Invocations question

[Spacehamster]

Hello playground.

Quick question, is it intended that the warlock invocations goes on level but not warlock level?

[Ninja_Prawn]

I assumed it was warlock level, but the PHB doesn't actually specify.

[TopCheese]

Hello playground.

Quick question, is it intended that the warlock invocations goes on level but not warlock level?

Warlock level, one of the devs mentioned this in Twitter.

[Spacehamster]

Warlock level, one of the devs mentioned this in Twitter.

Thats good can get enough of the warlock from a few levels dip as is, even tho the optimizer in me weeps a little from it. :)

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Warlock level, one of the devs mentioned this in Twitter.It's also in the Player's Handbook Errata they released a while back:

Eldritch Invocations (p. 110). A level
prerequisite in an invocation refers to warlock
level, not character level.

[TopCheese]

It's also in the Player's Handbook Errata they released a while back:

Ah yes, forgot that they updated that.

[Sigreid]

Well, there's also that they are a class feature and you can't take any other class feature early.

[TopCheese]

Well, there's also that they are a class feature and you can't take any other class feature early.

Tell that to the Archer Bard that poaches ranger spells.

[Sigreid]

Tell that to the Archer Bard that poaches ranger spells.

But that's a bard using his class feature not a ???-ranger using his combined levels to get those spells early in his ranger career.

[TopCheese]

But that's a bard using his class feature not a ???-ranger using his combined levels to get those spells early in his ranger career.

It's still a class gaining class features was at earlier than one should.

Bards and Rangers are both melee/magic hybrid classes and one can poach a higher level ability (spells) from the other. The one poaching spells is a full caster who can go weapon using with a sub class. The bars is getting ranger specific spells earlier than what the game meant for the ranger to get them.

Ranger specific spells were meant for ranger X, however the bard can get them at Bard level (x - y).

[snacksmoto]

It's still a class gaining class features was at earlier than one should.

Bards and Rangers are both melee/magic hybrid classes and one can poach a higher level ability (spells) from the other. The one poaching spells is a full caster who can go weapon using with a sub class. The bars is getting ranger specific spells earlier than what the game meant for the ranger to get them.

Ranger specific spells were meant for ranger X, however the bard can get them at Bard level (x - y).

Wouldn't this fall under "Specific Trumps General"? I've seen people mentioning Lore Bards poaching Paladin's 3rd spell level Aura of Vitality which Paladins get at level 9 while the Lore Bard can poach at level 6.

Or am I reading it wrong?

[TopCheese]

Wouldn't this fall under "Specific Trumps General"? I've seen people mentioning Lore Bards poaching Paladin's 3rd spell level Aura of Vitality which Paladins get at level 9 while the Lore Bard can poach at level 6.

Or am I reading it wrong?

It's both and really there should be a qualifier that says a bard can't learn a spell from a class specific spell list before a member of that class.

A bard shouldn't be able to Paladin better than the Paladin. If anything is specifically tied to a class then another class shouldn't be able to swipe it faster.

[Sigreid]

It's both and really there should be a qualifier that says a bard can't learn a spell from a class specific spell list before a member of that class.

A bard shouldn't be able to Paladin better than the Paladin. If anything is specifically tied to a class then another class shouldn't be able to swipe it faster.

We will just have to disagree here as I don't think any individual spell defines a class.

[TopCheese]

We will just have to disagree here as I don't think any individual spell defines a class.

Access to a specific spell at a specific level helps define a class.

Just like access to other class features at specific levels helps define classes.

It isn't just one thing, classes are a combination of many things. Letting another class take those things, at a much earlier level, is harmful to the identity and function of that class.

[JackPhoenix]

It's the result of simplification of spell lists. Back in 3.5e, some classes got certain spell on lower spell level. (Trapsmith (I think) PrC was infamous for getting Haste as 1st level spell, when Wizards got it as 3rd level). Just as with 5e Bard, that could be abused with classes with abilities to get spells from different class lists. Archivist, for example, could get his spell from any divine caster spell list...which included not only druid, cleric, paladin and ranger, but a bunch of prestige classes with their own specific lists and even divine bard variant...at the lowest spell level possible between all the classes.

[TopCheese]

It's the result of simplification of spell lists. Back in 3.5e, some classes got certain spell on lower spell level. (Trapsmith (I think) PrC was infamous for getting Haste as 1st level spell, when Wizards got it as 3rd level). Just as with 5e Bard, that could be abused with classes with abilities to get spells from different class lists. Archivist, for example, could get his spell from any divine caster spell list...which included not only druid, cleric, paladin and ranger, but a bunch of prestige classes with their own specific lists and even divine bard variant...at the lowest spell level possible between all the classes.

3.5 was broken to all hell because they didn't proof read their own stuff and just shoveled stuff out the door.

This isn't an optional class, an optional prestige class, or splat book class. This is a core class that is able to take away from other classes, before those classes get access to their things. I'm ok with the Bard picking up other features/spells, but not before the target gets their feature or spells. Yeah even features would be fine, if they got them at a later level.

I also don't think you should strive to be like 3.5. Look and feel like 3.5? Sure. But you don't want to work like 3.5 (broken to all hell).

If you allow the Bard to take spells before other classes can get them, later on you have to watch out what you make or you will have a broken set up.

We should learn from our past, not make the same mistakes.

[JoeJ]

If you allow the Bard to take spells before other classes can get them, later on you have to watch out what you make or you will have a broken set up.

So would you rule that a bard can't get Fireball until 13th level, because otherwise they're getting before a eldritch knight does?

[TopCheese]

So would you rule that a bard can't get Fireball until 13th level, because otherwise they're getting before a eldritch knight does?

Really? When did the Eldritch Knight get a spell list of their own? Cause I must have missed that UA. I know the EK takes spells from the Wizard spell list but didn't know they got their own.

Letting the bard take a spell earlier than the ranger/Paladin is like letting the EK grab fireball before the Wizard can pick it up, since you know, fireball is on the Wizard spell list.*

* yeah it is on other spell lists but always as a 3rd level spell and the Bard can't grab it early.