Weapon Choices:Best to worst

[Masakan]

So I previously started a thread that caused a lot of flack, and i think i need to clarify a lot of things.
So I decided to list what i think are the best weapon choices/fighting styles from the best to the worst and why I feel that way. Now I'm not talking about things like tripping or poisoning or anything like that. I'm only going over what your preferred weapon/style of play would be, as well as how well it would function without any outside support aside from feats associated with it. Remember, Just because it's low doesn't make it bad. It's just that Imo it's unreliable and wouldn't be my first choice. As I said there's a plethora of ways to make any style good. The questions is how do they stand on their own?

0:Magic: Uh no your not reading that wrong. A lot of you will probably mention this for some reason or another so let's just get this one out of the way. Magic gives you power defense and utility all depending on what spells you take, it's very easy to make a god caster but most will tell you that's a bad idea, unless your a prick.
The only downside is that Pure spellcasters don't begin to completely take over until the mid to high levels at the earliest., and even THAT may be considered moot for a lot of builds. But enough of that let's get to the actual choices.

1. Two Handed Fighting: Simple and powerful. This is effectively the style of choice for many melee builds, all you need is one feat "Power attack" and it makes it very effective. Leaving room for most anything else you wanna do....unfortunately power attack is part of it's problem as well. If your gonna use a 2 handed weapon your getting power attack by level 9 at the latest, there is no way around it you get it or you don't. Without power attack I have to say, it's not that appealing unless you have a high strength score.

Power attack an 2 Handed Fighting are practically synonymous, you just don't have one without the other in most cases. If there is a reason to 2hand without power attack please someone tell me, I would love to know.

2.Unarmed Fighting: Yes...I think it's one of the better styles in the game, mostly for the fact that there is more support specifically for Unarmed fighting than any other style in the game.(oh but it's so hard and costly to get all the feats and blah blah) BOI! A 2 level dip in monk or a 1 level dip in battle dancer isn't gonna kill you alright?

Not to mention it's very easy to raise the size of it since it counts as a natural weapon for both battle dancer and monk so you can get a lot of damage this way. I actually considered putting this over Two handed fighting just because of how much damage you can get out, but then I realized that, a person really needs to know their material to know who to do it. 2 Weapon fighting has simplicity to it's advantage, and can be slapped on just about any build. Unarmed fighting, you gotta build a certain way,which is what keeps it below imo.

3. Sword and Boarding/Einhandling: I Put these 2 in the same category because honestly I can't decide which one is better. They both do the same thing just in different ways, one is more stand your ground and one is more evasive. Bottom line is they both focus on defense. In terms of damage neither of them are bad it's just two handed fighting can dish out more than either of these 2, and people tend to scoff at defense since in the eyes of many it's easier to just pump out as much damage as possible. A Notion i disagree with but that's beside the point.
Sword and boarding has more obvious support, Einhandling you gotta get a little creative.

However I would NEVER use either of these by themselves, they work much better as part of a gish build. Sword and boarders for Divine gishes and einhandleing for more arcane orientated gishes. So Cleric and Sorcerer Respectively. Bottom line Not bad, Not good Middle of the road.

4:Ranged(Throwing and Archery) I decided to put them in the same category, because both of them suffer from the same problem, one more so than the other. Ok so Archery can potentially have massive range, but the farther in the campaign you go the more you realize im doing piss all for damage. To this end most build archers to be played at such a far distance that they serve is little more than artillery, but what if your forced into a dungeon where you can't have that range? Well to put it simply, your screwed.

It's because people build this way that, people consider short bows to be the single worst bow in the game.....pretty ironic considering that the class i consider the best archer can only use a short bow naturally.
Yes Bards are imo The best archers in the game..but it only works if you go into Lyric Thaumaturge, Grab Heighten Spell Asap. Congratulations you now have damage most archers can only dream of. The only downside is that you can't get longbow proficiency naturally.....Oh hi elves how are you doing today? But as I said this list is without help from outside forces. On it's own its.....let's just say your gonna want to do more than be good with a bow to contribute

5 Two Weapon Fighting:.....ugh. I can not get over how much of a headache this is by itself. Yes there are multiple ways to work around it(Pounce, Travel Devotion, Sudden Leap). And one even suggested using 2 Weapon fighting as part of a throwing build which indeed works. The problem comes when you try to use this as part of a melee build. Which effectively forces you to stay in a singular spot to get the most damage out, otherwise you would literally do no more if not less damage than sword and boarding and Einhandleing(considering your aim is to rip out as many attacks as possible).
Every other style has the benefit of inherent mobility, this one doesn't. you effectively become The team tank. So god help you have a hit die lower than a d10. You don't even have the benefit of having a free hand, and I think there are weapon crystals you would rather buy than a quick draw crystal, and no dropping your weapon doesn't help because then your not two weapon fighting anymore.

In case you didn't realize, I hate 2 Weapon fighting. I find it incredibly unwieldy without some sort of method or trick to make it keep up with other styles. It can work don't get me wrong. But by itself...im just gonna say this flat out. Unless you intend to go full berserker mode, or have some way of getting high amounts of damage reduction, No sane person should ever use 2 weapon fighting by itself......although as I'm typing this. I imagine this style would actually work much more effectively with stone dragon rather than Tiger Claw.

[Psyren]

1) You forgot natural weapons, this should be separate from unarmed strike as the rules are very different.
2) Sword and board and Einhander are not the same thing - the latter involves keeping one hand empty, which has different implications.
3) A subset or alternate form of TWF is TWF with a 2-hander + a handless weapon (e.g. armor spikes) which is fairly useful.
4) Throwing and Archery should be split out. Also, TWF applies to the former too, so you may want to clarify that the TWF you mean is melee.
5) I'd say the "worst" award actually goes to slings myself, at least in 3.5.
6) Speaking of which, is this only for 3.5 or for PF too? (Since PF has all these fighting styles as well.)

[Masakan]

1) You forgot natural weapons, this should be separate from unarmed strike as the rules are very different.
2) Sword and board and Einhander are not the same thing - the latter involves keeping one hand empty, which has different implications.
3) A subset or alternate form of TWF is TWF with a 2-hander + a handless weapon (e.g. armor spikes) which is fairly useful.
4) Throwing and Archery should be split out. Also, TWF applies to the former too, so you may want to clarify that the TWF you mean is melee.
5) I'd say the "worst" award actually goes to slings myself, at least in 3.5.
6) Speaking of which, is this only for 3.5 or for PF too? (Since PF has all these fighting styles as well.)
Pathfinder helps out a lot of these.

[Psyren]

Pathfinder helps out a lot of these.

In many ways yes but it hurts some too. The "reach weapon + armor spikes" comes to mind for instance, PF won't let you threaten both reach and adjacent by combining these, a ruling I disagree with. I think a brutal warlord in spiked armor with a vicious-looking polearm is both iconic and fun.

[Bakkan]

3. Sword and Boarding/Einhandling: I Put these 2 in the same category because honestly I can't decide which one is better. They both do the same thing just in different ways, one is more stand your ground and one is more evasive.

I'm confused on this point. What makes Einhanding sufficienly evasive to match the additional AC granted by Sword and Board? I looked at the Einhander feat, which is the only feat I'm aware of that would benefit having a hand free specifically.

The Narrow Profile maneuver's benefit is matched by a vanilla heavy shield, but the shield's bonus applies all the time.

The Off-Hand Balance maneuver does make Tumbling easier, but since avoiding Attacks of Opportunity is a flat DC 15 check, this benefit is quickly made irrelevant. Also, this won't help to close range with someone with a reach weapon, since you have to hit them first.

The Off-Hand Swap maneuver first requires that you be able to make a full attack, at which point Two-Weapon Fighting starts to become viable, and then it requires you to succeed on a feint, and even if both succeed, all you get is your opponent denied his Dex bonus for one attack. If this is particularly relevant to you, you likely are a rogue (or have some other extra damage that procs in this situation), in which case Two-Weapon Fighting is even better.

In summary, I can't see any benefit to using this feat over Sword and Board except for an extra situational +2 to Tumble checks, which is certainly not enough of a benefit to outweigh the +2 to +7 AC and/or special abilities you get from having a shield.

So far I am assuming that we are discounting the existence of Animated Shield, but if that option is available, then what we have is <any other fighting style> and Board, which is a separate question.

Am I forgetting some other feat that benefits the einhander style? Have I overlooked something?

[Masakan]

I'm confused on this point. What makes Einhanding sufficienly evasive to match the additional AC granted by Sword and Board? I looked at the Einhander feat, which is the only feat I'm aware of that would benefit having a hand free specifically.

The Narrow Profile maneuver's benefit is matched by a vanilla heavy shield, but the shield's bonus applies all the time.

The Off-Hand Balance maneuver does make Tumbling easier, but since avoiding Attacks of Opportunity is a flat DC 15 check, this benefit is quickly made irrelevant. Also, this won't help to close range with someone with a reach weapon, since you have to hit them first.

The Off-Hand Swap maneuver first requires that you be able to make a full attack, at which point Two-Weapon Fighting starts to become viable, and then it requires you to succeed on a feint, and even if both succeed, all you get is your opponent denied his Dex bonus for one attack. If this is particularly relevant to you, you likely are a rogue (or have some other extra damage that procs in this situation), in which case Two-Weapon Fighting is even better.

In summary, I can't see any benefit to using this feat over Sword and Board except for an extra situational +2 to Tumble checks, which is certainly not enough of a benefit to outweigh the +2 to +7 AC and/or special abilities you get from having a shield.

So far I am assuming that we are discounting the existence of Animated Shield, but if that option is available, then what we have is <any other fighting style> and Board, which is a separate question.

Am I forgetting some other feat that benefits the einhander style? Have I overlooked something?

I'm sorry I kind of made that notion under the assumption that when einhandling you would always be fighting defensively, since the only real way to make it particularly useful is to pump your dodge ac as high as possible, and find a way to get uncanny dodge.
5 ranks in tumble grab the cautious trait, and get a broadblade shortsword or something. I suppose I should have clarified, OH and your also getting deadly defense, (but what if) Your getting it! Yes you are.

[Bakkan]

All right, I understand that now. Even so, who wouldn't you do all that and use a +1 Heavy Steel Shield (or a +2 Buckler), get all the same benefits, and 1 more AC than is given by Narrow Profile.

[Masakan]

All right, I understand that now. Even so, who wouldn't you do all that and use a +1 Heavy Steel Shield (or a +2 Buckler), get all the same benefits, and 1 more AC than is given by Narrow Profile.
Keep in mind my way at least, assumes your gishing and plan to make heavy use of the shield spell, and as far as I can tell they don't stack.

[Bakkan]

Ah I see. Yes, you're completely correct that the shield spell wouldn't stack with a physical shield, but you say at the beginning of the OP that you are considering these fighting styles on their own merits, using only feats and no other abilities to supplement them. I believe that if one is not gishing there is no compelling reason to use an einhander style over sword and board. If your estimation of einhanding is based upon an assumption of additional abilities, you should spell that out.

[Masakan]

Ah I see. Yes, you're completely correct that the shield spell wouldn't stack with a physical shield, but you say at the beginning of the OP that you are considering these fighting styles on their own merits, using only feats and no other abilities to supplement them. I believe that if one is not gishing there is no compelling reason to use an einhander style over any other (even two-weapon fighting). If your estimation of einhanding is based upon an assumption of additional abilities, you should spell that out.

Even with out the spell shield and even without any sort of flying animated shield you still get a decently high about of ac and benifits
Lets use what little we have to go by
Deadly Defence:1d6 hit die when fighting defencively
5 ranks in tumble +1 ac when fighting defensively
Cautious Trait: Another +1 ac when fighting defensively
Einhander Feat: Another +2 and some benifits
Broadblade shortsword Pre Erreta:+2 Dodge bonus when fighting Defensively

Now by this point you should also more than Likely have a mithril shirt, Decently high dex and gloves of dexterity for the extra boost.

The bonuses by themselves Make your weapon die the damage equivalent of a great sword, and a +8 when fighting Defensively
And you should have +6 Dexterity along with the 4 from your mithril shirt.
Adding up to a total of 28 ac by the time you hit level 9 Not too bad if your going strictly mundane. So you can imagine how crazy it gets when you add the shield spell powered up by abjurant champion. And think about it all this is coming at the cost of just a -4 to hit which is laughably easy to work around.

[Necroticplague]

Even with out the spell shield and even without any sort of flying animated shield you still get a decently high about of ac and benifits
Lets use what little we have to go by
Deadly Defence:1d6 hit die when fighting defensively with a finessable weapon
5 ranks in tumble +1 ac when fighting defensively
Cautious Trait: Another +1 ac when fighting defensively
Einhander Feat: Another +2 and some benifits
Broadblade shortsword Pre Erreta:+2 Dodge bonus when fighting Defensively

That's bonuses for fighting defensively, not einhanding. The only one of those relevant to eihnanding has been nerfed, and the rest you can all apply to any other combat style.

EDIT: Thus, this contradicts the OP, which said it would look at the styles on their own merit, not including any support outside of the feats. So you'd have to consider Einhander with only Feats that are strictly related to being Einhanded, not fighting defensively (which can work with a wide variety of weapons).


I'm only going over what your preferred weapon/style of play would be, as well as how well it would function without any outside support aside from feats associated with it.

[Masakan]

That's bonuses for fighting defensively, not einhanding. The only one of those relevant to eihnanding has been nerfed, and the rest you can all apply to any other combat style.

Yes you can, but here's the question though why would you want to?
Sword and boarding i doubt there would be enough room.
Two weapon fighting your already gonna have a hard time hitting regardless
and Two handed, you would get laughed at for even trying to use any these in a two hander build.

I rather not have a repeat of the other thread, So it would be greatly appreciated if you didn't speak in absolutes and actually provide something constructive, otherwise i respectfully ask that you leave.

I will however say this much, I should have worded that better and talked about feats in general, that and somewhere along the line i associated einhandeling with fighting defensively, my apologies.

[Psyren]

Am I forgetting some other feat that benefits the einhander style? Have I overlooked something?

Yes - you have a free hand. Pure mundanes generally don't care but gishes do, plus a handful of abilities that a free hand is useful for e.g. Deflect Arrows.

[Necroticplague]

Yes you can, but here's the question though why would you want to?
Because you want to fight defensively? If you wanna fight defensively, you take defensive fighting feats. I fail to see why that's inextricably related to the weapon you use.


Sword and boarding i doubt there would be enough room.
Depends on what you use the board for. If its just there for protection, you have plenty of room. If you're also hitting people with the shield, there's not gonna be any, but that's because you're essentially combining two styles (S+B, TWF).


Two weapon fighting your already gonna have a hard time hitting regardless
If -4 to-hit is "laughably easy to work around" (your words, not mine), the -2 for TWF with the proper feat and weapon shouldn't be two hard to work around as well.


and Two handed, you would get laughed at for even trying to use any these in a two hander build. Why would that be? If you wanted to fight defensively, I doubt anyone could begrudge you for taking defensive fighting feats.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Any comparison that concludes that archers don't do damage is flawed from the beginning. Archery is the highest damaging and most consistently damaging fighting style in any of the games--3.0/3.5/Pathfinder and if you come to the conclusion that it does no damage, you're not doing it right.

The real weakness of archery is not a lack of damage but rather that, by core rules it has difficulty with certain types of DR (this is mitigated by splatbooks in all editions which offer blunt arrows, etc; the fact that combo DRs such as good and cold iron or good and silver don't require a golf bag--just a magic bow and a variety of cheap special material arrows--somewhat makes up for it too), and that archers are generally susceptible to being shut down by being cornered by monsters (again, this is mitigated by non-core options in various editions, most notably pathfinder's zen archer monk), combat maneuvers, or spells (wind wall and repel wood in core, fickle winds in pathfinder, etc). Those do not merit putting archery as low as the original poster does--even with those vulnerabilities, archery style is competitive for being he most advantageous combat style in the game.

[Deadline]

Yes you can, but here's the question though why would you want to?

Well, it's a situational thing. If you need to boost your defenses instead of dishing out damage (perhaps you've been strength or dex drained), then it can be a good option for TWF or THF.


Sword and boarding i doubt there would be enough room.

This objection doesn't make sense to me. Could you elaborate on it? It doesn't take any more 'room' to fight defensively with Sword and Board than it does when Einhanding. And as already mentioned, Sword and Board does it better (because of the boosted AC from the Shield).

Like you mentioned, there are a handful of melee fighting styles:

1. THF - Generally the undisputed king.
2. Unarmed - If you have enough caster support (Greater Mighty Wallop), this is a solid option.
3. Natural Attacker - This one is similar to TWF in the sense that you want bonus damage and as many natural attacks as you can manage. You have less accuracy problems with this one though.
4. TWF - As long as you have a solid chunk of bonus damage and can survive in melee, you're set.
5. Sword and Board - As defensive as it gets.
6. Einhander - Poorly supported (only a single feat) and not very useful, unless you need that free hand for some specific reason. Most gishes that I've seen go the THF route (because they can take a hand off the weapon to cast). There are remarkably few builds where Einhanding is preferable. Bladesinger maybe (since it actually requires a one handed weapon and a free hand)? And Duelist, does Duelist require you to do this as well (granted, it's not a great PrC, but I'm just looking for things that require einhanding)? The only other reason I can think of is to shoot for style here, which is a fine reason, to be sure.

As you pointed out, there are several other factors that can improve a style: Pounce makes all of them better, Defensive fighting makes all of them better (although it's situational with regards to THF and TWF), and if you are a caster, then the Shield spell is a solid bonus (for everyone except the sword and board) until you can get your hands on an animated shield.

[Masakan]

Any comparison that concludes that archers don't do damage is flawed from the beginning. Archery is the highest damaging and most consistently damaging fighting style in any of the games--3.0/3.5/Pathfinder and if you come to the conclusion that it does no damage, you're not doing it right.

The real weakness of archery is not a lack of damage but rather that, by core rules it has difficulty with certain types of DR (this is mitigated by splatbooks in all editions which offer blunt arrows, etc; the fact that combo DRs such as good and cold iron or good and silver don't require a golf bag--just a magic bow and a variety of cheap special material arrows--somewhat makes up for it too), and that archers are generally susceptible to being shut down by being cornered by monsters (again, this is mitigated by non-core options in various editions, most notably pathfinder's zen archer monk), combat maneuvers, or spells (wind wall and repel wood in core, fickle winds in pathfinder, etc). Those do not merit putting archery as low as the original poster does--even with those vulnerabilities, archery style is competitive for being he most advantageous combat style in the game.

Huh is that how it is? Granted I've never actually played an archer just going by what i've heard and what i've read up on guides and various books, It always sounded like the biggest problem archery had was that there was no way to add any real damage to your arrows outside of the method i mentioned.


Well, it's a situational thing. If you need to boost your defenses instead of dishing out damage (perhaps you've been strength or dex drained), then it can be a good option for TWF or THF.



This objection doesn't make sense to me. Could you elaborate on it? It doesn't take any more 'room' to fight defensively with Sword and Board than it does when Einhanding. And as already mentioned, Sword and Board does it better (because of the boosted AC from the Shield).


I said that under the assumption that for a sword and boarder, you would ALWAYS get agile Shield fighter or at least i know I would.
believe me when I said I've tried to implement 2handed fighting, but honestly if you don't have the strength for power attack it generally isn't worth it, as power attack is pretty much what makes 2handed fightign so good.

[Deadline]

I said that under the assumption that for a sword and boarder, you would ALWAYS get agile Shield fighter or at least i know I would.

Ah, missed that part. I'll echo what someone else said when they mentioned that if you are using the shield bash and sword, then you are TWF, not really Sword and Boarding.

That said, getting that shield in there can really help if you are going with just a weapon in one hand. Some options for you as a gish would be the Buckler, or the Shield Gauntlet (both of which let you cast with your shield "hand"). See here for a guide on shields: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?123630-3-X-Person-Man-s-Guide-to-Shields

Basically, if you are wielding a weapon in one hand and using the other for casting (and aren't going Bladesinger), then a Buckler or Shield Gauntlet would provide +1 or +2 more AC (before enhancement bonuses) than you would normally get without it. And you don't need to burn an action or spell casting Shield.


believe me when I said I've tried to implement 2handed fighting, but honestly if you don't have the strength for power attack it generally isn't worth it, as power attack is pretty much what makes 2handed fightign so good.

Well, the larger damage dice from a two handed weapon and the ability to apply 1.5 times your strength bonus are also solid reasons for THF (you don't need Power Attack for THF to still be solid). But if you are running a Str 10 or less build that focuses just on Dex, then yeah, it may not be the best option (unless you are ok with Spiked Chains, in which case it's probably still better). If you are doing that, you may want to get the Shadow Blade feat from Tome of Battle.

[Masakan]

Ah, missed that part. I'll echo what someone else said when they mentioned that if you are using the shield bash and sword, then you are TWF, not really Sword and Boarding.

That said, getting that shield in there can really help if you are going with just a weapon in one hand. Some options for you as a gish would be the Buckler, or the Shield Gauntlet (both of which let you cast with your shield "hand"). See here for a guide on shields: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?123630-3-X-Person-Man-s-Guide-to-Shields

Basically, if you are wielding a weapon in one hand and using the other for casting (and aren't going Bladesinger), then a Buckler or Shield Gauntlet would provide +1 or +2 more AC (before enhancement bonuses) than you would normally get without it. And you don't need to burn an action or spell casting Shield.



Well, the larger damage dice from a two handed weapon and the ability to apply 1.5 times your strength bonus are also solid reasons for THF (you don't need Power Attack for THF to still be solid). But if you are running a Str 10 or less build that focuses just on Dex, then yeah, it may not be the best option (unless you are ok with Spiked Chains, in which case it's probably still better). If you are doing that, you may want to get the Shadow Blade feat from Tome of Battle.

That would be nice....if i wasn't so taken by abjurant champions abjurant armor feature. But i suppose a buckler is nice so you don't NEED to cast it all the time. and I imagine that one extra ac helps at lower levels.

[Necroticplague]

That would be nice....if i wasn't so taken by abjurant champions abjurant armor feature. But i suppose a buckler is nice so you don't NEED to cast it all the time. and I imagine that one extra ac helps at lower levels.

The abjurant armor feature ends up providing a +5 bonus to a base of +2 shield bonus. A shield gauntlet can be enchanted so it provides a +5 improvement to a +2 base shield bonus. Plus, its only weakened by dispel magic, instead of going away completely.

[Masakan]

The abjurant armor feature ends up providing a +5 bonus to a base of +2 shield bonus. A shield gauntlet can be enchanted so it provides a +5 improvement to a +2 base shield bonus. Plus, its only weakened by dispel magic, instead of going away completely.
Wait REALLY!? Wait hold on how would that even work?

[Deadline]

That would be nice....if i wasn't so taken by abjurant champions abjurant armor feature. But i suppose a buckler is nice so you don't NEED to cast it all the time. and I imagine that one extra ac helps at lower levels.

Sure, Abjurant Champion helps alleviate the need, and at max level you'll be able to use your swift action in the first round to put up a shield spell that gives solid protection (unless you need that swift action for something else). If you are doing that, the question still becomes, why wouldn't you use a two-handed weapon? I can think of a few answers, you are trying to be Weapon Finesse based and can't spare a feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency, or you are using Bladesinger. But both of those don't make Einhanding a good style, they merely leave it as one of the only styles left that you can do. On the other hand, if it's purely because you find the idea to be cool, then no worries there.

Was there a piece that I'm missing? I know you've stated that your build doesn't let you THF, but as I haven't seen the build I can't offer any specific advice. It's unfortunate that the rules don't give Einhanding the support to be a solid fighting style. Being stuck with it because of other limitations is harsh. Then again, if you don't have decent strength, it's largely irrelevant what "fighting style" you are using, because you're likely doing your damage some other way (given that you've mentioned a Gish, that probably means spells).

Oh, hey! What about the Tome of Battle? Is that a resource you can use? As far as I can tell, Maneuvers don't care if you are one or two-handing, and most of the damage from them doesn't come from the weapon itself, so that might be a viable way to fake an "Einhander style". Jade Phoenix Mage is the Gish option built into that one.

[Masakan]

Sure, Abjurant Champion helps alleviate the need, and at max level you'll be able to use your swift action in the first round to put up a shield spell that gives solid protection (unless you need that swift action for something else). If you are doing that, the question still becomes, why wouldn't you use a two-handed weapon? I can think of a few answers, you are trying to be Weapon Finesse based and can't spare a feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency, or you are using Bladesinger. But both of those don't make Einhanding a good style, they merely leave it as one of the only styles left that you can do. On the other hand, if it's purely because you find the idea to be cool, then no worries there.

Was there a piece that I'm missing? I know you've stated that your build doesn't let you THF, but as I haven't seen the build I can't offer any specific advice. It's unfortunate that the rules don't give Einhanding the support to be a solid fighting style. Being stuck with it because of other limitations is harsh. Then again, if you don't have decent strength, it's largely irrelevant what "fighting style" you are using, because you're likely doing your damage some other way (given that you've mentioned a Gish, that probably means spells).

Oh, hey! What about the Tome of Battle? Is that a resource you can use? As far as I can tell, Maneuvers don't care if you are one or two-handing, and most of the damage from them doesn't come from the weapon itself, so that might be a viable way to fake an "Einhander style". Jade Phoenix Mage is the Gish option built into that one.

Believe me buddy if i wasn't using the tome of battle I would be just like everyone else and not even consider it. Also your right the idea is that your weapon finesse based and you may have to assume that the DM will not let you take more than 1 flaw.

[Necroticplague]

Wait REALLY!? Wait hold on how would that even work?

How would what work?

Also, sorry, realized my math was wrong. I thought shield spell gave a +2 when it gives a +4. So its a case of resource ivesent vs. ac. 2 more points against having to worry about being taken out by a dispel magic.

[Masakan]

How would what work?

Also, sorry, realized my math was wrong. I thought shield spell gave a +2 when it gives a +4. So its a case of resource ivesent vs. ac. 2 more points against having to worry about being taken out by a dispel magic.

Im not sure how abjurant armor would stack on the shield your using unless it activates when its magic enchanted thats the only thing i can think of

[Deadline]

Im not sure how abjurant armor would stack on the shield your using unless it activates when its magic enchanted thats the only thing i can think of

It appears you seem to be under the impression that he said Abjurant Armor applies to a normal shield. It doesn't. It applies to a Shield spell. So basically you are burning spells per day and a swift action each encounter instead of buying a magic shield to get roughly the same effect. One burns more daily resources and an action each encounter, but can be popped with Dispel Magic. The other just burns up some WBL. Which option is better is up to you. It's worth noting that if you are using Tome of Battle, and you want to use some of the Crusader maneuvers that require a shield, the Shield spell won't work for those.

You mentioned that the reason you aren't using a two-hander is the weapon finesse route I was talking about above. If you truly don't have any feats to spend on Exotic Weapon Proficiency for the Spiked Chain, I assume that also means you didn't have any feats to spend on things to enhance defensive fighting? Or do you just not like the Spiked Chain (also a valid reason).

Also, how does your build do its damage?

[Necroticplague]

Im not sure how abjurant armor would stack on the shield your using unless it activates when its magic enchanted thats the only thing i can think of

Huh? It wouldn't. I was comparing using a shield gauntlet enchanted with a +5, to the Shield spell augmented by Abjurant Armor. The main point I was making was that the Abjurant Armor bonus is the same as what you can get by enchanting (+5). And on average, will burn up more resources (over 20 levels, the +5 shield gauntlet is a little over 3% WBL, while the five levels of abjurant champion are 25% of your ECL).

[Masakan]

Huh? It wouldn't. I was comparing using a shield gauntlet enchanted with a +5, to the Shield spell augmented by Abjurant Armor. The main point I was making was that the Abjurant Armor bonus is the same as what you can get by enchanting (+5). And on average, will burn up more resources (over 20 levels, the +5 shield gauntlet is a little over 3% WBL, while the five levels of abjurant champion are 25% of your ECL).
Really with the amount of money it would take, I could think of sooooo many other things i could buy with it.


It appears you seem to be under the impression that he said Abjurant Armor applies to a normal shield. It doesn't. It applies to a Shield spell. So basically you are burning spells per day and a swift action each encounter instead of buying a magic shield to get roughly the same effect. One burns more daily resources and an action each encounter, but can be popped with Dispel Magic. The other just burns up some WBL. Which option is better is up to you. It's worth noting that if you are using Tome of Battle, and you want to use some of the Crusader maneuvers that require a shield, the Shield spell won't work for those.

You mentioned that the reason you aren't using a two-hander is the weapon finesse route I was talking about above. If you truly don't have any feats to spend on Exotic Weapon Proficiency for the Spiked Chain, I assume that also means you didn't have any feats to spend on things to enhance defensive fighting? Or do you just not like the Spiked Chain (also a valid reason).

Also, how does your build do its damage?
Ok, so a large part of the damage comes from spells, like Orb of Lighting and shocking spark(You would only get one blasting spell per level so as to not bog you down.
Then things like Blade of blood, wings of Cover and Wraithstrike, once i have access to level 3 spells by 10 it would be a toss up between Greater magic weapon, Evard's menacing tentacles, and Scintillating sphere(Really depends on what your DM is throwing at you.) a good portion of damage would come from deadly defense, but a lard majority would come from combining blade of blood with either Sapphire nightmare blade or emerald razor(Depending on whether they are heavily armored or Light on their feet)
And combining Wraith Strike with an optimized Insightful strike. I would also have either an energy crystal or alchemic capsules to enhance my weapon damage further.
Level 4 spells is when the truly hard hitting spells comes in (I.E Dalamar's Lightning Lance and Wings of Flurry)

If you want an idea of what I was going for, think Weiss from Rwby or Aqua/Master Xehanort from Kingdom hearts.

[Necroticplague]

Really with the amount of money it would take, I could think of sooooo many other things i could buy with it.

Replace "money" with "levels" and I could say the same about Abjurant Champion. I could think of soooooo many other uses for five levels and a feat (not counting possible levels lost meeting the prereqs. You've either lost spells known and highest possible to meet the requirements early, or are entering late enough that the cost for the shield is close to chump change).

[Sir Chuckles]

Really with the amount of money it would take, I could think of sooooo many other things i could buy with it.


Ok, so a large part of the damage comes from spells, like Orb of Lighting and shocking spark(You would only get one blasting spell per level so as to not bog you down.
Then things like Blade of blood, wings of Cover and Wraithstrike, once i have access to level 3 spells by 10 it would be a toss up between Greater magic weapon, Evard's menacing tentacles, and Scintillating sphere(Really depends on what your DM is throwing at you.) a good portion of damage would come from deadly defense, but a lard majority would come from combining blade of blood with either Sapphire nightmare blade or emerald razor(Depending on whether they are heavily armored or Light on their feet)
And combining Wraith Strike with an optimized Insightful strike. I would also have either an energy crystal or alchemic capsules to enhance my weapon damage further.
Level 4 spells is when the truly hard hitting spells comes in (I.E Dalamar's Lightning Lance and Wings of Flurry)

If you want an idea of what I was going for, think Weiss from Rwby or Aqua/Master Xehanort from Kingdom hearts.

At that point, it's more an idea of spells, not choice of weapon.

I respect the idea of thematically built character. Afterall, I am the guy with a Halfling Chargebarian/Intimidater in his back pocket, but weapon choices:fighting styles can go in so many different directions.

You're no longer making an argument for einhanding, you're making an argument for "einhanding as a thematic choice when playing a gish who is also feat invested in defensive fighting".
Gotta look at things in a bit of a vacuum for these threads. I'd never claim that my Neaderthal Wizard was a brilliant mechanical idea, even if it did end up working.

[Masakan]

Replace "money" with "levels" and I could say the same about Abjurant Champion. I could think of soooooo many other uses for five levels and a feat (not counting possible levels lost meeting the prereqs. You've either lost spells known and highest possible to meet the requirements early, or are entering late enough that the cost for the shield is close to chump change).

Your one of those types who only likes playing god wizards dont you? Remind me to never play a campaign with you.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Your one of those types who only likes playing god wizards dont you? Remind me to never play a campaign with you.

I'm betting you mean batman wizard since a god wizard activy makes the whole party more effective while a batman wizard curb stomps encounters by himself.

All other things being equal, leaving one hand just hanging in the breeze has no mechanical advantage of merit over any other style.

Taking one hand off of a two hander is a free action, so your hand is free when you need it to be.

A shield gauntlet leaves your off-hand free when you're sword amd boarding.

A double weapon makes freeing a hand just as easy for a two weapon fighter as it is for a two handed fighter.

The somatic weapon feat in complete mage means you don't even need a hand free unless you're going to dig something out of your pack.

Wand chambers, from complete scoundrel, make a free hand unnecessary for wand wielding.

Rods can also be clubs and maces, no need for a free hand there.

Staves..... do I really need to spell this one out?

There is very little reason to keep a hand free and it's trivial to free one up if it is necessary. The only time using a single, one-handed weapon is better than literally any of the alternatives is when you're deliberately building your character around the idea of maximizing that style's efficacy. Even then, it's not going to be as effective as the alternatives built to the same level of optimization. This is a provable and long-since proven fact of this system's mechanics. That's simply all there is to it, gish or no gish.

[Masakan]

I'm betting you mean batman wizard since a god wizard activy makes the whole party more effective while a batman wizard curb stomps encounters by himself.

All other things being equal, leaving one hand just hanging in the breeze has no mechanical advantage of merit over any other style.

Taking one hand off of a two hander is a free action, so your hand is free when you need it to be.

A shield gauntlet leaves your off-hand free when you're sword amd boarding.

A double weapon makes freeing a hand just as easy for a two weapon fighter as it is for a two handed fighter.

The somatic weapon feat in complete mage means you don't even need a hand free unless you're going to dig something out of your pack.

Wand chambers, from complete scoundrel, make a free hand unnecessary for wand wielding.

Rods can also be clubs and maces, no need for a free hand there.

Staves..... do I really need to spell this one out?

There is very little reason to keep a hand free and it's trivial to free one up if it is necessary. The only time using a single, one-handed weapon is better than literally any of the alternatives is when you're deliberately building your character around the idea of maximizing that style's efficacy. Even then, it's not going to be as effective as the alternatives built to the same level of optimization. This is a provable and long-since proven fact of this system's mechanics. That's simply all there is to it, gish or no gish.

Then simply answer me this, how many 2 handed weapons are finessible. As far as I can tell there are only 3 right? Elven Courtblade, Sunsword and Spiked chain right?

[Sir Chuckles]

Then simply answer me this, how many 2 handed weapons are finessible. As far as I can tell there are only 3 right? Elven Courtblade, Sunsword and Spiked chain right?

Well, if you go into Pathfinder, you gain the Elven Branched Spear (which also has reach!) and the Dueling Sword. The Estoc, while listed as one handed, also has specific mentioning of being able to be used with Weapon Finesse while still two-handing for the 1.5x strength and extra power attack bonuses.

In relation to einhanding vs. other style, even the inclusion of Weapon Finesse fails to improve it when it still stands next to two-handed two-weapon fighting (spiked chain+armor spikes, both being finessable), vanilla TWF, or sword+board.

But that's not really an issue with two-handed weapons. Finesse builds are often highly specialized and still often inferior to other choices. Half the time, people look for ways around TWF's dex requirements because of this. Multi-Attribute Dependency is a female dog.

[Masakan]

Well, if you go into Pathfinder, you gain the Elven Branched Spear (which also has reach!) and the Dueling Sword. The Estoc, while listed as one handed, also has specific mentioning of being able to be used with Weapon Finesse while still two-handing for the 1.5x strength and extra power attack bonuses.

In relation to einhanding vs. other style, even the inclusion of Weapon Finesse fails to improve it when it still stands next to two-handed two-weapon fighting (spiked chain+armor spikes, both being finessable), vanilla TWF, or sword+board.

But that's not really an issue with two-handed weapons. Finesse builds are often highly specialized and still often inferior to other choices. Half the time, people look for ways around TWF's dex requirements because of this. Multi-Attribute Dependency is a female dog.

So the common concencenses is dex builds suck.

[MyrPsychologist]

I feel like this list is an overly reductive look at things that completely ignores huge portions of fighting.


I don't even see a section for natural attacks, mounted combat, or lockdown builds. Overall this seems to be purely an analysis based on damage but lacks a real mathematical breakdown for its supportive evidence. It doesn't even make mention of the classes nor builds that would be using these styles and how they could stack up to each other.

[Sir Chuckles]

So the common concencenses is dex builds suck.

Well, I could have led with that, but it's not true.
Archers, throwers, that one Drow Fighter ACF, and many other builds use dexterity focused builds.

Are they as optimal as spells or simply hitting things with a big stick? No. Does this mean they suck? Hell no.

The common consensus is that there are several mechanical limitations and expectations on just about each and every fighting style, weapon group choice, class, race, feat, et al.

But another common thing that we, or at least many people here, like to remind anyone that will listen is that if everyone was always choosing the absolute best option, we'd all be playing nothing but Pun Pun.

It's not that a purely dex based build sucks, it's that, assuming equal optimization across all proposed styles and builds, there are mechanically more efficient options at whatever your mechanical goal is.

I'll give an example.

Does my 300lb Halfling Barbarian suck? No. It's less effective than a Human Barbarian with the same build due to movement, but that does not mean it sucks. It does exactly what it's meant to do; liquify skulls with a minotaur greathammer while yelling profanity at enemies to cause them debuffs. All while being a 300lb Halfing.

This isn't an MMO where you get yelled at for not copy-pasting the wiki's current meta friendly build. You get yelled at for insisting that you should do that.
If you want to play Weiss, more power to you. Swiftblade it up. Why? Because that's what you want to play and that's the best way to achieve your goal: Playing a character modeled after a white-haired tsundere.

The problem in this thread is that you're asking a mechanical question and then backing it with non-mechanical evidence. If your end goal is to play a magical teenager, than best to worst fighting styles isn't relevant to the build, nor is it relevant to the discussion on the mechanics presented in this thread.

[Masakan]

But another common thing that we, or at least many people here, like to remind anyone that will listen is that if everyone was always choosing the absolute best option, we'd all be playing nothing but Pun Pun.


Nice to know some of you understand this.



This isn't an MMO where you get yelled at for not copy-pasting the wiki's current meta friendly build. You get yelled at for insisting that you should do that.
If you want to play Weiss, more power to you. Swiftblade it up. Why? Because that's what you want to play and that's the best way to achieve your goal: Playing a character modeled after a white-haired tsundere.

The problem in this thread is that you're asking a mechanical question and then backing it with non-mechanical evidence. If your end goal is to play a magical teenager, than best to worst fighting styles isn't relevant to the build, nor is it relevant to the discussion on the mechanics presented in this thread.

Ok you need to understand that i went for something similar but not identical, and for the love of pete avoid such derogatory wording. It's very unflattering. Seriously thought I thought I was being somewhat mechanical, then again math was always my worst subject in school.

[Heliomance]

Any comparison that concludes that archers don't do damage is flawed from the beginning. Archery is the highest damaging and most consistently damaging fighting style in any of the games--3.0/3.5/Pathfinder and if you come to the conclusion that it does no damage, you're not doing it right.

The real weakness of archery is not a lack of damage but rather that, by core rules it has difficulty with certain types of DR (this is mitigated by splatbooks in all editions which offer blunt arrows, etc; the fact that combo DRs such as good and cold iron or good and silver don't require a golf bag--just a magic bow and a variety of cheap special material arrows--somewhat makes up for it too), and that archers are generally susceptible to being shut down by being cornered by monsters (again, this is mitigated by non-core options in various editions, most notably pathfinder's zen archer monk), combat maneuvers, or spells (wind wall and repel wood in core, fickle winds in pathfinder, etc). Those do not merit putting archery as low as the original poster does--even with those vulnerabilities, archery style is competitive for being he most advantageous combat style in the game.

You're literally the only person I've ever heard make that claim. Seriously, I'd like to see some numbers on that.

I've tried to make archers in D&D before. It is hard. There is very little support for archery in D&D (I don't know Pathfinder, so I won't comment on that), and what there is is mostly for close range sneak attackers. There's only one way I know of to get a Power Attack equivalent, and that's an obscure magic item from a splatbook based on the D&D cartoon - pretty damn likely that your DM won't allow it. It's also pretty expensive. Getting strength to damage requires a composite bow, which doesn't adjust to strength increases, or, again, obscure magic items. Getting more than 1x strength to damage, or more than 1:1 return on Power Attack? Forget it.

Essentially, without extensive and obscure splat support, very specific magic items, or serious shenanigans, a non-SA archer is likely to be doing something like 1d8+3 damage per shot, and getting maybe 5 shots per round. If they all hit, that's 5d8+15 damage, averaging 37.5 damage.

A pure core Barbarian charger with a greatsword, on the other hand, gets one attack doing maybe 2d6 (base damage) + 12 (strength*1.5) + 20 (power attack for 10). That averages to 37.

These are approximate estimates, purely naked builds, core only, around (I would guess) level 12-ish, or so. The damage is about the same, yes? But the thing is:

The Barbarian gets that damage in one attack. That means it deals with DR way better.

The Barbarian's damage largely comes from Power Attack, which means he can adjust it: Do more damage against a lower AC target, or make sure you can hit a high AC target at the cost of doing less damage. The archer can't do that.

The Barbarian's damage stat is also his to-hit stat. Getting better at hitting things also lets him hit harder. The archer doesn't have that luxury - he has to focus on Dex to hit things, which doesn't add to damage at all. The archer also (unless he's pure Ranger) has to keep his Dex high to pick up the Archery feat chain. Strength is a low priority, and even if he does pick it up, he still doesn't get as much damage out of it as the Barbarian does.

If the Barbarian's strength increases, he doesn't have to get a new sword to gain the benefit of it. The archer has to get a new bow if he wants to get more damage from strength.

The Barbarian doesn't actually have to charge to get that damage - he can just stand next to the enemy and hit them. That means he can do iteratives as well, if he wants. Power Attack means it's not as simple as just tripling the damage he does - if he does that, he'll near certainly miss the later attacks - but it does push him well ahead of the archer.

Splat support. With one book - Complete Champion - the Barbarian gets the ability to pounce. Multiple attacks all day every day. With one book - Complete Warrior - the Barbarian gets Leap Attack and Shock Trooper. So that's triple return on Power Attack, and the ability to PA for full without worrying about his attack bonus. Suddenly his damage pulls way ahead - something like 2d6+12+36=55 damage per hit. If he gets both those books, he's laying out 165 damage per round. The archer, on the other hand... the best single book I can find for that is probably Dragon Compendium, which offers the Dead Eye feat, giving you Dex to damage within 30ft. So (still not counting magic items) that would put the archer at 1d8+9 damage per shot, if he'd been pumping Dex as hard as possible. To enemies within 30ft only - hardly what I think of when I want an archer. Also, Dragon Compendium - again, a source likely to be banned. Second best book is probably Champions of Ruin (note how it's another obscure one?) for the Splitting weapon enchantment. Oh look, we're dependent on a specific magic item again. Or you could go for the MMIII, for the ability to be polymorphed into an Arrow Demon - but at that point you're hardly a mundane archer anymore, are you?

Archery in D&D 3.5 is pretty damn terrible. I don't want it to be terrible. I'd love it to not be terrible. I'd like to play archers and have them be relevant. But basically the only way to do it is with precision damage, whether sneak attack, skirmish, or whatever, and that carries its own set of problems. It's certainly not reliable. It's not high damaging, and it's not consistently damaging. It just sucks.

[Greenish]

The standard volley archery usually goes for a really fancy Splitting bow, Rapid Shot, Haste, then stacks on every damage increase they can find, stuff like Ranged Weapon Mastery, Knowledge Devotion, footbow, etc.

It's not tricked out charger damage, but then you don't usually have to kill the tarrasque in one turn.

[Heliomance]

The standard volley archery usually goes for a really fancy Splitting bow, Rapid Shot, Haste, then stacks on every damage increase they can find, stuff like Ranged Weapon Mastery, Knowledge Devotion, footbow, etc.

It's not tricked out charger damage, but then you don't usually have to kill the tarrasque in one turn.

The thing is, though - not only is it not tricked out charger damage, but it takes a lot more effort than tricked out charger damage, and involves a lot more things that non-Playground level DMs are likely to look askance at.

[Greenish]

The thing is, though - not only is it not tricked out charger damage, but it takes a lot more effort than tricked out charger damage, and involves a lot more things that non-Playground level DMs are likely to look askance at.I'll admit it takes some doing, but either that's a gross exaggeration, or we mean quite different things when we say "tricked out charger".

Archery has no claim for either the most damaging fighting style (that's probably some manner of ubercharger/hood, if we dismiss infinite loops), nor the most consistently damaging fighting style (that's what mailman is for), but it's perfectly workable, and I'd even say easier to get to work than einhander, sword & board, or TWF.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Archery in D&D 3.5 is pretty damn terrible. I don't want it to be terrible. I'd love it to not be terrible. I'd like to play archers and have them be relevant. But basically the only way to do it is with precision damage, whether sneak attack, skirmish, or whatever, and that carries its own set of problems. It's certainly not reliable. It's not high damaging, and it's not consistently damaging. It just sucks.

I'll grant that a good archer needs splatbook support, but the same is true for melee too. The claim that archery is terrible is just not true though.
Let's list what i can come up with from memory:

Weapon: Energy Bow (Web) - The classic. Power Shot, automatic strength adjustment, unlimited force arrows. You mentioned that one, but i'll list it for the sake of completeness. There's other bows that automatically adjust for Str, the cheapest in Complete Champion which is hardly obscure.
Prestige Class: Peerless Archer (SM) - Power Shot at level 3, requires PBS, Far Shot, Precise Shot and Quick Draw and BAB +7, so you'll get it at ECL 10.
Class: Fighter 1 substitution level (DoTU) - Dex to damage againt flat footed. Note that it does not require your race to be drow.
Feat: Dead Eye (DComp) - Dex to damage, again.
Weapon: Fierce Enhancement (+2, A&E) - Dex to damage, take three. Note that you lose your dex to AC, but that's hardly a big concern for archers. And Shock Troopers do the same.
Feat: Craven (CoR) - level to damage, needs SA (but a single d6 of SA is enough)
Spell: Snipers Shot (SpC) - removes the range limitation on SA. It's a first level spell, so a single level dip into ranger and a cheap wand will suffice if you can't just persist it.

That gives us an archer that hits for 1d8 + Str + 3 x Dex + BAB + Level + SA per arrow. Throw in Haste, Rapid Shot, Maneuvers like Dancing Mongoose (which work with ranged weapons) and finally Splitting and you can easily get 12-16 attacks per round that hit for 100 damage or more, from 1000ft away if necessary. You can get even more ridiculous with a wisdom based archer because of Owl's Insight.

Sure, Wind Wall can mess you up, but it's not like chargers are without their counters either. That's a problem with relying on a single attack vector in general.

[Heliomance]

I'll admit it takes some doing, but either that's a gross exaggeration, or we mean quite different things when we say "tricked out charger".

Leap Attack and Shock Trooper by themselves can get you into the realms of enough damage that more starts to be pointless overkill. There comes a point when optimising for more damage becomes a waste of time, because everything's dead already. Chargers can get there with three feats.

[Greenish]

Sniper's Shot isn't that grand when both Hit and Run Tactics (the fighter ACF) and Dead Eye require the target to be within 30 ft. anyway.

Hank's bow is from a ridiculously esoteric source (seriously, name any one thing from the book aside from the bow), and not even top of the line for archery damage; that would be Splitting (not that CoR is all that common a book). Luckily, Force enhancement (for bypassing basically any DR) is from MIC.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Sniper's Shot isn't that grand when both Hit and Run Tactics (the fighter ACF) and Dead Eye require the target to be within 30 ft. anyway.

Hank's bow is from a ridiculously esoteric source (seriously, name any one thing from the book aside from the bow), and not even top of the line for archery damage; that would be Splitting (not that CoR is all that common a book). Luckily, Force enhancement (for bypassing basically any DR) is from MIC.

The list is hardly exhaustive. It's not an archery handbook, just a quick listing of stuff from memory. You also don't need 1000-1600 damage per round when even the Great Wyrm epic dragons barely have that much HP.
Let's face it, Splitting is overkill for most games and a real bitch at the table because of all the dice rolls too. The Energy Bow just unites several features you can also find seperately, it's just a very convenient package.

The point is that making an archer who does enough damage to compete in normal play (more than 1d8+3) is not only possible, there's several methods to do so. If you can't be bothered with looking through your books just build a Swift Hunter.
And it's no easier to shut down than a charger build is, which is a mundane problem, not an archery problem.

[Necroticplague]

Your one of those types who only likes playing god wizards dont you? Remind me to never play a campaign with you.

Incorrect. I f***ing hate playing spellcasters for several reasons, especially prepared ones. I learned the importance of every single level playing martials of various stripes (mostly grapplers).

However, even if that was true, it's a completely irrelevant ad-hominem attack that doesn't address my argument

[Deadline]

Ok you need to understand that i went for something similar but not identical, and for the love of pete avoid such derogatory wording. It's very unflattering. Seriously thought I thought I was being somewhat mechanical, then again math was always my worst subject in school.

What derogatory wording?

Magical teenager is a common trope, usually found in anime. It's ... not derogatory. Heck, there have been several threads on how to make the RWBY team. :smallsmile:

As Sir Chuckles pointed out, you started this thread with a presupposed idea that your theme somehow makes your chosen fighting style a mechanically superior choice to others. The problem with that argument is that it isn't true. Unfortunately, Einhanding is a mechanically inferior style. That doesn't mean you are a bad person or have bad ideas, there's no personal sentiment in there at all. Tons of people here make builds with suboptimal mechanical choices in order to fit a theme or character idea. It's fun. But if you want a mechanical discussion, be prepared to back up your claims with something other than personal preference or character theme, or make it very clear in the OP that you are sticking to said theme, and would like advice on how to best implement it. Sure, you'll still get recommendations that don't conform to your parameters, but you'll get tons of useful advice as well.

[Masakan]

As Sir Chuckles pointed out, you started this thread with a presupposed idea that your theme somehow makes your chosen fighting style a mechanically superior choice to others.

Wait what? WHAT? Where in the ever loving chasm of Angelina Jolie's Keyhole did you get that idea?
Seriously where did I even remotely hint that?

[Deadline]

Wait what? WHAT? Where in the ever loving chasm of Angelina Jolie's Keyhole did you get that idea?
Seriously where did I even remotely hint that?

All right, perhaps I'm mistaken (it happens a lot :smalltongue:). It certainly appears that you believe Einhanding is a good style. If that's the case, why is it that you think Einhanding isn't the worst melee style available (mechanically)?

Edit - I'm getting it from you not ranking Einhanding on the bottom of your lists (and the claims you've made that's it's good or effective), and your expressed opinions on the efficacy of TWF.

[Masakan]

All right, perhaps I'm mistaken (it happens a lot :smalltongue:). It certainly appears that you believe Einhanding is a good style. If that's the case, why is it that you think Einhanding isn't the worst melee style available (mechanically)?

Because most of the arguments I see surrounding it, pretty much amount to "Anything it can do two handed fighting can do better" I don't think it's the best far from it, in fact if your super by the book about it it's pretty lackluster. Despite that I would still rather take einhandling over 2 weapon fighting any day of the week. Besides, if your willing to let people use pathfinder material, you can still get things like Piranha strike and Vital strike, in fact I would argue that power attack is overpowered and should work similarly to piranha strike.

But as bad as people say einhandling is for it's lack of support, I would argue that 2 weapon fighting is worse just for how unwieldy it is, how much it sucks up feats and was pretty much designed with fighters in mind. You pretty much HAVE to be dedicated to being a Two Weapon fighter just to get it to function. That means no spare feats, little gishing if any, and unless you have extra movement, you are gonna be on the frontlines standing like a rock soaking up all the damage.

Basically I consider it the worst because it hinders mobility to a great degree, everything else is able to re-position themselves while still outputting decent damage, while still having enough room for other things. I guess what i'm trying to say is I feel TWF is worse not because of lack of damage, but because of how little leg room going into it allows. Everything else i can think outside the box and make something creative and interesting, this thing i gotta jump through multiple hoops just to get it to work the way i want it to.

So what einhandling lacks in damage and support(Which can easily be made up for if your willing to let players use pathfinder feats) It makes up for in mobility and flexibility. Like i said it's not bad, it's not good. It's middle of the road.(Of course if your dm wont let you use anything feats from pathfinder then you might be in trouble.)

[Greenish]

Every fighting style is pretty hobbled if they can't get full attacks off. That's why pounce and/or other free movement feature so centrally in most melee builds (archery obviously has easier time). I don't see how one-handing has more mobility than TWF. Both can move and attack once, with one-handed weapon. If they don't have to move, though, TWF gets to attack more.

TWF takes a punishing amount of investment to get going, true, but at least it has an answer to why it's not holding its weapon two-handed (it either already is, or it can't).

[Necroticplague]

Because most of the arguments I see surrounding it, pretty much amount to "Anything it can do two handed fighting can do better" I don't think it's the best far from it, in fact if your super by the book about it it's pretty lackluster. Despite that I would still rather take einhandling over 2 weapon fighting any day of the week. Besides, if your willing to let people use pathfinder material, you can still get things like Piranha strike and Vital strike, in fact I would argue that power attack is overpowered and should work similarly to piranha strike. 1. Assuming a houserule beyond fixing the most broken of RAW (like drown-healing) is poor form when discussing mechanical things (and using PF in dnd is a houserule, just as much as using things from MnM in dnd is). 2. The fact you'd prefer to take einhanding over two-weapon fighting doesn't automatically make it better. That makes you like TWF less than einhanding. As Sir Chuckle said,

The problem in this thread is that you're asking a mechanical question and then backing it with non-mechanical evidence. And your preference for Einhanding over TWF isn't mechanical evidence of one's superiority. .


But as bad as people say einhandling is for it's lack of support, I would argue that 2 weapon fighting is worse just for how unwieldy it is, how much it sucks up feats and was pretty much designed with fighters in mind. You pretty much HAVE to be dedicated to being a Two Weapon fighter just to get it to function. That means no spare feats, little gishing if any, and unless you have extra movement, you are gonna be on the frontlines standing like a rock soaking up all the damage.
1. Please, explain what you mean by "unwieldy".
2. It doesn't "suck up feats". It takes one feat to get it working (TWF itself, bringing the penalties down to a managable -2, -2, instead of the horrific -4,-8). Everything else is gravy. If you want to go further, you can, but you get a good chunk of it's benefits just from that one feat. The fact that there are a lot of feats available for it is actually a good thing. It means if you want to invest more in it, you can. but there's no requirement for you to do so.


and unless you have extra movement, you are gonna be on the frontlines standing like a rock soaking up all the damage.
1. Extra movement, or other things that let you move+full attack are so easy to get access to this fact is almost a nonentity. If you're a primary martial, you dip a level of Lion Spirit Totem barbarian. If you're s spellcaster, you pick up a spell that moves you as a swift, or one that give you pounce. Anyone can dip cleric for Travel Devotion. Five foot steps exist (and can be upgraded to 10-foot steps with either a Sparring Dummy of the Master or a suffeciently high Tumble check). There's a feat (dual strike) and several Tiger heart maneuvers that let you attack with both weapons as a standard action
2. Nothing forces you to make a full-attack just because you have a weapon in both hands. Your free to be just as mobile as an einhander, and maybe going for a bigger full-attack if you see the chance present itself.


Basically I consider it the worst because it hinders mobility to a great degree, everything else is able to re-position themselves while still outputting decent damage, while still having enough room for other things. I guess what i'm trying to say is I feel TWF is worse not because of lack of damage, but because of how little leg room going into it allows. Everything else i can think outside the box and make something creative and interesting, this thing i gotta jump through multiple hoops just to get it to work the way i want it to.And this is an objecticely false reason. it leaves plenty of leg room. heck, even if you've made the choice of "I'm gonna TWF", you're still left with a very wide variety of "what do I TWF with" (greatsword+armor spikes? oversized TWF+monkey grip? Shield+broadblade shortsword?), and "how am I gonna TWF" (AoO based controller? Defensive counterattacker? Whirling Frenzy pouncer? Shadowpounce blender? Travel Devotion Sneak Attacker? Throwing Weapons living shotgun?). The fact you can't think of how to make it interesting is entirely on you, not the system. Plenty of variety in TWF for you explore.


So what einhandling lacks in damage and support(Which can easily be made up for if your willing to let players use pathfinder feats) It makes up for in mobility and flexibility. Like i said it's not bad, it's not good. It's middle of the road.(Of course if your dm wont let you use anything feats from pathfinder then you might be in trouble.)
It's mobility and flexibility are both not unique features. TWFing is pretty much inherintly more flexible because you can make more choices with it that are all powerful and actually take advantage of its unique features (some examples of which are mentioned above). It's more defensive because you can use a weapon as a stat stick for defensive properties (+5 defending parrying smoking broadblade shortsword in the offhand, for example, which has the additional bonus of being able to use it to switch to more offense if wanted or needed). There's not an area Einhander has an advantage over TWF in.

[Deophaun]

It's more defensive because you can use a weapon as a stat stick for defensive properties (+5 defending parrying smoking gauntlet)

Fixed that for you. Every fighting style can have a defensive weapon (or two... nothing says you can't wear two).

[Masakan]

1. Assuming a houserule beyond fixing the most broken of RAW (like drown-healing) is poor form when discussing mechanical things (and using PF in dnd is a houserule, just as much as using things from MnM in dnd is). 2. The fact you'd prefer to take einhanding over two-weapon fighting doesn't automatically make it better. That makes you like TWF less than einhanding. As Sir Chuckle said,
And your preference for Einhanding over TWF isn't mechanical evidence of one's superiority. .


1. Please, explain what you mean by "unwieldy".
2. It doesn't "suck up feats". It takes one feat to get it working (TWF itself, bringing the penalties down to a managable -2, -2, instead of the horrific -4,-8). Everything else is gravy. If you want to go further, you can, but you get a good chunk of it's benefits just from that one feat. The fact that there are a lot of feats available for it is actually a good thing. It means if you want to invest more in it, you can. but there's no requirement for you to do so.


1. Extra movement, or other things that let you move+full attack are so easy to get access to this fact is almost a nonentity. If you're a primary martial, you dip a level of Lion Spirit Totem barbarian. If you're s spellcaster, you pick up a spell that moves you as a swift, or one that give you pounce. Anyone can dip cleric for Travel Devotion. Five foot steps exist (and can be upgraded to 10-foot steps with either a Sparring Dummy of the Master or a suffeciently high Tumble check). There's a feat (dual strike) and several Tiger heart maneuvers that let you attack with both weapons as a standard action
2. Nothing forces you to make a full-attack just because you have a weapon in both hands. Your free to be just as mobile as an einhander, and maybe going for a bigger full-attack if you see the chance present itself.

And this is an objecticely false reason. it leaves plenty of leg room. heck, even if you've made the choice of "I'm gonna TWF", you're still left with a very wide variety of "what do I TWF with" (greatsword+armor spikes? oversized TWF+monkey grip? Shield+broadblade shortsword?), and "how am I gonna TWF" (AoO based controller? Defensive counterattacker? Whirling Frenzy pouncer? Shadowpounce blender? Travel Devotion Sneak Attacker? Throwing Weapons living shotgun?). The fact you can't think of how to make it interesting is entirely on you, not the system. Plenty of variety in TWF for you explore.


It's mobility and flexibility are both not unique features. TWFing is pretty much inherintly more flexible because you can make more choices with it that are all powerful and actually take advantage of its unique features (some examples of which are mentioned above). It's more defensive because you can use a weapon as a stat stick for defensive properties (+5 defending parrying smoking broadblade shortsword in the offhand, for example, which has the additional bonus of being able to use it to switch to more offense if wanted or needed). There's not an area Einhander has an advantage over TWF in.

Ok fine I get it. I'm stupid and have no idea what I'm talking about can we just move on?

[squiggit]

Basically I consider it the worst because it hinders mobility to a great degree
[...]
So what einhandling lacks in damage[...]it makes up for in mobility and flexibility.

Can someone explain this to me? It seems to me like Einhander has the same "your damage goes to **** if you can't full attack" problem that basically every other combat style has.

[Vhaidara]

Ok fine I get it. I'm stupid and have no idea what I'm talking about can we just move on?

You're the one who keeps making the same point even when we have shown you that you are factually wrong on multiple levels. Stop bringing it up and we'll stop showing you evidence that you're wrong.

[Masakan]

You're the one who keeps making the same point even when we have shown you that you are factually wrong on multiple levels. Stop bringing it up and we'll stop showing you evidence that you're wrong.

So Stop trying to sound like you're intelligent and we'll stop showing you how incompetent you are is that it?

Honestly, this has been the entire problem I've had long before I even started posting...and to be perfectly frank. I feel like a sorcerer...in a forum full of wizards. I feel out of place, I feel misunderstood and no one really cares to do so, only wanting to be "right"

And I can almost garentee you someone is gonna accuse me of causing drama and put another infraction on my account, just from this statement.

[Vhaidara]

How about "when you say something, and people explain why you are wrong, and you have no evidence that you are right to disprove them, stop saying the same wrong information"

You may have sounded intelligent the first time. But when you've had the evidence shown to you and you ignore it, multiple times, do you still think you sound intelligent? Stubbornness isn't going to make you right here, its just going to make you angry and make us tired of hearing you repeat yourself.

[Masakan]

How about "when you say something, and people explain why you are wrong, and you have no evidence that you are right to disprove them, stop saying the same wrong information"

You may have sounded intelligent the first time. But when you've had the evidence shown to you and you ignore it, multiple times, do you still think you sound intelligent? Stubbornness isn't going to make you right here, its just going to make you angry and make us tired of hearing you repeat yourself.

....your right it's becoming more and more obvious that I'm not welcome here. And rather than being driven out I Should just leave while im still more of an unknown, if you would be so kind as to, uh direct me to a forum board that uh doesn't care so much about discussing the hundreds of different ways to break the game and how to abuse it profusely that would be great.

[Necroticplague]

Additionally, making additional threads on more or less the same topic when you've been proven wrong to try and re-start the argument on your terms (as you did twice, by making the "would you take TWF if you couldn't get pounce or free movement" and this one after you're shown wrong in the "worst fighting style" thread) is both ineffective (as people tend to have a common group of interests and look at most threads relevant, so the dudes who proved you wrong in the last one will probably end up doing it again in the next), and generally bad forum etiquette.

[Vhaidara]

Here you go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?59-D-amp-D-3e-3-5e-d20)

They're pretty reasonable, so long as you leave you goalposts where you set them, are honest about your intent, and don't make baseless, wide sweeping comments. I've actually used their help to make very effective characters using my favorite combat style, martial, non-gish einhander.

[Masakan]

Here you go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?59-D-amp-D-3e-3-5e-d20)

They're pretty reasonable, so long as you leave you goalposts where you set them, are honest about your intent, and don't make baseless, wide sweeping comments. I've actually used their help to make very effective characters using my favorite combat style, martial, non-gish einhander.

...screw you

[Vhaidara]

What? Three of my favorite and most effective characters were einhander. And the Playground helped me build them. Because I was willing to listen when people gave me advice.

[Masakan]

What? Three of my favorite and most effective characters were einhander. And the Playground helped me build them. Because I was willing to listen when people gave me advice.

1. That pompous superiority of yours isn't gonna make people listen to you.
2. Second all I'm trying to do is open up new possibilities, I could just as easily go barbarian, Prestige into frenzied Berserker. Kill everyone in front of me including my teammates and laugh at them as I listen to them get angry that my PC killed them. Or Just go god wizard and not give a flying turd.
Or even take leadership and completely break the game. I KNOW all this. But as I said before the tome of battle is the only reason I've even picked up DnD, without it all this game amounts to(Combat wise) is a bunch of glorified math homework.
It's frustrating knowing that i could very easily make a walking ball of stats that could not only make my fellow players hate me, but make me the target of my DM who i may or may not end up beating and forcing him to rage quit the campaign, but when i try to present the notion that what has been set down isn't absolute suddenly i get every pseudo intellectual, lining up to shove their lawful neutral mindset, 3 inches up my arse.

Ok? I did my research, I know how to make a character that could probably ruin campaigns, I shouldn't be berated when all im doing is suggesting going at things from a different angle

[Necroticplague]

There's a good line between suggesting going at things from a different angle ("Einhander could be made to work, even though it is a pretty weak style, and it suites a fair deal of characters" is a useful statement, and you'll hear many similar to it when people ask for character advice here), and making objectively wrong statements, then sticking to them because of your personal opinions ("Einhander is more flexible and versatile than TWF" is wrong and saying it doesn't help anyone.)


1. That pompous superiority of yours isn't gonna make people listen to you.
And your stubbornness and victim complex isn't doing you any favors.

[Vhaidara]

We aren't objecting to you wanting to use einhander. We are objecting to your statement that it is somehow mechanically superior in any way, shape or form to other, more effective combat styles.

All of my characters could be stronger if they were two handing. Hell, one of them is strength based, has power attack, and still one hands. Because that's how she was trained. I make no pretenses that my characters are mechanically superior to the non-einhander option.
Also, you will almost never see any of the three things you listed recommended here, for the reasons you mentioned.
FB is a walking potential tpk, God wizard is minimal fun to play with (batman is the wiz you'll see recommended, though I feel the names should be reversed), and leadership is just more paperwork than most people want to put up with.

I'm all for building to a power level. Hell, I'm usually the one restricting myself. I refuse to play vancian casters. They're badly designed, their mechanics are idiotic, heir fluff is worse, and they're overpowered to boot.

[Masakan]

We aren't objecting to you wanting to use einhander. We are objecting to your statement that it is somehow mechanically superior in any way, shape or form to other, more effective combat styles.

All of my characters could be stronger if they were two handing. Hell, one of them is strength based, has power attack, and still one hands. Because that's how she was trained. I make no pretenses that my characters are mechanically superior to the non-einhander option.
Also, you will almost never see any of the three things you listed recommended here, for the reasons you mentioned.
FB is a walking potential tpk, God wizard is minimal fun to play with (batman is the wiz you'll see recommended, though I feel the names should be reversed), and leadership is just more paperwork than most people want to put up with.

I'm all for building to a power level. Hell, I'm usually the one restricting myself. I refuse to play vancian casters. They're badly designed, their mechanics are idiotic, heir fluff is worse, and they're overpowered to boot.

But that's just it. You see issues where I don't and vice versa. You have a free hand, damage output isn't high, has low amount of feats directly associated with it. I don't see any of those an an issue.
Needing to stand still to do max damage, being at best questionably compatible with gish builds, horribly feat heavy and lack of innate mobility, You don't see as issues where as I do.
Maybe it's just difference of opinion at this point?

[Necroticplague]

But that's just it. You see issues where I don't and vice versa. You have a free hand, damage output isn't high, has low amount of feats directly associated with it. I don't see any of those an an issue.
Needing to stand still to do max damage, being at best questionably compatible with gish builds, horribly feat heavy and lack of innate mobility, You don't see as issues where as I do.
Maybe it's just difference of opinion at this point?
Dude, you can get a free hand with literally every fighting style. That's not a unique perk of einhander.
S+B: Animated shields, shield gauntlets, bucklers.
THF: Take one hand off a weapon when you aren't attacking with it.
Ranged combat: see above for projectile, don't draw for thrown weapons.
TWF: Double weapons (type of two hander, see above), braid blades, gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, the 5 or so variety of hidden blades, axe-bucklers (also work with S+B), armor spikes, armor razors.
Heck, you can combine several of the above, and still have a free hand available for whatever. If I missed any, feel free to tell me.

As for compatibility with gish builds: Somatic Weaponry feat, any of the above to have a free hand while TWF, using spells that don't have somatic components so that what you have in hand doesn't matter. It's not remotely questionable, these work.

Feat heaviness and mobility, I've already refuted before, and feel no need to repeat myself on.

[Masakan]

Dude, you can get a free hand with literally every fighting style. That's not a unique perk of einhander.
S+B: Animated shields, shield gauntlets, bucklers.
THF: Take one hand off a weapon when you aren't attacking with it.
Ranged combat: see above for projectile, don't draw for thrown weapons.
TWF: Double weapons (type of two hander, see above), braid blades, gauntlets, spiked gauntlets, the 5 or so variety of hidden blades, axe-bucklers (also work with S+B), armor spikes, armor razors.
Heck, you can combine several of the above, and still have a free hand available for whatever. If I missed any, feel free to tell me.

As for compatibility with gish builds: Somatic Weaponry feat, any of the above to have a free hand while TWF, using spells that don't have somatic components so that what you have in hand doesn't matter. It's not remotely questionable, these work.

Feat heaviness and mobility, I've already refuted before, and feel no need to repeat myself on.

Yes yes I get it Einhandling is absolute garbage and anything and everything should be considered before touching this worthless piece of ****. There is no reason for you to rub salt on the wound when I've already admitted defeat

[Deadline]

But that's just it. You see issues where I don't and vice versa. You have a free hand, damage output isn't high, has low amount of feats directly associated with it. I don't see any of those an an issue.
Needing to stand still to do max damage, being at best questionably compatible with gish builds, horribly feat heavy and lack of innate mobility, You don't see as issues where as I do.
Maybe it's just difference of opinion at this point?

It's possible, but the way you've framed your posts and opinions makes them come off as though you deem them to be fact, despite a lack of evidence. That's why you keep getting people correcting you. If you framed these posts more as the opinions that they seem to be, you'd run into less of that. Alternatively, if you had some numbers to back up your claims, that would also be beneficial. Yes, I know, you hate math. :smalltongue:

For example, an Einhander (and every other fighting style*) has to remain still in order to do max damage. There are methods to try and up the minimum damage you can do with a single attack, but the fact still remains that if you've got a BAB of +6 or more (or have multiple natural attacks, or are two-weapon fighting, or flurrying), your max damage is going to be gotten by full attacking. It's why Pounce is such a highly sought after ability (because now you can move and keep doing your max damage).

Now, you may like the Einhander style, but it's very clearly not more advantageous than any other style at ... well, anything really. You've mentioned that with the addition of a few things from Pathfinder, it gets better. If you wanted to get a discussion going on that, I'd recommend adding the Pathfinder tag to your title, that way you'll draw the Pathfinder experts in to contribute.

*I think Greater Manyshot is the sole exception to this.

[Masakan]

It's possible, but the way you've framed your posts and opinions makes them come off as though you deem them to be fact, despite a lack of evidence. That's why you keep getting people correcting you. If you framed these posts more as the opinions that they seem to be, you'd run into less of that. Alternatively, if you had some numbers to back up your claims, that would also be beneficial. Yes, I know, you hate math. :smalltongue:

For example, an Einhander (and every other fighting style*) has to remain still in order to do max damage. There are methods to try and up the minimum damage you can do with a single attack, but the fact still remains that if you've got a BAB of +6 or more, your max damage is going to be gotten by full attacking. It's why Pounce is such a highly sought after ability (because now you can move and keep doing your max damage).

Now, you may like the Einhander style, but it's very clearly not more advantageous than any other style at ... well, anything really. You've mentioned that with the addition of a few things from Pathfinder, it gets better. If you wanted to get a discussion going on that, I'd recommend adding the Pathfinder tag to your title, that way you'll draw the Pathfinder experts in to contribute.

*I think Greater Manyshot is the sole exception to this.

Forget it, It wouldn't make a difference. I'm terrible with finding the right words anyway. Honestly The main reason i'm trying to convince myself that einhandling is worth the trouble is because, if your weapon finessing all you have for decent weapons are the elven courtblade and the sun sword. (One needs a feat) and both can just be completely shot down by the DM all together because he doesn't like or have the source book(And don't even suggest spiked chain.) All i can really do is hope the DM is flexible enough to let me have the sun sword, otherwise I'm just stuck with a lackluster build that's would be considered underwhelming and arguably useless by most power gamers.

[Deadline]

Forget it, It wouldn't make a difference. I'm terrible with finding the right words anyway. Honestly The main reason i'm trying to convince myself that einhandling is worth the trouble is because, if your weapon finessing all you have for decent weapons are the elven courtblade and the sun sword. (One needs a feat) and both can just be completely shot down by the DM all together because he doesn't like or have the source book(And don't even suggest spiked chain.) All i can really do is hope the DM is flexible enough to let me have the sun sword, otherwise I'm just stuck with a lackluster that's considered underwhelming and arguably useless by most power gamers.

Well, if you look at the many other threads around here where folks ask for build advice, one of the first questions that gets asked is, "What Optimization level is your group?"

If it's not that high, you can do just fine as a Gish with a rapier. Heck, you mentioned that all of your damage was basically coming from spells anyway, so I'm sure your build will be fine, unless you are playing in a Tippyverse or something. You don't always have to do the most optimized thing in order to have fun, after all. :smallsmile:

I would highly recommend looking into one of the numerous RWBY character build threads here though, you may be able to tinker with the Weiss build to suit your needs. Then again, maybe you are happy with your build and don't want to tinker with it. That's cool too. :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

Don't elves treat the Court Blade as martial? Wouldn't need a feat there.

Well, they do in PF for the Curve Blade which is much the same thing anyway...

[Necroticplague]

Yes yes I get it Einhandling is absolute garbage and anything and everything should be considered before touching this worthless piece of ****. There is no reason for you to rub salt on the wound when I've already admitted defeat
First: Don't f***ing puts words in my mouth. I never said such a thing.

Second: Except you haven't. You've fallen back to "well, it ultimately depends on whether you consider these things to be good or bad", which A: wrong, because an objective answer can be found. and B: wrong, because the "these things" are incorrect (in your case, you mention a free hand as if that's unique to einhander, which isn't, you say TWF in innately less mobile, which isn't true, and you say TWF sucks up a lot of feats, which isn't necessarily true).

I'm not salting any wound, I'm correcting some errors.

[Masakan]

Well, if you look at the many other threads around here where folks ask for build advice, one of the first questions that gets asked is, "What Optimization level is your group?"

If it's not that high, you can do just fine as a Gish with a rapier. Heck, you mentioned that all of your damage was basically coming from spells anyway, so I'm sure your build will be fine, unless you are playing in a Tippyverse or something. You don't always have to do the most optimized thing in order to have fun, after all. :smallsmile:

I would highly recommend looking into one of the numerous RWBY character build threads here though, you may be able to tinker with the Weiss build to suit your needs. Then again, maybe you are happy with your build and don't want to tinker with it. That's cool too. :smallsmile:
Well the majority of it later on yeah, I try to avoid uberly high optimization games and try to find games that are more Role play and character based while still offering an substantial challenge. I'm primarily a caster but i'm not helpless in a melee encounter because eventually...sooner or later... your DM is gonna throw a Anti Magic field at your ass, and you don't wanna feel like a fish out of water when that happens.


First: Don't f***ing puts words in my mouth. I never said such a thing.

Second: Except you haven't. You've fallen back to "well, it ultimately depends on whether you consider these things to be good or bad", which A: wrong, because an objective answer can be found. and B: wrong, because the "these things" are incorrect (in your case, you mention a free hand as if that's unique to einhander, which isn't, you say TWF in innately less mobile, which isn't true, and you say TWF sucks up a lot of feats, which isn't necessarily true).

I'm not salting any wound, I'm correcting some errors.

You can't solve everything with pure logic dude.

[Necroticplague]

You can't solve everything with pure logic dude.

You can if you have all the information. "What should I take for this character" and "What's good?" are different questions because different information is available/assumable. The former requires me knowing a lot more things (your preferences, general power level, DM leniency, weapon distribution, ability to buy things in shops, average power level compared to NPCs, any self-imposed limitation on the character, and ideally the character's backstory), the latter does not.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Then simply answer me this, how many 2 handed weapons are finessible. As far as I can tell there are only 3 right? Elven Courtblade, Sunsword and Spiked chain right?

That sounds about right but remember you can also use both hands with a finessable one-handed weapon unless the weapon expressly forbids it as does a rapier. I really don't see what that has to do with anything though. Using a finesse weapon reduces the damage you deal since most finesse builds don't push str past 13. This also causes issues for weapon based special maneuvers (trip, bull rush, etc) since they frequently call for str checks.

TWF gains as much accuracy from using dex over str as any style, more so even since it requires high dex anyway (barring at least a dip in ranger).


So the common concencenses is dex builds suck.

They don't suck, they're just generally less powerful than str based melee builds. On a gish, however, generally light armor and damage boosts from spells make putting dex over str a decent idea since it helps to consolidate offense and defense in the same stat. It's not necessary, of course, but if you've got a spare feat then weapon finesse is hardly a bad choice.

Also, archery; It takes a bit of system mastery to make it truly devastating but it has inherent tactical advantages over melee and is only shutdown hard by spellcasters and disastrous weather.



Well the majority of it later on yeah, I try to avoid uberly high optimization games and try to find games that are more Role play and character based while still offering an substantial challenge. I'm primarily a caster but i'm not helpless in a melee encounter because eventually...sooner or later... your DM is gonna throw a Anti Magic field at your ass, and you don't wanna feel like a fish out of water when that happens.

The idea that roleplay and character building are mutually exclusive is a logical fallacy that D&D forum goers have coined the stormwind fallacy. They are separate skill sets that have precious little interaction.

That said, the level of optimization you're building to doesn't change objective, provable facts. Every character has at leat two hands, if one of them isn't regularly doing something then potential is being wasted unless other selected options demand that hand be left free and empty. It really is that simple.


You can't solve everything with pure logic dude.

Yes, you can. You may not always like the answers that pure logic yields but outside of unanswerable philosophic questions it will always yield some viable answer.

It's even leaned on quite heavily in philosophical discussions though their ephemeral nature makes it impossible for pure logic to come the same conclusion reliably.

[Psyren]

It's more accurate to say that pure logic doesn't always yield the best answer. For this topic, "best weapon" can include qualitative metrics like "fun" that logic cannot fully address. (Though certainly logic can assist you with getting to the heart of what you consider to be fun.)

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's more accurate to say that pure logic doesn't always yield the best answer. For this topic, "best weapon" can include qualitative metrics like "fun" that logic cannot fully address. (Though certainly logic can assist you with getting to the heart of what you consider to be fun.)

What is "fun?" sounds like a philosophical question to me.

[Necroticplague]

It's more accurate to say that pure logic doesn't always yield the best answer. For this topic, "best weapon" can include qualitative metrics like "fun" that logic cannot fully address. (Though certainly logic can assist you with getting to the heart of what you consider to be fun.)

The only reason logic couldn't address "fun" or "best" in this context is due to a lack of information. In this case, that information is "the definition of 'fun' and 'best' as to how they pertain to this situation" Given those, logic would be able to produce the best answer

[Psyren]

The only reason logic couldn't address "fun" or "best" in this context is due to a lack of information. In this case, that information is "the definition of 'fun' and 'best' as to how they pertain to this situation" Given those, logic would be able to produce the best answer

This assumes there is a definition of the concept of fun that can be quantified at all, and therefore arrive at a "best." As with all logic problems, starting from a faulty premise means that even the best logic won't necessarily yield a correct answer.


What is "fun?" sounds like a philosophical question to me.

Or a qualitative one - which I mentioned.

[Deophaun]

There is one more feat that is of great value to the einhander but useless for THF and S&B: Snowflake Wardance. It is useful to TWF, but I think that combat style costs more than it's worth. It might be useful for unarmed and natural attack combat depending on if you interpret claws/Versatile Strike-augmented unarmed strikes to be wielded in one hand (I've yet to meet a DM who hasn't, but YMMV). For that reason I think your standard Bardblade/Bardsader is highly likely to be an einhander.

[squiggit]

1. That pompous superiority of yours isn't gonna make people listen to you.

Basically any time someone in this thread has disagreed with you you've called them a power gamer who doesn't know how to play the game properly. Who's the one who has the complex?

You still haven't told me why einhander is more mobile than other combat styles. Seriously. I'm still trying to figure that out and I asked that in good faith.

[TheCrowing1432]

We've been over this before.

Using math/feats required and ease of use, we can map out the most optimal fighting style, which is magic, followed by two handed.


If we're going for opinions, heres mine.


1. Throwing - Call me a Forgotten Realms fanboy, but man, I loved Jarlaxles endless stream of daggers. Throwing weapons I always thought as being really cool, and they match up perfectly with the sneaky rogue type characters I like to play, tossing a dagger that you had hidden in your sleeve into someones throat just has this sense of thrill for me more so then any other character. Add in the bloodstorm blade PRC for even more throwing fun.

If you want to get stupid, theres the always cheesy Hulking Hurler who tosses around boulders for yes damage.


2. Unarmed Strikes/Natural Weapons.

Yes I am aware they are two different types of fighting, they have different feats and different rules, but they both use the same idea. Using your body as a weapon.

In a world where wizards rewrite reality, dragons fly through the air burning towns, and knights in armor slash their way through dozens of enemys, the idea of punching someone in the face is just satisfying. Or clawing them if using natural weapons.

Martial artists are a common trope in media, so of course the idea is awesome in dnd.


3. Sword and Board.

I like how shields can be enchanted with both shield and weapon enhancements, and can get some cool modifiers such as spikes to them. Ironically the best way to use shields are as weapons with the feat "Agile Shield fighter" you can also use it offensively in other ways such as tripping.

Still fun.


4. Two Weapon Fighting.


Drizzt aside, using two weapons is....well its exciting. It makes you feel like a badass, even if the fighting style is riddled with problems.


5. Two Handed fighting.

The barbarian standby and the most optimal, and also, in my opinion one of the most boring. You power attack and charge. Pouncing, Raging and Charging has its merits, but you can only do so much of it before it becomes a one trick pony.


6.Archery.

I was never very interested in archery mostly due to Point Blank Shot being needed for every single archery feat ever and I hate feat tax with a burning passion. And Ranger being one of my least favorite classes.


7. Ein hander

The worst of the bunch. All it has is one feat of the same name. Other then for uniqueness, I cant see why you would ever use this style. Even if you are stripped of all your gear, if you pick up a weapon you should probably two hand it.

[Deophaun]

You still haven't told me why einhander is more mobile than other combat styles. Seriously. I'm still trying to figure that out and I asked that in good faith.

The only thing I can think of is encumbrance. I've done some dragonwrought gishes where I'm making everything out of darkwood and mithral just to keep weight down, and a two-handed weapon or a shield would bring me up to medium encumbrance (plus, with sub 10 Strength, I ain't Power Attacking any time soon). But, that's an edge case.

[Heliomance]

A note: There is one very strong reason for playing an Einhander: Bardic gishes. Not only does Snowflake Wardance, as mentioned, strongly encourage the style, the Slippers of Battledancing absolutely mandate it.

[Greenish]

The original claim was that einhander is more mobile than TWF, and the argument seems to go like this: TWF and einhander do the same amount of damage with a standard attack, but TWF does more damage with a full attack, therefore einhander gives up relatively less damage by not full attacking.

[Deophaun]

the Slippers of Battledancing absolutely mandate it.

Overrated. They require a move action to activate, not simply moving 10'. It's doable, but annoying.

[Necroticplague]

A note: There is one very strong reason for playing an Einhander: Bardic gishes. Not only does Snowflake Wardance, as mentioned, strongly encourage the style, the Slippers of Battledancing absolutely mandate it.

Snowflake Wardance only encourages you to use a slashing weapon in one hand. It has absolutely no restriction as to what your other hand is doing. Slippers of the Battledancer only require a light or one-handed weapon. Both work if you have something in your other hand.

[Kelb_Panthera]

In the same vein as TheCrowing, above;

1. Sword and board with heavy armor; I've always liked the knight in shining armor trope, even if that shine is of an ebony hue.

2. TWF; whirling dervish of slashing, pokey death is hella awesome visuals for the mind's eye.

3 einhander; for the "I can beat you with one hand," vibe, though I tend to reserve this one for more militant campaigns with mostly humanoid enemies.

4 unarmed; kung fu fighting for fun and profit. Great for when I want to flex some more esoteric optimizing muscles. Some of the stuff you can do with a monk dip and a necklace of natural attacks is both unique and hilarious.

5. Two hander; boring but effective. Mostly reserved for berserkers or otherwise less sophisticated warriors. Sometimes sneaks into S&B or einhander setups for an emergency damage boost.

6 Natural weapons; with the exception of the occasional totemist or transformational build, I rarely have natural weapons on my characters. Doesn't really do it for me on a more martially-minded character, most of the time.



Those are my preferences for a martial character.

Edit:

Forgot ranged options.

Archery is cool but my favorite ranged weapon is the atlatl. Enhancable both as a thrown and projectile weapon, yes please.

[Psyren]

Unarmed has other benefits too, like Style Feats in Pathfinder, and Style Strikes if we move to Unchained.

Even some of the styles that can be used with weapons still require IUS (sadly.)

[Deophaun]

Both work if you have something in your other hand.

Not if that something is a shield (Snowflake Wardance, at least). Plus, Bardsaders/Bardblades pretty much always have a feat choice that is more advantageous than TWF; they're feat hungry even if they aren't feat starved. From a pure optimization standpoint, it does, as Heliomance stated "strongly encourage" the einhander style.

My martial preferences:

1) Natural attacks. Web-enhanced kobolds, shifters, druids, totemists, anything with alter self or polymorph. Nothing says "nice to meet you" like two claws, a rake, a bite, a gore, a tail slap, and maybe a wing buffet. Pray you don't meet me when I've taken Aberration Wild Shape. Then, things get intimate.

2) THF. Because Knockback is hilarious.

3) Einhander. Low opportunity cost means a lot of my gishes fall to this. Plus, it plays nice with natural attacks.

4) Unarmed. It's just, sometimes I dip into Battledancer or Monk... Also plays nice with natural attacks.

5) Archery. Not every dragon consents to fighting on my level. I generally dislike bow-focused rangers and swift hunters. But, this is a nice way to play an Artificer without getting ridiculous.

6) Sword and board. I'll play a Paladin if that's the only thing available. Generally though, if I want to play a tank, see #4.

7) TWF. Because I forgot I could have just done #1, easier.

8) Throwing. Not because I don't like it. I've just never done it.

[TheCrowing1432]

Heh, Necklace of Natural Attacks with the Throwing Enchantment.


You throw your fists!

[Vhaidara]

Honestly, they're all pretty even for me.
Einhander lets me be the Dread Pirate Roberts/Inigo Montoya.
Archery is a standby for my namesake character
TWF is his backup combat style
Unarmed is just something I always found really cool
Throwing is awesome to visualize, especially if you have resupplying ammo
Sword and Board is classic for a reason, and I love being the support and protector
Two Handed is awesome for the smashy philosopher. One of my favorites is a Barbarian with an Earthbreaker who will discuss philosophy and psychology while beating his enemies to a bloody pulp.

Honestly, I wish that style shifting was more viable. Most fantasy warriors I've seen aren't locked into one. They can fight, at full effectiveness,while using both hands on their sword, while using it with a shield, while holding something else (say, a local damsel in distress) with the other hand, and some of them can, in emergencies, grab a second bloody freaking sword to reign down righteous judgment. Have fun EVER building a DnD character below level 15 with enough feats to manage that.

Oh, and while you're at it, he's a Crusader. So no class bonus feats.

[Sir Chuckles]

Nobody ever mentions improvised weapons, and that makes me sad.

While the only support I've ever found for it in 3.5 is one feat and an ability or two from a two prestige classes, the feat and one of the prestige classes are from Dragon, and the PRC is for Monks. Even with Dragon, it's still very underwhelming.

However, in Pathfinder, there a decent amount of additional support in both feats and classes. A Cad Fighter can pull off some silly stuff through a combination of Deadly Surprise, Quick Dirty Trick, and Dirty Trick Master. This is because you can use Quick Dirty Trick to cause the Blinded condition, denying the affected person's Dex to AC for at least one full round. Not only does this mean SA dice for the party rogue, but it's also the requirement for Deadly Surprise. Combine with Dirty Trick Master to inflict some nasty conditions on enemies.

Nothing like making an enemy blind and dazed for at least 1d4 rounds. And then being able to freely reapply those effects while also throwing in some new ones for ghits and siggles, all while still doing damage.

Another interesting effect is that Deadly Surprise triggers on a successful attack with a weapon or unarmed strike. I believe that, unfortunately, means you can't use it with natural weapons, but tossing in two-weapon fighting against an enemy that is already severely hampered in the AC department can be a bit hilarious.

[Deophaun]

Honestly, I wish that style shifting was more viable. Most fantasy warriors I've seen aren't locked into one. They can fight, at full effectiveness,while using both hands on their sword, while using it with a shield, while holding something else (say, a local damsel in distress) with the other hand, and some of them can, in emergencies, grab a second bloody freaking sword to reign down righteous judgment. Have fun EVER building a DnD character below level 15 with enough feats to manage that.

Oh, and while you're at it, he's a Crusader. So no class bonus feats.
Be a thrikreen. Do it all at the same time!

[Vhaidara]

Be a thrikreen. Do it all at the same time!

Oh, forgot to mention he's human. Or possibly Aasimar, he's just that good.

For anyone who's read the Dresden Files, you know who I speak of. A Good Man

[Kantolin]

Honestly, I wish that style shifting was more viable. Most fantasy warriors I've seen aren't locked into one.

If I could 'like' posts, I would mash the button on this one for these two sentences alone, haha. I love the idea of the style shifter, and am sad that it's incompetent to do.

My big hope, however, is that my group is /extremely/ low op. Thus, things like 'the fighter takes improved trip' means he'll be able to use it with fair success on the majority of enemies we fight throughout the campaign. Maybe not the boss, if it's a dragon or beholder or ogre or something, but we most often fight 'human(oids) with class levels that are about as unoptimized as we are', which means I /can/ have my psychic warriors style shift without it being too ornery, using his powers to 'cover himself'.

Now sadly, even in our super low op games that may not work - if we run into too many monsters then our poor optimization can make even sub-CR encounters rough fights, which encourages more specialization, and thus sigh.

[Greenish]

Honestly, I wish that style shifting was more viable. Most fantasy warriors I've seen aren't locked into one. They can fight, at full effectiveness,while using both hands on their sword, while using it with a shield, while holding something else (say, a local damsel in distress) with the other hand, and some of them can, in emergencies, grab a second bloody freaking sword to reign down righteous judgment. Have fun EVER building a DnD character below level 15 with enough feats to manage that.Martial adepts are pretty close, given that the strikes can provide solid damage with most any weapon setup, unless you're running high op.


Now, styles in order of preference:
1. Big two-handers. especially swords, especially with heavy armour (which I wish wasn't so weak in the game). I just really dig the aesthetics, and if you need a shield, you're not wearing enough armour.
2. Sword & board. Conversely, if you have a shield, you can get by with less armour. Iconic look and solid real-world track record.
3. Shared 3rd place for TWF and einhander. Both have their own their own cool, and I'd be hard pressed to put one before the other.
Beyond that, bows, thrown, unarmed, natural weapons, improvised weapons, etc. each can be cool in its own way but I have no real preferences.

[Necroticplague]

Not if that something is a shield (Snowflake Wardance, at least). Plus, Bardsaders/Bardblades pretty much always have a feat choice that is more advantageous than TWF; they're feat hungry even if they aren't feat starved. From a pure optimization standpoint, it does, as Heliomance stated "strongly encourage" the einhander style.

Since the bonus it gives is per attack and works with light weapons, it seems like it more strongly encourages TWF.

[Vhaidara]

Oh, big disclaimer for me: I am hideously biased AGAINST heavy armor. I do not generally like the aesthetic of heavy armor, though FF XIV has been showing me some designs I really like (I've wholesale stolen the armor from both Nero and the Dragoon)

[Deophaun]

Since the bonus it gives is per attack and works with light weapons, it seems like it more strongly encourages TWF.
You're looking at this the wrong way.

Since Snowflake Wardance and Two-Weapon Fighting compete for the same resource, they discourage each other.

Consider a standard Bardblade. What are the optimal feats?

- Song of the White Raven.
- Snowflake Wardance.
- Dragonfire Inspiration (We'll assume human or silverbrow human, so this effectively sacrifices the bonus feat as a prereq).
- Weapon Finesse or Power Attack, depending on build. Maybe Extra Music, since you are burning your bard music for both IC and SW and you don't have that many Bard levels to fuel them.
- Words of Creation. A feat so good your DM may well just ban it.

We're at level 12 or 15 before we can consider TWF. More than half our career is gone. Worse, the campaign has likely ended already. We can get more earlier through Flaws, of course. But even without delving too deep we've got some strong competition from Martial Stance and Martial Study.

Now, let's look at the slippers of battledancing

The slippers cost 33,750 gp. The belt of battle you need for your extra move actions costs an additional 12,000. You could afford these by level 10 if you bought nothing else. Level 12 if we enforce the "nothing greater than 1/2 your WBL" guideline. Yet still, that's a ridiculous proportion of your wealth tied up for something you can only effectively use three times a day. Meanwhile, this is almost the cost of a +5 weapon. Until high levels, you are essentially giving up your offhand weapon in order to use these slippers.

This is why they encourage the einhander style. Could you sacrifice one of the feats to pick up TWF and still be effective? Sure. TWF does work with a Bardblade. I'm not disputing that. But there are better options available for this type of character if you stick with einhander.

[Greenish]

If you're going for Dragonfire Inspiration, though, that's even more reason to take TWF (and the main reason to take Weapon Finesse anyway is because you need the Dex for TWF feats).

Hell, with Dragonfire Inspiration, I'd probably drop Snowflake Wardance in favour of TWF (and Gloves of Balanced Hand).


Using Belt of Battle for move actions when Warblades get both Pounce and Swift action movement in class also seems stretching it. Anklets of Translocation are usually worth it, but you could probably do without.

[Deophaun]

Using Belt of Battle for move actions when Warblades get both Pounce and Swift action movement in class also seems stretching it. Anklets of Translocation are usually worth it, but you could probably do without.
A swift action is, by definition, not a move action. And Pouncing Charge is a full-round action. Also not a move. Why do you think slippers of battledancing would work with anything you've listed?

Also, Snowflake Wardance could easily give a Cha-focused character a +12 to hit. TWF gives you the equivalent of +6 and +4, respectively.

[Greenish]

A swift action is, by definition, not a move action. And Pouncing Charge is a full-round action. Also not a move. Why do you think slippers of battledancing would work with anything you've listed?Oh, that's what you'd do with the move action. Screw the slippers, then.


Also, Snowflake Wardance could easily give a Cha-focused character a +12 to hit. TWF gives you the equivalent of +6 and +4, respectively.Why would a bardblade be Cha-focused in the first place?

[Deophaun]

Why would a bardblade be Cha-focused in the first place?

Bard 4. Battledancer 1. Paladin of Freedom 2. Warblade 13. Charisma to EVERYTHING.

I even worked in two levels of Arcane Duelist once, and evened out the Bard and Warblade levels a bit. Wearing little more than a silk shirt, I wandered into the Abyss and walked out two months later. The only blood I wore was that of the demons that got in my way.


I was TWF with a pair of kukris... :smallredface:

[Soranar]

1 1 Two handed shield

yeah, you read that right

Basically use a heavy shield as a two handed weapon. The base damage is trivial in a power attack build and it just takes 1 feat (improved shield bash) to keep your AC bonus while you bash with it. Combine that with the trip feat (shield slam) and the daze feat (shield charge) and you have one nasty weapon. It's also opens up a lot of defensive options (shield block to negate ranged attacks, etc).

And since it's a bludgeoning weapon, mighty wallop is also your friend.

2 normal two handed

Due to the lack of feats necessary for a decent damage output , power attack and you're good to go. I find it hard to argue with that. Even without any feats, getting 1.5 times your strength to damage is nothing to scoff at

3 mounted lance

One of the few core options almost anyone can pull off, does enough damage to be significant without pounce (which is unusual in an of itself in core). Too feat intensive to be higher though, and terrain can have an effect until your mount becomes good enough to ignore it.

4 Hank's energy Footbow

Assuming you're a raptoran and this is a martial weapon, you get everything that makes a 2 handed build good in bow form (1.5 bonus STR to damage, power shots, force arrows). Not rated higher because only raptorans can use this without investing too much into it, but once you combo flyby attack and manyshot it becomes deadly. Again, only becomes useful until you can afford an energy bow.

5 Iaijutsu focus thrown daggers

Iaijutsu works against anything that can be flat footed, crit immune or not. It's also ranged or melee depending on the situation, giving you one of the few weapon style that can do both. It's also build intensive (need access to the skill and a ton of feats to work).

6 everything else

Every other weapon style requires a lot of feats for little return. Whether its natural weapons, two weapon fighting, multiweapon fighting or unarmed strikes. You have to build everything about your character to make it worth your while through precision damage (TWF or regular archery) or size manipulation (unarmed strike).

That doesn't mean these weapon styles are useless, they're just more difficult to use for what you get. Compare a sneak attack character vs a two handed power attack character. One requires several feats, class features and proper stats to do his thing. The other one requires a stick he can yield 2 handed, STR and 1 feat.

[Vhaidara]

Bard 4. Battledancer 1. Paladin of Freedom 2. Warblade 13. Charisma to EVERYTHING!

You mean that class that, in direct defiance of its own fluff, is Int based instead of charisma based, and therefore gives you Charisma to NOTHING?

This build has Cha to saves and unarmored AC, plus whatever you are bringing in via feats/items.

[Deophaun]

You mean that class that, in direct defiance of its own fluff, is Int based instead of charisma based, and therefore gives you Charisma to NOTHING?

I honestly didn't and don't care in the slightest. It gives me a) progression with IC and b) maneuverability with Tiger Claw. Throw in some White Raven and Stone Dragon, and there's a party. What I got from Int (which was at a +4) was nice, but hardly the point.


This build has Cha to saves and unarmored AC, plus whatever you are bringing in via feats/items.

It does? I had no idea. I just took Battledancer and Paladin of Freedom because they sounded nice and I liked the pictures. :smallbiggrin:

(Oh, and X2 to AC: Arcane Duelist's Apparent Defense is a different source than Battledancer's AC Bonus)

[Masakan]

Should I just...you know never start a serious thread again?


Oh, that's what you'd do with the move action. Screw the slippers, then.

Why would a bardblade be Cha-focused in the first place?
Why am i not surprised that when people find out that you cant move and full attack with slippers of battledancing, they just toss them aside like trash.

[Greenish]

Honestly, the things warblade adds Int to are nice (and I love warblade for giving me an excuse to pump Int on a beatstick), but ultimately fairly forgettable.

[EDIT]:
Should I just...you know never start a serious thread again?You should. We do like serious threads too. Just, maybe, try to be more specific in setting the discussion. You want to discourse on the strengths and benefits of einhander (as a style, not as the feat), and how to make the best of it, well, ask for that. You want to discuss the weapon choices for casting-focused gish, do that. We're more than happy to participate. Just remember when you're starting a thread to set the actual topic and limits of discussion.

[2.EDIT]:
Why am i not surprised that when people find out that you cant move and full attack with slippers of battledancing, they just toss them aside like trash.Because of the non-trivial cost of said item, and the non-trivial opportunity cost of a move action.

[Masakan]

Honestly, the things warblade adds Int to are nice (and I love warblade for giving me an excuse to pump Int on a beatstick), but ultimately fairly forgettable.

[EDIT]: You should. We do like serious threads too. Just, maybe, try to be more specific in setting the discussion. You want to discourse on the strengths and benefits of einhander (as a style, not as the feat), and how to make the best of it, well, ask for that. You want to discuss the weapon choices for casting-focused gish, do that. We're more than happy to participate. Just remember when you're starting a thread to set the actual topic and limits of discussion.

I thought I was fairly clear that what I was speaking on wasn't in absolutes, I was fully aware that I could be over looking something. But like I said, if your trying to go with weapon finesse and can't get the Sunsword, the Elven Courtblade or the spiked Chain...what's really left? And like many people just admitted, 2handed fighting is the easiest but it's also boring as balls, and I would like to have thoughts on weapon choices for caster focused gishes because it feels like the more i talk about the more it seems like there ARE no choices, or at the very least none that wouldn't get you laughed at by anyone who is more power gamer orientated.



[2.EDIT]: Because of the non-trivial cost of said item, and the non-trivial opportunity cost of a move action.
Did you dip into battle dancer? Spring attack and snap kick. Oh and make sure you get gauntlet of heartfelt blows NEXT!

[Greenish]

But like I said, if your trying to go with weapon finesse and can't get the Sunsword, the Elven Courtblade or the spiked Chain...what's really left?Spinning sword. Hell, rapier, technically, since it only says you can't two-hand it to benefit from 1.5 Str, but you could still get 2:1 PA.


And like many people just admitted, 2handed fighting is the easiest but it's also boring as ballsIt doesn't have to be, and the fact it has more support than most any other style (possibly barring TWF) means you can do great many things with it.


and I would like to have thoughts on weapon choices for caster focused gishes because it feels like the more i talk about the more it seems like there ARE no choices, or at the very least none that wouldn't get you laughed at by anyone who is more power gamer orientated.What is your actual build, what do we have to work with, and what do you want to achieve with it (both in terms of style, and in term of power level)?

If you ask for the best option, absent other relevant data, people are going to answer with the most powerful options. It's not even being power gamers, it's that we have nothing else to work on.


Also, I should point out that when people say "X is the strongest option", "X is stronger than Y", or even "X is the best option", they do not mean that you should do X, or that there's anything wrong with not doing X, they just mean that X is the mechanically most advantageous option. No one expects or wants you, or anyone else, to always take the most mechanically advantageous option. The more you can tell about your goal, your preferences, and your limitations, the better we can advice you. Starting a thread on what are the "best" combat options without defining what you're looking for will get you, well, this.

[Masakan]

Spinning sword. Hell, rapier, technically, since it only says you can't two-hand it to benefit from 1.5 Str, but you could still get 2:1 PA.

It doesn't have to be, and the fact it has more support than most any other style (possibly barring TWF) means you can do great many things with it.

What is your actual build, what do we have to work with, and what do you want to achieve with it (both in terms of style, and in term of power level)?

If you ask for the best option, absent other relevant data, people are going to answer with the most powerful options. It's not even being power gamers, it's that we have nothing else to work on.


Also, I should point out that when people say "X is the strongest option", "X is stronger than Y", or even "X is the best option", they do not mean that you should do X, or that there's anything wrong with not doing X, they just mean that X is the mechanically most advantageous option. No one expects or wants you, or anyone else, to always take the most mechanically advantageous option. The more you can tell about your goal, your preferences, and your limitations, the better we can advice you. Starting a thread on what are the "best" combat options without defining what you're looking for will get you, well, this.


...wait wait wait you can do that with rapier?
..know what i need to start a new thread for this.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Should I just...you know never start a serious thread again?

Not unless you're prepared to engage in rational discourse and/or acknowledge that just because a thing is pointed out to be less than maximally optimum doesn't mean anyone is hating on it or saying you're a bad person for wanting to use it.


Why am i not surprised that when people find out that you cant move and full attack with slippers of battledancing, they just toss them aside like trash.

You can move and full attack with the slippers, you can't pounce with them. Big difference. A belt of battle (quite useful in its own right) allows you to move as a move action and take a full round action as well up to 3 times per day. A dorje with hustle does the same 50 times. There are other ways as well, though they can be a bit more involved.

The quoted exchange wasn't saying that the slippers are generally useless and no one should ever use them. It was saying that, in the context of other highlighted options, it wasn't very synergistic and should probably be skipped.

Literally -all- melee builds outside of ToB initiators lose out on the majority of their damage dealing potential if they can't deliver a full attack, regardless of weapon style choice. Any option; feat, class feature, item, or spell effect; that prevents you from delivering your full attack is mechanically inferior to any option that fills the same slot and does allow you to full attack; which is, in-turn, inferior to any option which enables you to full attack more reliably.

Mechanically inferior doesn't mean suboptimal if damage through basic attacks isn't your primary goal and it certainly doesn't mean thematically inferior but if you're a melee damage dealer then you're going to want to be able to reliably full attack in one way or another by either being able to move -somehow- and full attack or prevent the enemy from moving and full attack.

[Deophaun]

Did you dip into battle dancer? Spring attack and snap kick. Oh and make sure you get gauntlet of heartfelt blows NEXT!

Spring attack really does nothing for you. Snap kick brings you up to two attacks. I could get seven out of that first bardblade I built. I could get much more now.

Now, two attacks as a standard can be fine if that's the power level of your group (I know some that would almost call it cheating), but it doesn't come close to the potential of the character, and in groups with moderate optimization you will find yourself quickly outclassed.

Your problem is that you're confusing mechanical judgements with value judgements. While I say that only attacking twice with a DFI bardblade is really lacking on the offense, it could be the perfect thing for your group. My bardblade couldn't really fly all that well, which was a no-no for the level we were playing at. But I had a hell of a lot of fun being John Carter with his +80 Jump, fun that I wouldn't have had if he had a Perfect fly speed of 120.

When you see this optimization talk, take it in, learn from it, but don't be a slave to it. The guides and discussions are tools to help you build your characters, not to control you. You know what your group faces and only you know what you enjoy. If you think that slippers of battle dancing are awesome, go for them. I mention the limitations because a lot of people miss it, even those who have been playing for a long time.

[Greenish]

...wait wait wait you can do that with rapier?
..know what i need to start a new thread for this.Technically, rapier just says that you "can’t wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1½ times your Strength bonus to damage", not that you couldn't wield it with two hands at all, and since Power Attack only cares about you wielding the weapon with two hands, you could argued that you can.

Most DMs would probably laugh at your face, though, and rightly so (and Curmudgeon might have something to say on the concept, too).

[Vhaidara]

Hell, when I saw that, I decided I was going to make the best duelist Pathfinder Society has ever seen: half orc barbarian. Dump int, pump str, and two hand a rapier.

[Heliomance]

Snowflake Wardance only encourages you to use a slashing weapon in one hand. It has absolutely no restriction as to what your other hand is doing. Slippers of the Battledancer only require a light or one-handed weapon. Both work if you have something in your other hand.

I'm AFB, but I could have sworn that one or other of them required your other hand to be empty.

[Necroticplague]

I'm AFB, but I could have sworn that one or other of them required your other hand to be empty.

Nope.

While these slippers are on the wearer’s feet, he moves with unnatural grace and alacrity, gaining an enhancement bonus of +10 feet to his land speed. The slippers also grant him a +5 competence bonus on Tumble checks. A wearer who has at least 5 ranks in Perform (dance) accesses the true benefit of the slippers of battledancing. As long as he uses his base land speed to move (a fl y, swim, burrowing, or climb speed), he gains a +2 insight bonus on initiative checks. If he moves at least 10 feet as part of a move action, he can use his Charisma modifier instead of his Strength or Dexterity modifier for attack rolls and damage rolls with one-handed or light weapons (both melee and ranged).


By expending one of your daily uses of bardic music, you may perform a deadly style of combat known as the snowflake wardance. Activating a snowflake wardance is a free action, and once activated, you add your Charisma modifier to your attack rolls with any slashing melee weapon you wield in one hand. This bonus to hit stacks with any bonuses you get from a high Strength score (or Dexterity score, if you are using Weapon Finesse).

You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a shield, wearing medium or heavy armor, or carrying a medium or heavy load.
A snowflake wardance lasts for a number of rounds equal to your ranks in Perform (dance). Performing a snowflake wardance is physically tiresome - when the snowflake wardance ends, you become fatigued for the next 10 minutes.
character requirement