monk, your stats are likely all over the place; you're probably starting with a lower strength than most of the strong opponents. Larger opponents get bonuses to the check. Also, if the trip fails, the defender has the option of tripping you right back. (You can drop your weapon to avoid being tripped).

[ComaVision]

Core-only, the monk is an OK opener into either Cleric or Druid. I think that's easy to fluff too, the pious monk is rewarded with butt-kicking powers by his/her God.

[RyanW1019]

With Imp Trip you get an extra attack after a successful trip, you use that attack to use Stunning Fist.

So let's see if I've got this straight.

1) Your turn. Move action to run up to a target, then melee attack once and attempt to trip. If you succeed, they are now on the ground and you can attack again, and combine this attack with Stunning Fist.

2) Their turn comes around. They are on the ground, but also stunned, so they can't do anything.

3) Your turn comes back around. The stun on the enemy wears off, but they are still on the ground, so they have a -4 to AC against melee attack. You use Flurry of Blows, for 2 melee attacks. You have a penalty to hit on those attacks, but since they are on the ground it still works out to a +1 or +2 to hit (not including Str or Dex bonuses).

4) Their turn comes around. They stand up next to you, provoking an attack of opportunity. Can they attack you in this turn, or does standing up require their whole turn?

5) Your turn comes back. Melee attack once and attempt to trip. If it works, repeat the whole process again.

This results in you getting 4 attacks off for every 1 or 0 times they hit you. You can do this once per day for each monk level you have (for Stunning Fist). That all correct? If so, that would be much more interesting than just using Flurry of Blows every time, even if it isn't going to do as much damage numerically as a raged barbarian using Power Attack.


At early levels, with good stats, they are decent strategies. But the higher you get the worse they scale, especially if you only have core magic items to help you. Grappling an orc rowdy in a bar is one thing, grappling a Cloud Giant or Adult Dragon is quite another, and good luck trying to stun them too. Tripping is right out unless you find a way to increase your size. And the levels at which these drop off can be surprising.

So no, I'm not saying don't do it - but you clearly made this thread because you perceived a problem, either now or in the near future, did you not?

I made this thread because every class has their gimmicks. Rogues get Sneak Attack, Barbarians get Rage/Power Attack, Paladins get Smite Evil, etc. I figured there was more to Monks than just getting an extra attack per round, but they seem to be geared towards combat maneuvers, which I didn't really understand.

[Psyren]

Yes, Trip is one of the special combat options (detailed here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip)). The problem is that it's an opposed Strength check, versus the target's Strength or Dex, whichever is higher. As a Monk, your stats are likely all over the place; you're probably starting with a lower strength than most of the strong opponents. Larger opponents get bonuses to the check. Also, if the trip fails, the defender has the option of tripping you right back. (You can drop your weapon to avoid being tripped).

On top of that, if they are two or more sizes up, they are outright immune, and some creatures are outright immune regardless (e.g. incorporeal or oozes.)

It's more useful than disarming overall though.

[ComaVision]

4) Their turn comes around. They stand up next to you, provoking an attack of opportunity. Can they attack you in this turn, or does standing up require their whole turn?


Standing up is a Move Action, so they can still attack. Alternatively, they can just attack you from prone with a penalty. Everything else looks right.

When you're assessing how powerful this strategy is, don't forget that anything with high Dex or Str or bigger than the monk will probably not get tripped.

[RyanW1019]

Standing up is a Move Action, so they can still attack. Everything else looks right.

When you're assessing how powerful this strategy is, don't forget that anything with high Dex or Str or bigger than the monk will probably not get tripped.

So it's really only useful vs. other humanoid or smaller enemies. For things like Ogres, she would just have to resort to the "punch everything" method?

[AvatarVecna]

It's more useful than disarming overall though.

That's not exactly setting the bar very high, though. It's like saying that, if you're going to try and stab somebody with a weapon you're not proficient in, you're better off using a longsword than you are using an arrow sans bow.

[ComaVision]

So it's really only useful vs. other humanoid or smaller enemies. For things like Ogres, she would just have to resort to the "punch everything" method?

Something like that. Unfortunately the monk also has low AC and is a prime target for the ogre to smash.

[AvatarVecna]

So it's really only useful vs. other humanoid or smaller enemies. For things like Ogres, she would just have to resort to the "punch everything" method?

That is correct. And once again, because you've got too many stats to keep any really high, and because you've got Medium BAB, and because you have so many things you need magic items to give you, your to-hit is going to be terrible, so you're likely to miss unless their AC is crap.

[RyanW1019]

Something like that. Unfortunately the monk also has low AC and is a prime target for the ogre to smash.

OK. In that case, would it be useful to pick up Spring Attack, so the monk could dart in and out and let somebody else do the tanking?

Additionally, how does Tumble fit into all of this? Is it useful for getting into/out of combat range, or for getting through a fight without taking a bunch of AoOs?

[AvatarVecna]

OK. In that case, would it be useful to pick up Spring Attack, so the monk could dart in and out and let somebody else do the tanking?

Additionally, how does Tumble fit into all of this? Is it useful for getting into/out of combat range, or for getting through a fight without taking a bunch of AoOs?

NO BAD MONK. No taking Spring Attack. You have few enough feats as it is, don't waste three of them specifically to become terrible at fighting.

In regards to Tumble: a Monk with Jump and Tumble max'd out can get very good at tumbling around the battlefield; IIRC, it's a DC 25 Tumble check to avoid all potential AoOs. By 5th level, with Dex 18, max ranks, and synergy from jump, you have a +14, giving you even odds of success and failure.

[RyanW1019]

NO BAD MONK. No taking Spring Attack. You have few enough feats as it is, don't waste three of them specifically to become terrible at fighting.

In regards to Tumble: a Monk with Jump and Tumble max'd out can get very good at tumbling around the battlefield; IIRC, it's a DC 25 Tumble check to avoid all potential AoOs. By 5th level, with Dex 18, max ranks, and synergy from jump, you have a +14, giving you even odds of success and failure.

Oh, I missed that you need Dodge & Mobility to get Spring Attack. Are either of those any good?

[AvatarVecna]

Oh, I missed that you need Dodge & Mobility to get Spring Attack. Are either of those any good?

Dodge gives you a +1 AC against a single opponent, so it's crap. Mobility is...decent for a mobile combatant: it gives you +4 AC against AoOs. Of course, that's pointless if you're really good at tumbling, as I pointed out.

EDIT: So yeah, it's basically three crap feats in a row, with the middle one being most useful for non-Monks, and even then it's still only useful if your idea of a fight is running away half the time.

[RyanW1019]

Dodge gives you a +1 AC against a single opponent, so it's crap. Mobility is...decent for a mobile combatant: it gives you +4 AC against AoOs. Of course, that's pointless if you're really good at tumbling, as I pointed out.

EDIT: So yeah, it's basically three crap feats in a row, with the middle one being most useful for non-Monks, and even then it's still only useful if your idea of a fight is running away half the time.

So basically, Monks aren't good at fighting bosses? Low AC, low +to hit, and low(ish) damage. But in the right situation, they can make up for it by pummelling low-level mooks with many attacks, possibly for free?

[AvatarVecna]

So basically, Monks aren't good at fighting bosses? Low AC, low +to hit, and low(ish) damage. But in the right situation, they can make up for it by pummelling low-level mooks with many attacks, possibly for free?

A Monk is at his absolute best when fighting crowds of low AC, low-HP, low to-hit, low damage mooks.

Unfortunately, just because that's what they're best at doesn't mean they're any good at it. Blasting is one of the weakest kinds of magic available, but it's still better at taking out mook crowds than a monk. V, back me up on this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0919.html)

[Bovine Colonel]

Another thing to keep in mind is that you can't make use of your main combat ability (i.e. Flurry) while using Spring Attack.

[RyanW1019]

A Monk is at his absolute best when fighting crowds of low AC, low-HP, low to-hit, low damage mooks.

Unfortunately, just because that's what they're best at doesn't mean they're any good at it. Blasting is one of the weakest kinds of magic available, but it's still better at taking out mook crowds than a monk. V, back me up on this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0919.html)

Understood. Well, I know I'm always up for some good min/maxing, but hopefully the person playing our Monk won't mind being overshadowed :smallsmile:

[Rubik]

Oh, I missed that you need Dodge & Mobility to get Spring Attack. Are either of those any good?No. They're complete wastes of your feats, useful only for a few other options that require them as prerequisites. If those didn't use Dodge or Mobility as prereqs, nobody would ever take them, nor should they.

[Sayt]

Understood. Well, I know I'm always up for some good min/maxing, but hopefully the person playing our Monk won't mind being overshadowed :smallsmile:

If they do start to get getting overshadowed, ask you GM for dispensation to use Paizo's Unchained Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/monk-unchained). It's still rather dependent on too many stats, but the chassis is built much better, it can actually be maneuverable and punchy, and it can actually hit with it's flurry.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Or let them leave core. Monk + cleric into sacred fist is nice.

[Vhaidara]

If your GM is open to it, you may want to look into Pathfinder's Unchained Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/monk-unchained). It should be about on par with your Ranger/Rogue mix class.
Major points of improvement
d10 HD
Full BAB
No penalty while using Flurry of Blows
Ki Pool that can be used to do cool things (summarized below)
Style Strikes when you flurry (also summarized below)
Better list to choose your bonus feats from

Drawbacks
Drops to a low Will Save (worth it)
Requires some backporting: This is mostly in Skills. Pathfinder did a lot of consolidation (Acrobatics = Jump, Balance, and Tumble, for example). It's pretty easy and logical to fix these.
A lot less auto-pilot: I consider this a good thing, and your friend sounds like she wants bells and whistles to play around with.

Okay, you have a pool equal to half your level + your Wis modifier. As long as you have a point in it, you get the ability to ignore certain kinds of Damage Reduction with your unarmed strikes. You can also spend a point for an extra attack in your Flurry of Blows.

You get a ki power every even level starting at level 4. I'm summarizing them below

Abundant Step (req level 8): This is a normal, 1/day monk ability, now fueled by your Ki Points
Cobra Breath (req 12 and Diamond Body): Diamond Body is below, but it lets you negate a poison affecting you. With this, you then can spit the poison at someone. Not for everyone, but honestly pretty cool
Diamond Body (req 8): spend a ki point, remove a poison
Diamond Mind (req 6): spend a point, remove your fear. 2 points to remove debilitating fear effects
Diamond Resilience (req 12): Spend a point, get DR
Diamond Soul (req 12): Spend a point, get Spell Resistance
Elemental Fury (req 6): Spend a point, your fists are on fire. Or covered in ice. Or crackling with lightning.
Elemental Burst (req 18):Spend 4 points and do a fighting game finisher as you erupt like a volcano
Empty Body: Spend 3 points and become ethereal for a minute
Feather Balance: Spend a point, get perfect balance for a minute
Formless Mastery: Dependent on Pathfinder feats, ignore this one for now
High Jump: Free bonus on jump checks, always treated as having a running start, and can spend a point to get +20. This is when the kung fu hero flips over the line of mooks to reach the boss.
Insightful Wisdom (req 8): spend 2 points to give an ally a reroll
Ki Blocker (req 10): spend a point to lock out another monk's ki pool on hit. The other effects are related to other Pathfinder classes, and therefore don't matter to you
Ki Guardian (req 6): Attempt to make a saving throw for nearby allies. If you fail any of them, you are treated as having failed your own.
Ki Hurricane (req 10 and Sudden Speed): double move, and spend points to make your Flurry of Blows attacks along the way
Ki Metabolism: Survive on minimal food, water, and sleep. Also fake your own death. And hold your breath for hours at a time
Ki Mount: Something for mounted monks. Not relevant here
Ki Range: Spend a point to get more range on thrown weapons
Ki Visions (req 10): spend 2 points from tomorrow's pool, and Obi-Wan comes to advise you in your sleep (you get a Divination casting in your dreams)
Ki Volley (req 16 and Diamond Soul): Spend 2 points to reflect a spell that fails to beat your Spell resistance back at the caster
Light Steps (req 8 and Feather Balance): While Feather Balance is active, ignore difficult terrain and walk on any solid surface
One Touch (req 12): As long as you have a point (you don't have to spend it) you can make a standard action attack as a touch attack, and get a bonus equal to half you monk level on the damage. Spending a point boosts it to your level
Qinggong Power: Very complicated, ignore for now
Quivering Palm (req 16): now costs 4 points
Slow Fall: costs 1 point (this ability was awful even when it was free)
Sudden Speed: Spend a Point, get +30ft move speed for a minute
Water Sprint (req 6): Spend a point, walk on water for a minute
Wind Jump (req 8 and High Jump): Spend a point, and get a fly speed for 1 minute. Little more complicated than that, since you have to land each turn, but this is the guy who scales a mountain by jumping
Wholeness of Body: 2 points, heal 1d8+level

These are things you learn that you can attach to your Flurry of Blows. These are free, and unlimited in use.. You get your first one at level 5, and another one every 4 levels (9, 13, 17, 21, etc). Starting at 15, you can use two different style strikes in a single Flurry. They do restrict you to fist/kick/headbutt, but that's silly and pointless. It does nothing mechanically, and only limits the imagination.
Defensive Spin: +4 to AC versus the target. Wanna duel someone?
Elbow Smash: If you hit, make another attack at the same bonus -5, dealing nonlethal damage. Potential for 5 attacks at level 6 (2 from BAB, 1 from Flurry, 1 from Ki Point spent on Flurry, 1 from Elbow Strike)
Flying Kick: Move up to your Fast Movement bonus before Flurrying. Remember how everyone was pointing out that you can't move and Flurry? Here you go.
Foot Stomp: Lock someone next to you. Combat maneuvers are a Pathfinder simplification of the various Disarm, Grapple, Trip, etc. In 3.5, it would be opposed Str/Dex checks adding Base Attack Bonus
Hammer Blow: Deal double base damage die. Actually scary on a monk since they get really good damage dice.
Head Butt: Stagger them for a round, but suffer a -8 to hit if they aren't the same creature type (so if they aren't a humanoid)
Knockback Kick: Exactly what it sounds like. You kick them backwards. THIS. IS. SPARTA.
Leg Sweep: Such a classic. Sweep the leg, trip them up.
Shattering Punch: Ignore DR/Hardness. Want to break a stack of bricks? Or kick through a wall? Or punch through a golem's chest?
Spin Kick: Aim for flat footed AC by blindsiding them. Again, classic beyond belief.

[Blackhawk748]

So let's see if I've got this straight.

1) Your turn. Move action to run up to a target, then melee attack once and attempt to trip. If you succeed, they are now on the ground and you can attack again, and combine this attack with Stunning Fist.

2) Their turn comes around. They are on the ground, but also stunned, so they can't do anything.

3) Your turn comes back around. The stun on the enemy wears off, but they are still on the ground, so they have a -4 to AC against melee attack. You use Flurry of Blows, for 2 melee attacks. You have a penalty to hit on those attacks, but since they are on the ground it still works out to a +1 or +2 to hit (not including Str or Dex bonuses).

4) Their turn comes around. They stand up next to you, provoking an attack of opportunity. Can they attack you in this turn, or does standing up require their whole turn?

5) Your turn comes back. Melee attack once and attempt to trip. If it works, repeat the whole process again.

This results in you getting 4 attacks off for every 1 or 0 times they hit you. You can do this once per day for each monk level you have (for Stunning Fist). That all correct? If so, that would be much more interesting than just using Flurry of Blows every time, even if it isn't going to do as much damage numerically as a raged barbarian using Power Attack.

Other than forgetting that they invoke an Attack of opportunity when they get up, which you use to trip them then punch them again, yes you got it right. Also Combat Reflexes is good for this. If you wheren't in core i would recommend Flying Kick so you get more damage when you charge that poor sucker. Obviously your battle cry is "DYNAMIC ENTRY!!!"

[Rubik]

Other than forgetting that they invoke an Attack of opportunity when they get up, which you use to trip them then punch them again, yes you got it right.AoOs take place just before the action that provoked them, so they're still prone when you try to trip, meaning this doesn't work. You can, however, AoO with a Stunning Fist attempt, which keeps 'em down.

[Blackhawk748]

AoOs take place just before the action that provoked them, so they're still prone when you try to trip, meaning this doesn't work. You can, however, AoO with a Stunning Fist attempt, which keeps 'em down.

Oh crap, forgot about that. So ya Stunning Fist, Extra Stunning is actually useful in this build.

[Mystral]

If you don't mind putting in a bit of extra learning work, an unarmed swordsage would do nicely. It is actually one of the best ways to accomplish the "unarmed mystical combatant" archetype, and I'm suprised it hasn't been mentioned yet.

The Swordsage is in a book called "Tome of Battle", and it is sort of like guy using fighting magic, except not really. He gets a number of maneuvers, which are special attacks which are expended on use and have to be readied again, as well as some boosts to his attacks, some utility powers and some stances. It can be played in a variety of ways, like a shadow ninja, a throwing and grappling specialist, are guy who can punch through walls (and the enemy hiding behind the walls), a fighter who can throw fire like Ryu from Street fighter, or a warrior who hits with the force of his own will.

Edit: Nevermind, just saw that you guys are playing core only. Let him play a barbarian with a gauntlet. That's far more effective as an unarmed combatant.

[AvatarVecna]

Ooh! I don't know how how we forgot to mention this yet, but it's relevant: monks aren't proficient with unarmed strike as a weapon.

[Blackhawk748]

Ooh! I don't know how how we forgot to mention this yet, but it's relevant: monks aren't proficient with unarmed strike as a weapon.

*glares pointedly* we know, but any sane DM lets them be.

[AvatarVecna]

*glares pointedly* we know, but any sane DM lets them be.

A sane, reasonable DM with an understanding of the game would give the whole Monk chassis an overhaul, or at least a very widespread upgrade. Dealing with what ifs is great, but we may as well mention every potential issue they're going to come across trying to play a monk, otherwise it might sneak up on them and cause them to suck even harder than they already did.

Not that it matters that much, I guess. When you go from "basically only hitting on a crit" to "literally only hitting on a crit", it's not that relevant, but whatever.

[RyanW1019]

Ooh! I don't know how how we forgot to mention this yet, but it's relevant: monks aren't proficient with unarmed strike as a weapon.

Don't they get Improved Unarmed Strike at level 1? I would think that that would cover any unarmed-related needs. Or is it one of those things where it isn't technically in there, but everybody lets it go?

[Bronk]

Using stun can be pretty great though. For example, many DMs forget that a stunned character drops everything held in the hands.

Not too long ago, I was playing in a party that was getting demolished by one tough opponent with a fancy sword... One stun later the sword was on the ground, and another party member's familiar picked it up and dragged it away. The look on the DM's face was priceless.

[Vhaidara]

Don't they get Improved Unarmed Strike at level 1? I would think that that would cover any unarmed-related needs. Or is it one of those things where it isn't technically in there, but everybody lets it go?

There are a few curmudgeonly individuals who consistently make the point that monks are not proficient with their unarmed strikes (Improved unarmed strike is different). They have admired to houseruling it otherwise, but consistently make the point as if they do play with it.

[AvatarVecna]

Don't they get Improved Unarmed Strike at level 1? I would think that that would cover any unarmed-related needs. Or is it one of those things where it isn't technically in there, but everybody lets it go?


Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.

Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields

When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
Improved Unarmed Strike (General)
Benefit
You are considered to be armed even when unarmed —that is, you do not provoke attacks or opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed. However, you still get an attack of opportunity against any opponent who makes an unarmed attack on you.

In addition, your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your option.

Normal
Without this feat, you are considered unarmed when attacking with an unarmed strike, and you can deal only nonlethal damage with such an attack.

Special
A monk automatically gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat at 1st level. She need not select it.

A fighter may select Improved Unarmed Strike as one of his fighter bonus feats.Neither the Monk base class nor the Improved Unarmed Strike feat grant proficiency with Unarmed Strikes. They get a great many other benefits, but they are not proficient in the weapon itself, so without spending a feat on proficiency, or a level dipping into something with proficiency, a monk takes a -4 penalty on all unarmed strike attack rolls by RAW.

Yeah, it sucks being a RAW monk, especially in Core.

EDIT: For the record, I do not and have never played with this in place, nor has anybody I've ever talked to on the subject. That being said, it is the Rules As Written on the subject, and bears mentioning for that reason. It is, in my opinion, a great way of showing off just how much the designers didn't know what they were doing when they made the monk.

[Draconium]

Don't they get Improved Unarmed Strike at level 1? I would think that that would cover any unarmed-related needs. Or is it one of those things where it isn't technically in there, but everybody lets it go?

Improved Unarmed Strike only lets you deal lethal damage unarmed, and be treated as armed at all times. It doesn't give you proficiency. Unarmed Strikes are technically a simple weapon, and monks aren't specifically called out to have the proficiency.

However, yeah, most people just let that slide. I know personally, when I DM, I treat all creatures as proficient in unarmed attacks, though they still can't do lethal damage without the feat.

Edit: *wince* Double ninja'd swordsage'd there.

[Bronk]

Actually, has your friend considered taking, say, one level of monk, then switching to druid? She could be a bear with at least four attacks with another bear fighting alongside by level 6...

[Rubik]

Actually, has your friend considered taking, say, one level of monk, then switching to druid? She could be a bear with at least four attacks with another bear fighting alongside by level 6...This is probably the best way to do it in Core. Don't think of yourself as a druid, think of yourself as a really kick-ass kung-fu panda deinonychus.

[RyanW1019]

Actually, has your friend considered taking, say, one level of monk, then switching to druid? She could be a bear with at least four attacks with another bear fighting alongside by level 6...

That's a neat idea, but our party already has a druid, and my friend likes the idea of your archetypal monk.

I really appreciate all the discussion in this thread. While I realize that monks are pretty gimped in core, I can try bartering with the DM to see if she couldn't get some buffs. Especially given her stats--she rolled 14-12-10-10-10-9 :smalleek: From what I've seen in this thread, monks need good WIS, STR, DEX, and CON, with INT being useful as well and CHA the only true dump stat. It's tough to build a monk when only 2 attributes have positive modifiers. Basically, I was trying to learn what was possible within the system, so I know how much I need to sweet-talk the DM into tweaking the system. :smallbiggrin:

[Vhaidara]

Yeah, monk is vaguely playable if your stat line includes 4 18s. With that statline, you're not getting away with anything but a full caster, probably a druid.

This is why rolling for stats is one of the worst mechanics ever. One bad set of rolls, and you are utterly ****ed for the entire game.

[AvatarVecna]

14-12-10-10-10-9

That's about as bad as it's possible to roll without earning a reroll. Hell, you'd have to have good char-op chops to make a good wizard out of that. Maybe you could make a great druid out of it, if you treated eggy's handbook like the char-op bible that it is. But a monk? No. Your friend's best option right now is to make them a Venerable Elf Monk and have them die from a paper cut so he can get a new set of rolls.

[GilesTheCleric]

If you're going to try to convince your GM to make changes to the game, you might best come armed with some solutions so it's easier. Grod_The_Giant has replaced the monk with the Unarmed Swordsage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16920452&postcount=4) (ctrl+f "swordsage"), but that requires use of the Tome of Battle. I'm sure someone on the forums has a complete PHB monk overhaul (Rubik, maybe?) that you could show your GM as something that others have agreed is a balanced change.

[gooddragon1]

There is one thing that's being forgotten (I think), that's at least a small silver lining for the monk:




There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

If you TWF, you get full strength for both unarmed strikes. Not 1x for primary and 0.5x for off-hand.

I've never seen anything that says you can't flurry and twf at the same time. That means 5 attacks + 3 attacks for 8 total with full Strength. You're losing accuracy due to twf, but since you're using light weapons it's better. Raising your Dex to meet the prerequisites boosts your armor while giving you extra attacks. Focus on Con items a bit to bring your HP to acceptable levels. You should still make Strength your primary focus though. The main problem comes in when you fight something with serious amounts of Damage Reduction. You can mitigate this a bit with your high strength, but let's look at some theorycrafting:

Orc Monk (32 point buy)
Get 16 STR for 10 (20 result)
Get 18 Dex for 16
Get 14 Con for 6
Dump the rest

From the Magic Item Emporium:
Buy the +1 book of Dex Asap to qualify for Greater TWF
Buy the +5 book of STR
Buy the +6 Item of STR
+5 Amulet of Mighty Fists

STR goes to +5 over 20 levels +5 from book +6 from item = 20+16=36 STR = +13 damage +13 attackuracy
+5 for each = +18 damage +18 to hit
Weapon Focus = +19 to hit
Boots of Speed for an extra attack when you need it and +1 to hit = +20 to hit
Assuming damage 2 for 1d6, 20 damage per hit.
-2 to hit in general for twf = +18 to hit
Attack sequence as follows:
+33/+33/+33/+33/+33/+28/+28/+23/+23
Against AC 35, hit on a 2 (you'd miss on a 1 regardless of bonuses barring external effects that could allow a hit on a 1), 5% miss chance, then 30%, then 55%. This means that even with your worst attacks you hit almost half the time. This also assumes no help from allies.
Assuming all attacks hit against DR 10
20 damage - 10 = 10 * 9 attacks = 90 damage. This however ignores external factors such as that you can close the range (if it's flying that means another item), antimagic, the environment is not detrimental, etc. With party assistance you can deal this against DR 15 as well (such as with a balor). This also assumes 32 point buy, orcs being allowed, and a magic item emporium (which means you can buy what you want whenever you have the funds for it, that is generally unrealistic).

Also

This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full.

If you're carrying use activated items in both hands, you can still make your attacks.

[Psyren]

I've never seen anything that says you can't flurry and twf at the same time.

Then you can't have been on this forum very long, because this is one of those extremely controversial 3.5 topics where its impossible to gain consensus.

[AvatarVecna]

If you TWF, you get full strength for both unarmed strikes. Not 1x for primary and 0.5x for off-hand.

I've never seen anything that says you can't flurry and twf at the same time.

Both of these things are correct; they are also traps that make the Monk even worse.

The first establishes that, yes, Monks need Str as well as Dex and Wis in order to operate; seeing as all characters (especially melee combatants) need Con, that means that a Monk needs 4 relatively high stats in order to operate. As for the second thing...yes, you can get up to 3 more attacks; all you have to do is add another -2 penalty to all the attack rolls! What a deal! Seriously, monks miss often enough as it is; adding on penalties to give them more attacks just means they get to make that many more whiffs per round.

[Draconium]

Both of these things are correct; they are also traps that make the Monk even worse.

I'm pretty sure that the Monk class, as written, can be summed up in three words: "It's a trap!"

Seriously, Monk looks good at first glance, but it requires major multiclassing, splatbook, and magic item investment, along with high knowledge of optimization, to make them good.

[Rubik]

I'm sure someone on the forums has a complete PHB monk overhaul (Rubik, maybe?) that you could show your GM as something that others have agreed is a balanced change.I...have an idea. It's so crazy, it just might work!

I'd suggest that she liquidate all the items she's got, acquire more funds from the rest of the party, and purchase a casting of Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) to turn her into, say, a centaur, ogre, or merrow (aquatic ogre). They have decent stats, and the new form will give her considerably more oomph.

She can upgrade later on, once she's got more hit dice and can afford another scroll.

Just make sure to ask the DM not to use Dispelling against her. She's already got enough problems as it is.

[DMVerdandi]

Op, everyone gave you a really good lesson.
It doesn't matter how much you polish a turd. It is what it is.

Luckily, there is hope, and that hope is with the monk's belt. If your intention is to help your friend play the monk, the most helpful thing you can say is, play a cleric or a druid, and then, give them unarmed feats, and role-play them as kung-fu fighters.

"MONK", is the worst way to play an unarmed combatant,Wuxia fighter, Shaolin monk, Wu tang exponent, etc.

Firstly, it's sad you guys are playing a core only game, and I hope one day you guys can either convince the DM, or take control and DM yourselves, because Core only is essentially playing nightmare mode for all but like 4 classes.

Secondly, don't let the book define anything for you. Think of the classes like a box of crayons.
Casters are like the 62 box set of oil crayons. Fantastic.
Mundanes are like the 8 box set of fat wax crayons.

Now, you can draw the mona lisa with both, but one is going to be infinitely harder than the other, have a worse result, and generally look like offal.




Have your friend take a dive.
-Get herself killed.
-Re-roll a cleric or a druid [but actually use point buy]
Wis and Con, are the most important stats. Druids are not stat dependent at all, so that might be the better choice.
-Buy a monk's belt
-???
-WALA a 'monk' that actually has a good chance at surviving, beating bosses, all of that. Plus, Chi magic.

U-mogwi-gui-fi-dizhao

[Rubik]

-WALA"Voila."

Beyond that, I agree. Though if she wants to keep playing her monk, ask the DM if she can scrap her current build for her character and rebuild her as something else.

Monk IS good for up to a 2-level dip, and with the variants and alternative class features out there, can go considerably higher if you're willing to optimize a lot to make up for the shortcomings the monk still has, even with those.

But with those stats, she's going to be horrible no matter what she does. Ramp up the stats, change the build, and let her play an unarmed martial arts combatant that's actually effective. It'll be way more fun for her. No sense in driving her away from a fun hobby by making her first time frustrating and miserable. Or Polymorph Any Object her into something with much higher stats and try a few different approaches to her build to see if she can make the best of what she's got by playing with the rules you're given.

[DMVerdandi]

"Voila."
(Wala is a meme. It's a sarcastic Voila.
Like Lel is to Lol)



Beyond that, I agree. Though if she wants to keep playing her monk, ask the DM if she can scrap her current build for her character and rebuild her as something else.

Monk IS good for up to a 2-level dip, and with the variants and alternative class features out there, can go considerably higher if you're willing to optimize a lot to make up for the shortcomings the monk still has, even with those.

But with those stats, she's going to be horrible no matter what she does. Ramp up the stats, change the build, and let her play an unarmed martial arts combatant that's actually effective. It'll be way more fun for her. No sense in driving her away from a fun hobby by making her first time frustrating and miserable. Or Polymorph Any Object her into something with much higher stats and try a few different approaches to her build to see if she can make the best of what she's got by playing with the rules you're given.

It Could be done as a dip for sure, but a lot of the things that make it so very worth dipping are in other book.
Wis SADness for example gets REALLY good when you can get more than ac and spells with it.

It's just not fantastic in core, especially, because of the lack of things like practiced spell caster, Wis bonus races, and other various tidbits.


Monk really is High skill level optimization man...:smallfrown:
And it's really made worse by the fact that 5 levels of the class are like 13,000 gp.

[LudicSavant]

So basically, Monks aren't good at fighting bosses?

Core-only Monks aren't good at... well, anything at all, sadly. Even their strongest points are things that pretty much everyone else does better, as other people in the thread have mentioned. The core Monk is infamous as one of the weakest things in the entire game besides some (not even all!) of the NPC classes.

Now I know you said you didn't want to go through a lot of books and that it was core only, but I would feel remiss if I didn't mention two things that are basically WotC's official Monk fixes. The Tashalatora feat (in Secrets of Sarlona) offers a massive improvement to the Monk class. Alternatively, there's the Swordsage with the Unarmed variant (in Tome of Battle).

I'm actually kinda shocked nobody in the thread mentioned Tashalatora yet.

[Rubik]

I'm actually kinda shocked nobody in the thread mentioned Tashalatora yet.I'd thought of it, but the group is just starting out, and they're using Core-only. No psionics, and no Eberron.

Kinda limited in options, here.

[Malroth]

About the Only thing salvageable about the Monk is the fact their whole body counts as a manufactured weapon and under some readings this means they can be enchanted using craft magical arms and armor. This reading requires a Lot of cheese tolerance at your table and a whole ton of optimization knowledge to actually use. The easiest way to fix this game is to ditch the core only premise or expect a team of all clerics and druids.

[AceOfFools]

A few suggestions for how to make monk less... absolutely useless...

-Give them fighter BaB, either all the time or just when using flurry of blows.
-Increase HD to d10
-6 skill points a level
-Increase the class based AC bonus to 1 every 3 levels instead of one every 5 (rogues with magic armor will probably still out AC them) or, alternatively give them DR/- equal to their class based AC bonus.

If your friend is interested in unarmed combat suggest that she multiclass fighter/monk favoring the former. With those stats she'll be better off in light armor than relying on wisdom for ac (yes she loses some monk stuff this way, but I think she keeps evasion) and this way she can take the fighter specific bonus feats like weapon spec to make her better at punching and so forth. It will actually make her a better grappler than pure monk.

And try to get the GM let her reroll those stats. Having a net total bonus less than +3 is devistating.

[Telonius]

And try to get the GM let her reroll those stats. Having a net total bonus less than +3 is devistating.

Yeah, that statblock is one of the worst I've ever seen. When a player rolls strictly worse than Elite Array, it's time to cut them a break, no matter what they were trying to play. That goes double for a first-time player. You could make a Warlock, Dragonfire Adept, or Artificer work with that, but otherwise... ? And in Core, there's not much to do but start over.

[eggynack]

You could make a Warlock, Dragonfire Adept, or Artificer work with that, but otherwise... ? And in Core, there's not much to do but start over.
Any full caster does pretty much fine with that stat arrangement, druids especially, so that's four classes right there. You can drop down to 10's and 11's without casters getting too hurt, only losing 2nd level spells at 3rd (meaning that sorcerers get a smooth progression), and lower numbers are problematic but not necessarily the doom of those classes. Notably, wild shape plus the animal companion means that druids can basically run on nothing for stats, a pile of 3's, and still have significant game impact. That's in core, too. Leave core and they might be able to actually cast spells off of a stat arrangement that's that low, at some point anyway, though it depends on what the specific awful arrangement looks like and what you think happens when racial adjustments put a stat at zero or lower.

Monks, however, are definitely not on that list of awesome NAD classes.

[Bronk]

That's a neat idea, but our party already has a druid, and my friend likes the idea of your archetypal monk.

I really appreciate all the discussion in this thread. While I realize that monks are pretty gimped in core, I can try bartering with the DM to see if she couldn't get some buffs. Especially given her stats--she rolled 14-12-10-10-10-9 :smalleek: From what I've seen in this thread, monks need good WIS, STR, DEX, and CON, with INT being useful as well and CHA the only true dump stat. It's tough to build a monk when only 2 attributes have positive modifiers. Basically, I was trying to learn what was possible within the system, so I know how much I need to sweet-talk the DM into tweaking the system. :smallbiggrin:

Well, it won't be impossible to play, especially if everyone else chips in and helps her out with stat boosting items and an amulet of mighty fists, but the DM sweet-talking would be better off begging for a few new ability score rolls! Maybe a best 3 dice out of 4, roll up a few sets, pick the best? Maybe a point buy?

[AvatarVecna]

Well, it won't be impossible to play, especially if everyone else chips in and helps her out with stat boosting items and an amulet of mighty fists, but the DM sweet-talking would be better off begging for a few new ability score rolls! Maybe a best 3 dice out of 4, roll up a few sets, pick the best? Maybe a point buy?

Statistically speaking, rolling 4d6b3 6 times for new stats would be better than what they have now, because virtually all the possibilities that are actually worse are bad enough to warrant a reroll by the rules. I'd say this is the equivalent of 17 point-buy, except if I had 17 point-buy, I'd put an 18 in Wisdom and play a druid. With this array, the best you'll ever be is "barely useful", and that's only if the other players and the DM alike take enough pity on you for your character to end up with far more WBL than they have any right to have.

[Blackhawk748]

Thirding the reroll. I wouldnt let anyone play with rolls like that.

[Deophaun]

About the Only thing salvageable about the Monk is the fact their whole body counts as a manufactured weapon and under some readings this means they can be enchanted using craft magical arms and armor.

Which also means they get hardness :)

[BRKNdevil]

Talk to your DM, Convert the Unchained Monk from Pathfinder and pick up Weapon Finesse and Deadly Agility from Path of War

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Deadly-Agility-Combat-

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/monk-unchained

Congratulations, you now have a Monk who doesn't suck and at high levels, can start a flurry from 60ft away. In addition, you have 3 stats you can focus on, Dex, Con, and Wis and you can have the rest be 10 or lower. Grab Kalashtar and get the embedded shard that gives you a larger size fist and get something to give you greater mighty wallop

Alternatively, Go Shadowsun Ninja from ToB, 2 levels of monk 4 levels of Swordsage, rest Shadowsun

Get the feats, Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade to have Dex only for damage and hit

[Solaris]

Picking up some cleric levels might not be a bad idea. If your friend wants to stick with the melee role, cleric has a lot of nice buffing spells and a reasonably solid chassis (same as the monk, but monks get nothin' while clerics get buffin'). Strength and War are rather nice for that, and Strength domain gives the enlarge person spell - which effectively gives a +5 bonus to grapple and trip checks. It would've probably been better to make the jump at 3rd level (so only 2nd-level monk), but you're still early enough in the game that the cleric will have time to catch up.

Also, your DM really ought to consider that re-roll. Those stats are atrocious for 3.5E.

[Rubik]

It is possible to seriously optimize a monk, but you need a lot more than just Core in order to get anywhere.

There are lots of items and other effects that can enhance a monk's unarmed strike (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863), but if you'll notice, none of it is in the Core Rulebooks. You'll need spells for that, meaning that, as others have already said, you will have to multiclass. If psionics were available, I'd suggest heading into psychic warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm), or maybe levels in war mind, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/warMind.htm) and scalping the Tashalatora feat from Secrets of Sarlona (which allows one manifesting class of your choice to advance various monk features) but alas, none are Core. All but Tashalatora are free and part of the System Reference Document (a hypertext version of which I linked above), and Tashalatora is just one feat.

I'd suggest the casting of Polymorph Any Object, rerolling the stats and rebuilding the character, or immediately multiclassing into druid. She can just focus on buffing herself and the occasional battlefield control. So long as she doesn't step on the toes of the other druid, everything should be good. Heck, you can build an entire party of druids and not overlap much. Druids are that versatile, easily.