[Brainstorming] Medium Armor Mastery -- fix ideas?

[Nifft]

Thinking about Medium Armor Mastery, and the two benefits seem much too situational. I feel like the feat is aimed at Rangers, and maybe Rogue / Fighter hybrids, and basically nobody else.

Here's what I want from a Medium Armor Mastery feat:
- Not to compete with Heavy armor in terms of AC.
- Reward shield users, even shield users who don't wear Medium armor.
- Benefit a wider range of characters.

- - -

Here's the best that I've been able to come up with so far:

Medium Armor Mastery
• You gain proficiency with shields, if you were not already proficient. (Hello Mountain Dwarves.)
• ???
• While you are wearing medium armor or using a shield (or both), all bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage that you take from non magical weapons is reduced by 2.


That's one very specific benefits, and one very broad benefit. Medium armor will never give you as good AC as either Light or Heavy armor, but this Mastery is still worth taking if you use a shield with your Light or Heavy armor -- and if you take both Armor Mastery feats, and wear Heavy armor while using a shield, you can get DR 5/magic.

I like the idea of a Light armor Dex + Shield Fighter who is significantly durable. (Yes, Captain, I do watch gladiator movies.)

- - -

EDIT: Removed the Stealth disadvantage negation. Looking for another minor benefit to replace it.

[ImSAMazing]

Great idea.

[HoarsHalberd]

Medium armor will never give you as good AC as either Light or Heavy armor,

What? Half-Plate and 14 dex is equal to studded and 20 dex. The only way light armour is ever better is if you get an item that lets you break the bounded accuracy cap.

[Nifft]

What? Half-Plate and 14 dex is equal to studded and 20 dex. The only way light armour is ever better is if you get an item that lets you break the bounded accuracy cap.

You're right, thanks.

Maybe I was thinking of unarmored AC bonuses instead of Light armor... those go up to 20, which compete with Heavy armor + Shield.

Hmm.

The Stealth disadvantage negation only affects two Medium armors anyway. That should probably go away -- if you want to be stealthy, you can just wear Light armor or one of the other Medium armors (not Half-Plate or Scale Mail).

[Shaofoo]

I would just make it a half feat and add +1 Str or Dex in addition to the bonuses that are already on it without anything special. I think damage reduction should be heavy armor only and there is no need for Medium armor to emulate that.

[Theodoxus]

It's niche for a reason, not every feat should appeal to every concept. I like that my barbar with a 16 dex is as tanky as the fighter in plate. I like that my barbar with his rogue dip can remain tanky and still scout; and survive the inevitable ambush he'll run into, unlike a standard rogue scout.

I'm sure there are rangers who feel the same way.

But it's your game, change however you want it - I also think your changes actually de-power the feat to the point it should be a half feat.

[Nifft]

I would just make it a half feat and add +1 Str or Dex in addition to the bonuses that are already on it without anything special.

That's a popular fix, but it's not a good fix IMHO -- the remaining benefits are still incredibly situational or build-specific.

Stealth doesn't apply to most characters.

Most Medium armors are not Scale or Half-Plate.

Most characters don't have exactly 16 Dexterity.

IMHO the current feat gives benefits which are both too weak, and also too specific.

[Human Paragon 3]

I disagree that the feat needs to change. It allows you to be a switch hitter / shock trooper as say a ranger or barbarian (or dwarven rogue) who can hide and then appear and hit hard and frontline. It helps with the two drawbacks of medium armor compared to light (disadvantage on stealth and the dex cap) without stepping on the toes of heavy (still best AC with no need for dex).

IMO you want a brand new feat that rewards mobility and shield and weapon style, and it doesn't need to have anything to do with medium armor.

If you are not stealthy and do not have a good dex score, you should be wearing heavy armor.

Granting DR 2 is pretty much a lite version of Heavy Armor Mastery.

How about something like "If you are wielding a shield and move 30 or more feet, attacks against you have disadvantage until the start of your next turn."

[Nifft]

It's niche for a reason, not every feat should appeal to every concept. That's technically true, but it's a bit of a tangent, since I'm not saying it should appeal to every concept.

I'm saying that the current feat is too niche, in comparison to the other feats in the game.


I like that my barbar with a 16 dex is as tanky as the fighter in plate. I like that my barbar with his rogue dip can remain tanky and still scout; and survive the inevitable ambush he'll run into, unlike a standard rogue scout. You're not as tanky. He gets DR 3/magic.

You can already scout with the Rouge. Just wear something other than Half-Plate. You have lots of great Medium armor from which to choose which will not impact your Stealth roll.


But it's your game, change however you want it - I also think your changes actually de-power the feat to the point it should be a half feat. You really think that DR 2/magic is a reduction in power?

I was worried about that being too strong.

[Nifft]

I disagree that the feat needs to change. It allows you to be a switch hitter / shock trooper as say a ranger or barbarian (or dwarven rogue) who can hide and then appear and hit hard and frontline. It helps with the two drawbacks of medium armor compared to light (disadvantage on stealth and the dex cap) without stepping on the toes of heavy (still best AC with no need for dex). As mentioned previously, most Medium armors don't impose Disadvantage on Stealth checks. 3/5 of the current armors allow switch hitting.

If you want to steak around in Medium armor, you can wear a Breastplate. There's no Feat tax for that.


IMO you want a brand new feat that rewards mobility and shield and weapon style, and it doesn't need to have anything to do with medium armor. Well, it kinda does, because shield proficiency is bundled with Medium armor proficiency (unless you're a Mountain Dwarf).

Also, what I'm giving is not mobility, it's damage reduction.


If you are not stealthy and do not have a good dex score, you should be wearing heavy armor. That is a valid choice.

Taking a feat to get Heavy armor proficiency is one valid character direction.

I don't want Medium Armor Mastery to directly compete with Heavy armor proficiency for that reason -- taking a feat to get a higher AC is already a choice.

Thus, I want the benefit from Medium Armor Mastery to not be about getting more AC, since "more AC" is what Heavy Armor Proficiency already does.


Granting DR 2 is pretty much a lite version of Heavy Armor Mastery. Medium Armor is pretty much a lite version of Heavy Armor, so that seems like a sane and reasonable thing to me.


How about something like "If you are wielding a shield and move 30 or more feet, attacks against you have disadvantage until the start of your next turn." Seems unrelated to what I'm trying to accomplish, but thanks.

[Theodoxus]

Have you read the threads regarding HAM? 3/Magic is pittance after 3rd level. It's why it's considered decent on vumans but a waste for anyone else. 2/Magic (or even 5/Magic for 2 feat expenditure) isn't that great.

Barbarians gain 50% reduction, magic or not. So yeah, far tankier than a 3/Magic HAM; I can't think of anything that even a 1st level character will face that does less than 4. (but I'm AFB, so I'm sure someone will gin one up /facepalm)

[DanyBallon]

I don't see how mastery in medium armor would give you bonus with a shield... Damage reduction 2/magic is redundant with heavy armor mastery, and is plain boring.

The feat as is may be situational but is flavourful with the concept of mastering the use of your armor. Adding a bomus to dex or str, is better in my opinion.

Remember that feat are optionnal and not everyone of them needs meant to be useful to all. The allow specicialization. This is exactly what the actual armor mastery allow.

If you want a feat that will give you shield proficiency/mastery + damage resistance, then go on and create one. It could be called Shield Expertise and voila!

[Nifft]

Have you read the threads regarding HAM? 3/Magic is pittance after 3rd level. It's why it's considered decent on vumans but a waste for anyone else. 2/Magic (or even 5/Magic for 2 feat expenditure) isn't that great. I've seen some, but apparently not enough. Could you recommend any particular analysis?


Barbarians gain 50% reduction, magic or not. So yeah, far tankier than a 3/Magic HAM; I can't think of anything that even a 1st level character will face that does less than 4. (but I'm AFB, so I'm sure someone will gin one up /facepalm) Yeah, Barbarians are tankier, especially Bearbarians... and a Barbarian with MAM or HAM is going to be tankier yet.


I don't see how mastery in medium armor would give you bonus with a shield... Damage reduction 2/magic is redundant with heavy armor mastery, and is plain boring. Other than the Mountain Dwarf racial trait, Medium armor proficiency is always accompanied by Shield proficiency.

Also, it's technically not redundant because it stacks, for example if you wear Heavy armor and use a Shield.


Remember that feat are optionnal and not everyone of them needs meant to be useful to all. The allow specicialization. This is exactly what the actual armor mastery allow. Hmm. I feel like the current feat is the OPPOSITE of specialization. It's ... middle-ization. Not specialized in Dexterity, not specialized in Heavy armor... it's a feat for someone who is trying to do everything, not for someone who is trying to do anything specific.


If you want a feat that will give you shield proficiency/mastery + damage resistance, then go on and create one. It could be called Shield Expertise and voila! Well, this works for two-handed Medium Armor guys as well as Shield guys.

It's good for a Barbarian who wants to wear a Breastplate and smack people with his two-handed weapon, and it's good for a Rogue/Fighter who wears Studded leather and a shield, and it's good for a sword-and-board Paladin who wears Heavy armor and uses a Shield.

- - -

Removing MAM and replacing it with two or three more specialized feats might be a good idea.

[Human Paragon 3]

Hmm. I feel like the current feat is the OPPOSITE of specialization. It's ... middle-ization. Not specialized in Dexterity, not specialized in Heavy armor... it's a feat for someone who is trying to do everything, not for someone who is trying to do anything specific.


This is kind of the point of medium armor though isn't it? It's the middle way. You need to invest in dex to get the most out of it, but not heavily. You get a good protection, but not as much as heavy armor. You get to keep your mobility, but if you want the best protection, you have to give up stealth.

The current feat accentuates the strengths of medium armor and mitigates its weaknesses. Adding DR is boring and doesn't feel in-theme. Making it about shields totally misses the point of it being a medium armor feat.

What kinds of characters take medium armor? Ones with middling dex scores and proficiencies, poor strength, and sometimes stealth.

If you want to be a stealthy character with the best armor possible, medium armor mastery is a great choice. If you need a defensive boost but don't have the strength to wear heavy armor, medium armor mastery is a pretty good choice.

If you don't care about being more defensible, then taking an armor-related feat is pointless to begin with.

The medium armor wearers who maybe get the worst mileage out of medium armor mastery are dwarf casters and non-stealthy archers.

The feat you suggest seems to be tailored to mountain dwarfs with bad strength, which is even more niche than the feat you're trying to replace.

[Demonic Spoon]

If you want to be a stealthy character with the best armor possible, medium armor mastery is a great choice. If you need a defensive boost but don't have the strength to wear heavy armor, medium armor mastery is a pretty good choice.


A stealthy character will typically start with middling dex, but then end up with 20 dex, at which point they might as well use studded leather.


What if MAM allowed you to add your strength modifier to AC instead of Dex? Then it would be a good choice for strength-based characters who nevertheless cared about stealthiness.

[Human Paragon 3]

Medium Armor Mastery with 16 dex and half plate gives you 18 AC. Studded and 20 Dex gives you 17 AC. The +1 matters in this edition, so I would maintain that if you are stealthy and want the best AC possible, medium armor mastery is a good choice. You can get to 20 AC with a shield.

If you think it's too weak, a +1 to dex or str would make it more palatable. If you had 14 dex, this would get you to 15 so you could get it to 16 more easily later.

[Nifft]

This is kind of the point of medium armor though isn't it? It's the middle way. You need to invest in dex to get the most out of it, but not heavily. You get a good protection, but not as much as heavy armor. You get to keep your mobility, but if you want the best protection, you have to give up stealth. Yes, and that's exactly why emphasizing those traits is the opposite of specialization.

IMHO specialization in Medium armor ought to provide benefits which apply to all Medium armor users, not just 2/5 of the armor types and a few specific character types or multi-classes.


Making it about shields totally misses the point of it being a medium armor feat. Er. I didn't "make it about shields". Please don't use that sort of rhetorical tactic.


The medium armor wearers who maybe get the worst mileage out of medium armor mastery are dwarf casters and non-stealthy archers.
People who get poor mileage out of the current MAM include:
- Non-stealthy anyone.
- People who do not have exactly 16 Dexterity.
- People who are trained in Stealth but who are not wearing Scale Male or Half-Plate (i.e. they're wearing a Chain Shirt or a Breastplate instead).

That's most people.

Most people who qualify for MAM don't benefit from the current feat.


The feat you suggest seems to be tailored to mountain dwarfs with bad strength, which is even more niche than the feat you're trying to replace. That's not accurate.

The only benefit which is specific to Mountain Dwarves is that it grants Shield proficiency, and that's an incredibly minor benefit since everyone else who could qualify for the feat already has that.

- - -

Anyway, anyone have thoughts on a decent but very minor ability to replace the Stealth thing?

Thanks!

[Nifft]

Medium Armor Mastery with 16 dex and half plate gives you 18 AC. Studded and 20 Dex gives you 17 AC. The +1 matters in this edition, so I would maintain that if you are stealthy and want the best AC possible, medium armor mastery is a good choice. You can get to 20 AC with a shield. Yeah, I totally agree that +1 AC is significant.

The thing is that Heavy Armor also maxes out at 20 AC (with a shield).

I don't want to invalidate the choice between Medium and Heavy armor by making Medium AC identical to Heavy AC.

I want Heavy armor to be better protection than Medium, and Light armor to be a better option for high-Dex / high-Stealth characters.

Medium armor thus can have:
- Better durability than Light (the DR 2/magic) and better AC (because you can use a shield); and
- Worse durability than fully-optimized Heavy armor, but requires less investment (Str and feat cost).

So it's for people who don't care enough to invest TWO feats in protection. They can invest one feat for Heavy proficiency, or one feat for MAM, and get benefits which both improve durability but which are not strictly identical.

[Kryx]

- Better durability than Light (the DR 2/magic) and better AC (because you can use a shield);
One of your stated goals is to not duplicate Heavy Armor, but this is basically word for word heavy armor master with 1 less damage reduced.

Medium armor mastery should be about boosting medium armor, not shield - shields already have their own feat.

As it stands Medium armor's niche is a build with medium dex (16). It can then match heavy.

Studded Leather = 12+5 dex = 17
Half Plate = 15+2 dex = 17 + 1 dex and no stealth disadvantage for a feat
Full Plate = 18 and DR for a feat

Medium armor should get more for the feat, but DR is heavy armor's thing.

[Human Paragon 3]

I think letting the original feat also grant shield proficiency would be totally fine. And +1 to Str or Dex.

[bid]

If you want to steak around in Medium armor, you can wear a Breastplate. There's no Feat tax for that.
MAM allows you to use half plate and still be stealthy, that's a +1 AC compared to breastplate. Even a Dex20 would gain +1 AC compared to studded leather.

If someone is willing to spend a feat to have a stealthy "heavy armor", why would you stop them?
Would you stop Magic Initiate from picking vicious mockery or guidance?

[D.U.P.A.]

People who get poor mileage out of the current MAM include:
- Non-stealthy anyone.
- People who do not have exactly 16 Dexterity.
- People who are trained in Stealth but who are not wearing Scale Male or Half-Plate (i.e. they're wearing a Chain Shirt or a Breastplate instead).

That's most people.



You do not lose anything if you have 18 Dex. Even if you have 20, you are still better than light armor users. Also you guys should stop thinking at lvl 20 characters. Sure, Medium armor mastery kinda loses its potency with levels, but most games are way below that. Usually medium armor users start with Dex at 16, many of these are casters and they need also bump their spellcasting modifier too, pick some other feats, which means they would not even get to 20 Dex even at last level. If this is the debate, IMO Heavy armor master is even worse, even if you get stat bump and practically OP at 1st level, at higher levels becomes quite unnoticeable and boring.

[Coidzor]

So you're making Medium Armor Mastery of most interest to people who don't even wear Medium Armor as part of your goal? :smallconfused:


What kinds of characters take medium armor? Ones with middling dex scores and proficiencies, poor strength, and sometimes stealth.

The medium armor wearers who maybe get the worst mileage out of medium armor mastery are dwarf casters and non-stealthy archers.

Non-Dex barbarians say hello.


If someone is willing to spend a feat to have a stealthy "heavy armor", why would you stop them?

No, but I'd still point out that Mithral armor is a better usage of resources if that's what they want, depending upon how the game deals with gear.


Removing MAM and replacing it with two or three more specialized feats might be a good idea.

It does seem like Medium Armor is trying to serve too many different masters, yeah.

[djreynolds]

We are not multi-classing in this game I'm playing this time but we are using feats. So I rolled a champion again to see how the feats are to play with. And...

I actually took it for my champion, I found because of remarkable athlete I was heading out on different missions. I wasn't waiting in chainmail waiting for the draw bridge to drop. I was approaching clumsily, with rogue and monk, in stealth and climbing the tower and opening the bridge for others. Even though he's a strength build, at 8th level I grabbed the MAM and at 10th I grabbed archery style. It just allowed me to do more.

It is very situational. And more than likely I'm probably going to regret taking it instead of another medium armor that granted stealth and another feat like resilient in wisdom or GWM now. I think this is one of the few situations where one might benefit from the feat. I think a barbarian is probably trying to chase down high scores in strength, dexterity, and constitution and doesn't even have the time to consider it. A valor bard might take it, if he has the stats and doesn't want to multiclass. Maybe a mountain dwarf rogue or caster will want it.

Its definitely a luxury feat for someone who rolled very well or someone unwilling to multiclass but wants the best armor.

A crazy solution could be a 3rd feat. If say a paladin took medium armor master and heavy armor master he could take "armor master" and gain the benefits of both former feats, aside from the dexterity bonus in heavy armor. He could stealth in heavy armor and have damage reduction in medium armor.

[DanyBallon]

Like I said earlier feats were not design with optimiszation in mind. They were created to help define a character concept. Some feat are defenitely better and are a must go for optimizer, but every feat can be revalent to fit a character concept. Medium armor mastery is design to represent the concept of a character that is so much tune to medium armor that he now can be stealthy even with armor that he shouldn't, and is so much used to wear medium armor that he found way to not be as limited in its movement.

[HEEGZ]

My only change to the medium armor mastery feat is to give it automatically to any elf wearing Elven Chain (magical chain shirt). So it only applies to an elven noble or adventurer type of NPC. I would do the same thing for a dwarf in Dwarven Plate (and the Heavy feat), but that is much more rare in my games.

[djreynolds]

Like I said earlier feats were not design with optimiszation in mind. They were created to help define a character concept. Some feat are defenitely better and are a must go for optimizer, but every feat can be revalent to fit a character concept. Medium armor mastery is design to represent the concept of a character that is so much tune to medium armor that he now can be stealthy even with armor that he shouldn't, and is so much used to wear medium armor that he found way to not be as limited in its movement.

Agreed, it is definitely a concept feat.

For my champion, I wanted to be included in all facets of the game and not left behind.

It is not un-optimized, but definitely a luxury. I mean I could just wear studded leather.

[Nifft]

One of your stated goals is to not duplicate Heavy Armor, but this is basically word for word heavy armor master with 1 less damage reduced. Nope, because it lacks the AC of Heavy armor.

AC is more important than DR 2/magic or DR 3/magic.


As it stands Medium armor's niche is a build with medium dex (16). It can then match heavy. Yes, that's exactly what I'm hoping to avoid.


MAM allows you to use half plate and still be stealthy, that's a +1 AC compared to breastplate. Even a Dex20 would gain +1 AC compared to studded leather. Studded Leather = 12 + Dex, and 12 + 5 = 17.
Half-Plate = 15 + min(2, Dex), and 15 + 2 = 17.


If someone is willing to spend a feat to have a stealthy "heavy armor", why would you stop them? Breastplate is looking at you with puppy-dog eyes.
She's trying her best to be strong, but you're just not listening.
Why are you trying to make Breastplate cry?


Would you stop Magic Initiate from picking vicious mockery or guidance? That's silly.


So you're making Medium Armor Mastery of most interest to people who don't even wear Medium Armor as part of your goal? I'd like to respond to you, but I honestly can't tell what you're trying to criticize in specific.

Can you unpack that in some way that's more like a chain of reasoning, and less like a political campaign slur?

Thanks.


It is very situational. And more than likely I'm probably going to regret taking it instead of another medium armor that granted stealth and another feat like resilient in wisdom or GWM now. I think this is one of the few situations where one might benefit from the feat. I think a barbarian is probably trying to chase down high scores in strength, dexterity, and constitution and doesn't even have the time to consider it. A valor bard might take it, if he has the stats and doesn't want to multiclass. Maybe a mountain dwarf rogue or caster will want it.

Its definitely a luxury feat for someone who rolled very well or someone unwilling to multiclass but wants the best armor. Here's the thing: if you've already got Dex 16, you might as well spend the ASI on +2 Dex and get a bonus to Initiative, Dex saves, all Dex skills, and Ranged weapon attack & damage rolls... and wear Studded Leather. It sounds like you're going to be using Archery in the future, so you'll presumably want to get to 20 Dexterity eventually.


Like I said earlier feats were not design with optimiszation in mind. They were created to help define a character concept. Some feat are defenitely better and are a must go for optimizer, but every feat can be revalent to fit a character concept. Medium armor mastery is design to represent the concept of a character that is so much tune to medium armor that he now can be stealthy even with armor that he shouldn't, and is so much used to wear medium armor that he found way to not be as limited in its movement. They can already do that, though. If you don't care about optimization, just wear the lower AC armor and you have no Stealth penalty.

The only reason the feat matters is for people who care about optimization (of AC) and care about optimization (of Stealth rolls).

If you don't care about optimization, the feat is double irrelevant.


My only change to the medium armor mastery feat is to give it automatically to any elf wearing Elven Chain (magical chain shirt). So it only applies to an elven noble or adventurer type of NPC. I would do the same thing for a dwarf in Dwarven Plate (and the Heavy feat), but that is much more rare in my games.

That makes a lot of sense.

Using those bonuses as racial familiarity is a really good idea.

[Kryx]

Nope, because it lacks the AC of Heavy armor.

AC is more important than DR 2/magic or DR 3/magic.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm hoping to avoid.
It has the exact same AC. Both get 18. Heavy armor would have DR 3 and medium would have DR 2.

Your houserule violates your premise of diffentiating them.

If you plan to remove the max dex boost then medium armor becomes even worse.

[Ruslan]

I would just tack "+1 Dex or Str" to MAM and call it a day.

[Nifft]

It has the exact same AC. Both get 18. Heavy armor would have DR 3 and medium would have DR 2. I think you might be confusing the versions of MAM.

With this version, Half-Plate is 15 +2 = 17, which is one less than 18.

The old version makes Half-Plate + 16 Dex = Full Plate. That's what I dislike, and that's what I'm trying to fix.


If you plan to remove the max dex boost then medium armor becomes even worse. Worse than Heavy armor in terms of AC?

Yes, yes it is.

Medium armor is not equal to Heavy armor, and that's okay because Heavy armor costs more resources (feats, gold, Str minimum, etc.).

[Kryx]

So your goal is to take a niche armor class, and make it less worthwhile for "flavor"? You'd be effectively making it more niche and worse overall.

I can't agree with that goal.

And heavy armor doesn't have a higher cost in your system.
In your system heavy is 18 AC with a feat for DR 3.
Medium is 15 AC and requires 2 dex to get 17. And then requires a feat to get DR 2.

It's a horrendously bad option.

[bid]

Studded Leather = 12 + Dex, and 12 + 5 = 17.
Half-Plate = 15 + min(3, Dex), and 15 + 3 = 18.
FTFY



That's silly.

That's my point.

[Tanarii]

It's niche, but it does what it's supposed to do. It's +2 AC for any Dex 16/18 char that can or might want to use Medium Armor. That's a fairly large list.

Characters that benefit from a high (but not maxed) Dex and use Medium Armor: Barbarian, Valor Bard, Cleric (Knowledge, Light, Trickery), Ranger (Str-based).

Even a Dex-based Pally, Fighter, Ranger or Cleric might consider the feat worth it for just +1 AC over Studded Leather.

With a Mountain Dwarf, it adds: Bard (Lore), Warlock, Rogue (Str (+2 AC) or Max Dex (+1 AC)), and Sorcerer/Wizard (unlikely).

[djreynolds]

Concept vs optimization.

My mountain dwarf champion now has a 20 in strength, 16 in dex (20 in dex in terms of archery and archery style) and I've taken the medium armor master. We we're doing those special missions from you're group, "The Harper's", and we started doing more stealth stuff.

I hated being left out. I realized remarkable athlete, a little benefit, did give me a little push to say "Hay I'm Gimli, I'm a rider" or whatever he said. But this is definitely more concept than optimization. But with a fighter with 7 feats I can afford it and make it work.

This is a luxury feat for someone who can afford it. I don't think with SPBI, anybody is really looking at this as an option other than a barbarian or fighter or fighter/rogue strength types or valor bard or strength ranger. But it does have its uses. Can you afford it? If you rolled well take it. I play a mountain dwarf and rolled a 16 in str, 14 in dex, 14 in con at 6th level my strength was 20. At 8th level I took MAM and 10th I took archery and 12th I took 2 in dex for a 16. Maybe shield master was a better investment and now I'll have to wait till 14. But a lot of our missions are B&E, spying, non-combat stealth stuff and to be involved yet still retain my fighter brute concept I took MAM.

[Coidzor]

I'd like to respond to you, but I honestly can't tell what you're trying to criticize in specific.

Your stated ethos here is what I was referring to.


Medium armor will never give you as good AC as either Light or Heavy armor, but this Mastery is still worth taking if you use a shield with your Light or Heavy armor -- and if you take both Armor Mastery feats, and wear Heavy armor while using a shield, you can get DR 5/magic.

I like the idea of a Light armor Dex + Shield Fighter who is significantly durable. (Yes, Captain, I do watch gladiator movies.)

A feat for specializing in Medium Armor or perfecting it or mastering it or what have you should not be of principal interest to people who don't wear medium armor in the first place, whether they're light armor types or people who want to be super heavy tanks in heavy armor.


Medium armor is not equal to Heavy armor, and that's okay because Heavy armor costs more resources (feats, gold, Str minimum, etc.).

Half-Plate plus 16 Dex plus a Feat is more of a cost than Fullplate without a feat. Not meeting the Strength minimum for heavy armor is hardly an issue for someone who is going with Strength over Dex in the first place and due to being such a minor penalty. The Dex requirement is the annoying part because it's so binary what with it not being a cost at all to Dex-based characters and being a fairly high cost to characters who aren't Dex-based.

Unless you're saying Feats can be purchased for less than 750 gold in your games. In which case, hey, if feats are purchasable, I'll take that tradeoff.

[Nifft]

So your goal is to take a niche armor class, and make it less worthwhile for "flavor"? You'd be effectively making it more niche and worse overall.

I can't agree with that goal. You're not accurately representing what my goal is.

If you're interested in helping the thread's goal, then you're welcome to participate -- but if you're not interested in the goal of the thread, I'm not sure how you can help.


Concept vs optimization.

My mountain dwarf champion now has a 20 in strength, 16 in dex (20 in dex in terms of archery and archery style) and I've taken the medium armor master. If you're starting with 16 Dex, then you've specifically optimized for the core MAM feat.

IMHO that's fine -- there's nothing bad about mechanical optimization.


Your stated ethos here is what I was referring to.

A feat for specializing in Medium Armor or perfecting it or mastering it or what have you should not be of principal interest to people who don't wear medium armor in the first place, whether they're light armor types or people who want to be super heavy tanks in heavy armor. I mention two non-obvious beneficiaries.

That's not an "ethos", it's just two examples which seemed non-obvious.

There are five obvious example beneficiaries -- one for each type of Medium armor -- which are the people of principal interest.

But, the thing is: they're obvious.

I didn't think I needed to list them.

I can spend some words talking about them, if that will clear things up for you, but honestly... they ought to be obvious.


Half-Plate plus 16 Dex plus a Feat is more of a cost than Fullplate without a feat. If you only have Medium armor proficiency, then Fullplate does cost a feat.

Wearing Fullplate costs 15 Strength (rather similar in cost to 16 Dexterity).

The costs are congruent for the people who are the primary focus of this feat -- and to be clear, those are the people who have Medium armor proficiency but not Heavy armor proficiency.

[DanyBallon]

Medium armor mastery is fine as is. It convey mechanically the idea of being so proficient with medium armor that you get to be more agile in it and can use even the clunkiest armor of the category for stealth.
A bonus to Str or Dex, could help the feat to be more appealing.

You proposition about giving shield proficiency and damage reduction doesn't fith the feat thematically. On the other hand it can be incorporate to a new feat that you can fluff around those abilities

i.e. Infantry soldier (I know the name sucks, but I'm quite unimaginative this morning :smalltongue: )
Prerequisite: medium armor

You are trained into being on the front line in order to protect those behind you. (think roman phalanx in medium armor)

-You gain profiency with shield
-Your base speed increase by 5 feet
-While you are wearing medium armor, piercing and slashing damage from non magical weapon is reduced by 2

This new feat gives you pretty much what you are looking for, it's holding up thematicaly and make more sens on it's own than modifying MAM.

P.S. I removed bludgeoning as a way to move away from the ability of HAM and I think it fit the them, in fact, I first thought about only giving reduction to piercing damage, but it was too far from what you were looking for.

[Kryx]

If you're interested in helping the thread's goal, then you're welcome to participate
Then please restate your goal. Currently your implementation is making a mediocre feat significantly worse. Everyone in the thread is saying so.

[Nifft]

Then please restate your goal. Currently your implementation is making a mediocre feat significantly worse.

Here's the goal:

Here's what I want from a Medium Armor Mastery feat:
- Not to compete with Heavy armor in terms of AC.
- Reward shield users, even shield users who don't wear Medium armor.
- Benefit a wider range of characters.

The current feat does not meet these goals.

You're welcome to help come up with something that does meet these goals -- but, not the original feat, because (as noted previously) it does not meet these goals.

Thanks for your consideration.



Everyone in the thread is saying so.
Actually most people are saying that they think the original feat is fine.

That's great for them.

It's not very relevant to my goals, though, since the original feat does not meet my goals.

[DanyBallon]

Here's the goal:

Here's what I want from a Medium Armor Mastery feat:
- Not to compete with Heavy armor in terms of AC.
- Reward shield users, even shield users who don't wear Medium armor.
- Benefit a wider range of characters.

The current feat does not meet these goals.

You're welcome to help come up with something that does meet these goals -- but, not the original feat, because (as noted previously) it does not meet these goals.

Thanks for your consideration.



Actually most people are saying that they think the original feat is fine.

That's great for them.

It's not very relevant to my goals, though, since the original feat does not meet my goals.

The change you're looking for is denaturing the sense of MAM, in the way that being extremely proficient with an armor ain't helping you being better with a shield. That's why we mostly agree that the feat is fine.

You can have a look to the feat I posted earlier this morning.

[djreynolds]

I like the idea of getting a shield, especially for a mountain dwarf wizard I'm playing as well. But without war caster I have to decide between hand axes (throwing) them or a shield, or hand axes and tossing up the shield spell. Now multi-classing can get you the shield proficiency with fighter, etc and medium armor comes with it. And its not terrible for any dexterity based character to take MAM armor because every bit helps. I understand there are medium armors available that do not cramp stealth already. So its a good fix. The shield is a big deal, and this may detract from valor bards who get a shield along with martial weapons, etc. I think a bonus to dexterity might give someone more incentive to take it. And I would just possibly add this to the existing feat since it only has really two perks, instead of the three.

We are brainstorming. So either add the shield proficiency to it or the dex bonus. That would work. But not strength, you gotta still leave a hang up to dissuade guys.