Advice on a Melee Battlefield Controller

[Draconium]

So, for an upcoming game, I've been wanting to make a ToB-based battlefield controller character, and I needed some advice on it. I've heard that building a Lockdown/Crackdown character is decent with a Crusader/Warblade, but since I haven't played a Crusader before, I'm unsure what to really focus on for feats, maneuvers, and prestige classes. Or if I should just go purely one class. Any advice you guys might have?

[BowStreetRunner]

Devoted Spirit Stance: Thicket of Blades
Devoted Spirit Maneuvers: Defensive Rebuke, Entangling Blade
Feats worth including: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Combat Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit, Defensive Sweep, Mage Slayer, Improved Trip, Stand Still
PrC worth considering: Exotic Weapon Master (Exotic Reach, Flurry of Strikes)

Oh, and get yourself a Dwarvencrafted (RoS 159) Admantine (DMG 283) Living Chain (MH 42) if you are able.

[RolandDeschain]

nets, lots of nets

maybe Earth Devotion and find a way to get some UMD ranks as well

[Draconium]

Okay, I just realized I should point something out about this game in particular. It's a gestalt game, and one side of the gestalt is going to be one of these (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1045.0) classes. So I'm going to be relying on natural attacks, as I don't like mouthpick weapons for... fluff reasons. Reach, though, won't be a problem.

[Darrin]

I've heard that building a Lockdown/Crackdown character is decent with a Crusader/Warblade, but since I haven't played a Crusader before, I'm unsure what to really focus on for feats, maneuvers, and prestige classes. Or if I should just go purely one class. Any advice you guys might have?

Lockdown is pretty straightforward: reach weapon + Thicket of Blades stance + Combat Reflexes + Stand Still. Crusader is generally the go-to class for this (and their tankish ability to absorb obscene amounts of damage obviously helps), but their skewed stance progression makes it difficult to grab Thicket of Blades right when their Initiator Level = 5. You can get it via Martial Stance at ECL 6, but there are a bunch of awesome feats competing for that 6th level slot.

Chain-trippers tend to be popular. Add EWP: Spiked Chain, Improved Trip (sometimes via Wolf Totem Barbarian dip), and Knock-Down (if the SRD version is available). Not only does Stand Still immobilize your opponent, but tripping him eats up his action economy by forcing him to waste an action standing up, triggering another AoO.

Being larger also helps quite a bit: double reach, higher bonuses on opposed rolls, and so forth. Hence you may see some Psychic Warrior levels to pick up expansion.

[OldTrees1]

Okay, I just realized I should point something out about this game in particular. It's a gestalt game, and one side of the gestalt is going to be one of these (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1045.0) classes. So I'm going to be relying on natural attacks, as I don't like mouthpick weapons for... fluff reasons. Reach, though, won't be a problem.

Well, that covers a lot of the support(flight, reach, senses, ...)

Good feats:
Combat Reflexes, Evasive Reflexes, Mage Slayer, Robliar's Gambit
Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip(amazing when flying) -> Knockdown?
Power Attack -> Improved Bullrush -> Knockback

[Draconium]

Hmm... I'm pretty sure I'm gonna want some Warblade levels in this - at least a couple. There are some Iron Heart and Diamond Mind Maneuvers and stances I'm going to want. Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge, and Pearl of Black Doubt especially jump out at me. However, I think I'm gonna stick with Crusader primarily, and just dip into Warblade levels a couple of times. Is that a good idea?

[OldTrees1]

Hmm... I'm pretty sure I'm gonna want some Warblade levels in this - at least a couple. There are some Iron Heart and Diamond Mind Maneuvers and stances I'm going to want. Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge, and Pearl of Black Doubt especially jump out at me. However, I think I'm gonna stick with Crusader primarily, and just dip into Warblade levels a couple of times. Is that a good idea?

Yes. With all ToB classes, the 1st level is the strongest(get the most manuevers) and gets stronger the longer it is delayed. For example if you took Warblade 1 at 9th level you could snag Iron Heart Surge and 2 Diamond Mind save maneuvers in a single level.

[Draconium]

Yes. With all ToB classes, the 1st level is the strongest(get the most manuevers) and gets stronger the longer it is delayed. For example if you took Warblade 1 at 9th level you could snag Iron Heart Surge and 2 Diamond Mind save maneuvers in a single level.

I think I'm gonna take Warblade at levels 9 and 10. This will give me 4 maneuvers, which I want to use for Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge, Emerald Razor, and Action Before Thought (I need a better Reflex save in the build), and the Pearl of Black Doubt stance. It will also effectively advance my Crusader IL by one.

[BowStreetRunner]

...I think I'm gonna stick with Crusader primarily, and just dip into Warblade levels a couple of times. Is that a good idea?

It is actually advisable if you want to get the best stances available to a Crusader. The Crusader picks up his first stance at 1st level (IL 1), his second stance at 2nd level (IL 1), his third at 8th (IL 4), and his fourth at 14th (IL 7). Devoted Spirit stances become available at IL 1, 3, 6, and 8 while Stone Dragon and White Raven stances become available at IL 1, 3, 5, and 8. So there are arguments for dipping other classes before Crusader 2, 8, or 14 in order to take advantage of better stance selection.

Crusader/Warblade also gives you the option to go into Master of Nine if that suits your fancy.

[Draconium]

Crusader/Warblade also gives you the option to go into Master of Nine if that suits your fancy.

I considered it, but at the moment, I don't have nearly enough feats to spare to afford getting the prerequisites.

[justiceforall]

For example if you took Warblade 1 at 9th level you could snag Iron Heart Surge and 2 Diamond Mind save maneuvers in a single level

Am I missing something here? 1st level of Warblade gets 3 maneuvers, and Iron Heart Surge has a prerequisite of 1 Iron Heart maneuver?

[OldTrees1]

Am I missing something here? 1st level of Warblade gets 3 maneuvers, and Iron Heart Surge has a prerequisite of 1 Iron Heart maneuver?

The Stance counts as a maneuver for the purpose of prerequisites IIRC (since "stances are a special kind of maneuver"). This allows Warblade to grab 2 3rd level maneuvers with 2 prereqs at 9th.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Take 4 levels of Drunken Master from C.Warrior, then pick the most absurdly long improvised weapon you can, like 300 ft long Troll Gut Rope (from MIC). From there...standard Trip / Combat Reflexes / Stand Still / etc... stuff.


Improved Improvised Weapons (Ex): A drunken master of 4th level or higher can use long improvised weapons (such as ladders) as reach weapons according to their length, and improvised weapons with many protrusions (such as chairs) provide a +2 bonus on opponents' disarm attempts. Finally, large objects with broad, flat surfaces (such as tables) can be upended to become improvised tower shields.

[justiceforall]

The Stance counts as a maneuver for the purpose of prerequisites IIRC (since "stances are a special kind of maneuver").

Haha really and that counts as RAW? That's pretty sweet if so, many of my characters would now take Warblade at 9th :P

[OldTrees1]

Haha really and that counts as RAW? That's pretty sweet if so, many of my characters would now take Warblade at 9th :P

Better rule lawyers than I have agreed that it is RAW.
Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics on the Warblade refresh mechanic for 1 level? Yes please!

[justiceforall]

I hope you realise you've now made me consider changing my current character's build for the 8000th time you evil, evil person.


Oh and actually *on* the topic of the thread not to mention the character I'm complaining about above - 3 or 5 levels of Knight is quite good for a lockdown build (Bulwark of Defense and Vigilant Defender respectively). Bulwark meshes very well with Crusader I'm told.

[BowStreetRunner]

Haha really and that counts as RAW? That's pretty sweet if so, many of my characters would now take Warblade at 9th :P
From ToB p. 44 "Stances are considered maneuvers for the purpose of meeting a prerequisite to learn a new maneuver." So it's not exactly controversial, as it is pretty much explicitly spelled out as how it works.

If you were not aware of that, you may also have missed this part too. In order to gain a new maneuver the rules state "You must meet a maneuver’s prerequisite to learn it." This is repeated several times throughout the Tome of Battle. There is nothing requiring you to meet the prerequisite in order to keep the maneuver once it is learned. This is important because you can use a Crusader's, Swordage's, or Warblade's ability at 4th and every even level afterward to replace one maneuver with another. If the rules required you to always meet the prerequisite then sometimes dropping one maneuver could cause you to no longer qualify for others as well, making things needlessly complex. But the really great part is that when you use this ability to replace one maneuver with another, you still have the original maneuver at the time you learn the new one. So effectively you can count the one you are going to drop in qualifying for the one you are going to add.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Okay, I just realized I should point something out about this game in particular. It's a gestalt game, and one side of the gestalt is going to be one of these (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1045.0) classes. So I'm going to be relying on natural attacks, as I don't like mouthpick weapons for... fluff reasons. Reach, though, won't be a problem.

Can you use any of these (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=270.0), or just specific ones?

If you're going to be large size, I'm going to recommend including Fighter 2 or 6 for the Dungeoncrasher ACF in Dungeonscape, which combines superbly with the feat Knock-Back in Races of Stone. It's also not a bad idea to include Fighter 9 with the Zhentarim Soldier (archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution levels, along with Imperious Command in Drow of the Underdark, the Never Outnumbered skill trick in CS, and possibly even Scarlet Corsair (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050805b) 5. Fear effects in general (brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809) are a superb method of crowd control at most levels. You could go Fighter 9/ Warblade 10/ Fighter 1 and take Weapon Supremacy in PH2 as your Fighter 10 bonus feat. You could also include War Hulk in the Minitatures Handbook to hit multiple targets with each attack and increase your strength score significantly, its greatest drawback is its lack of BAB advancement but that doesn't really matter on a gestalt character.