Complexity Rating of Classes?

[alchemyprime]

So as some of the playground knows, I run an afterschool program for kids 10 - 17, where we play Pathfinder. I'm slowly introducing more classes to them, but I want to make the kids understand what the learning curve for each class would be.

I used to have it set up as "Basic" and "Advanced" but I realized a problemma - I had Druid as Basic and Summoner as Advanced, and they're about the same level of complexity!

So I have a new question, playgrounders, if you so wish to aid me.

If you can, tell me how you'd judge the complexity of the following classes, from 1 to 5 (1 being super duper easy with an obvious FoO strategy that stays in play for a long time, 5 being something you need to know multiple ways rules work to do well.) Now, I'm not talking for a super optimized "kill the tarrasque" games - I mean during play it can be rather streamlined for a 1 (something like a monk for a few levels or a rogue) while the "do anythings with magic" would be higher. I'm fairly certain Druid and Summoner are our benchmark for 5.

Classes:

Alchemist
Barbarian
Bard
Cavalier
Cleric
Dread
Druid
Fighter (With Stamina Rules)
Gunslinger
Inquisitor
Investigator
Magus
Monk
Oracle
Paladin
Psion
Psychic Warrior
Ranger
Rogue
Slayer
Sorcerer
Soulknife
Summoner
Wilder
Witch
Wizard


Thanks in advance!

[Jormengand]

Easy way of doing it:

- Any nonfighter nonmonk noncaster is 1.
- Any prepared divine is 2.
- Anything not in another list is 3.
- Any spontaneous caster or manifester is 4.
- Fighter is 5 and monk is 5.

Reasoning: Rogue just has to choose things and go kill; there aren't a great deal of terrible choices (relative to the usefulness of the others). Prepared divine casters have to deal with choosing spells, but they can re-choose them. Plus "Summon or turn into a bear" and "Spontaneously heal my allies" are always options. Wizards need to go re-learn them, rather than just praying in the morning. Sorcerers, bards and inquisitors are stuck with them, so are psychic characters. Fighter and monk are not only stuck with their abilities, but there is a whole bucketload of feats... and most of them are terrible. Similarly, there's not a lot of monk builds that actually, y'know, work.

[Tuvarkz]

Considering how badly tuned they are, you might as well scrap the non-spellcasting Paizo martials, since they are filled with trap options and can be easily left behind by the 6/9 spellcasters and the 9th tier ones completely wipe the floor with them.
The semi-competitive barbarian build I've seen is virtually impossible to RP in a working campaign, and the fighter one is basically "Full Attack if possible, UMD wands and scrolls otherwise".
EDIT: For reference, the fighter build is here (Language is heavily not-PC, for those that would have such sensitivities):
https://docs.google.com/document/d/15YKqNTJJVOwI3yLUTHlMS43KBoE9lbLYcQQ6W-0KLeE/edit

[Ssalarn]

I feel like complexity really has two fronts; play, and ease of creation. How easy a class is to play at the table may not be the same as how hard it is to put together first, so I've listed both alongside your selected classes.


Classes:

Alchemist Play: 3 Creation: 4
Barbarian Play: 1 Creation: 1
Bard Play: 2 Creation: 3
Cavalier Play: 4 Creation: 4
Cleric Play: 3 Creation: 3
Dread Play: 3 Creation: 3
Druid Play: 2 Creation: 5
Stamina Fighter Play: 2 Creation: 3
Gunslinger Play: 3 Creation: 2
Inquisitor Play: 3 Creation: 3
Investigator Play: 2 Creation: 2
Magus Play: 4 Creation: 2
Monk Play: 2 Creation: 4
Oracle Play: 2 Creation: 4
Paladin Play: 2 Creation: 2
Psion Play: 3 Creation: 3
Psychic Warrior Play: 3 Creation: 3
Ranger Play: 2 Creation: 2
Rogue Play: 2 Creation: 4
Slayer Play: 2 Creation: 2
Sorcerer Play: 3 Creation: 3
Soulknife Play: 1 Creation: 2
Summoner Play: 4 Creation: 5
Wilder Play: 2 Creation: 4
Witch Play: 2 Creation: 3
Wizard Play: 3 Creation: 5

[CockroachTeaParty]

Yeah, Cavalier is a weird one. Non-caster, basically 100% martial, but surprisingly complex:

-Horse animal companion that improves as you level.

-Mounted combat rules

-Teamwork feats

-Fiddly bonuses, both for your challenges and your banner providing benefits for your allies.

-Code of conduct dictated by your order.

[Ssalarn]

Yeah, Cavalier is a weird one. Non-caster, basically 100% martial, but surprisingly complex:

-Horse animal companion that improves as you level.

-Mounted combat rules

-Teamwork feats

-Fiddly bonuses, both for your challenges and your banner providing benefits for your allies.

-Code of conduct dictated by your order.

I love the Cavalier, but even I have to admit you get 1/2 as much for doing 2x the work a lot of the time.

[alchemyprime]

I feel like complexity really has two fronts; play, and ease of creation. How easy a class is to play at the table may not be the same as how hard it is to put together first, so I've listed both alongside your selected classes.


Classes:

Alchemist Play: 3 Creation: 4
Barbarian Play: 1 Creation: 1
Bard Play: 2 Creation: 3
Cavalier Play: 4 Creation: 4
Cleric Play: 3 Creation: 3
Dread Play: 3 Creation: 3
Druid Play: 2 Creation: 5
Stamina Fighter Play: 2 Creation: 3
Gunslinger Play: 3 Creation: 2
Inquisitor Play: 3 Creation: 3
Investigator Play: 2 Creation: 2
Magus Play: 4 Creation: 2
Monk Play: 2 Creation: 4
Oracle Play: 2 Creation: 4
Paladin Play: 2 Creation: 2
Psion Play: 3 Creation: 3
Psychic Warrior Play: 3 Creation: 3
Ranger Play: 2 Creation: 2
Rogue Play: 2 Creation: 4
Slayer Play: 2 Creation: 2
Sorcerer Play: 3 Creation: 3
Soulknife Play: 1 Creation: 2
Summoner Play: 4 Creation: 5
Wilder Play: 2 Creation: 4
Witch Play: 2 Creation: 3
Wizard Play: 3 Creation: 5


This is definitely what I was looking for. But what would I list them as? "Creation Complexity" and "Play Complexity"? That may work, actually.

[Ssalarn]

This is definitely what I was looking for. But what would I list them as? "Creation Complexity" and "Play Complexity"? That may work, actually.

Yeah, that's what I'd go with.

[grarrrg]

Barbarian Play: 1 Creation: 1


me am smash good.

[Thanatosia]

Sorcerer Play: 3 Creation: 3
Wizard Play: 3 Creation: 5
I would put Sorcerer at Play: 3 Creation 5 and Wizard at Play 5 Creation 3.

Sorcerers are fairly strait forward to play, you have limited spell options so there isn't usually a lot of decisions to make, while wizards tend to have more diverse options, or niche and situational spells, and the fact that they can't just recast a spell once used means their casting decisions during play are much more meaningful - and easier to mess up by blowing a spell you need later too early.

But choosing spells KNOWN for Sorcerers is nightmarishly complex and agonizing... compaired to a Wizard who is allowed errors as soon as he has the means to add spells to his spellbook, you reaaaaaaaaly have to make every choice count. I never take longer making a character then when I'm deciding what spells to know on a class with a constrained but selected spells-known list like Sorcerers or Favored soul; and misteps are much more punishing then a wizard choosing the wrong spells.

[Nyaa]

But choosing spells KNOWN for Sorcerers is nightmarishly complex and agonizing

Given that's an afterschool program for kids, I'd allow spontaneous casters/manifesters/initiators to switch all their known spells/powers/maneuvers every level, NWN style. Or conveniently have high-level psion(s) with psychic reformation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/p/psychic-reformation) readily available.

[Kurald Galain]

In terms of easiness to play, I'd say:
(1) You just attack each turn, that's it. For example, barbarian. A rogue or fighter can also be built to be very easy to play.
(2) Attack with tweaks (e.g. inquisitor who can select a judgment, or any pet class).
(3) Secondary caster (e.g. melee bard; you have a lot of spells but you can always default to attacking if you don't know what else to do)
(4) Primary caster (yeah, you have to select a spell each turn, that's not so easy).
(5) Summoner and summon-focused druid.
I'm not sure why cavalier is so hard? Sure, it's fiddly, but you can't go wrong with it so much. Magus is tricky like a prime caster, but not as hard as a summoning class.

In terms of easiness to build,
(1) It builds itself, e.g. barbarian.
(2) Full-list casters (cleric, druid) or spellbook casters (wizard) are actually pretty easy since you can switch your spells each day and your other choices aren't that important.
(3) Any class with an in-class list of options that needs cherrypicking, like rogue tricks, magus arcana, and so forth.
(4) All spontaneous casters are hard to build, including sorcerer, bard, oracle, and inquisitor.
(5) In the rare case that a class falls in both category 3 and 4, notably the summoner.

[noob]

"Wizard Play: 3 Creation: 5"
I rather think the creation is really easy:
1:No matter the feats you choose you will not be useless.
2:When you mess up on initial spell choice you can just grab the scrolls the team use and learn them or buy some spells.
3:If you only cast blasting spells you will not be the worst build at fighting(notably thanks to AOE and stuff of this kind) and you can decide the next day to cast teleport or fabricate if you know you will need it.
And playing it is easy if you do not try being super smart.
While if you are as much carefree with a barbarian you die and are not useful.

[alchemyprime]

Given that's an afterschool program for kids, I'd allow spontaneous casters/manifesters/initiators to switch all their known spells/powers/maneuvers every level, NWN style. Or conveniently have high-level psion(s) with psychic reformation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/p/psychic-reformation) readily available.

That is a great idea - I think I'll implement that (we already had an issue with a Draconic Sorcerer picking Mage Armor at 1st. I let him just get two extra 1st levels at 3rd)