Int Check to Invent Syringe

[LordOfCain]

What would a good DC be to invent a syringe??? My character wants to invent a syringe so he can replace his blood plasma with alchemist's fire.

[EisenKreutzer]

That... Sounds like a terrible idea..

[LordOfCain]

It may be or it may not be but he is doing it to make poisoned commoners believe he is the son of Pelor. Don't ask.

[Honest Tiefling]

I think a wisdom check not to light yourself on fire and kill yourself in the process is more appropriate.

[LordOfCain]

Ah. But what about an Int check to INVENT the syringe. No such thing has been invented yet. Would it be a craft (alchemy) skill?

[Nerd-o-rama]

He should invest in a Holocaust Cloak instead. Much safer.

[Draconium]

I don't know that the DC would be, but I don't think Craft (Alchemy) would apply to inventing a syringe. Probably more like Craft (Toolmaking) or whatever that would be...

But don't let him replace his blood with Alchemist's Fire. Just... don't. It's a terrible idea.

[Arael666]

If you're looking for RAW, there is none. Syringes dont exist in D&D, and tehrefore cannot be crafted or "invented".

That being said, anything goes, ask your DM what he thinks the the appropriat skill and DC should be, his guess is as good as any you'll find here. ok, probably most guesses here will be terrible

[Aetol]

That would be an Intelligence check with an absurdly high DC... Something like DC 50 with exploding d20. You're basically asking for an entirely new idea to pop up fully formed in his head.

[LordOfCain]

He is asked by another player to figure out a way to inject it and has Int 18 so genius level IQ.

[SangoProduction]

There is no single check for an invention. Perhaps an Int check just to have the idea that something can puncture the skin and, with the same thing that punctured the skin, will insert the fluid.

Then several int checks to come up with designs.

And then many, many craft checks, or int checks to use pre-existing pieces or parts for your prototypes.

It will also need a nature check to know that blood flows in "tubes" within your body, and then another one to identify a good place to stick the "syringe" without making you bleed out.

There's probably a reason that "invention" was not simulated in D&D.

[LordOfCain]

Cleric w/ maxed heal and Ranger with maxed Knowledge (Nature)

[Seclora]

First off, I know a player who would absolutely try to do this, and you have my sympathy.

Inventing the syringe, despite the absolutely foolish intentions, sounds like a pretty great idea, and for the good of the rest of the world, should be allowed. I can see one of two ways this can be done. The first is Wish/Miracle, which is boring so we won't discuss it. The second is skill checks. I would suggest a set of three checks, a heal check and Knowledge(local)[Generally this is the knowledge relevant to checks concerning humanoids, if the PC is not humanoid use a different appropriate Knowledge.] check to research anatomy and circulation to figure out that it would/could work and how to use it. Then you make a craft, Alchemy would work but Glassblowing or even Jewelry could also work, check to actually create the syringe.

At which point he needs to make a heal check to find a vein, a reflex save to cover the wound before the Alchemist's Fire ignites, and a Fort(partial) save to avoid having the con damage he's just inflicted on himself by contaminating his own blood become Con drain. This is a terrible idea, and he should suffer for it, but also succeed cause it's a little awesome.

[LordOfCain]

Indeed I would try this even with all of the above checks. *Enemy slashes at me with a rapier. Burst of flaming blood burns his face, blinding him. I AM [INSERT COOL TITLE HERE]!!!!!!!!

[Oneris]

Even if you can come up with the idea of a vial with an airtight plunger attached to a hollow point needle designed to be inserted under the skin, what are the chances any toolmaker will be able to create one? And how will you know that you must keep it airtight or you'll give yourself an embolism?

[Solaris]

Syringes were invented in Roman times and were used to treat cataracts in the 9th-century Middle East, so they're well within the expected technological capabilities of the standard D&D world. I mean, we're talking about a game that has good telescopes, bells, chainmail, and if you have Stormwrack, cannons - a little bit of glassblowing and whitesmithing is not remotely difficult here.

I can think of a number of ways to make one operating from first principles, with the most obvious being taking a viper's fang and more complex methods including making silver or glass tubes. Plungers optional, and in the case of a transfusion like this not even really necessary; if you set up a gravity feed with the alchemist's fire feeding into a major vein while you open a major artery, the circulatory system and gravity do all the work for you.

'Inventing' one, then, I would say is probably a DC 15 Craft check in a relevant skill, such as whitesmithing or glassmaking, or just killing a viper of sufficient size and boiling one of its fangs. You could probably argue that it's DC 10, but I'm erring more towards "bell" than "iron pot" for the difficulty of making a working needle. The process of transfusion is a trickier one, especially if you're looking to replace blood plasma and return the formed elements of the blood. I'd call that one a DC No, because you need either a selectively permeable membrane or a centrifuge to separate the cells from the plasma. If you're just looking at injecting alchemist's fire or even just a more direct whole-blood transfusion, however, that's a relatively simple operation as I described above. I'd call that a DC 15 operation, roughly equivalent to carrying out long-term care.

And then the patient dies because alchemist's fire is not blood, and even if immune to its pyrogenic and toxic effects it is still not going to be doing what he needs blood to do.

[Deadline]

There is a syringe item in one of the Eberron adventures in Dungeon magazine. I'll have to wait until I can dig through my collection to find out which one. Basically though, it operated as an alternative medium for a potion.

[LordOfCain]

Genius intellect, maxed Knowledge (Local), weapon smith, and alchemist, and maxed (Heal). Not all on the same character but on characters that would agree to help.

[Draconium]

Indeed I would try this even with all of the above checks. *Enemy slashes at me with a rapier. Burst of flaming blood burns his face, blinding him. I AM [INSERT COOL TITLE HERE]!!!!!!!!

Actually, I'm pretty sure there's a spell that will do that already. There's one in the Draconomicon, but it requires you to have a breath weapon. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was another version that did basically the same thing for anybody floating around in a splatbook somewhere.

[Seclora]

And then the patient dies because alchemist's fire is not blood, and even if immune to its pyrogenic and toxic effects it is still not going to be doing what he needs blood to do.

However, with a ring of Sustenance you can hand wave the lack of nutrient distribution. The patient's immune system should suffer observably, and would die horribly if his fire resistance were ever lost.

An Elan with a Ring of Fire Resistance could pull this off pretty well actually.

[Aetol]

The hypodermic hollow-needle syringes did not exist before the 19th century. I doubt you can manufacture that with medieval technology. A glass tube would probably be too large to fit in a vein without doing massive damage.

[theMycon]

I Am Not A Nurse, nor do I play one on TV. That said, even ignoring all the reasons why this shouldn't work (because the idea is awesome), a syringe just isn't the right tool for so big a change-out.

You want both something like an Apheresis (to take the blood away) and an IV drip (to put the alchemist's fire in). You'd have to invent hypodermic needles, which are necessary components of both of these, but that's as close to a syringe as I think you'd get.

For the apheresis If you don't care what happens to the blood as soon as it gets out of your system, it'd be a modification on tools the setting might reasonably have- just a hypodermic needle and a tube might work if you can keep blood pressure up. A moderate DC (mid 20's?) might make sense.

For the IV drip... I have no idea how to make a drip chamber. Once you have it, hook one end to a (Stoppered!) upside-down flask of alchemist's fire, get it running, and put it in your veins and wait for the magic science to happen. A "nearly impossible" DC (30) seems appropriate.

Keep in mind that the DM is entirely within his rights to say that the fire-blood ignites once it hits your heart.

[torrasque666]

Keep in mind that the DM is entirely within his rights to say that the fire-blood ignites once it hits your heart.
Or, ya know, lungs.

[Aetol]

Alchemist's fire ignites on contact. It's basically nitro. What exactly are we trying to achieve here, beside an elaborate form of suicide ?

[Oneris]

Indeed I would try this even with all of the above checks. *Enemy slashes at me with a rapier. Burst of flaming blood burns his face, blinding him. I AM [INSERT COOL TITLE HERE]!!!!!!!!

Just tell him to take Blood Blaze (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-blaze) spell from pathfinder and put it on a continuous magic item.

[LordOfCain]

How to replace plasma: remove 1 pint of blood replacement with Alchemists Fire. Wait one week repeat. Blood is fully replaced after 10 weeks. Continue to maintain high levels by continuing transfusion.

[MyrPsychologist]

I think the check for the syringe would be pretty low. Primitive syringes existed for a very long time, so presuming your character has an understanding of glass or some related process it would be very reasonable to consider that you could make one.

The hard part is inventing blood transfusions. Because that's not supposed to exist until the 1600s.

And that's even presuming you find a way to stabilize the alchemist fire so it doesn't explode on contact. And then put the body in such a state that it can ABSORB the foreign substance and doesn't just kill you (like how injecting alcohol results in alcohol poisoning and kills you with very small doses). And then you need to modify the immune system to not kill the foreign substance and somehow incorporate it.



What exactly is the point of this and why can't we replicate it with spells?

[Keltest]

Just tell him to take Blood Blaze (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-blaze) spell from pathfinder and put it on a continuous magic item.

This guy has 18 int, right? Just tell him that his understanding of Alchemist's Fire says that what he is trying to do is physically impossible, regardless of if he has the tools to do it, because Alchemist's Fire doesn't work that way.

[LordOfCain]

The character is a fighter...

[LordOfCain]

Guy with craft alchemy doesn't have any GOOD spells and is bard.

[Draco_Lord]

Does he really need to? I mean, this things exists. So just modify one of those to be more like a modern syringe then a stabby syringe.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Syringe_Dagger_(3.5e_Equipment)

[MyrPsychologist]

If the entire goal is just to have something defensive to punish people that reacts upon being hit by melee attacks, aren't there actual magical items that do this task and DON'T subject your character to insane amounts of medieval blood transfusions and possibly explodes you into a meaty pulp?

[torrasque666]

Does he really need to? I mean, this things exists. So just modify one of those to be more like a modern syringe then a stabby syringe.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Syringe_Dagger_(3.5e_Equipment)

Begone with yon homebrew!


Note: I will defend danddwiki as a source so long as it has SRD or UA in the title. Otherwise, its homebrew.

[LordOfCain]

Trying to use available resources. Lv. 2/3 party.

[Strigon]

There is a syringe item in one of the Eberron adventures in Dungeon magazine. I'll have to wait until I can dig through my collection to find out which one. Basically though, it operated as an alternative medium for a potion.

There's one in Herregor (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Firearms_and_Other_Equipment_%28Herregor_Supplemen t%29); I found it earlier today.

Anyway, crafting a syringe is not hard. Inventing one isn't either, if you already know what you want it to do.
The thing that he should be using that 18 Int on is how he's going to survive this.

http://i.imgur.com/y6KfmXF.jpg?1

[Eisfalken]

Random DM thoughts, take or leave as you wish...

Syringes kind of already do exist, actually. Poison needle traps are core, and poison rings are in the Dragon Compendium. So yeah, no Int check to invent; they already exist in-game. They aren't exactly precise as modern syringes are, but yes, they do the job.

For this purpose, I'd be looking at a Craft check. Probably say DC 15 for jewelry-crafting (lapidary?) or trapmaking, DC 20 for weaponsmithing, and DC 25 for blacksmithing.

Wait, what? He wants to... inject himself with alchemist's fire, which is combustible in air?!

Okay, sure. Just off the cuff, you'll be making a DC 25 Craft (alchemy) check to get some of a flask into the syringe in the first place. I'd also say if you miss it by 5 or more, you accidentally set off a "dose" of liquid, taking a reduced amount of fire damage. Rolling a 1 means you take damage of however many "doses" are left in the flask.

Next, you are injecting an extremely volatile liquid that may or may not burn your insides or causing other bodily damage. First thing is a Wisdom or Heal check to figure out where your blood vessels are, regardless if you are trying to hit it or not; failure means DM should randomly determine it. Now you need a Will save to avoid screaming and jerking in agony at stabbing yourself with a crude needle filled with liquid freaking fire. After that is a Fort save to avoid Con damage (1d4 per "dose" I think is fine) from the fact that you just deliberately put a toxic substance in your body. Oh, and if they actually inject into their bloodstream, save vs. death and/or other nastiness. Pretty sure the body doesn't react well to this stuff in the heart chamber. (If they start loosing Con from the poisoning, remember that also lowers future saving throws, -1 per 2 Con lost. Also remember, 0 Con means they are dead.)

Don't pull any punches. Enjoy watching them try to make this work.

[Tuvarkz]

Question, you are trying to convince commoners, not scholars or spellcasters. Why not just use magic of sorts or something? Or a SoH-hidden wand. Of course, if you want to convince them you can bleed fire, you could just as easily prick your wrist or something while carrying a sleeve-hidden flask of sorts that you could tear a hole through with the dagger while cutting yourself, carrying Protection from Fire to prevent actually taking damage.

[Knaight]

Syringes kind of already do exist, actually. Poison needle traps are core, and poison rings are in the Dragon Compendium. So yeah, no Int check to invent; they already exist in-game. They aren't exactly precise as modern syringes are, but yes, they do the job.

I'm pretty sure a poison needle trap is just a needle with some poison attached to it, and by that I mean a solid needle. The ideas needed are around to some extent - bellows indicate some knowledge of air flow, the whole idea of a pump is pretty old, and hollowed out injecting things exist in nature. The actual implementation involves some extremely precise metalwork and glass blowing, and probably at least one air embolism before that being a bad idea is discovered. I'd put it at DC 25 all said and done.

Now, the usage is just stupid. There are so many different things that could easily go wrong, and most of them have been largely ignored. A ring of sustenance doesn't help with oxygen transport, PH control, or even fluid property maintenance. Even the better possibilities are liable to involve either slow suffocation, knocking PH out and then dying that way, or the alchemists fire becoming a localized clot that gets pushed around until it causes a stroke or heart attack. Injecting foreign substances into the blood is a terrible, terrible idea.

[Eisfalken]

I'm pretty sure a poison needle trap is just a needle with some poison attached to it, and by that I mean a solid needle. The ideas needed are around to some extent - bellows indicate some knowledge of air flow, the whole idea of a pump is pretty old, and hollowed out injecting things exist in nature. The actual implementation involves some extremely precise metalwork and glass blowing, and probably at least one air embolism before that being a bad idea is discovered. I'd put it at DC 25 all said and done.

Yep, you got me there; for some reason, I wasn't thinking about it much. Honestly, every party I've played in or game I've run, the party always has some kind of "mook" to pull open doors, chests, etc. Undead kobold, or some kind of elemental, or a construct, etc. Only a fool risks being killed with a bad check or save if they can make someone/something else risk it.

But naw, the concept isn't very far-fetched; DC 25 sounds just right. Make it a Craft check, which you can do untrained anyway (so it's just Int bonus if you got no skill points), and... I guess toolmaking as a specialty? Whatever you'd used to Craft artisan's tools I guess.

However, I can kind of see how a syringe might get overlooked. Let's face it: we're in a world where a cleric can cure any (non-magical) disease known, any poison, any disabling injury, etc. If there are syringes, they probably only get looked at by gnomes screwing around with physics; everyone else ponies up the "donation" to the local church and gets that "old-time religion" healing.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Why would he do something like that? I'm sorry, I've just read this whole thread doubled over in laughter, but...why?

And yes, there are much less lethal ways to set yourself on fire in DnD. Like having protection from fire up and flinging yourself headlong into a bunch of fire elementals. Which is honestly not something I ever thought I would say, even in DnD.

I really want to hear the outcome of this though.

I think the syringe thing should be okay though, if crude. I agree with what other people mentioned about DC 25 craft checks, though a heal check or something might be necessary to know about the proper applications of syringes. Beyond "Don't inject liquid fire into your bloodstream!"

[ExLibrisMortis]

And yes, there are much less lethal ways to set yourself on fire in DnD.
Swimming in lava is safer than this. So is dousing yourself in oil and standing in campfires all the time. I mean, the only thing more dangerous is probably that epic monster, the lavawight, that permanently burns away hit points :smalleek:.

[EisenKreutzer]

Won't replacing his blood with something which isn't blood just kill him?

Alternately, if the goal isn't to replace his blood with alchemists fire but just inject him with it, won't that also just kill him?

I mean, injecting yourself with liquid nitrogen won't result in enemies stabbing you getting sprayed with frost damage, it will just kill you.

[LordOfCain]

The goal is to replace the plasma in his blood with alchemists fire by removing half a liter of blood and putting in a half liter of alchemists fire weekly. Thus giving blood cells time to generate in the alchemists fire instead of the plasma. Same effect as plasma. Plasma in the blood is only to aid the transportation of blood cells so sterile water would theoretically work and so would alchemists fire.

[CoffeeIncluded]

The goal is to replace the plasma in his blood with alchemists fire by removing half a liter of blood and putting in a half liter of alchemists fire weekly. Thus giving blood cells time to generate in the alchemists fire instead of the plasma. Same effect as plasma. Plasma in the blood is only to aid the transportation of blood cells so sterile water would theoretically work and so would alchemists fire.

That's...no. That's not how it works at all. It'll just kill you, painfully. By causing horrific damage to all of your blood cells and blood vessels and organs. And did I mention that the horrific damage to your blood cells would also cause kidney damage on its own even before the alchemist fire gets to it? Would you like me to go into exquisite detail about just how badly this would go? I have a clinical pathology exam Friday morning so it would be good practice.

[LordOfCain]

Please explain why plasma is so needed and could not be replaced.

[EisenKreutzer]

The goal is to replace the plasma in his blood with alchemists fire by removing half a liter of blood and putting in a half liter of alchemists fire weekly. Thus giving blood cells time to generate in the alchemists fire instead of the plasma. Same effect as plasma. Plasma in the blood is only to aid the transportation of blood cells so sterile water would theoretically work and so would alchemists fire.

Thats... Thats not how it works.

You can't just replace the plasma with any liquid and expect it to work. Theres a reason blood uses plasma, and not cyanide, gasoline or any other substance, volatile or inert.

If you try what you propose, it will have lethal consequences in 100% of cases.

[LordOfCain]

Also alchemists fire would not burn until exposed to air and would run out of oxygen once burning for a while.

[LordOfCain]

What is so special about plasma? Coconut water could replace it. It is just water + proteins. Also plasma would still be being made so it would just be 50/50 plasma/alchemists fire.

[EisenKreutzer]

What is so special about plasma? Coconut water could replace it. It is just water + proteins.

Precisely. Is alchemists fire water and proteins?

Look, alchemists fire is some sort of substance that, upon contact with air, bursts into flame. Thats literally all we know about it. What on gods green earth makes you think that it could work as blood plasma? If I tooka syringe of some sort of phosporous solution, which is the only thing I can think of with such properties, and injected it into my blood stream, it would not substitute the plasma in my blood.

It would kill me.

What you are proposing is poisoning.

[LordOfCain]

Meh. How long would it take to kill you. Planning to do it on commoners.

[EisenKreutzer]

Meh. How long would it take to kill you. Planning to do it on commoners.

That would depend on what alchemists fire actually is. My guess is it would be fatal in a matter of minutes after the first dose. The very first dose.

Also, it would never be successful as a substitute for blood plasma, and would also never have your intended effect of bleeding burning blood on your enemies. Never.

So you would in effect be murdering each and every one of your test subjects for the entire duration of the experiment.

[LordOfCain]

Even with fire resistance???

[Studoku]

Even if you can come up with the idea of a vial with an airtight plunger attached to a hollow point needle designed to be inserted under the skin, what are the chances any toolmaker will be able to create one? And how will you know that you must keep it airtight or you'll give yourself an embolism?

It needs to be airtight anyway or the alchemist's fire in will ignite.

[EisenKreutzer]

Even with fire resistance???

Even with fire resistance. It's not the fire effect that will kill you. The body is not designed to have things that are not blood in it's circulatory system. The alchemists fire would kill the blood cells and cause major damage to internal organs. Major, major damage.

Resistance or immunity to poisoning could probably save you from dying from the injection. It's always hard to tell when magic is involved.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Please explain why plasma is so needed and could not be replaced.


What is so special about plasma? Coconut water could replace it. It is just water + proteins. Also plasma would still be being made so it would just be 50/50 plasma/alchemists fire.

No it could not.

First of all, plasma is not just water and proteins but water and proteins at a very specific concentration. Too high a protein concentration and all the water gets sucked out of the red blood cells. Too low a protein concentration and water flows into red blood cells, causing them to burst. No they cannot make new water channels or pumps or whatever to alter water concentrations. They don't have the ribosomes to make new protein pumps.

Furthermore, the proteins in blood are very specific. They transport nutrients. They provide signaling not only to blood cells, but float around to target other organs and tissues in the body (hormones travel in blood). There are clotting factors in blood. There are signals on the inside of blood vessels that tell some types of white blood cells to leave the blood and go to a site of inflammation or infection. And that's just the very start of what plasma does, and is but a sampling of what I have learned in one month of one clinical pathology class in my first year at veterinary school.

And now what will the fire do?! Horrible horrible things, and I have no idea because I don't know what's in there! But at the very least it'll do horrific damage to blood cells. It could cause red blood cells to burst and spew their contents everywhere, causing immediate anemia and then kidney damage when the blood gets filtered through the kidneys and the hemoglobin now floating around in the blood goes through your kidneys and into your urine. It'll probably do horrific things to white blood cells, destroying any ability to fight infections. It could cause blood vessels to burst, causing severe hemorrhage (bleeding). And those are just the blood vessels! If it gets into bone marrow then bam, you've just destroyed any attempts to make new blood cells as thoroughly as if you walked up next to the Chernobyl reactor. And what about organs? I mentioned earlier that the kidney filters blood. This would cause immediate permanent kidney damage. Have you ever seen someone die from kidney failure? It's not pleasant. What about your liver? Your liver filters blood too! This would probably destroy your liver! And have you seen someone die from liver failure? That's even worse! Spleen? Lymph nodes? They'll be utterly shredded! Lungs? You'll burn out your lungs! And the alveoli are so thin that I bet the alchemist fire would CATCH FIRE in your lungs during gas exchange, where OXYGEN crosses over into the capillaries through a membrane two flattened cells and a sliver of extracellular matrix thick, literally burning you from the inside out! And what would it do to your heart, which is so dependent on electrical signals for coordinated contraction? What would it do to your brain? The rest of you?

Horrible things. You will die. And if you can't for some reason then the pain will be so that you would wish you could.


Meh. How long would it take to kill you. Planning to do it on commoners.

Minutes, potentially, and that's horrible.

[LordOfCain]

What if the alchemist's fire wasn't toxic? What would be in it to make it toxic? It is like a potion of burning hands...

[EisenKreutzer]

What if the alchemist's fire wasn't toxic? What would be in it to make it toxic? It is like a potion of burning hands...

Alchemists fire is not like a potion, it's not actually a spell effect in a bottle. It's an alchemical item, which means it's a chemically reactive substance. So the answer to your question is: The alchemists fire is what makes it toxic.

But let's not stop there, let's involve magic. What if the alchemists fire was not an alchemical item, but a spell contained in water?
Well, thats not good either. Blood plasma is a very specific thing. The proteins in it have to be just right, at just the right balance and concentration for it to work as plasma.
Even if alchemists fire was just magical water, it couldn't serve as blood plasma.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Eisenkreutzer knows exactly what he's talking about. You can see this in cows sometimes, if the water freezes then thaws and they drink too much of it too fast because they're so thirsty (and a cow can drink gallons and gallons of water in a day). The extra water causes the red blood cells to be more concentrated than the blood, so water flows into the red blood cells from the vessels to try and restore the concentration gradient, and this causes the cells to swell and burst. So now the cows are anemic because their red blood cells burst.

[LordOfCain]

But if it was a spell contained in water, would the subject die immediately or die as the plasma was diluted or take Con damage or what???

[EisenKreutzer]

But if it was a spell contained in water, would the subject die immediately or die as the plasma was diluted or take Con damage or what???

There are no rules for injecting yourself or others with water in D&D or Pathfinder that I am aware of. Your guess is as good as mine.

Unless the water is absolutely sterile, though, the risk of infection alone would be catastrophic. So you would need to magically ensure that the water is pure. I'm not sure if Purify Food and Water does that. It makes water drinkable, but thats not the same as sterile.

Injecting yourself with water every day is also a very, very bad idea.

[LordOfCain]

Drinking water is cleaner than regular water so I assume with magic it MIGHT get near the cleanliness of that of modern drinking water? :smallredface:

[EisenKreutzer]

Drinking water is cleaner than regular water so I assume with magic it MIGHT get near the cleanliness of that of modern drinking water? :smallredface:

Oh, I fully expect the spell to make the water more than clean enough for drinking.

But thats not the same as sterile water for medical purposes. You could possibly make water sterile by casting Circle of Death or something similiar to kill off all germs, which in conjunction with Purify Food and Water could potentially make the water sterile.

This is assuming, of course, that a "potion of alchemists fire" (which doesn't even exist) contains nothing but water and magic.

Even then, the only thing you will accomplish is to make yourself anemic as you dilute your blood and kill red blood cells. It will still kill you, only more slowly.

[Seclora]

But if it was a spell contained in water, would the subject die immediately or die as the plasma was diluted or take Con damage or what???

That sounds like injecting a potion, which would cause you to suffer the effects of the potion. Any potion capable of dealing fire damage would deal it to you.


And for the record, testing new procedures on unwilling test subjects, or test subjects who were coerced or mislead, is an evil act. Like most evil acts performed on random commoners I must say first, tsk tsk, and then, do you want Adventurers? Because that's how you get adventurers. Seriously, everytime you perform an action that sounds like a plot hook some schmuck and his 1d4 friends start on a journey to stop you. Don't abuse the commoners people.

[LordOfCain]

AH!!! But this is just a very drawn out power play. With a healbot with max ranks in heal to heal me once I get the commoners to worship me for the son of Pelor I am pretending to be.

[EisenKreutzer]

AH!!! But this is just a very drawn out power play. With a healbot with max ranks in heal to heal me once I get the commoners to worship me for the son of Pelor I am pretending to be.

Dude... Illusion spells. All you need is illusion spells. If you aren't playing a spellcaster, just hire one to cast a couple of illusion spells on you.

[LordOfCain]

I will be taking beggars, feeding them striped toadstool soup, giving them 2d4 gold pieces, convincing them I am the son of Pelor, and giving them the amazing power of fireblood. Ignore the fact that striped toadstools are poison.

[EisenKreutzer]

I will be taking beggars, feeding them striped toadstool soup, giving them 2d4 gold pieces, convincing them I am the son of Pelor, and giving them the amazing power of fireblood. Ignore the fact that striped toadstools are poison.

What you will actually be doing is kidnapping helpless innocents and murdering them by injecting them with poison.

[LordOfCain]

By giving them powers beyond their wildest dreams, giving them money, and they will CHOOSE to go with me. If they fail their Sense Motive check that is not my fault. :smallamused:

[EisenKreutzer]

By giving them powers beyond their wildest dreams, giving them money, and they will CHOOSE to go with me. If they fail their Sense Motive check that is not my fault. :smallamused:

The idea is good (giving people powers to convince them you are a divine being), but the actual plan is terrible. Injecting someone with alchemists fire will not give them fire blood, it will just kill them horribly and painfully.

[zergling.exe]

I'm just here to suggest that replacing your blood wholesale is actually possible. There is at least one graft (Healing Blood) that does this. It's in Lords of Madness and is a Silithar graft. Take the principle of the that and instead of fast healing give some kind of flammable blood, probably fire resistance as well.

This will likely also be prohibitively expensive. Upwards of 20k gp easily.

[Strigon]

I'm not sure how much simpler this can be made.
Under no circumstances will this plan work. Perhaps if you did manage to replace all your blood with alchemists fire, then yes, attacking you might well deal fire damage if you broke the skin.
But long, long long before that mystical power was imparted to you, you would be granted the power of death.

The only possible way you might survive is if each and every participant in this terrible, terrible plan you call an experiment were given a blessing by a deity that allowed them to survive.
The human body, according to all laws of natural science, simply cannot survive any variation of this plan; neither could Dwarves, Elves, Halflings, Orcs, or any other creature.
Magical life support - and very powerful magical life support, at that - is the only possible way this might work.

[EisenKreutzer]

I'm just here to suggest that replacing your blood wholesale is actually possible. There is at least one graft (Healing Blood) that does this. It's in Lords of Madness and is a Silithar graft. Take the principle of the that and instead of fast healing give some kind of flammable blood, probably fire resistance as well.

This will likely also be prohibitively expensive. Upwards of 20k gp easily.

This idea I can get behind. Anchor it in the rules somehow, and abandon the alchemists fire idea. If the GM allows it, this could make the plan work.

[LordOfCain]

A ring of sustenance provides sufficient nourishment which could include anything needed by blood.

[EisenKreutzer]

A ring of sustenance provides sufficient nourishment which could include anything needed by blood.

You would still suffer massive organ failure fom the chemicals.

Even if there existed some potion made of sterile water you could inject, you would still have to deal with the anemia.

Honestly, your best bet is to abandon the alchemists fire idea, which requires so many convoluted and contrived steps to make even remotely viable, and instead look at the graft rules and homebrew a blood graft that gives some kind of fire effect.

[LordOfCain]

Commoners Don't need organs. >:)

[Strigon]

Commoners Don't need organs. >:)

I'd disagree with you there, but I think the bigger issue here is the fact that they don't particularly need fire blood, either :smalltongue:

[Eisfalken]

What would be a good RAW way to pass this off to a DM with no medical background.

Drug you DM. I'm serious. No DM I know is going to let you do this. RAW or not.

Oh, and he doesn't need to have a medical degree. See, he ALSO has the internet, just like you do.

So... yeah.

You lose.

[LordOfCain]

Well what would be the best way to give commoner physical powers barring costs above 10 go per person.

[Strigon]

Oh, and he doesn't need to have a medical degree. See, he ALSO has the internet common sense, just like you do try very hard to circumvent.


Fixed that for ya.

Edit:

Costs below 10 GP?
Pay for a few rounds of beers; you now have the powers of drunkenness and loyalty. That's about all you'll get for 10 GP each.

[LordOfCain]

Currently using free striped mushrooms, a few go for loyalty and a few go from crafted alchemists Fire.

[Eisfalken]

Well what would be the best way to give commoner physical powers barring costs above 10 go per person.

None. Magic (aka psionics, divine power, etc.) beats EVERYTHING mundane.

Because... it's D&D.

[LordOfCain]

Physical or magical powers edited.

[LordOfCain]

Striped TOADSTOOL sorry. Are to make the commoners sense motive go down. They reduce Wow.

[nyjastul69]

Currently using free striped mushrooms, a few go for loyalty and a few go from crafted alchemists Fire.

What are striped mushrooms and how do they fit into this plan?

[Eisfalken]

Physical or magical powers edited.

On 10 gp? No.

[LordOfCain]

What is the lowest price to enhance commoners.

[Eisfalken]

What is the lowest price to enhance commoners.

I think this is what you need to be reading...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Z9NJIs751Af3i0IEIJwCkIp9H9YFiZYZ7u-wmYVaheI/edit?pli=1

[LordOfCain]

Thanks everyone. I do not need anymore help. All of you see great.

[Solaris]

EDIT: Posted before I saw the most recent reply. Leaving it up 'cause science!


However, with a ring of Sustenance you can hand wave the lack of nutrient distribution. The patient's immune system should suffer observably, and would die horribly if his fire resistance were ever lost.

An Elan with a Ring of Fire Resistance could pull this off pretty well actually.

Nutrient distribution is the least of our concerns. Oxygen and carbon dioxide balance are somewhere near the bottom (which a ring of sustenance won't help with), because D&D has ways to get around breathing. Unless alchemist's fire is a very specific pH (because, you see, plasma has buffer proteins in it that work to prevent some lethal pH shifts), death will follow swiftly on that alone. Even if it is pH 7.4, a little bit of exertion ('cause of carbonic and lactic acid) will result in a wildly runaway metabolic acidosis... followed shortly by death. That's assuming the body's somehow able to maintain homeostasis in the absence of hemoglobin, being as there's not gonna be a whole lot of CO2 carried in the bloodstream and thus the body's not gonna know how much it will have to breathe. This causes respiratory acidosis. Unless the alchemist's fire has a very specific tonicity, the erythrocytes (fancy term for red blood cells) will either lyse (like over-filled water balloons), filling the bloodstream with loose proteins and causing hemolytic anemia due to those proteins being kinda vital for continued survival, or shrink down from water loss, leaving them look like their cytoskeletons have been shrink-wrapped on them, robbing them of their flexibility and clogging capillaries, leading to blood clots, which will have some long-term consequences (they start off with bruising and skin dying off, and go downhill from there).
If you remove the whole blood and try to replace it with alchemist's fire, you don't need to worry about the RBCs being destroyed because they're not there. If you have some means of working around the loss of oxygen/carbon dioxide carrying capacity, that's probably going to be one of the least bad ideas involved with this whole plan. I won't call it a good idea, mind, because RBCs are useful for helping to form blood clots (even assuming the blood clotting factors are somehow transplanted into the alchemist's fire without being denatured). That... might be a moot point, though, being as contact with the outside air will cause the erstwhile fluid to catch fire, and thus every little papercut and nick is going to be a continuously burning problem that will just set clotting factors on fire.
Although the lymphatic vessels play a major role in the immune system's function, the lymphatic system's function is intrinsically tied to blood plasma. Lymph fluid is, after all, just the blood plasma exudate that's escaped the bloodstream. I think the best-case scenario here is that the lymph vessels collapse due to the alchemist's fire being unable to escape through capillaries, because otherwise it'll be somewhere around a full-blown HIV infection in its impact on the immune system (only worse, because the HIV only affects certain T lymphocytes, whereas the alchemist's fire will be affecting everything).
It would also be hilarious to watch what happens when this alchemist's fire reaches the lungs. I'm betting he gets set on fire, starting with the lungs and heart. It'll be a neat cascade effect, too, as the burning exposes new flesh and the heat causes the bodily fluids to boil, creating more points of origin for the flames.

In short, you're not just going to need to worry about nutrients and lack of gas exchange. You're going to need to worry about infection, your bloodstream filling with acid, your body being incapable of maintaining homeostasis due to pH, O2/CO2, and hormonal imbalance, your body having the Devil's own time fighting infection, being unable to stop bleeding, and of course the fact that the alchemical substances are probably toxic in and of themselves even without their impact on pH and the fact that they're edging out a lot of proteins the body needs to survive.
Don't let the sustaining magic lapse, even for a moment. D&D's rules for suffocation assume a lungful of air. With this setup, death will follow in seconds due to there being nothing but magic sustaining the cells as the oxygen will have long since departed.


The hypodermic hollow-needle syringes did not exist before the 19th century. I doubt you can manufacture that with medieval technology. A glass tube would probably be too large to fit in a vein without doing massive damage.

More massive than we're doing with the alchemist's fire?

Regardless, hollow needles did exist well before the nineteenth century. There's evidence of them dating back to Antiquity. Water clocks and telescopes both did not exist until well after hypodermic syringes. Leaving aside injectors in Eberron, a needle you can inject things with is well within the capabilities of even mundane D&D-setting craftsmen. They can, after all, produce silver foil and roll it to form a cylinder.


Drinking water is cleaner than regular water so I assume with magic it MIGHT get near the cleanliness of that of modern drinking water? :smallredface:

If you've ever kept fish and watched them get sick a lot, you'd know how sterile modern drinking water isn't.
Suffice to say that even the standards of modern drinking water are positively septic compared to the sort of saline solutions you'd actually want to inject into your bloodstream.

You want to make this work? Get yourself turned into some sort of undead, make friends with a guy who can cast gentle repose so you don't get all cadaverriffic, and inject all the alchemist's fire you can stand into your bloodstream while you're underwater.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Solaris also has everything exactly, perfectly right. And you gave much more detail than I did. I like it. And I also like that Google doc.

[Seclora]

Nutrient distribution is the least of our concerns. Oxygen and carbon dioxide balance are somewhere near the bottom (which a ring of sustenance won't help with), because D&D has ways to get around breathing. Unless alchemist's fire is a very specific pH (because, you see, plasma has buffer proteins in it that work to prevent some lethal pH shifts), death will follow swiftly on that alone. Even if it is pH 7.4, a little bit of exertion ('cause of carbonic and lactic acid) will result in a wildly runaway metabolic acidosis... followed shortly by death. That's assuming the body's somehow able to maintain homeostasis in the absence of hemoglobin, being as there's not gonna be a whole lot of CO2 carried in the bloodstream and thus the body's not gonna know how much it will have to breathe. This causes respiratory acidosis. Unless the alchemist's fire has a very specific tonicity, the erythrocytes (fancy term for red blood cells) will either lyse (like over-filled water balloons), filling the bloodstream with loose proteins and causing hemolytic anemia due to those proteins being kinda vital for continued survival, or shrink down from water loss, leaving them look like their cytoskeletons have been shrink-wrapped on them, robbing them of their flexibility and clogging capillaries, leading to blood clots, which will have some long-term consequences (they start off with bruising and skin dying off, and go downhill from there).
If you remove the whole blood and try to replace it with alchemist's fire, you don't need to worry about the RBCs being destroyed because they're not there. If you have some means of working around the loss of oxygen/carbon dioxide carrying capacity, that's probably going to be one of the least bad ideas involved with this whole plan. I won't call it a good idea, mind, because RBCs are useful for helping to form blood clots (even assuming the blood clotting factors are somehow transplanted into the alchemist's fire without being denatured). That... might be a moot point, though, being as contact with the outside air will cause the erstwhile fluid to catch fire, and thus every little papercut and nick is going to be a continuously burning problem that will just set clotting factors on fire.
Although the lymphatic vessels play a major role in the immune system's function, the lymphatic system's function is intrinsically tied to blood plasma. Lymph fluid is, after all, just the blood plasma exudate that's escaped the bloodstream. I think the best-case scenario here is that the lymph vessels collapse due to the alchemist's fire being unable to escape through capillaries, because otherwise it'll be somewhere around a full-blown HIV infection in its impact on the immune system (only worse, because the HIV only affects certain T lymphocytes, whereas the alchemist's fire will be affecting everything).
It would also be hilarious to watch what happens when this alchemist's fire reaches the lungs. I'm betting he gets set on fire, starting with the lungs and heart. It'll be a neat cascade effect, too, as the burning exposes new flesh and the heat causes the bodily fluids to boil, creating more points of origin for the flames.

In short, you're not just going to need to worry about nutrients and lack of gas exchange. You're going to need to worry about infection, your bloodstream filling with acid, your body being incapable of maintaining homeostasis due to pH, O2/CO2, and hormonal imbalance, your body having the Devil's own time fighting infection, being unable to stop bleeding, and of course the fact that the alchemical substances are probably toxic in and of themselves even without their impact on pH and the fact that they're edging out a lot of proteins the body needs to survive.
Don't let the sustaining magic lapse, even for a moment. D&D's rules for suffocation assume a lungful of air. With this setup, death will follow in seconds due to there being nothing but magic sustaining the cells as the oxygen will have long since departed.



Right, so the thing about Elans is that they have a supernatural ability to burn power points for sustenance. In addition, as Aberrations they're already, well, not normal. I figure the mandatory power point tax covers any marginal benefits of bleeding fire. Disease is a different issue, and honestly I have no response but to take sufficient levels in Monk or Paladin so as to be immune. I don't know, scientifically, how that works, but gameplay mechanics at least would indicate that it would.


Again, I don't advise doing this, either from a gameplay approach or a practical one. I strongly advise against testing it on another being, whether you mislead, coerced, drugged, paid, or otherwise persuaded them to do so. And if I were GMing, the description of the PC's death would be horrific and lengthy. I wouldn't even feel guilty; I didn't make them fail their Wisdom check. :smalltongue:

[EisenKreutzer]

Solaris said everything I said, except with science. I approve.

[Alex12]

Right, so the thing about Elans is that they have a supernatural ability to burn power points for sustenance. In addition, as Aberrations they're already, well, not normal. I figure the mandatory power point tax covers any marginal benefits of bleeding fire. Disease is a different issue, and honestly I have no response but to take sufficient levels in Monk or Paladin so as to be immune. I don't know, scientifically, how that works, but gameplay mechanics at least would indicate that it would.


Again, I don't advise doing this, either from a gameplay approach or a practical one. I strongly advise against testing it on another being, whether you mislead, coerced, drugged, paid, or otherwise persuaded them to do so. And if I were GMing, the description of the PC's death would be horrific and lengthy. I wouldn't even feel guilty; I didn't make them fail their Wisdom check. :smalltongue:

Elan sustenance allows them to go without food and water. It does not allow them to go without air. There actually aren't a whole lot of ways (aside from being undead or a construct) to truly do without oxygen to the level that would be required by, for all intents and purposes, not having any red blood cells. And if you did have red blood cells, that oxygen would probably be enough to ignite the alchemist's fire, since it ignites on contact with air and the most likely trigger for that is oxygen.
Actually, let's approach this from a different angle. While IV fluid is a thing, and apparently coconut water has been used successfully as a substitute IV fluid in emergencies (http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2014/12/09/4143229.htm), I suspect that a liquid that bursts into flame on contact with air is probably more akin to gasoline than it is to Lactated Ringer's or 0.9% Sodium Chloride. Let's look at the possible effects of injecting gasoline into your veins.
Short version is you probably die.
Longer version: according to the US Department of Health and Human Services, who put together a comprehensive study of gasoline's effects (http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp72.pdf) and can probably be trusted to have some idea what they're talking about, drinking 12 ounces of gasoline can definitely kill you, and lesser amounts can still mess you up bad. And that's drinking it, which I assure you is much less horrifyingly dangerous than injecting it into your veins. Furthermore, I located a case study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18072172) of a med school student who attempted to commit suicide by injecting gasoline intravenously. He injected 10 milliliters of gasoline intravenously. For perspective, a teaspoon is 5ml, and a tablespoon is 15. He almost died, and spent 12 days in intensive care. Without access to modern medicine (or, in a D&D setting, high-grade healing magic) he would have definitely died. Now, I'm not saying that alchemist's fire is identical to gasoline, but I think given the known properties of the stuff, it's probably a good starting point, and if anything, alchemist's fire is almost certainly more dangerous in every way.

Actually, the Necropolitan template (from Libris Mortis) would probably be your best option here, for a variety of reasons. As undead, necropolitans are immune to most of the assorted issues (and there are many) involved with removing one of the major components of blood, since for them blood is strictly optional anyway. You'd still have some issues (like stopping a cut from triggering a chain reaction that burns away all your alchemist's fire and also you in one burst) but that's comparatively minor. You've also got storage space in the abdomen, since you could probably remove most of the squishy organs there that aren't part of the GI tube (since you probably need that for potions) or your lungs (since you probably need to squeeze air past your vocal cords to talk properly). But liver, kidneys, heart, spleen, pretty much everything in that body cavity can probably be removed. You might even be able to shorten up your intestines a fair bit, since you're not really using them for anything except potion transport. I would strongly recommend that if you do this you have a Dread Necromancer on hand to keep your hp topped up during the removal process, though.