Using an artifact as a spell focus

[glitterbaby]

As the title suggests, how many spell levels would you lower a spell if it was required to use a Major Artifact as a spell focus?

[GilesTheCleric]

None. Lowering the level of a spell isn't a good idea in any circumstance I can think of. Almost every spell has a replacement or can be substituted, and since Artifacts have no value, could also be Eschew Materials'd or taken as an SLA at a lower level than normal. If you're trying to lock away a spell as a quest reward, do it in the metagame by banning the spell entirely, and saying it's available to learn and use through roleplay.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, having an artifact as a focus basically says "You may only use this spell with DM permission". As this is true for every spell, this doesn't change the base cost.

To lower the level of a spell you have to actually limit it in a functional way. A hour per level buff is significantly less useful if it costs enough money per casting to make it impractical to cast at the start of each day. A focus limits a spell's power if it restricts the effect, like planer travel (the fork determines the destination, not the caster), meaning you can't just go wherever you want. A focus could also be unwieldy, like "Focus, a obsidian pillar 10ft tall that has stood in place at least one year". There is a spell that can't just be cast willy nilly. That is a spell restricted significantly.

Just my thoughts.

[ZamielVanWeber]

A better choice would probably be Artifact Spells from Secrets of Xen'drik. They require quests to discover and can only be cast once before you have to relearn them; make it so the players cannot take the original text with them and there you go.

Note Artifact Spells are more powerful their counterparts at the same level. A 9th level one would need to be stronger than spells like Wish, Miracle, Shapechange, and Gate.

[glitterbaby]

Hmm I guess I was of the mind initially that making the spell only be able to be cast in a verryy specific situation would allow the spell to be more powerful. The idea was to take a spell or spell effect that currently exists and increase the power of it a bit. For example if the artifact was focused on destruction then maybe a no-save disintegrate as an 8th slot? General consensus is to not do that?

[GilesTheCleric]

Hmm I guess I was of the mind initially that making the spell only be able to be cast in a verryy specific situation would allow the spell to be more powerful. The idea was to take a spell or spell effect that currently exists and increase the power of it a bit. For example if the artifact was focused on destruction then maybe a no-save disintegrate as an 8th slot? General consensus is to not do that?

Spells are already far more powerful than they need to be; making them powerful beyond that serves no purpose. Any caster could create a "no-save disintegrate" simply by being a mailman, or by having a DC that's impossible to save against (+curse of misfortune for 20s). I'm fairly certain there's a metamagic that prevents being raised; it's probably +2 or less. Alternatively, you could do it with two spells -- orb of X and a limited/wish to prevent resurrection. I think Necrotic Termination is a no-save disintegrate anyway.

[glitterbaby]

Maybe I should rephrase the question. What kind of additional power could you add to a spell if you're using an artifact as a spell focus? This question is asked assuming there is already a precedent established in the setting where people have done such things. I'm mostly interested in the magnitude here, not whether or not it's possible by RAW.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Maybe I should rephrase the question. What kind of additional power could you add to a spell if you're using an artifact as a spell focus? This question is asked assuming there is already a precedent established in the setting where people have done such things. I'm mostly interested in the magnitude here, not whether or not it's possible by RAW.

The only real example we have is Apocalypse from the Sky. Its damage is poor for a 9th level spell, but the area is insane. I would limit artifact using spells for 9th level and just make their effects huge. Strictly better wish, experience free gate, et cetera.

[jiriku]

Since acquiring a major artifact is a significant plot highlight, a spell that requires use of a major artifact should also be a significant plot highlight. I'd say that an artifact-requiring 9th level spell could do anything an epic spell could do, but would be a DM-created spell (or at least created by the player and DM in close partnership) and would ideally be castable only once -- either because it could truly only be cast once, or because its effect would logically only be needed once.

In other words, the spell isn't really a spell at all, just a plot gizmo that makes the story cooler.