Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

[ErrantX]

The Path of War continues onward!

Within the pages of this tome, your options for martial characters more than double! Within Path of War Expanded you will find more maneuvers, stances, and feats for your existing martial disciples as well as a host of new options! There are new classes, archetypes, martial traditions, and even the new class template that provides a way to use a single archetype for different character classes.

Within Path of War Expanded, you will find:


Three new base classes, from the ill-omened harbinger, to the psychic zealot, and finally the arcane mystic who all mix supernatural elements into their martial combat styles.
Nine new martial disciplines
A host of archetypes for the three classes from Path of War and the three new classes
Martial archetypes for core classes
Class templates, which provides archetypes that work across multiple classes
Martial style feats
More martial traditions


And new and optional rules and clarifications to martial combat that will take your martial characters to a whole new level!
Come and enjoy the spoils of battle with Path of War Expanded!

Table of Contents for the project:

- The Harbinger (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HCtvRArIRPjcClMf5KVJrDBrkV_gBoaVFuvwA4CmCew/edit?usp=sharing), a melee control class that uses superior mobility and crippling status effects to command the battlefield. These warriors understand grief and anger on a personal level and translate that understanding into deadly curses and reality-warping swordplay. Harbinger also has two archetypes (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EsgZxSmnr9mwAeZRxHdxZSAS95QeUI0RWQ3F7nm4j38/edit?usp=sharing) available in beta. The Crimson Countess emphasizes the Claim mechanic to take her rage out on her victims, while the Ravenlord creates a shadowy servant that aids him in battle. A new archetype, the Bleak Emissary (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tWC_OmiI7QPgDccfQ9m908-537ee4eW2MboJ7suxO5M/edit?usp=sharing), is available for beta testing. The Omen Rider (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iKpNQL2Ou5CA_i0h3p4hEN_xirU4n1ppbKNdsoPtisA/edit?usp=sharing) archetype, a mounted warrior archetype, is available for beta testing. Harbinger introduces two new disciplines: Cursed Razor and Shattered Mirror

- The Zealot (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-cjJab5iFO8kTSYuIJnqyLa8QnYrH04WhSG1AwvsN28/edit?usp=sharing), a psionic guardian who leads his party into battle with the power of his passions and their own collective bond. These psionic initiators augment their maneuvers with power points and aid their party members with telepathy. Zealot introduces the Eternal Guardian and Sleeping Goddess disciplines. Zealot archetypes are found within this document.

- The Mystic (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AtQz8XFrmiBFJxjcatyiodJjo3FebF-WzFOh3XfEDtQ/edit?usp=sharing), a melee support class that uses unstable arcane energies to unleash beneficial magic on his allies and scourge his enemies with the power of the elements. Mystics are founts of energy that they vent through martial discipline and intuition rather than through spells. Mystic will introduce the Elemental Flux and Riven Hourglass disciplines. Mystic archetypes are found at the bottom of the document.

But wait, there's more!

- Dreamscarred Press is happy to announce Class Templates, archetypes that can be applied to more than one class. Class Templates represent ideas too broad for a single-class archetype, letting you create very different versions of the same somewhat broad idea. The three introduced in Path of War Expanded are the Bushi, Privateer, and Hussar (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hHsiSKoL2nR4oWgzPKQwXfqYENuNkDmBiX323SlTPfc/edit?usp=sharing), for all of your samurai, pirate, and mounted warrior needs. At the end of the document you'll find the Mithral Current discipline as well.

Discipline List! (in no particular order)

- The Eternal Guardian (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WdfoLifFCU3dkjiS1hYF7pJM-uFh1RosWShx5vRo9wM/edit?usp=sharing) discipline

-The Sleeping Goddess (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cSrQNi5Fu0JnXsfe3MrooaZZOFS03vGO3Xw1ayo0LTk/edit?usp=Sharing) discipline

- The Cursed Razor (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vupG0mfOE8yU3NwaddxfnRhZ4PiWsLz-ANVkQ8KJftA/edit?usp=sharing) discipline

- The Shattered Mirror (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1A5i_oxGQJUIhIolHf8IMQF9Q6BsuMtKOr6szdvJv5FY/edit?usp=sharing) discipline

- The Mithral Current (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dKCPPIpRoR9CZv0A35gLDnXl5itgRufjWTq83BIsMfs/edit?usp=sharing) discipline

- The Riven Hourglass (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rmHuI_JcLiDJ2_g0jyrP0lQ1a8wyXh-yL4-3njLpnZk/edit) discipline, available for open beta.

- The Elemental Flux discipline (https://docs.google.com/document/d/14BiQj1sEeeEH0Nbyiyf-o0Kg4N5uDM5XwwqeWOJ21dI/edit?usp=sharing) is available for open beta.

- Piercing Thunder (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HcQQIp8ZPqmgMQjUWFvoI2qMFE0xdYFKcB0b30xmzFc/edit?usp=sharing) is available for open beta.

- Tempest Gale (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mmEGGV-7j6ZGZqPXblPeY8cPzYtTweDtggVA0kqyAmM/edit?usp=sharing), a new ranged discipline, is now in beta!

---
Prestige Classes!
Animus Adept (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-q23BMWM3UE-rStFb5FPuDItrSbTGr6Fl_57duN57gk/edit?usp=sharing) - Here! Have some glyphs!
Phoenix Champion (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lZdXjLE6f_cLl6z1wtMdxfQXIlfb4od0Yc_a931tR6o/edit?usp=sharing) - Silver Crane fun with bows!
The Landsknect (https://docs.google.com/document/d/14EfP9e8WfQG19MEYJ7Ts-fN5e-w1HrCgPHTfAnI5B68/edit?usp=sharing)- Einhander defender!

Other Stuff!

Path of War Expanded - Systems and Use Expanded (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UzzPibcqPZObXZ-IoLrd4ikiT6KWiaq92irAJHfIxzc/edit?usp=sharing) - Favored class bonuses, new options for old classes, and more!


Path of War: Expanded Archetypes Document (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tbBIinA90VQW8eriM0TZTZCbHsSU6cdv7_44J8w564s/edit?usp=sharing)

All the Feats for Path of War: Expanded! (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EPARqt5jpie03MIXStgFrNK_si6g218bjT4TFbcizPY/edit?usp=sharing)

Martial Tradition (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vX5QKzsOgPVoXqSuKdu_INbPz5x7OAL_qbH2aia14xk/edit)

- On the agenda: Favored class and racial abilities, traits, more feats, prestige classes, monster stuff, and more!

Dreamscarred Press - FAQ! Check out the answers here! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?420178-Pathfinder-Dreamscarred-Press-FAQ&p=19370298)

----

Thread1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?373269-Dreamscarred-Press-Announces-Path-of-War-Expanded), Thread2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?399647-Dreamscarred-Press-Announces-Path-of-War-Expanded-(new-thread)), Thread3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?406639-Dreamscarred-Press-Path-of-War-Expanded!-(Discussion-Thread-III)), Thread4 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411495-Dreamscarred-Press-Path-of-War-Expanded!-(Discussion-Thread-IV)), Thread5 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?417748-Dreamscarred-Press-Path-of-War-Expanded!-(Discussion-Thread-V)), Thread6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423981-Dreamscarred-Press-Path-of-War-Expanded!-(Discussion-Thread-VI))

It's been an amazing ride so far, and the support from the community for this project has been overwhelming and very touching. We couldn't have gotten this far without you guys, and I hope the Path of War line can continue to be an addition to your tables. With that said, I declare this thread to be officially open!

[Kaidinah]

First for Fayelin is best girl.

[ghanjrho]

Two more releases until the big one!

[Desril]

Hey, I've got a question and the guy I usually go to for DSP stuff is sleeping so I thought I'd try here;


Is there a good Brawler equivalent initiator class/archetype?

Steelfist Commando is close enough for most circumstances, but the game I'm building this for already has 2 Warlords so I don't want to use it, also I like the Brawler's Martial Flexibility and full unarmed strike progression more than Greater Unarmed Strike's.

[Lord_Gareth]

As a reminder to folks, Anthony & I have written some fiction (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?432004-Cool-Dreamscarred-Press-fiction!), and you can look forward to some other Path of War related short stories as well.

[Taveena]

Hey, I've got a question and the guy I usually go to for DSP stuff is sleeping so I thought I'd try here;


Is there a good Brawler equivalent initiator class/archetype?

Steelfist Commando is close enough for most circumstances, but the game I'm building this for already has 2 Warlords so I don't want to use it, also I like the Brawler's Martial Flexibility and full unarmed strike progression more than Greater Unarmed Strike's.

Currently the Steelfist Commando is the only real option. Stalker can get IUS and SUS with an Art, but they're not really built to be quite as tanky. Aurora Soul is probably a bit too magical.

My personal suggestion - if the flexibility is what you're after - is to go for an Aegis with Initiator's Soul, letting you change your maneuvers known every day. If it's the thematics you're hoping for, Myrmidon can be VERY effective and has access to Broken Blade for maximum punching. And is compatible with pretty much every Fighter archetype.

[Milo v3]

Is there a good Brawler equivalent initiator class/archetype?

Steelfist Commando is close enough for most circumstances, but the game I'm building this for already has 2 Warlords so I don't want to use it, also I like the Brawler's Martial Flexibility and full unarmed strike progression more than Greater Unarmed Strike's.

Unfortunately no.


Currently the Steelfist Commando is the only real option. Stalker can get IUS and SUS with an Art, but they're not really built to be quite as tanky. Aurora Soul is probably a bit too magical.

My personal suggestion - if the flexibility is what you're after - is to go for an Aegis with Initiator's Soul, letting you change your maneuvers known every day. If it's the thematics you're hoping for, Myrmidon can be VERY effective and has access to Broken Blade for maximum punching. And is compatible with pretty much every Fighter archetype.

None of those options have full-unarmed progression though.

[Taveena]

No. No, they do not. I guess DSP didn't want to get rid of the one niche Monks had - abusing large weapon dice with real and virtual size increases.

[ghanjrho]

Greater unarmed Strike helps.

[Nyaa]

Animus Adept:

Magical Aptitude? :smallconfused:
Animus Pool: "At the end of any round in which the mystic initiates a maneuver"
Mystical Prowess: does it grant access to new tiers of glyphs?
I can't decide if AA gets too much glyphs or if there are too few on the list. 5th level AA knows all basic glyphs, and doesn't know two advanced and master.

[EldritchWeaver]

No. No, they do not. I guess DSP didn't want to get rid of the one niche Monks had - abusing large weapon dice with real and virtual size increases.

I wouldn't mind. With my houserules (using SoP and PoW classes, not using core classes, where possible) I've thrown out 4 of the core classes completely. So another one would be just a step towards the final solution!:smallbiggrin:

[amberlink]

Can't seem to find an answer anywhere else, so for the first Path of War, Pugilist's stance, the short version mentions it scaling while the long one doesn't. Which is correct?

[Elricaltovilla]

Can't seem to find an answer anywhere else, so for the first Path of War, Pugilist's stance, the short version mentions it scaling while the long one doesn't. Which is correct?

It should scale. Although it's important to note that after PoW:E is complete we'll be reviewing the old disciplines for errata, so the rate of scaling may change.

[Dragonus45]

So I had more of a general PoW question. If I get to level 14 or so then dip a level into an initiator class can I use the maneuvers I get that level to qualify for higher level maneuvers? I remember this being answered in the old DSP forums but those are gone now and I had some people wanting it clarified.

[Elricaltovilla]

So I had more of a general PoW question. If I get to level 14 or so then dip a level into an initiator class can I use the maneuvers I get that level to qualify for higher level maneuvers? I remember this being answered in the old DSP forums but those are gone now and I had some people wanting it clarified.

What do you mean "qualify for higher level maneuvers"? If you meet the prerequisites of a maneuver you can take that maneuver. That includes meeting the IL and number of maneuvers prerequisites. If you went say Fighter 14/Stalker 1, your stalker IL would be 8, qualifying you for 4th level maneuvers. You could take any maneuver of up to 4th level that you meet the prerequisites for. Now, 3rd and 4th level maneuvers have a prerequisite of "1 other maneuver from this discipline" which means you'd need at least 1 maneuver/stance of 1st or 2nd level from that discipline before you could take any 3rd or 4th level maneuvers, but once you have that you can use your other maneuvers known to learn 3rd and 4th level maneuvers.

[Dragonus45]

What do you mean "qualify for higher level maneuvers"? If you meet the prerequisites of a maneuver you can take that maneuver. That includes meeting the IL and number of maneuvers prerequisites. If you went say Fighter 14/Stalker 1, your stalker IL would be 8, qualifying you for 4th level maneuvers. You could take any maneuver of up to 4th level that you meet the prerequisites for. Now, 3rd and 4th level maneuvers have a prerequisite of "1 other maneuver from this discipline" which means you'd need at least 1 maneuver/stance of 1st or 2nd level from that discipline before you could take any 3rd or 4th level maneuvers, but once you have that you can use your other maneuvers known to learn 3rd and 4th level maneuvers.

My question was about the second bit, the minimum known maneuvers. Specifically can I count a maneuver learned that level towards the prerequisite to take the 4th level one. I swear I remember a post on the old forums where they mentioned you couldn't, you had to take at least a second level in the class to get to them, but those are gone now and I wanted some clarification.

[Elricaltovilla]

My question was about the second bit, the minimum known maneuvers. Specifically can I count a maneuver learned that level towards the prerequisite to take the 4th level one. I swear I remember a post on the old forums where they mentioned you couldn't, you had to take at least a second level in the class to get to them, but those are gone now and I wanted some clarification.

Ah. To clarify that point then: You need at least 1 maneuver or stance from the discipline before you can take that 4th level maneuver. Once you have that 4th level maneuver though, you can swap out that 2nd level maneuver later though and still keep your 4th level maneuver because it counts as its own prerequisite.

Yeah, it's pretty confusing. Let me know if this helps any.

[Dragonus45]

Ah. To clarify that point then: You need at least 1 maneuver or stance from the discipline before you can take that 4th level maneuver. Once you have that 4th level maneuver though, you can swap out that 2nd level maneuver later though and still keep your 4th level maneuver because it counts as its own prerequisite.

Yeah, it's pretty confusing. Let me know if this helps any.

Not really, I know that I need at least one from the same discipline, I'm just wondering if during this high level dip I can count a maneuver I gain that level as the prerequisite maneuver or if I have to wait till I take a second level of the class.

[Elricaltovilla]

Not really, I know that I need at least one from the same discipline, I'm just wondering if during this high level dip I can count a maneuver I gain that level as the prerequisite maneuver or if I have to wait till I take a second level of the class.

No, you do not need a second level of the class in order to take that 4th level maneuver, provided you also take at least one other maneuver from the same discipline that does not have a prerequisite.

[Dragonus45]

No, you do not need a second level of the class in order to take that 4th level maneuver, provided you also take at least one other maneuver from the same discipline that does not have a prerequisite.

Huh, thats weird, I could have sword that there was a post on the old DSP forums that said otherwise. Now to try and convince a GM that half initiator level on non itiating classes isn't over powered.

[Taveena]

So at present in PoW it's really hard to be a TWF Ranged character, what with the only disciplines and feats supporting that being explicitly restricted to melee. Any chance of a Thrashing Dragon Pounce-alike for ranged characters at some point? Presumably, y'know, not soon. Just... I really like dual pistol/crossbow wielders, and... also the arguably more feasible double-thrower builds.

I dunno. Just something for the future, maybe.

[twas_Brillig]

So at present in PoW it's really hard to be a TWF Ranged character, what with the only disciplines and feats supporting that being explicitly restricted to melee. Any chance of a Thrashing Dragon Pounce-alike for ranged characters at some point? Presumably, y'know, not soon. Just... I really like dual pistol/crossbow wielders, and... also the arguably more feasible double-thrower builds.

I dunno. Just something for the future, maybe.

Actually, would people homebrewing things like this (i.e. maneuvers that have demand but aren't slated for immediate, official development), testing them in their own games, and reporting back be helpful? Or would that be a licensing mess?

[Taveena]

Actually, would people homebrewing things like this (i.e. maneuvers that have demand but aren't slated for immediate, official development), testing them in their own games, and reporting back be helpful? Or would that be a licensing mess?

I mean DSP does have a submission forum exactly for this kinda thing, but I'm a little leery of this SPECIFIC instance because it can't really work as a discipline-based Style feat (what with all of them being taken), so it's hard to homebrew up an exact analogue - plus they're mostly wrapping up now.

I mean, one possibility is just to change Thrashing Dragon Pounce to function with ranged attacks. Maybe even Thrashing Dragon Whirlwind, but I'm less certain about that - if it was 'within one range increment' then it's just a much wider radius. I guess 'all adjacent enemies' could also work but it feels like a weird restriction when you can hit someone further away with a spear than you can with a pistol.

[Dusk Eclipse]

It could work as a combination feat ala Elemental Current or Electrum Manticore, something like "When you are in a Solar Wond/Tempest Gale stance and using the Thrashing Dragon Style you may intiate melee strikes with thrown weapons within the first two range increments".

Wording definitely can use a lot of polishing, buy you get the idea (hopefully)

[Taveena]

It could work as a combination feat ala Elemental Current or Electrum Manticore, something like "When you are in a Solar Wond/Tempest Gale stance and using the Thrashing Dragon Style you may intiate melee strikes with thrown weapons within the first two range increments".

Wording definitely can use a lot of polishing, buy you get the idea (hopefully)


Ooh, that's a pretty sweet solution. "When you are in a Solar Wind or Tempest Gale stance, you may initiate Thrashing Dragon maneuvers that require a melee attack using ranged attacks instead. This does not allow you to make a ranged attack with a weapon not normally capable of it."

Unfortunately I can't think of a word relating to both sun and storms. Meteoric?

EDIT: Added in a line to clarify it doesn't change whether a weapon is melee or ranged.

[Jurai]

Solar Typhoon
Primeval Bolt
Primordial Storm
Raging Tempest
Furious Gust
Blazing Wrath
Angered Sun

[Taveena]

I think the main focus is on the ranged discipline plus thrashing dragon, so SOME kind of beast of legend should be involved in the name.

STORMYWORD Wyvern, or something.

EDIT: Maybe also "Whenever you initiate a Tempest Gale or Solar Wind strike that allows you to make a only single ranged attack, you can make an extra attack with your offhand weapon at your highest base attack bonus as a free action. If you do so, your attacks take two weapon fighting penalties as normal for fighting with two weapons."

I dunno. Is that too wordy?

[Jurai]

Squalling Wyvern.

[Taveena]

It's been brought to my attention that TWF Ranged is probably one of the strongest styles in PoW despite having no support, simply because standing back and full attacking is such a ridiculously strong option. Thrashing Dragon is also one of the Problem disciplines, so...

I dunno. It might be better to simply have it be "Whenever you initiate a strike that allows you to make a only single ranged attack, you can make an extra attack with your offhand weapon at your highest base attack bonus as a free action. If you do so, your attacks take two weapon fighting penalties as normal for fighting with two weapons." Exactly like TDP.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Perhaps a feat in the vein of Elemental Current/Electrum Manticores that allows to initiate Thrashing Dragon strikes with thrown weapons (within one or two range increments) while you are in a Tempest Gale stance?

[CGNefarious]

Thrashing Tempest of the Solar Dragon Style.

Because, you know, I'm super good at coming up with names.

[Taveena]

Perhaps a feat in the vein of Elemental Current/Electrum Manticores that allows to initiate Thrashing Dragon strikes with thrown weapons (within one or two range increments) while you are in a Tempest Gale stance?

I mean, the main problem is that limiting it to Thrashing Dragon could result in some really awkward problems where the ONLY way to do a TWF thrower is to break the game wide open - and given the intent here is to support ALL TWF ranged styles, that limitation seems a little awkward. Having seperate feats for TWF throwing, TWF guns, and TWF crossbows would just kinda be a waste of pagespace.

A Tempest Gale TWF Thrower actually already manages a TON of damage, but they do it by entirely ignoring a huge part of PoW, as none of their Strikes work. Nothing but Stances and Boosts. And while that's not an UNREASONABLE build, it's obscenely potent (I was told Mystic Gunslinger was slightly stronger) and adding Thrashing Dragon's strikes to that might make it even worse. And in this case Thrashing Dragon strikes are the ONLY option, and results in a lot of weird rulings (like Offensive Roll always provoking AoOs and all the Unarmed/Natural maneuvers only functioning with a Throwing Returning Amulet of Mighty Fists).

It feels like making the various disciplines with Ranged support also support ranged TWF would be a lot easier to handle than making Thrashing Dragon a ranged discipline, while allowing for more potential concepts.

[amberlink]

What category of trait are Unorthodox Method and Practiced Initiator supposed to be?

[Vhaidara]

What category of trait are Unorthodox Method and Practiced Initiator supposed to be?

IIRC, they aren't. Because that i highly restrictive and the devs don't want to do that

[Andreaz]

Combat, most likely. One could argue it to be campaign as well.

[Taveena]

Combat, most likely. One could argue it to be campaign as well.

They are explicitly untyped traits, so they are compatible with all other traits and each other.

[Greenish]

Fear Monger (Ex): The stalker gains Cornugon Smash and Dazzling Display as bonus feats.This is nice enough, but Cornugon Smash requires you to be using Power Attack to activate, and Dazzling Display requires you to be using the weapon you have Weapon Focus with, so what happens if you don't have those feats?

Well, actually, the art doesn't even say that you get to ignore the requirements, so I guess this doesn't apply. Seems a bit weird contrasted to things like Killer's Implement or Sniper's Tools, though.

[Vhaidara]

That was discussed, and needing the feats is intentional, since the combination is really powerful.

[Greenish]

Is Killer's Implement and Sniper's Tools not working as prerequisites also intended? Because while for the former it's no great loss, the latter really feels it if going for archery focus.

[amberlink]

Which all parts of this have actually been released currently?

[Forrestfire]

Harbinger and Mystic have each had their own mini-release pdfs published.

[Lord_Gareth]

Finally! New Avvie installed, courtesy of Prime32.

[Taveena]

In the Expanded Systems and Use doc, it currently says "When a warlord gets a new tactical presence, he may select one of these at the indicated level" - however, the Warlord does not actually get to CHOOSE which presence they get, simply gaining a specific presence at a certain level (rather like Bardic Performances). It might be necessary to say that these can be taken instead of the listed ones - at the moment the only way they can be taken is with the Extra Presences feat.

EDIT: Also, the Aasimar favored class bonus is "Add 5 ft every 1/2 level to the range of the warlord’s tactical presence". What does this mean? They get 10 ft every level? Shouldn't it be radius rather than range, or are there cases in which the former would be incorrect?

[amberlink]

I don't see anything in Void Prophet preventing the sickened/loss of power points upon a member of the collective dying, simply that they recover maneuvers, is this intentional?

Edit: And a question for the first book, does Discipline Focus count stances? Figured this one out

Edit 2: Does initiator level affect what level maneuvers in regards to the archtypes that get only up to level 6?

Edit 3 (Sorry I keep coming up with more questions): There's always reference to initiation modifier in things like classes and alternate class features, are there ways to change initiator modifier ever or is it simply...in case something else comes out that works with it?

Edit 4: If I take say, Awakened Blade, and had 2 initiator classes before hand, do I add full awakened blade levels to both to determine the initiator level they each have? In addition can I use the new maneuvers and stances for either initiator class each time? Or do I choose one at level 1 of the prestige and have to stick with it? And for something like stance of the Inner eye, which Initiator level do I use?

[Taveena]

Weird thing about Void Prophet - and I'm not sure this is exactly a gamebreaker, but it's weird - but enemies are in a weird position where they can avoid a lot of its effects by simply not resisting. The Life Leech and the Commander don't seem to have this issue. "Creatures forced into your collective using
Unwilling Participant are considered willing members for any collective-related effects unless they succeed on another Will save at the same DC to resist being forced into the collective." also results in some really wonky interactions where they WANT to count as Willing members of the collective.

[DarkEternal]

Awesome product, all in all. I like that you seem passionate about the entire thing and updating it with new stuff. However, I'd like to know if you are thinking about an errata of some things that are frankly too strong and when can we expect that? The things I consider too strong, at the very least for now is the Thrashing Dragon's Vicious strike which for a fairly big DC pretty much instakills any enemy by applying a Daze condition for 1d4 rounds.

Also, concerning Stalker Arts. Combat Precognition seems obscenely strong as it is, but even with that, I really fail to see why any martial class would not take a dip in this class if they have even one bonus wisdom point.

Other than that, thanks for the great work.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Awesome product, all in all. I like that you seem passionate about the entire thing and updating it with new stuff. However, I'd like to know if you are thinking about an errata of some things that are frankly too strong and when can we expect that? The things I consider too strong, at the very least for now is the Thrashing Dragon's Vicious strike which for a fairly big DC pretty much instakills any enemy by applying a Daze condition for 1d4 rounds.



As far as i know they are finishing the expanded book first and then move on to errata the older material. Thrashing dragon is on the list of manouvers that needs to be reigned in a bit. So yes, they will adress it eventually, just not right now.

[tekevil]

I kinda wish they'd do the opposite, that way the disciplines in expanded wont need nerfing errata to be on par with post-nerf Path of War 1 disciplines. It'd reduce the workload on Path of War:E errata later.

[Vhaidara]

I kinda wish they'd do the opposite, that way the disciplines in expanded wont need nerfing errata to be on par with post-nerf Path of War 1 disciplines. It'd reduce the workload on Path of War:E errata later.

The thing is, Broken Blade, Primal Fury, and Thrashing Dragon are all seriously overtuned for damage in a way that the newer disciplines aren't. Black Seraph has one standout in my mind (Strength of Hell is just about the best level 1 boost I've ever seen), but even then, it is strongest when feeding into Broken Blade or Thrashing Dragon.

[EldritchWeaver]

I kinda wish they'd do the opposite, that way the disciplines in expanded wont need nerfing errata to be on par with post-nerf Path of War 1 disciplines. It'd reduce the workload on Path of War:E errata later.

That creates potentially new problems, assuming that the most powerful disciplines are too overpowered to be like that in the game (e.g. causing deaths within two rounds even for boss enemies). Also that doesn't help with the less powerful disciplines of the original PoW. If you don't tone down the more powerful ones, you need to enhance the less powerful ones to bring them on the same level. Overall that strategy doesn't decrease the workload.

[Tuvarkz]

The thing is, Broken Blade, Primal Fury, and Thrashing Dragon are all seriously overtuned for damage in a way that the newer disciplines aren't. Black Seraph has one standout in my mind (Strength of Hell is just about the best level 1 boost I've ever seen), but even then, it is strongest when feeding into Broken Blade or Thrashing Dragon.

Strength of Hell is just an Encouraging Roar that doesn't affect others, and has the user take a -2 to AC just for +1.5 extra damage on average (or +3 avg if target is good aligned)

[Taveena]

Strength of Hell is just an Encouraging Roar that doesn't affect others, and has the user take a -2 to AC just for +1.5 extra damage on average (or +3 avg if target is good aligned)

Profane is borked at the moment so that any attack with a Profane rider effect has ALL of its damage multiplied, even if it's 99 bashing damage and 1 profane damage - against Good creatures, that's 150 damage. (Or 148 Bashing and 1 Profane, depending on how you handle fractional damage.)

[Tuvarkz]

Profane is borked at the moment so that any attack with a Profane rider effect has ALL of its damage multiplied, even if it's 99 bashing damage and 1 profane damage - against Good creatures, that's 150 damage. (Or 148 Bashing and 1 Profane, depending on how you handle fractional damage.)
Wait, what?
*Reads Systems and Use Carefully*

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/995/953/83f.gif

[The Glyphstone]

Just curious (and because I'm poor:smallyuk: ), but the Harbinger Beta document mentions that the release Harbinger should eventually be included on the PFSRD, at which point the Beta GoogleDoc will be deleted. Is there any ETA on that wondrous event?

[EldritchWeaver]

Just curious (and because I'm poor:smallyuk: ), but the Harbinger Beta document mentions that the release Harbinger should eventually be included on the PFSRD, at which point the Beta GoogleDoc will be deleted. Is there any ETA on that wondrous event?

I wouldn't expect it before the entire book has been finished. And then it likely takes some time for the PFSRD team, which has stated that Spheres of Power has currently the highest prio (aside from Paizo).

[Vhaidara]

Strength of Hell is just an Encouraging Roar that doesn't affect others, and has the user take a -2 to AC just for +1.5 extra damage on average (or +3 avg if target is good aligned)

The -2 AC didn't make it into the long description, so that's what I've been using until we get eratta. And Roar is a morale bonus, so it has things it won't stack with, like bard song, that are also great for flurry hitters like Dragon and Blade.

[Taveena]

The -2 AC didn't make it into the long description, so that's what I've been using until we get eratta. And Roar is a morale bonus, so it has things it won't stack with, like bard song, that are also great for flurry hitters like Dragon and Blade.

Inspire Courage is a Competence bonus in PF, for some reason.

[Vhaidara]

...please tell me I'm not the only one who facepalmed there. Please.

[Taveena]

You are not.

On the bright side, this means a Rubato with Golden General's Attitude can top out at a sizable +9 bonus to attack and damage aura.

[Adam1949]

I wouldn't expect it before the entire book has been finished. And then it likely takes some time for the PFSRD team, which has stated that Spheres of Power has currently the highest prio (aside from Paizo).

I'm still waiting for a DSP/SoP crossover of some kind. Maybe making the Elemental Flux school and Destruction sphere work together somehow.

[EldritchWeaver]

I'm still waiting for a DSP/SoP crossover of some kind. Maybe making the Elemental Flux school and Destruction sphere work together somehow.

Your prayers have been answered: DSP's Steelforge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?430138-Dreamscarred-Press-Announces-Steelforge-Playtest) has items which support SoP as well.

[Taveena]

Currently under the short descriptions of maneuvers there's one Piercing Thunder maneuver listed as Lighting Rush, and I don't THINK it's meant to be charging someone with a glowstick.

[nevinera]

The Animus Adept has a Martial Glyph:


Deflective Armor: Improves the ally’s natural armor bonus to Armor Class by +2; this bonus improves by +1 every six initiator levels (max of +5).

You cannot enter the class until level 6 - typically this language would mean that it improves to +3 at level 12, +4 at 18, +5 at 24. I'm assuming that was not the intent here. Taken the other way, it ought to improve at initiator level 7, which is the level after the ability can be acquired. Could you clarify the intent of the scaling here?

Elemental Armor needs slight fluff to explain why grappling/tripping/licking the target doesn't result in pain (or maybe it should). Is it apparent - would targets have a reason to know that they might not want to hit that character?

Spirit stride is a free action teleport - should it provoke AoO or not?

Does applying a martial glyph require line of effect? Can a target be the subject of multiple different glyphs? Can one apply more than one glyph in a turn (swift + strike)?

[Nihilarian]

The Animus Adept has a Martial Glyph:



You cannot enter the class until level 6 - typically this language would mean that it improves to +3 at level 12, +4 at 18, +5 at 24. I'm assuming that was not the intent here. Taken the other way, it ought to improve at initiator level 7, which is the level after the ability can be acquired. Could you clarify the intent of the scaling here?it's +2, +1 for every 6 initiator levels you have. So +3 at 6, +4 at 12, +5 at 18.

[nevinera]

it's +2, +1 for every 6 initiator levels you have. So +3 at 6, +4 at 12, +5 at 18.

Makes sense. I'd suggest wording it differently - that 'for every X levels' is usually used for class levels, and typically indicates that it'll improve X levels after it's acquired. Maybe "It grants an additional +1 bonus for each 6 initiator levels possessed" or something like that?

[nevinera]

Rapid Strike from Riven Hourglass: the short description includes a -2 modifier to both attacks, but the full text does not.

[Andreaz]

Makes sense. I'd suggest wording it differently - that 'for every X levels' is usually used for class levels, and typically indicates that it'll improve X levels after it's acquired. Maybe "It grants an additional +1 bonus for each 6 initiator levels possessed" or something like that?Hmm. Not seeing it. Generally "every X levels" starts from 1, always. When it starts translated from level 1 it says so. For example "At third level ..... this improves by +1 for every 4 levels after that." is something that scales at levels 3, 7, 11, 14, 18. "At third level.... this improves by +1 for every 4 levels" is 3, 4, 8, 12, 16, 20.

[nevinera]

Hmm. Not seeing it. Generally "every X levels" starts from 1, always. When it starts translated from level 1 it says so. For example "At third level ..... this improves by +1 for every 4 levels after that." is something that scales at levels 3, 7, 11, 14, 18. "At third level.... this improves by +1 for every 4 levels" is 3, 4, 8, 12, 16, 20.

I don't recall ever encountering that language. I'm definitely not aware of any other ability that gives a bonus phrased like this one, where the base bonus is scaled up by level as soon as you acquire it - those are usually described in terms like "1/2 the oracle's level (minimum 1) plus their charisma modifier". "2 + 1/6 of the character's initiator level (rounded down)" would be perfectly clear and unambiguous.

[Nihilarian]

I don't recall ever encountering that language.The old Psychic Warrior's trances all use "thereafter", although oddly, the new trances seem to lack it.

[Taveena]

Is there any chance that the Tempest Gale Trick Blade Skill could have its wording changed from "when using his thrown mind blade or mind bolt" to "when making a ranged attack with a Mind Blade (or equivalent)" so that it functions unambiguously with the Panoply of Blades (which is not strictly speaking a Mind Blade)?

[Powerdork]

I suggested this last thread, but need to suggest it again apparently: there are more class templates in the class templates document than bushi, hussar and privateer, so can that link in the opening post be repositioned and rewritten as a convenience for finding content for new users?

[Nyaa]

Flux' energy resistance negating boosts' progression looks weird. Degrade Resistance (2) ignores 10 points for all attacks in a round and adds damage only to one attack. Assay Resistance (4) ignores 25 points and adds damage only for one attack, but still have listed duration of 1 round. Shatter Resistance (6) and Elemental Breach (8) behave like proper boosts and affect all attacks in a round.

[nevinera]

At level 5, in Elemental Flux, I'll gain access to Elemental Flux Stance. One of the options (fire) says: "Your body is filled with warmth and healing light, granting you fast healing 1, and you glow like a torch, as if under the effect of a light spell."

So basically, after every fight, I should switch to fire and wait N rounds, and I get to full-heal? Not that you guys haven't broken the healing economy a little elsewhere (and my vitalist loves you for it), but were you thinking of the out-of-combat use here? It seems out-of-line, since there's no real disadvantage - the other elements are very solid in-combat, and switching to fire for 10 minutes and sitting in a closet (reading a book by your own light) doesn't hurt anything most of the time.

If out of combat use wasn't the intent, you might try something more active, like "whenever you use a martial strike against a foe of half your hit-dice or greater, you gain __ HP". Just slapping "while in combat" on it would mostly work, but will produce weird scenarios where my best option is to run in circles around a dungeon being chased by the last bad guy while I slowly recover my health.

[Andreaz]

At level 5, in Elemental Flux, I'll gain access to Elemental Flux Stance. One of the options (fire) says: "Your body is filled with warmth and healing light, granting you fast healing 1, and you glow like a torch, as if under the effect of a light spell."

So basically, after every fight, I should switch to fire and wait N rounds, and I get to full-heal? Not that you guys haven't broken the healing economy a little elsewhere (and my vitalist loves you for it), but were you thinking of the out-of-combat use here? It seems out-of-line, since there's no real disadvantage - the other elements are very solid in-combat, and switching to fire for 10 minutes and sitting in a closet (reading a book by your own light) doesn't hurt anything most of the time.

If out of combat use wasn't the intent, you might try something more active, like "whenever you use a martial strike against a foe of half your hit-dice or greater, you gain __ HP". Just slapping "while in combat" on it would mostly work, but will produce weird scenarios where my best option is to run in circles around a dungeon being chased by the last bad guy while I slowly recover my health.

It's not out of line at all. All it does is skimp a few gp from the CLW wand you didn't need to use. The real power of the stance is the added damage. Kill the enemy a round earlier and lo, you didn't need to healp the 30 damage he'd deal you!

And "sit in a closet for 10 minutes" is single-encounter mentality right there. Ever explored a dungeon after stealth is gone to hell? Ever been in a chase? Any sort of arena? You don't want (or can't) to wait a single round.
At higher levels it only gets less feasible. There's just too many hitpoints for you to heal 1 at a time, and soon you start using stances like Enter the Vortex and Silvered Mirror Stance and gods, God of the Hourglass... Fire elemental flux stance is reduced to a "ok, since we're all stopping I'm gonna sleep glowing" stance.

[nevinera]

It's not out of line at all. All it does is skimp a few gp from the CLW wand you didn't need to use. The real power of the stance is the added damage. Kill the enemy a round earlier and lo, you didn't need to healp the 30 damage he'd deal you!

And "sit in a closet for 10 minutes" is single-encounter mentality right there. Ever explored a dungeon after stealth is gone to hell? Ever been in a chase? Any sort of arena? You don't want (or can't) to wait a single round.
At higher levels it only gets less feasible. There's just too many hitpoints for you to heal 1 at a time, and soon you start using stances like Enter the Vortex and Silvered Mirror Stance and gods, God of the Hourglass... Fire elemental flux stance is reduced to a "ok, since we're all stopping I'm gonna sleep glowing" stance.

I don't intend to argue any points here (though you are of course free to counter mine). I am making suggestions and expressing opinions for the developers to read - they'll make their own decisions about whether any point I am making is valid, and if they disagree, I'll assume it's because they're better at game design than I am.

Edit: less pissy.

[nevinera]

Shattered Glass Smite doesn't have any language about saving or dodging the glass, which is unusual for this sort of area attack. It creates the odd situation where I might want to hit (for example) a *door* with the strike in order to land unavoidable damage on a high-reflexes/AC target, or to deal with a swarm.

[Taveena]

I don't actually care about your opinion, nor am I interested in arguing any point here. I am making suggestions and expressing opinions for the developers to read - they'll make their own decisions about whether any point I am making is valid, and if they disagree, I'll assume it's because they're better at game design than I am.

Having a forum fight with random dudes hasn't entertained me since I was 10.

Try to avoid double-posting, please. Keep in mind that Silver Crane and Unquiet Grave also provide unlimited out-of-combat healing, so there is quite a lot of precedent.

[nevinera]

Try to avoid double-posting, please. Keep in mind that Silver Crane and Unquiet Grave also provide unlimited out-of-combat healing, so there is quite a lot of precedent.

Apologies, I'll edit from now on. I'm just noting things that seem strange as I'm building/optimizing a character - I've not built with SC or UG yet. Since OOC healing clearly isn't relevant to their design goals, I won't worry about it any further. I've been erring on the side of making simple criticisms rather than researching and explaining, assuming that they'd prefer to just get a hit-list of 'criticisms' to traverse (and presumably ignore most of) over having to parse through discussions and explanations.

I'll edit the antagonistic post from before my coffee too, sorry about that.


Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even numbered mystic level after that (6th, 8th, 10th, and so on), the mystic can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one she already knows.

Animus adept doesn't mention anything about retraining maneuvers - that seems like a feature of being an initiator to me, and AA levels stack with Mystic levels - I wasn't sure if you intended AA to receive no retraining at all. (Battle Templar does, for example)

[Taveena]

The Nightmare's Frightful Claim and Soul Hunter's Soul Claiming are not the Dark Claim class feature, and as a result are not modified by Grasp of Darkness (which specifies Dark Claim class feature rather than just the 'ability to Claim creatures' specified by others.)

[Falco1029]

Any chance of an Archetype for Sorcerers (or, you know, I guess, other full casters), or is martial training and maybe leading eventually into Bladecaster the only option you're planning to have for full casters wanting to do a bit of Initiating?

[Forrestfire]

As far as we know in this thread, there aren't plans for any full casters getting archetypes. Martial training, multiclassing, and the initiator/caster PrCs are what we've got. They're still pretty decent options, at least.

[Falco1029]

That's a shame. Bladecaster is alright but like anything else with lost levels and/or multiclassing, it hits the Sorcerer a bit harder than the prepared casters because of the silly level behind progression.

[amberlink]

For something like Silver Crane, where unlike quite a few other disciplines it doesn't mention requirements to use discipline weapons or a specific type of weapon, does it mostly not matter if you don't use one of their discipline weapons? Question also applies to many of the newer disciplines listed

[Milo v3]

For something like Silver Crane, where unlike quite a few other disciplines it doesn't mention requirements to use discipline weapons or a specific type of weapon, does it mostly not matter if you don't use one of their discipline weapons? Question also applies to many of the newer disciplines listed

The difference between using a discipline weapon or not is a bonus to the DC's of your maneuvers iirc.

[amberlink]

The difference between using a discipline weapon or not is a bonus to the DC's of your maneuvers iirc.

Oh thanks, never even noticed that line before

[MilleniaAntares]

Well, my level 13 elf steelfist commando warlord (and rubato gestalt) did pretty well for herself to end the match.

On the last turn, the oxfolk warder turned large and used Cornered Frenzy Strike to attack all six of the minions of a boss within her 10 foot reach.

Then my elf went, and she used Dual Boost to combine Night's Knife and Blend With the Night, while in Hooded Killer's Stance. Then she used Crashing Wake to basically walk around the oxfolk and slaughter all the minions (who had only taken about 11 damage) with non-lethal attacks that dealt 77 to 90 damage.

Then she walked up to the boss, still invisible, and called for her surrender.

The boss, knocked down from her humongous mushroom form into her humanoid phase, just utterly surrendered.

Thank you DSP! :D

[Greenish]

Was it ever mentioned which version of Hide in Plain Sight a War Soul can get by selecting the Veiled Moon Mystery blade skill?

[Shackel]

I'd like to chip in on the Elemental Flux Stance talks: I also think that Fire is... underwhelming, to say the least. Compared to +2 untyped bonus to saves, getting DR 5/adamantine, and Air's nigh-extreme +4 dodge AC and +4 untyped to initiative, fast healing 1 just feels like it's tacked on. The perma-light is even neutral, since that can actually make using Fire an outright negative choice(like if you need to sneak around, got darkness cast near so being on fire makes you a glowing target, or want to get the drop on someone with your buffs on).

And it's on top of one of the most commonly resisted elements?

In combat, Earth and Air blow it clean out of the water. Earth mitigates 5 weapon damage each hit while Fire mitigates 1 damage each round. Air gets your turn out faster with +4 to init and its AC bonus is going to outright a lot more weapon/attack damage than Fire.

The out of combat use is alright for saving money at low levels, but it also has an unfortunate side-effect of feeling cheesy when you're hurt after a fight and just decide to sit around on fire for a couple minutes. Not to mention that once you start hitting even 75HP, sitting around for 5+ minutes while you sit around on fire can become a waste of time compared to a few taps with an Infernal Healing or CLW wand. Meaning, in time, the only reason you'd ever want to use Fire is for fire resistance.

DR 5/adamantine, +2 to saves and +4 dodge AC(and +4 to initiative) just seem so much better than fast healing 2. I don't think Fire's bonus needs to be up there with Air's(which I dare say might be a little too strong on top of +2d6 not-so-commonly resisted damage), but it should at least be a choice versus mitigating 5 damage from every hit. Even fast healing 2 might help with that.

[Lord_Gareth]

The Nightmare's Frightful Claim and Soul Hunter's Soul Claiming are not the Dark Claim class feature, and as a result are not modified by Grasp of Darkness (which specifies Dark Claim class feature rather than just the 'ability to Claim creatures' specified by others.)

This is purposeful.

[Taveena]

This is purposeful.

Do you mind if I ask why it's different from the others? Is a Soul Hunter or Nightmare getting stronger recovery a balance issue, or is multi-claiming a potential problem with them somehow?

[Kaidinah]

Do you mind if I ask why it's different from the others? Is a Soul Hunter or Nightmare getting stronger recovery a balance issue, or is multi-claiming a potential problem with them somehow?I have noticed that in general, the archetypes for base and core classes have slower recoveries. My guess as to why the Nightmare is barred from this is that it also has psionic powers, and in general can do more things than a harbinger can. The Soul Hunter? No clue, since its still a Stalker.

[Rentaromon]

I was looking at the mystic class and saw you can only spend a point of animus until higher levels, using more and more at a time as you gain higher levels. But what about the feat that grants you a pool of animus? The feat does not mention a limit at all.

I had no interest in mystic at all because i didnt like the random aspect of their maneuvers, but i liked the idea of animus and the elemental flux maneuvers, so i thought it was cool and planned to build up a big pool and throw one big fireball with huge damage that i earned. But after actually reading through the class it seems that is not how it works.

Any word?

[tekevil]

Was it ever mentioned which version of Hide in Plain Sight a War Soul can get by selecting the Veiled Moon Mystery blade skill?


Wait.... A Soul Knife can get access to hide in plain sight, but Stalkers can't?

[Kaidinah]

I was looking at the mystic class and saw you can only spend a point of animus until higher levels, using more and more at a time as you gain higher levels. But what about the feat that grants you a pool of animus? The feat does not mention a limit at all.

I had no interest in mystic at all because i didnt like the random aspect of their maneuvers, but i liked the idea of animus and the elemental flux maneuvers, so i thought it was cool and planned to build up a big pool and throw one big fireball with huge damage that i earned. But after actually reading through the class it seems that is not how it works.

Any word?You might be misunderstanding. The only animus limit based on character level on the Mystic was on class abilities, not the discipline itself. Other than this, each individual Elemental Flux strike has its own separate augmentation limit. Lance of Power for example, can have as much animus invested in it as necessary to bring its number of damage dice up to your character level. This is separate from the enhancements available from the Mystic's Animus class feature.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Fun fact: there is a difference between the gunsmoke mystic in the mystic document and the one in the archetypes document.

Animus charged bullets costs animus in one, and is free in the other.

Wich one goes into the final product?

[Nyaa]

Fun fact: there is a difference between the gunsmoke mystic in the mystic document and the one in the archetypes document.

Animus charged bullets costs animus in one, and is free in the other.

Wich one goes into the final product?

Yay, stealth nerfs!

[Rentaromon]

You might be misunderstanding. The only animus limit based on character level on the Mystic was on class abilities, not the discipline itself. Other than this, each individual Elemental Flux strike has its own separate augmentation limit. Lance of Power for example, can have as much animus invested in it as necessary to bring its number of damage dice up to your character level. This is separate from the enhancements available from the Mystic's Animus class feature.

Good to know, maybe add a line in the elemental flux section saying there is no limit instead of saying read more about it in the mystic section, thats what threw me off.

[Kaidinah]

Good to know, maybe add a line in the elemental flux section saying there is no limit instead of saying read more about it in the mystic section, thats what threw me off.
No, Elemental Flux has its own separate limit. The maneuver can only get its animus augmentation as many times as specified in the maneuver.

[Sethis]

The difference between using a discipline weapon or not is a bonus to the DC's of your maneuvers iirc.

Just noticed this, it shows in the Systems and Use section under saves. A +2 competence bonus. Nice.

[MilleniaAntares]

Just to make sure, the Pikeman's Training feat, as written in the document, only applies to polearms, but not to spears. I do not believe this is intentional, so perhaps it would be a good idea to change it to be polearms and spears, or polearms or spears.

Edit: Found the iconic for the Fiendbound Marauder. (http://zeronis-art.tumblr.com/post/130509119317/httpstwittercomzeronisart)

[tekevil]

I'm not really sure why they felt the need to buff Master of 1000 pokes while morphing it into Pikeman's training. Originally the feat only worked on the spear weapon group, since the polearm group is one of the strongest melee weapon groups.

My original idea was intended to preserve the power level usually associated with using a one handed weapon by forcing you to use something like a Long Spear if you wanted a melee reach weapon.

[Greenish]

Found the iconic for the Fiendbound Marauder. (http://zeronis-art.tumblr.com/post/130509119317/httpstwittercomzeronisart)It's a shame you can't combine Fiendbound Marauder with Dervish Defender.

[RedHeadSamurai]

In the final product will the bushi be getting modifications to allow the three new classes to take the template as well? was hoping to play a mystic bushi and would like to know if this will be a thing in the final product.

[Jurai]

They've said they aren't expanding the templates to the new classes already.

[Taveena]

Warlord and Warder lose bonus feats to be a Bushi, Stalker loses Arts. Zealot could potentially work by losing Convictions, and Mystic could lose its bonus feats, but there's nothing that Harbinger could really do.

Psychic and Arcane Samurai, Pirates, and cavalry aren't... quite as evocative as the idea of... I dunno, the Tsujigiri or the Flying Dutchman.

I mean you already got your mounted Harbinger, so there's no need for a Hussarbringer (see what I did there). But the other two probably also would need to be archetypes rather than class templates.

[oyzar]

I remember reading somewhere that even while dipping into the initiator classes you can still change out maneuvers every 4th Initator level. Is this an official rule or just proposed? In what document can I find it if so(to link to others)?

[Tome]

I was looking at the Knight Chandler and I noticed that while trading Elemental Glyphs for Candle Magic seems pretty even, where they trade Animus for Illumination there doesn't look to be anything compensates for the loss of the ability to augment maneuvers with Animus.

I'm pretty sure the Tap Animus feat doesn't give you the ability to augment maneuvers with Animus at least. Or does it?

Also, is Illumination supposed to just keep accruing as the combat progresses, or are there supposed to be ways to spend it?

[Lord_Gareth]

I was looking at the Knight Chandler and I noticed that while trading Elemental Glyphs for Candle Magic seems pretty even, where they trade Animus for Illumination there doesn't look to be anything compensates for the loss of the ability to augment maneuvers with Animus.

I'm pretty sure the Tap Animus feat doesn't give you the ability to augment maneuvers with Animus at least. Or does it?

Also, is Illumination supposed to just keep accruing as the combat progresses, or are there supposed to be ways to spend it?

Tap Animus exists specifically to permit you to augment Elemental Flux with animus, as well as access other animus-based feats. It can be used to power the class features that Chandler retained which require it.

Illumination is not spent; it builds.

[Tome]

Tap Animus exists specifically to permit you to augment Elemental Flux with animus, as well as access other animus-based feats. It can be used to power the class features that Chandler retained which require it.

Illumination is not spent; it builds.

So there's nothing to replace the standard Mystic's ability to augment maneuvers then? (Or their ability to count their class level as arcane spellcaster levels for that matter.)

Knight Chandler seems like a rather bad trade then, which is a shame because I otherwise love the concept.

[Taveena]

I know this is a stretch, but could Impulsive Reactions count as Combat Reflexes for the purpose of qualifying for feats? It feels stupid that my 10 dex lockdown Zealot needs to take a feat which gives NO benefit to qualify for Stand Still or Combat Patrol. (Or Mythic Combat Reflexes.)

[Nyaa]

Some FCBs look a bit off. +1/4 maneuver known grants five maneuvers over 20 levels. +1/5 combat feat (warlord) spent on Advanced Study grants eight maneuvers, not to mention other options. +1/4 stalker art spend on Advanced Study art or Combat Art (Advanced Study) grants ten maneuvers.

[Taveena]

Stalker is kinda balanced around having more maneuvers as its niche. Proportionally, the different FCBs keep that true.

[Tuvarkz]

It's a shame you can't combine Fiendbound Marauder with Dervish Defender.

Or with Zwei Sentinel. Sword+Chain would be awesome.
Also, big error in the reworked Eternal Guardian document: Intruder's End is marked as a Strike on the table, but the text marks it as a Counter.

[Prime32]

It occurs to me: is there any way for Warders to detect invisible things within range of their Defensive Focus? I've seen fictional techniques like it often enough (http://img.bato.to/comics/2011/08/10/h/read4e425a6804b16/11.jpg), as exaggerations of real fighting techniques along the lines of DF.

Off the top of my head, maybe a feat with a similar format to Hawkeye (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/hawkeye-combat)?

Zone of Awareness [Combat]
When you turn your focus to defence, no intruder can escape your notice.
Prerequisites: Blind-Fight, Defensive Focus class feature
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on Perception checks. Additionally, while using your Defensive Focus class feature, you gain the benefits of the blindsense ability against creatures and objects within your threatened area.
If you have 10 or more ranks in Perception, the bonus increases to +4 and you are considered to have blindsight instead of blindsense.

For comparison both Summoner Eidolons and Aegi can have 30ft blindsense with no restrictions at lv9, and 30ft blindsight at lv11. In 3.5, lv1 shifters with the Dreamsight Elite feat can spend a full-round action to get +5 Spot and see invisibility for the duration of their shifting. And Dampen Presence (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dampen-presence) is a thing.

[Sayt]

That is extremely cool! I'd maybe even let it function within the Aegis range during combat?

[amberlink]

If i take a martial tradition, can I apply it to more than one class? For example a base class and then Mage Hunter, What about for unorthodox method?

[Swaoeaeieu]

So i noticed in my campaign that full attack with broken blade and thrashing dragon or primal fury gets pretty crazy damage wise. I have just started playing my gunsmoke mystic who, when getting out her two pistols makes a pretty dent in people too.

What or some of the playgrounds favorite combo's using path of war (and expanded of course)? Or rather, how crazy can this get?

[Taveena]

So i noticed in my campaign that full attack with broken blade and thrashing dragon or primal fury gets pretty crazy damage wise. I have just started playing my gunsmoke mystic who, when getting out her two pistols makes a pretty dent in people too.

What or some of the playgrounds favorite combo's using path of war (and expanded of course)? Or rather, how crazy can this get?

To be entirely honest, that's kind of considered - at this point - to be a bug, rather than a feature. Full attacking in PoW is a little insane at the moment, especially with Broken Blade, Thrashing Dragon, and Primal Fury having their weird little full-attack maneuvers let you hit with more'n two weapons.

There's an emphasis on using Strikes over full-attacks, even if the latter is a numerically superior option, at this point - which is admittedly a little counter-intuitive with the full-attack buffing stances.

I dunno. It's just a bit messy at the moment, y'know? Like the dude who brings a Leap Attack Shock Trooper Barbarian with a Valorous Lance to a 3.5e game.

[Swaoeaeieu]

To be entirely honest, that's kind of considered - at this point - to be a bug, rather than a feature. Full attacking in PoW is a little insane at the moment, especially with Broken Blade, Thrashing Dragon, and Primal Fury having their weird little full-attack maneuvers let you hit with more'n two weapons.

There's an emphasis on using Strikes over full-attacks, even if the latter is a numerically superior option, at this point - which is admittedly a little counter-intuitive with the full-attack buffing stances.

I dunno. It's just a bit messy at the moment, y'know? Like the dude who brings a Leap Attack Shock Trooper Barbarian with a Valorous Lance to a 3.5e game.

Oh i know, and i read that those disciplines are getting a nerf in the future. But you have to admit, even without the full attack crazy stuff there are some cool combo's when using PoW material. Like getting insane amounts of AoO's or maybe lots of movement. I want only looking for crazy dmg, just curious about combo's you guys have thought of.

And my mystic does comparable dmg to full attack broken blade using only time skitter and searing break. And a fire glyph now that i think of it.

[Vhaidara]

Well, I'm a fan of Harbinger with dark presence and the step up line. Claim target tries to 5-ft away? You get to stab them before they move, then 5-ft after them and stab them again. Perfect counter to reach fighters.

Similarly, dip Harbinger on a warder to lock people out of withdraw/5ft step in the zone of nope. Also int synergy

Dipping zealot on a warlord can let you seriously abuse Tactical Assistance (cha mod as your aid another bonus)

[Andreaz]

Well, I'm a fan of Harbinger with dark presence and the step up line. Claim target tries to 5-ft away? You get to stab them before they move, then 5-ft after them and stab them again. Perfect counter to reach fighters.

Similarly, dip Harbinger on a warder to lock people out of withdraw/5ft step in the zone of nope. Also int synergy

Dipping zealot on a warlord can let you seriously abuse Tactical Assistance (cha mod as your aid another bonus)

that's step up and strike, right?
sadly, harbingers have no AoOs to speak of.

[Vhaidara]

Dex builds are great on harbingers. Start with a level of inspired blade swashbuckler to grab your dex to damage at level 1 (finesse and focus with rapier for free, take fencing grace), or dip a level of vigilante stalker for killer's implements.

Hell, dip warder on a Harbinger focused build. Boom, int based AoOs, right there.

[Nyaa]

So I re-read Elemental Flux...

There are following maneuvers that don't use weapon damage:

Energy Jolt (2) - 3d6 30ft touch attack, +1d6 per animus (max 3)
Lance of Power (3) - 5d6 30ft line, +2d6 per animus (max 5)
Energy Spark (3) - When you make an attack, you may spend a swift action to provoke AoO. You may also spend two points of animus to provoke an additional AoO.
Arcane Torrent (4) - 6d6 60ft force, not augmentable
Elemental Drive (5) - 9d6 30ft touch attack, not augmentable
Elemental Destruction Ring (6) - 12d6 20ft burst, +1d6 per two animus (max 16)
Zephyr Flux (8) - 14d6 120ft range 30ft burst, +2d6 per animus (max 3)
Strike of Elemental Devastation (9) - 150 30ft touch attacks, +10 per animus (max 3)


Is Elemental Destruction Ring augmentation a typo? Why doesn't it increase DC?
Why does Zephyr Flux inflict only half damage on secondary targets when regular chain lightning (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/chain-lightning) does full damage?
What does "each ray is augmented separately" mean and what is maximum augmentation of Strike of Elemental Devastation? 3 animus for 180 damage total? 15 animus for 300 total?

[Andreaz]

Each beam can take the full augmentation, capped separately.

[Nyaa]

Does Ride the Current (Current 4) negate the attack if initiator ends movement out of attacker's reach or behind total cover?

I think Flowing River (Current 7) should require line of effect to prevent it from being used against things like say scrying (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/scrying.html), unless it's intended use.

[MilleniaAntares]

The Omen Rider's immunity to fatigue class feature may not be so useful without the addition of an immunity to not eating/drinking/sleeping.

Edit: More importantly, it's almost impossible to run (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Run) for 10 minutes straight, even for a horse with Endurance. I suggest changing it to a hustle.

[The-Mage-King]

Hey there. Dropping in because I'm working on an Aegis using the Initiator's Soul-line customization, and I wanna be clear about somethings.


The maneuvers gained from them can only be used while the Astral Suit is active, right?
What happens to the pp gained from Sleeping Goddess maneuvers by the IS customization? If I have three maneuvers from it, and they give a total of 4 pp, do I get those at all times, or only while my Astral Suit is active?
By changing customization, I can reconfigure my maneuvers known, yes? Does that mean I can select a new pair of disciplines each day?
What happens if a customization granting a maneuver is lost?


I think that's about it... Sorry if these have been asked before, but I didn't see a clear answer in the docs.

[MilleniaAntares]

1) All customizations of an Astral Suit (or its equivalent) only work when it is active. That means you're kind of boned in an anti-magic field, or if someone dispels your suit.
2) See above.
3) Only if you remove the customizations that give you non-Sleeping Goddess maneuvers first.
4) You lose that maneuver. Keep in mind that if you trade out enough customizations of a certain discipline, you will lose access to higher level maneuvers, and to any permanent maneuvers you gain through Advanced Study (though the feat will remain locked in place short of retraining).

[Chris Robin R2]

So, if I'm wielding a katana 2H'd as a Harbinger with Accursed Will and Katana Expertise, how much damage is it dealing? What about if I Power Attack? I'm a little confused on this one.

[Taveena]

So, if I'm wielding a katana 2H'd as a Harbinger with Accursed Will and Katana Expertise, how much damage is it dealing? What about if I Power Attack? I'm a little confused on this one.

Finessable 2h weapons have precedent. Accursed Will damage doesn't multiply. Katana Expertise does not allow you to add dexterity to damage. You do 1.5*str modifier + 1 * int modifier, as normal. Power Attack scales as it would for any 1h weapon wielded in two hands. Deadly Agility would change that to 1 * dex mod + 1 * int mod, because it does not increase for weapons wielded in two hands or decrease for weapons held in the offhand.

[Vhaidara]

So, if I'm wielding a katana 2H'd as a Harbinger with Accursed Will and Katana Expertise, how much damage is it dealing? What about if I Power Attack? I'm a little confused on this one.

Well, depending on your Harbinger level, it could be 2d6+1.5x Str mod, possibly +Int mod if you are high enough in Harbinger. Power Attack will give you +3 damage for every -1 you are taking to hit.

If you also have Weapon Finesse and Deadly Agility, you are dealing 2d6+Dex mod, again with the possible + Int mod from Accursed Will. And your Power Attack returns are still 3 to 1.

[Chris Robin R2]

Thanks for that.

[angelpalm]

Some questions in regards to the mystic base class. Is mystic artifice meant to replace needing item creation feats? Sort of like a master craftsman feat as a class ability? I see that the animus class feature already gives you a caster level so I was wondering about this.

Also in regards to the gunsmoke mystic, you don't find the rapid reload feat a bit redundant when you seemingly can already reload any firearm as a free action using a resource that increases as combat progresses?

Unrelated to these previous question, you guys ever think about remaking the Battle Dancer class? I see people asking for a true unarmed initiator and I had already went about sloppily trying to make one myself. That being said, I see there is are full bab psionic/initiators for wisdom and intelligence based characters, you guys thinking of making one based on charisma? Maybe a warlord that gets some pseudo wilder powers? I don't think that there even is a full bab psionic base class as is, so this might be a welcome addition to fill that void.

[Mithril Leaf]

Also in regards to the gunsmoke mystic, you don't find the rapid reload feat a bit redundant when you seemingly can already reload any firearm as a free action using a resource that increases as combat progresses?


Do you really want to have to spend your limited pool of unique abilities every round on reloading, with the limit that sometimes you won't even have enough?

[MilleniaAntares]

Unrelated to these previous question, you guys ever think about remaking the Battle Dancer class? I see people asking for a true unarmed initiator and I had already went about sloppily trying to make one myself. That being said, I see there is are full bab psionic/initiators for wisdom and intelligence based characters, you guys thinking of making one based on charisma? Maybe a warlord that gets some pseudo wilder powers? I don't think that there even is a full bab psionic base class as is, so this might be a welcome addition to fill that void.
I currently run a steelfist commando warlord/rubato bard gestalt.

As long as you don't mind the stealthier aspects of the steelfist commando, both archetypes work rather well as a battle dancer, especially if you add in the Agile Dancer trait. You would also do well to trait in Mithral Current for the steelfist commando, and trait in Broken Blade for the rubato bard.

The only real issue is that they have to wear armor, but given that Perform (Dance) cares not for armor, you'll be fine making your acrobatics checks with Agile Dancer. Plus you can use that appearance-changing enhancement on your armor so it can look as gaudy and skimpy as you please.

[amberlink]

As a Harbinger, can you claim a creature that's already been claimed to get a maneuver back?

[MilleniaAntares]

As a Harbinger, can you claim a creature that's already been claimed to get a maneuver back?
Far as I recall, the answer is "no". That's an intended weakness of the harbinger.

[amberlink]

Far as I recall, the answer is "no". That's an intended weakness of the harbinger.

Huh, seems strange to me that maneuver recovery would get weaker as you go on then, since at level 1-3 you could just keep claiming it due to them no longer being claimed the next round

[Taveena]

Huh, seems strange to me that maneuver recovery would get weaker as you go on then, since at level 1-3 you could just keep claiming it due to them no longer being claimed the next round

You also have more maneuvers readied, though, and the big recovery part of maneuvers is going to come from dropped enemies, while now getting to use your Swift actions on boosts and counters instead of barely being able to keep them claimed.

[angelpalm]

Do you really want to have to spend your limited pool of unique abilities every round on reloading, with the limit that sometimes you won't even have enough?


Welp if you are reloading every round than good for you, that means you are attacking, meanwhile your "limited" pool of animus is building up by a minimum of 1 point and maybe an additional 2 points for that round depending on if you expending a counter/boost and used a strike to attack(spoiler alert, you did).

As far as battle dancer, yeah you can do a bunch of interesting things, IF you are running a gestalt campaign, but that isn't doing anything for the people that just want a single class to use in a regular game.

Also lol at people talking about full attacks being crazy, hell you can move and get four attacks with broken blade/riven hourglass in something like battle dragon stance and get your initiator mod plus either str/dex to damage on top of all those attacks. Then you can take the feat that lets you do all of that off a charge....

[Vhaidara]

As far as battle dancer, yeah you can do a bunch of interesting things, IF you are running a gestalt campaign, but that isn't doing anything for the people that just want a single class to use in a regular game.

That was actually mentioned. Steelfist Commando Warlord, and trait in Mithral Current (probably to replace Steel Serpent)

[angelpalm]

Oh yeah....in regards to the Elemental Glyph class feature, this doesn't affect the initiator does it?

[twas_Brillig]

Welp if you are reloading every round than good for you, that means you are attacking, meanwhile your "limited" pool of animus is building up by a minimum of 1 point and maybe an additional 2 points for that round depending on if you expending a counter/boost and used a strike to attack(spoiler alert, you did).

Also lol at people talking about full attacks being crazy, hell you can move and get four attacks with broken blade/riven hourglass in something like battle dragon stance and get your initiator mod plus either str/dex to damage on top of all those attacks. Then you can take the feat that lets you do all of that off a charge....


... When a mystic enters combat, she gains an animus pool equal to 1 + her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1) at the start of her first turn, and adds one point of animus to her animus pool at the start of each turn thereafter. Her animus pool persists for one minute after the last enemy combatant is defeated or the encounter otherwise ends. At the end of any round in which the mystic initiates a maneuver (a strike, boost, or counter), she adds an additional point of animus to her pool. Certain abilities, such as some class features, maneuvers, and feats, require the mystic to expend points of animus to use. ...
(drawn from the google doc)

You only get one point of additional animus even if you use multiple maneuvers in a round. I think the language here could probably be clearer, since this has come up a few times. If you have a high wisdom score (say 22, middle-lowish level), you get 7 animus to start, and gain 1-2 animus a round. If a combat lasts 5 rounds, that's a budget of around 2.4-3.4 animus a round, 3.3-4.3 if it lasts 3 rounds. While you can use this to full attack until the cows come home, I don't know that it's the most entertaining strategy. Sadly, it probably isn't enough to support a full TWF build.


Oh yeah....in regards to the Elemental Glyph class feature, this doesn't affect the initiator does it?

In Pathfinder, you are your own ally. Although the sight requirement does mean you can't target yourself if you're invisible. :P

[Tuvarkz]

(drawn from the google doc)

You only get one point of additional animus even if you use multiple maneuvers in a round. I think the language here could probably be clearer, since this has come up a few times. If you have a high wisdom score (say 22, middle-lowish level), you get 7 animus to start, and gain 1-2 animus a round. If a combat lasts 5 rounds, that's a budget of around 2.4-3.4 animus a round, 3.3-4.3 if it lasts 3 rounds. While you can use this to full attack until the cows come home, I don't know that it's the most entertaining strategy. Sadly, it probably isn't enough to support a full TWF build.



In Pathfinder, you are your own ally. Although the sight requirement does mean you can't target yourself if you're invisible. :P

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qlj
Apparently you should manage some sort of self-vision when invisible.

[Llyarden]

Some questions in regards to the mystic base class. Is mystic artifice meant to replace needing item creation feats? Sort of like a master craftsman feat as a class ability? I see that the animus class feature already gives you a caster level so I was wondering about this.

I think what it's meant to do is make up for the fact that the Animus class feature doesn't actually give you a caster level to allow you to craft things.

...thing is, in Pathfinder you don't need to meet the minimum CL of an item to craft it; there's a specific FAQ on that subject, if I recall. Which means that Mystic Artifice, which imposes a restriction to that effect on you, makes you worse at crafting things than you would be without it, which somehow I suspect was not the intent of the ability as written.

Or am I missing something obvious about caster level restrictions somewhere?

[Elricaltovilla]

I think what it's meant to do is make up for the fact that the Animus class feature doesn't actually give you a caster level to allow you to craft things.

...thing is, in Pathfinder you don't need to meet the minimum CL of an item to craft it; there's a specific FAQ on that subject, if I recall. Which means that Mystic Artifice, which imposes a restriction to that effect on you, makes you worse at crafting things than you would be without it, which somehow I suspect was not the intent of the ability as written.

Or am I missing something obvious about caster level restrictions somewhere?

If you don't meet a requirement to craft an item it increases the DC by +5 for each requirement that you don't meet. This can add up quickly. In addition, you cannot craft Scrolls, Wands or Staves (any spell completion item really) without having a caster level. No, you can't fudge it. But Mystic Artifice lets you fudge having a caster level. So Mystics can be as good at crafting as wizards and other true spellcasters, despite not being able to cast spells.

It's the same with the Vizier.

[Llyarden]

If you don't meet a requirement to craft an item it increases the DC by +5 for each requirement that you don't meet. This can add up quickly. In addition, you cannot craft Scrolls, Wands or Staves (any spell completion item really) without having a caster level. No, you can't fudge it. But Mystic Artifice lets you fudge having a caster level. So Mystics can be as good at crafting as wizards and other true spellcasters, despite not being able to cast spells.

It's the same with the Vizier.

As far as I can see, all the basic rules say for scrolls, potions and wands is that you need to prepare/know the spell for prepared or spontaneous casters respectively, which the other bit of Mystic Artifice gets around, and I wasn't asking about that part (although I may not have made that clear; my apologies). I don't know of any magic item creation that requires a specific caster level except for items that add numeric bonuses to one thing or another (magic weapons, cloaks of resistance, etc), and those prerequisites can be fudged like normal.

EDIT: I just found the rule I was missing about reducing the caster level of preexisting items; this was what I was missing. Sorry for any confusion.

[amberlink]

If i take a martial tradition, can I apply it to more than one class? For example a base class and then Mage Hunter, What about for unorthodox method?

Don't know if it's too early to ask again, but still wondering about this question, something that would be useful to know soon

[angelpalm]

If you don't meet a requirement to craft an item it increases the DC by +5 for each requirement that you don't meet. This can add up quickly. In addition, you cannot craft Scrolls, Wands or Staves (any spell completion item really) without having a caster level. No, you can't fudge it. But Mystic Artifice lets you fudge having a caster level. So Mystics can be as good at crafting as wizards and other true spellcasters, despite not being able to cast spells.

It's the same with the Vizier.

So losing the mystic artifice class feature has no effect on being able to qualify for item creation feats but will make it harder/impossible to craft wands/potions/scrolls and the like, correct?

Also can we get clarification on the Blade Meditation feature? What exactly does it do? Also when you are granted maneuvers, you pick the maneuvers to be granted or is it from all the ones you know?

Still not sure if Elemental Glyph affects you since it states you target allies you see, and it seems to have a cap based off your initiation modifier. It does seem strange you could make a glyph to improve your allies vision but still remain unable to perceive things yourself.

[Swaoeaeieu]

So losing the mystic artifice class feature has no effect on being able to qualify for item creation feats but will make it harder/impossible to craft wands/potions/scrolls and the like, correct?

Also can we get clarification on the Blade Meditation feature? What exactly does it do? Also when you are granted maneuvers, you pick the maneuvers to be granted or is it from all the ones you know?

Still not sure if Elemental Glyph affects you since it states you target allies you see, and it seems to have a cap based off your initiation modifier. It does seem strange you could make a glyph to improve your allies vision but still remain unable to perceive things yourself.

You have your readied manouvers. at the start of combat you can pick two of them to start with, the rest are always given at random. I write them on a card, shuffle em arround and pick the top one each round.

Blade meditation resets the whole deal. Also does damage to everyone that attacks you.

You can glyph yourself. Allies include yourself.

At least thats what i took from the document, also how i play it on my gunsmoke mystic

[angelpalm]

If you don't meet a requirement to craft an item it increases the DC by +5 for each requirement that you don't meet. This can add up quickly. In addition, you cannot craft Scrolls, Wands or Staves (any spell completion item really) without having a caster level. No, you can't fudge it. But Mystic Artifice lets you fudge having a caster level. So Mystics can be as good at crafting as wizards and other true spellcasters, despite not being able to cast spells.

It's the same with the Vizier.

Another question in regards to the Zealot. Can they use their Martyrdom class feature to redirect damage from their self......sigh.......to their self, and then I guess get a better version of the elans racial ability as a free action every round. I know in a vitalist case, they are always counted as a member of their own collective but how would this work in regards to something like this? Kinda like the share pain/vigor combo except you don't have to actually do anything to get it and it effects everything eventually, not just hp damage.

[ANSeranov]

Another question in regards to the Zealot. Can they use their Martyrdom class feature to redirect damage from their self......sigh.......to their self, and then I guess get a better version of the elans racial ability as a free action every round. I know in a vitalist case, they are always counted as a member of their own collective but how would this work in regards to something like this? Kinda like the share pain/vigor combo except you don't have to actually do anything to get it and it effects everything eventually, not just hp damage.

I asked about using Martyrdom on yourself, and I believe it was Chris who said that no, you can't use Martyrdom to mitigate damage you personally take.

[ATalsen]

If i take a martial tradition, can I apply it to more than one class? For example a base class and then Mage Hunter, What about for unorthodox method?

This would be a good question to ask over on the PoW FAQ thread, but here's what I understand the answer to be:

If you trade out a Discipline (though martial tradition or trait), every instance of that discipline is traded out across all your classes and prestige classes.

For example, if you take Warlord (Golden Lion, Primal Fury, Scarlet Throne, Solar Wind, and Thrashing Dragon) and then Mage Hunter (Scarlet Throne, Steel Serpent, Solar Wind, and Veiled Moon disciplines), and decide to trade Scarlet Throne for Silver Crane via the Empyreal Guardian Martial Tradition, then Scarlet Throne is traded out for both Warlord and Mage Hunter, granting both classes access to Silver Crane maneuvers.

If instead you traded Golden Lion for Silver Crane, then only Warlord would have access to Silver Crane; Mage Hunter (which does not possess Golden Lion) would not gain Silver Crane access.


Now if you are wondering if you could "take the Empyreal Guardian Martial Tradition a second time" to apply it to one of the Mage Hunter disciplines separately, I don’t' know. I'd think the answer was no (because things you can take twice tend to say that explicitly), but it's probably in the realm of 'its up to your DM'.

[angelpalm]

I asked about using Martyrdom on yourself, and I believe it was Chris who said that no, you can't use Martyrdom to mitigate damage you personally take.

You have link to that conversation?

[Kaidinah]

This would be a good question to ask over on the PoW FAQ thread, but here's what I understand the answer to be:

If you trade out a Discipline (though martial tradition or trait), every instance of that discipline is traded out across all your classes and prestige classes.

For example, if you take Warlord (Golden Lion, Primal Fury, Scarlet Throne, Solar Wind, and Thrashing Dragon) and then Mage Hunter (Scarlet Throne, Steel Serpent, Solar Wind, and Veiled Moon disciplines), and decide to trade Scarlet Throne for Silver Crane via the Empyreal Guardian Martial Tradition, then Scarlet Throne is traded out for both Warlord and Mage Hunter, granting both classes access to Silver Crane maneuvers.

If instead you traded Golden Lion for Silver Crane, then only Warlord would have access to Silver Crane; Mage Hunter (which does not possess Golden Lion) would not gain Silver Crane access.


Now if you are wondering if you could "take the Empyreal Guardian Martial Tradition a second time" to apply it to one of the Mage Hunter disciplines separately, I don’t' know. I'd think the answer was no (because things you can take twice tend to say that explicitly), but it's probably in the realm of 'its up to your DM'.
This is a really good question. Kind of vital for all the prcs.

[Diagan]

Soo, idk if this has been answered in a previous thread or not, this hasn't been faq'd yet.

Can a character multiclassed in 2 martial class use one class's recovery mechanic to recover maneuvers granted by the other.

Example. A character with 16 Chr, 3 levels in Warlord and 5 levels in Zealot, using the Brave gambit to charge an enemy succeeds. Can he then recover one of his 3rd level maneuvers learned from the Zealot class, along with any his may have readied from his warlord levels?

I ask because only the acquisition of Initiator Levels in multiclassing are cover in the system and use page of the pfsrd.

[Forrestfire]

A multiclassed initiator has separate pools of readied maneuvers, and only recovers maneuvers from one class by using that class' recovery mechanism.

[Mithril Leaf]

Was there a conclusion reached for the stacking of size increases from Elemental Nimbus Earth and Armory of the Conqueror?

[Forrestfire]

Elemental Nimbus was initially written up with some confusion about how the FAQ Paizo released on size stacking worked; the size increase is just an effective size increase, and the parenthetical clarification causing the confusion will be removed in the final printing. It overlaps with, rather than stacking with Armory of the Conquerer.

[ANSeranov]

You have link to that conversation?

Checking my post history here (where it is conspicuously absent), I may have asked on 4chan, which would mean it's now lost to the ages.

I'm pretty positive it's confirmed not to work on the Zealot themselves, though.

[Mithril Leaf]

Quick question, the answer is probably yes, but I thought I'd make sure.

You can Wild Surge Sleeping Goddess Maneuvers right?

[angelpalm]

Checking my post history here (where it is conspicuously absent), I may have asked on 4chan, which would mean it's now lost to the ages.

I'm pretty positive it's confirmed not to work on the Zealot themselves, though.

Bleh, after an extensive search I found no response from anyone significant, just some nobody saying that it should be okay and a dev repeating the question because they themselves didn't know lol.

[Taveena]

Quick question, the answer is probably yes, but I thought I'd make sure.

You can Wild Surge Sleeping Goddess Maneuvers right?

I don't think the answer IS yes. They're maneuvers. They don't scale based on Manifester level in any way. Wild Surge wouldn't do anything unless it has specific wording to affect it.

[Novawurmson]

Checking my post history here (where it is conspicuously absent), I may have asked on 4chan, which would mean it's now lost to the ages.

I'm pretty positive it's confirmed not to work on the Zealot themselves, though.

This is correct. Martyrdom is only intended to work on other creatures.


Quick question, the answer is probably yes, but I thought I'd make sure.

You can Wild Surge Sleeping Goddess Maneuvers right?

By RAW no. The amount your Sleeping Goddess maneuvers can be augmented is based on your initiator level, not any manifester level you may have. Wild Surge increases your effective manifester level, not initiator level.

It'd be a cool feat/archetype/prestige class, etc., but that's not how it works baseline.

[amberlink]

This would be a good question to ask over on the PoW FAQ thread, but here's what I understand the answer to be:

If you trade out a Discipline (though martial tradition or trait), every instance of that discipline is traded out across all your classes and prestige classes.

For example, if you take Warlord (Golden Lion, Primal Fury, Scarlet Throne, Solar Wind, and Thrashing Dragon) and then Mage Hunter (Scarlet Throne, Steel Serpent, Solar Wind, and Veiled Moon disciplines), and decide to trade Scarlet Throne for Silver Crane via the Empyreal Guardian Martial Tradition, then Scarlet Throne is traded out for both Warlord and Mage Hunter, granting both classes access to Silver Crane maneuvers.

If instead you traded Golden Lion for Silver Crane, then only Warlord would have access to Silver Crane; Mage Hunter (which does not possess Golden Lion) would not gain Silver Crane access.


Now if you are wondering if you could "take the Empyreal Guardian Martial Tradition a second time" to apply it to one of the Mage Hunter disciplines separately, I don’t' know. I'd think the answer was no (because things you can take twice tend to say that explicitly), but it's probably in the realm of 'its up to your DM'.

The trading out the same disciplines for the same ones is what I meant yeah, though I'll ask over there for more confirmation sure

[charcoalninja]

Just note on Mystic Artiface. Yes, you don't have a requirement for say CL that's a +5 DC to craft the item, but more importantly you can't actually take any crafting feats without a caster level. So that's what Mystic Artiface especially does.

[Mithril Leaf]

By RAW no. The amount your Sleeping Goddess maneuvers can be augmented is based on your initiator level, not any manifester level you may have. Wild Surge increases your effective manifester level, not initiator level.

It'd be a cool feat/archetype/prestige class, etc., but that's not how it works baseline.

Yeah, looking at it that makes sense. Anyone know if there's any plans to allow the two to work together is some fashion? Maybe via Magic Item, like a sword of surges or something.

[angelpalm]

Just note on Mystic Artiface. Yes, you don't have a requirement for say CL that's a +5 DC to craft the item, but more importantly you can't actually take any crafting feats without a caster level. So that's what Mystic Artiface especially does.

Wait...wut?

Are you a dev on this? Because now I am confused, does this whole paragraph not apply anymore?


Animus (Su): A mystic’s martial prowess is in part fueled by a reservoir of roiling, turbulent energy within her soul, and the passion and danger of combat causes this arcane energy to overflow outwards. This power, called animus, waxes and wanes with a mystic’s use of her maneuvers in battle. Outside combat, a mystic has no animus to spend, but her inner power can still be used for more subtle arcane arts. Her levels in mystic count as arcane spellcaster levels for the purposes of qualifying for prerequisites (such as those of item creation feats or the Arcane Strike feat), and if a mystic ever develops arcane spellcasting from another class, she may add her mystic level to her levels in that class to determine her overall caster level for the purposes of item creation feats.

[ATalsen]

Just note on Mystic Artiface. Yes, you don't have a requirement for say CL that's a +5 DC to craft the item, but more importantly you can't actually take any crafting feats without a caster level. So that's what Mystic Artiface especially does.

Wait...wut?
Are you a dev on this? Because now I am confused, does this whole paragraph not apply anymore?


Just a guess, but I think charcoalninja intends to indicate that Caster Level itself is not considered a "Prerequisite", thus not meeting minimum caster level does NOT impose a +5 to the DC.

(However, some items do include caster level as a prerequisite, such as Weapon and Armor where your caster level must be 3x the Plus of the item, but that’s called out specially as an *extra* prerequisite in the rules, thus it’s not assumed that Caster Level is normally a prerequisite in the sense that not having it will impose a +5 crafting DC).


Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor.


For the second part I think charcoalninja is saying that Mystic Artiface provides a caster level so that you may take crafting feats, since crafting feats do have a requirement of a caster level in order to take them…



And, in my own thoughts, since some items DO have a caster level requirement, having one from Mystic seems quite useful for crafting those types of items.

So I think you guys are actually in agreement :)

[angelpalm]

One of us is clearly stating that they believe you can't qualify for item creation feats without the mystic artifice class feature while the other quoted directly from the mystics doc showing how it gets a caster level from an entirely different class feature. How are we in agreement?

Nvm.....I already got my answer from an actual dev, just don't like people spreading miss information because it just makes my job as a DM that much more difficult.

[ATalsen]

How are we in agreement?

Sorry, I just thought you were both basically in agreement that the Mystic got a caster level, and that the caster level was useful for something.

I wasn't looking at the source of said caster level.

[twas_Brillig]

Am I missing something, or does learning a Sleeping Goddess maneuver automatically give you power points? I.e. is their subtlety to the language that means you need to wait to recover power points before you gain them from knowing a SG maneuver? As is, it looks like in some cases Aegii can use Augment Suit to pick up Initiator's Soul for free power points.


Nvm.....I already got my answer from an actual dev, just don't like people spreading miss information because it just makes my job as a DM that much more difficult.

For the sake of helping the inevitable future googlers, would you mind linking said dev ruling?

[Taveena]

Am I missing something, or does learning a Sleeping Goddess maneuver automatically give you power points? I.e. is their subtlety to the language that means you need to wait to recover power points before you gain them from knowing a SG maneuver? As is, it looks like in some cases Aegii can use Augment Suit to pick up Initiator's Soul for free power points.


I mean... yes, Sleeping Goddess explicitly gives you power points equal to the highest level Sleeping Goddess maneuver or stance you know, +1 for each Sleeping Goddess maneuver beyond that. An Aegis does indeed get power points if they presently know SG maneuvers.

[Galacktic]

Question about Advanced Study in general (also where is this Hunting Zephyr? I can't find it!)

I use a Warsoul, so up to 6th level maneuvers at max. If I use Advanced Study, would that allow me to learn maneuvers past that, since they only have requisites of initiator level and enough other maneuvers known? I'm going to assume no, but I wanted clarification.

[Vhaidara]

Question about Advanced Study in general (also where is this Hunting Zephyr? I can't find it!)

I use a Warsoul, so up to 6th level maneuvers at max. If I use Advanced Study, would that allow me to learn maneuvers past that, since they only have requisites of initiator level and enough other maneuvers known? I'm going to assume no, but I wanted clarification.

Hunting Zephyr is in Tempest Gale, level 7 Strike.

And Advanced Study has been called out as allowing you to ignore the table. Same thing for prestige classes. The table only limits your maneuvers gained from class levels.

[Elricaltovilla]

Question about Advanced Study in general (also where is this Hunting Zephyr? I can't find it!)

I use a Warsoul, so up to 6th level maneuvers at max. If I use Advanced Study, would that allow me to learn maneuvers past that, since they only have requisites of initiator level and enough other maneuvers known? I'm going to assume no, but I wanted clarification.

Both the Advanced Study feat and taking levels of Initiating Prestige Classes allow you to exceed the archetype's normal cap on highest level maneuver known.

[amberlink]

So looking at the Sleeping Goddess Empowerment...does anything that helps you learn higher blade skills improve its power? It seems to be one of the few blade skill that scale, so I was wondering if Fighter's Blade applied to it

In addition, looking at the Void Prophet, is it intended for them to still take the penalty for a collective member dying? And why does it say "her void prophet initiation modifier." Is it ever possible to end up with another initiation modifier? I know certain artchtypes can, just wondering if there's any other way. Also what happens if I took Vitalist and Zealot? How would the collective work? And what would happen if I was a Void Prophet Life Leech? Which unwilling participant would be used?

[angelpalm]

Am I missing something, or does learning a Sleeping Goddess maneuver automatically give you power points? I.e. is their subtlety to the language that means you need to wait to recover power points before you gain them from knowing a SG maneuver? As is, it looks like in some cases Aegii can use Augment Suit to pick up Initiator's Soul for free power points.



For the sake of helping the inevitable future googlers, would you mind linking said dev ruling?

Now that I go back and read it(page 5....) I am not so sure, there didn't really seem to be any clarification and to be honest caused me more confusion as to the purpose of Mystic artifice. Like I quoted, you get a caster level from the animus class feature and it specifically states that you can use that to qualify for feats and it stacks with actual caster levels.


It seems like mystic artifice lets you do the same thing, use your initiator modifier as caster levels when making items(like I said before, a lot of redundancy with this class) but it seems like you can also make spell completion/trigger items without knowing the spells. That last part seems to be the only actual benefit from that class feature since your caster level from animus and mystic artifice overlap and deal with needing minimum caster levels for items like an Amulet of Mighty Fists(which state you must have a caster level 3x what the bonus you are enchanting it with).

[Forrestfire]

Technically speaking, they do two different things. Animus gives you a caster level that allows you to take the feats you need:


Her levels in mystic count as arcane spellcaster levels for the purposes of qualifying for prerequisites (such as those of item creation feats or the Arcane Strike feat), and if a mystic ever develops arcane spellcasting from another class, she may add her mystic level to her levels in that class to determine her overall caster level for the purposes of item creation feats.

This is equal to your mystic level. You get this at 1st level, allowing you to grab item creation feats before Mystic Artifice comes online. What Mystic Artifice does is slightly different:


When crafting an item, the mystic uses her initiator level as her caster level to determine how potent a creation she can make. If her initiator level does not equal the minimum caster level to make the item, then she cannot create the item. When attempting to create a magical item for which she does not possess a prerequisite spell, the mystic can attempt to replicate the spell through her innate power with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the level of the spell being replicated). If successful, she can create the item as if she had cast the prerequisite spell.

Mystic Artifice does three important things:

You get a caster level equal to your initiator level for the purposes of crafting items. This isn't necessarily the same level as the one you got from Animus; it scales by IL, so if you PrC out or multiclass, you can still craft. However, you would lose scaling on your CL from Animus, since that one is based on mystic levels (which might make you unable to take later item creation feats you want).
When making an item using Mystic Artifice, you're limited to your CL, if the item has a minimum CL needed to make it (such as with a scroll, wand, staff, or magic weapon/armor). If you weren't, then you'd be able to use its spell-emulation abilities to do things like crafting wish scrolls the moment you hit level 4 by emulating the spell.
You can make a Spellcraft check (DC scaling from 15 to 24) to emulate a spell while crafting. This keeps the DC from increasing by 5 per prerequisite you don't have, because you emulated the spells to craft the item. It also lets you craft spell trigger and completion items, even though normally a noncasting crafter can't do that.

[angelpalm]

Technically speaking, they do two different things. Animus gives you a caster level that allows you to take the feats you need:



This is equal to your mystic level. You get this at 1st level, allowing you to grab item creation feats before Mystic Artifice comes online. What Mystic Artifice does is slightly different:



Mystic Artifice does three important things:

You get a caster level equal to your initiator level for the purposes of crafting items. This isn't necessarily the same level as the one you got from Animus; it scales by IL, so if you PrC out or multiclass, you can still craft. However, you would lose scaling on your CL from Animus, since that one is based on mystic levels (which might make you unable to take later item creation feats you want).
When making an item using Mystic Artifice, you're limited to your CL, if the item has a minimum CL needed to make it (such as with a scroll, wand, staff, or magic weapon/armor). If you weren't, then you'd be able to use its spell-emulation abilities to do things like crafting wish scrolls the moment you hit level 4 by emulating the spell.
You can make a Spellcraft check (DC scaling from 15 to 24) to emulate a spell while crafting. This keeps the DC from increasing by 5 per prerequisite you don't have, because you emulated the spells to craft the item. It also lets you craft spell trigger and completion items, even though normally a noncasting crafter can't do that.



Yeah I didn't think about the first part with multiclassing, that is a vary good point, but the second point kind of mixes in with the first one since it only seems to be useful if again, you multiclass out since you still get a caster level from animus........not sure why everyone seems so intent on explaining the base magic crafting rules though.

[amberlink]

In addition to my previous unanswered questions...have another one from the first Path of War, what happens if you enter a prestige class through Martial Training? are you still limited to maneuver level of the highest feat? Or is it based on initiator level? Also, do prestige classes add half or full level to your initiator level for Martial Training?

[Thealtruistorc]

Out of curiosity, what other disciplines do you have planned for PoW? I'm particularly interested in seeing more extraordinary ones and others that involve more unusual weapons.

Here's what I have thought of:
A grappling discipline
A flail-based discipline with a lot of combat maneuvers (think Ivy from soul calibur)
A "drunken master"-esque style, maybe countering other martial initiators
A mobile archery discipline based on trick shots
A discipline dedicated to using only a single attack
A discipline that is based around technological equipment and getting the most out of it.

[Tuvarkz]

Out of curiosity, what other disciplines do you have planned for PoW? I'm particularly interested in seeing more extraordinary ones and others that involve more unusual weapons.

Here's what I have thought of:
A grappling discipline
A flail-based discipline with a lot of combat maneuvers (think Ivy from soul calibur)
A "drunken master"-esque style, maybe countering other martial initiators
A mobile archery discipline based on trick shots
A discipline dedicated to using only a single attack
A discipline that is based around technological equipment and getting the most out of it.

Grappling: Broken Blade already does this with quite a lot of stuff, and is likely the most suited for it.
Combat Maneuvers: BB maneuvers now work with any weapon, unless the maneuver explicitly states otherwise.
Mobile Archery+Trick Shots: This one is clearly tempest gale
Single Attack: Look at Scarlet Throne's Rising Zenith line
Tech Equipment: Wouldn't really feel like a martial discipline imho, but something more akin to Alchemist extracts?

[Dusk Eclipse]

'We already have one from your list, Tempest Gale (check the playtest) is the trick shot focused discipline.

[Kaidinah]

I want to see minimal, if any, new martial disciplines in the future releases. Besides one or 2 concepts, it is easy to cover most things a player could want with the abundance of disciplines currently released or being released in PoW: E.

[ANSeranov]

Broken Blade has like 3 maneuvers/stances that use/take advantage of grappling. Steel Serpent has a handful, too. It's not really a well-supported option in PoW (outside of the Fiendbound Marauder) and it's probably because grappling is kind of a cluster****.

[Vhaidara]

Tempest Gale question: Does Disarming Shot do damage? The short description says yes, but the long just says that you make a ranged disarm attempt, which wouldn't deal any damage

[Elricaltovilla]

Broken Blade has like 3 maneuvers/stances that use/take advantage of grappling. Steel Serpent has a handful, too. It's not really a well-supported option in PoW (outside of the Fiendbound Marauder) and it's probably because grappling is kind of a cluster****.

The best way to do a grappling discipline, if we were to do one, would honestly be to just ignore grappling itself and try to replicate its effects via maneuvers. The problem is that it then wouldn't synergize with anything that is actual grappling. But actual grappling is too much of a hassle to actually deal with.


Tempest Gale question: Does Disarming Shot do damage? The short description says yes, but the long just says that you make a ranged disarm attempt, which wouldn't deal any damage

Well, at this time it only disarms, no damage. I keep going back and forth on the issue though.

[ANSeranov]

The best way to do a grappling discipline, if we were to do one, would honestly be to just ignore grappling itself and try to replicate its effects via maneuvers. The problem is that it then wouldn't synergize with anything that is actual grappling. But actual grappling is too much of a hassle to actually deal with.

Yeah, pretty much. My intention on my Fiendbound Marauder is to use maneuvers and then use the grab on the Fiend's Grip to tack a free grapple check on top of it, then release the grapple at the beginning of the next turn, use another maneuver and repeat. It'll mostly just help weaken my target on their own turn... probably. I'm still trying to wrap my head around grappling as a whole.

[ICN]

It would be nice if Hunting Zephyr (in Tempest Gale) got a line explicitly forbidding it from working with the Vorpal special quality or similar effects, as otherwise combining them makes the strike a bit too good imo.

[Elricaltovilla]

It would be nice if Hunting Zephyr (in Tempest Gale) got a line explicitly forbidding it from working with the Vorpal special quality or similar effects, as otherwise combining them makes the strike a bit too good imo.

It'll be reworded in time for the full PDF.

[tekevil]

I noticed that there has been almost no feedback on the Martial Traditions to be included in Path of War: Expanded.

I decided to look into them and found that the lore and Oaths are all both cool and pretty reasonable.

The allegiance benefits though range from stuff like

Cirque de la Fumée (Tempest Gale):In addition to access to the Tempest Gale discipline (exchanging a discipline of their choice), Harlequins of the Cirque de la Fumée do not provoke attacks of opportunity for making ranged attacks while threatened, provided the attack is made with a thrown weapon. Additionally, they benefit from a +2 insight bonus to Perform (Comedy), Sense Motive, and Sleight of Hand checks.

or
Sultanate of Beggars: In addition to access to the Broken Blade discipline (exchanging a discipline of their choice), Sultans of the Sultanate of Beggars do not suffer the attack penalties associated with using improvised weaponry, may treat improvised weapons as monk weapons for the purposes of class features and feats that interact with monk weapons, and enjoy a +4 anarchic bonus to CMD against bull rush attempts and grapples.

A Sultan who breaks his oath (such as by permitting slavery) loses his bonus to CMD, but not the bonuses associated with improvised weapons, until such a time as he atones by meditating for seven days and nights on the nature of his crime, or else by donating 100 gp per level (or equivalent service) to the poor and destitute. He may also find himself targeted for an educational beating by his fellow Sultans.

Which are fun and mostly harmless in terms of player power.

to


Reverents of the Lance: In addition to access to the Piercing Thunder discipline (exchanging a discipline of their choice), Reverents of the Lance threaten adjacent creatures while using a weapon from the spear or polearm weapon groups that has reach. Furthermore, they are always aware of the exact position of any outsiders with the chaotic and/or evil subtypes within 60 ft. of themselves and may not be surprised by such beings (such outsiders still benefit from concealment, if they have it).

or

Cagebreakers: In addition to access to the Elemental Flux discipline (exchanging a discipline of their choice), Cagebreakers may channel part of Rumor’s unbridled chaotic spirit into a rebel yell. Once per encounter, as a swift action, the Cagebreaker lets out a wild cry; all allies (including the Cagebreaker) within sixty feet that can hear him gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls for a number of rounds equal to the Cagebreaker’s character level and may immediately roll new saving throws against any and all undesired mind-affecting spells or abilities affecting them (such as charm person or cause fear), provided the chosen abilities allow a saving throw.

Which are on par with some of the strongest feats available through Dreamscarred Press materials.

I know the allegiance benefits are optional, but I know the people at my table would prefer that each Tradition's allegiance benefit be roughly on par with one another. Supposing they were rewrote to all be similar power level would you prefer they all be buffed up to be powerhouses Cagebreaker or Reverent Lance level or would you prefer the benefits be focused on enhancing underused combat styles or fun/cool mechanics like Thrashing Dragon's allegiance benefit?

Pros and Cons as I see them of Traditions as I see them now

Pros:
-Do not cost a trait or a feat
-Give you a discipline that you want
-Give you an allegiance benefit
-Almost all the oaths are very easy to abide by (Hate and kill Demons? I was probably gonna do that anyway)
-Give you something fun to roleplay and helps guide your character backstory

Cons:
-If the DM chooses to he can use the organization to get you to do things
-You have an oath
-It may restrict some of your build options (Hard to be a Barbarian Black Thorn Knight)

In my eye, since the pros outweigh the cons and I don't believe players should have access to super feats for free at level one I would prefer to see allegiance benefits brought down in power level to be similar to the mentioned Traditions. I'd rather be able to tell players that this book is entirely legal instead of saying it's legal except for X, Y, and Z options.

[ANSeranov]

I absolutely adore the Steel Serpent order (Ordre des Repas Exotiques) for both its bonus (immunity to poison and disease from food/drink, +2 on all knowledge checks to identify creatures AND those checks can be made untrained) and the fact that the entire order is notorious because sentient creatures are terrified that its members will legit eat them. They'll cook them first!

Members also make for a fantastic party chef.

[tekevil]

I actually almost used the Steel Serpent Tradition as an example of a tradition with an appropriate allegiance bonus. I quite like them too :)

[MilleniaAntares]

Broken Blade has like 3 maneuvers/stances that use/take advantage of grappling. Steel Serpent has a handful, too. It's not really a well-supported option in PoW (outside of the Fiendbound Marauder) and it's probably because grappling is kind of a cluster****.
Grappling is perfectly well supported, as you only need to get Greater Grapple (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-grapple-combat---final) and its prerequisites.

Once you use your initial standard action to grapple a creature (and succeed), afterwards you can use a move action to maintain your grapple (and move/harm/pin as normal), and then use a standard action and a swift to use maneuvers while grappling.

Even better, if you're in Steel Coils stance, you'll end up doing 4d6+strength damage as a move action, which means you can do it twice per turn and really put the hurt on the poor person in your grip.

In addition, a steelfist commando with Steel Grappler's Attitude, Gladiator Presence, and Grappler Gambit adds their charisma mod three times (untyped, morale, luck) to their CMB, and twice (untyped, morale) to their CMD.

At this point, I don't think a grappler discipline is really needed, as both Broken Blade and Steel Serpent support it quite well, and other disciplines may provide ancillary benefits through strikes and boosts.

Is there anything in particular you think the current disciplines are missing?

[NamelessNPC]

Hey, I have some questions that are kind of all over the place, maybe you can help me:

1- when using the Iron Tortoise line of counters that let you make an attack roll to "block" an attack, such as Iron Shell or Defensive Shell, do you add the STR bonus to the roll, or is it just 1d20+shield bonus?

2- In the 2nd level Sleeping goddess boost Reactive Reversion there's this line "You may instead teleport back to the marked space as a free action, even if it is not your turn, any time during the next round". What does "instead" mean in this context?

3- Shouldn't the sleeping goddess style feats be psionic feats?

4- And now for a different thing altogether. Is this passed the point where playtest feedback would help? I'm currently playing a pathwalker 4 going for awakened blade, using mainly sleeping goddess maneuvers, and another one of the players has a monk 1/stalker 3 focused in shattered mirror. Would you like some feedback?

[Sayt]

Hey, I have some questions that are kind of all over the place, maybe you can help me:

1- when using the Iron Tortoise line of counters that let you make an attack roll to "block" an attack, such as Iron Shell or Defensive Shell, do you add the STR bonus to the roll, or is it just 1d20+shield bonus?


Iron Shell specifically mentions making a Shield Bash plus shield AC, which means you may add your Strength (or Dex, if you have finesse and a light shield, IIRC, anyway) modifier to the check. Steel and Adamantine shell explicitly call for "an opposed attack roll using Base Attack Bonus plus shield bonus.", which indicates to me that you don't get your strength modifier. That said, I'd bring this up in the FAQ thread.

[M3mentoMori]

Does Shadow Pin (a 5th level Cursed Razor Counter) negate/suppress/dispel magical flying when it causes someone to fall?

Also, has there been any word on what's happening with the update of the Harbinger?

I apologize if these have been asked before.

[MilleniaAntares]

Harbinger has been released, so its doc will no longer be updated. Go buy it!

[Captain Morgan]

It's been released , but there is at least 1 change confirmed between the version available to purchase since April and the version coming out in PoW:E.

[amberlink]

It's been released , but there is at least 1 change confirmed between the version available to purchase since April and the version coming out in PoW:E.

What change is that?

[tekevil]

My guess is that it's something that every review I read had in common independently of eachother.

That one class feature that turns Harbingers into ranged characters around level 12.

[MilleniaAntares]

Tenebrous Reach?

[tekevil]

Yeah, that's the one. Tenebrous Reach.

[Captain Morgan]

Yeah, that's the one. Tenebrous Reach.

Yup, that's the one. I don't think there are other big changes but I wouldn't be surprised if some maneuvers got tweaked.

[tekevil]

Personally I'd just like to see Harbie get a little less bonuses to saves.

[Lord_Gareth]

Personally I'd just like to see Harbie get a little less bonuses to saves.

Brosef their bonuses to saves are entirely gone.

[tekevil]

Meant DCs, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19569726&postcount=1041) my bad on that slip

[Captain Morgan]

Meant DCs, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19569726&postcount=1041) my bad on that slip

Harbinger also needs to land an attack roll, be flanking, and be in one of it's weakest stances for all that to be true. The chance of missing the swing, or soaking a hit because you're up close and don't have Infinity Mirror Stance active, seems balanced with a 15-30% increase in your save DCs.

A wizard can drop SoD from a hundred feet away, while maintaining flight, greater invisibility, mirror image, or whatever combination of buffs they desire. They also usually have more options at their disposal than single target save spells. Crowd control spells, walls, summons, and so on. If a boss monster has high enough saves the Harbinger won't be doing well despite his DC boosts, where wizards can avoid targeting saves at all.

(I guess wizards do have spell resistance to deal with sometimes.)

[CGNefarious]

There was also a proposed change to the Crimson Countess' 15th level Blood Pool, allowing them to turn into a mist instead of just gaining fast healing.

[tekevil]

Harbinger also needs to land an attack roll, be flanking, and be in one of it's weakest stances for all that to be true. The chance of missing the swing, or soaking a hit because you're up close and don't have Infinity Mirror Stance active, seems balanced with a 15-30% increase in your save DCs.

A wizard can drop SoD from a hundred feet away, while maintaining flight, greater invisibility, mirror image, or whatever combination of buffs they desire. They also usually have more options at their disposal than single target save spells. Crowd control spells, walls, summons, and so on. If a boss monster has high enough saves the Harbinger won't be doing well despite his DC boosts, where wizards can avoid targeting saves at all.

(I guess wizards do have spell resistance to deal with sometimes.)

Land an Attack roll: My Harby with base 14 str was landing attacks against CR appropriate foes on 5's.
Be Flanking: With Fly by attack, the speed, and a reach weapon this was easy as pie. In addition Path of War itself makes flanks incredibly easy and safe to get into with even a modicum of teamwork.
Weakest Stances: It's not their strongest, but to call it among the weakest? Sure man. Even without that stance they still are running pretty dang high DCs at +4-6 higher.

Please don't invoke Schroedinger's wizard either, in Pathfinder discussions it's the equivalent of calling someone a Nazi. Just because a Wizard is Tier one doesn't mean every class needs to be Tier one.

If you don't like me comparing the DCs to Full caster DCs I can instead compare them to Psion, Cryptic, Kineticist, and many other classes DCs and still find it significantly higher.

[Kaidinah]

I noticed that there has been almost no feedback on the Martial Traditions to be included in Path of War: Expanded.

I decided to look into them and found that the lore and Oaths are all both cool and pretty reasonable.

The allegiance benefits though range from stuff like

Cirque de la Fumée (Tempest Gale):In addition to access to the Tempest Gale discipline (exchanging a discipline of their choice), Harlequins of the Cirque de la Fumée do not provoke attacks of opportunity for making ranged attacks while threatened, provided the attack is made with a thrown weapon. Additionally, they benefit from a +2 insight bonus to Perform (Comedy), Sense Motive, and Sleight of Hand checks.

or
Sultanate of Beggars: In addition to access to the Broken Blade discipline (exchanging a discipline of their choice), Sultans of the Sultanate of Beggars do not suffer the attack penalties associated with using improvised weaponry, may treat improvised weapons as monk weapons for the purposes of class features and feats that interact with monk weapons, and enjoy a +4 anarchic bonus to CMD against bull rush attempts and grapples.

A Sultan who breaks his oath (such as by permitting slavery) loses his bonus to CMD, but not the bonuses associated with improvised weapons, until such a time as he atones by meditating for seven days and nights on the nature of his crime, or else by donating 100 gp per level (or equivalent service) to the poor and destitute. He may also find himself targeted for an educational beating by his fellow Sultans.

Which are fun and mostly harmless in terms of player power.

to


Reverents of the Lance: In addition to access to the Piercing Thunder discipline (exchanging a discipline of their choice), Reverents of the Lance threaten adjacent creatures while using a weapon from the spear or polearm weapon groups that has reach. Furthermore, they are always aware of the exact position of any outsiders with the chaotic and/or evil subtypes within 60 ft. of themselves and may not be surprised by such beings (such outsiders still benefit from concealment, if they have it).

or

Cagebreakers: In addition to access to the Elemental Flux discipline (exchanging a discipline of their choice), Cagebreakers may channel part of Rumor’s unbridled chaotic spirit into a rebel yell. Once per encounter, as a swift action, the Cagebreaker lets out a wild cry; all allies (including the Cagebreaker) within sixty feet that can hear him gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls for a number of rounds equal to the Cagebreaker’s character level and may immediately roll new saving throws against any and all undesired mind-affecting spells or abilities affecting them (such as charm person or cause fear), provided the chosen abilities allow a saving throw.

Which are on par with some of the strongest feats available through Dreamscarred Press materials.

I know the allegiance benefits are optional, but I know the people at my table would prefer that each Tradition's allegiance benefit be roughly on par with one another. Supposing they were rewrote to all be similar power level would you prefer they all be buffed up to be powerhouses Cagebreaker or Reverent Lance level or would you prefer the benefits be focused on enhancing underused combat styles or fun/cool mechanics like Thrashing Dragon's allegiance benefit?

Pros and Cons as I see them of Traditions as I see them now

Pros:
-Do not cost a trait or a feat
-Give you a discipline that you want
-Give you an allegiance benefit
-Almost all the oaths are very easy to abide by (Hate and kill Demons? I was probably gonna do that anyway)
-Give you something fun to roleplay and helps guide your character backstory

Cons:
-If the DM chooses to he can use the organization to get you to do things
-You have an oath
-It may restrict some of your build options (Hard to be a Barbarian Black Thorn Knight)

In my eye, since the pros outweigh the cons and I don't believe players should have access to super feats for free at level one I would prefer to see allegiance benefits brought down in power level to be similar to the mentioned Traditions. I'd rather be able to tell players that this book is entirely legal instead of saying it's legal except for X, Y, and Z options.


I absolutely adore the Steel Serpent order (Ordre des Repas Exotiques) for both its bonus (immunity to poison and disease from food/drink, +2 on all knowledge checks to identify creatures AND those checks can be made untrained) and the fact that the entire order is notorious because sentient creatures are terrified that its members will legit eat them. They'll cook them first!

Members also make for a fantastic party chef.My thoughts on the matter are that currently, not all allegiance benefits are created equal. In some cases, this is very okay, since being a Quill is pretty hard, so getting a +2 will save is pretty nice compared to other tradition's situational save bonuses.

Order des Repas Exotiques, Order of the Arrows, or the Sultanate of Beggars have probably the best kind of allegiance benfit though. They give you a lot (Especially the Sultanate), but that "a lot" is just a lot of cool stuff, or stuff that buffs a bad weapon group to decent or good (Sultanate does this). Cirque makes thrown weapons not as suck as much, without wasting a feat. Lens Makers buff up sleight of hand and sword canes.

Cagebreakers on the other hand feels stronger than a majority of boosts. It grants a very strong reroll effect, and a decently long lasting typless bonus to attack rolls. The reroll feels significantly stronger than most allegiance benefits. Reverents of the Lance take one of the strongest combat styles in the game, and buffs it up while also granting great benefits against chaotic and/or evil outsiders (So even Azata, and such).

[amberlink]

Do archtypes gain any benefit from initiator level in regards to which level maneuvers they can gain? Such that say I had 10 levels of some other class, and then took a level or two of an archtype that uses the table, would I still be limited to level 1 maneuvers?

[Nyaa]

Do archtypes gain any benefit from initiator level in regards to which level maneuvers they can gain? Such that say I had 10 levels of some other class, and then took a level or two of an archtype that uses the table, would I still be limited to level 1 maneuvers?

I'd guess they do, but with 10/1 levels they'd be limited to level 2 maneuvers (IL 6 on archetypes table).

[tekevil]

Can intimidating force, Demorallizing Roar, and other similar counters stop attacks from enemies immune to mind effecting effects?

Stuff like Golems, mindless Undead, Oozes, ect.

[Captain Morgan]

Land an Attack roll: My Harby with base 14 str was landing attacks against CR appropriate foes on 5's.

Which means that 20% of the time you're missing, if you need a 5 or higher to hit. So having your DCs 20% harder to pass seems very well balanced at first glance. (Unless I'm missing something about how 2 separate d20 rolls interact with each other. I am not an expert in table top statistics.)



Be Flanking: With Fly by attack, the speed, and a reach weapon this was easy as pie. In addition Path of War itself makes flanks incredibly easy and safe to get into with even a modicum of teamwork.

Sure, you can set it up to apply in a lot of cases, perhaps even most cases. But probably not all cases, and you're putting yourself in more danger than the wizard to do it.

(And there's a decent chance a reach weapon isn't a discipline weapon for you, unless you invest a feat to make it one or only use Cursed Razor. Which is perfectly valid to do, but that's more resource expenditure.)


Weakest Stances: It's not their strongest, but to call it among the weakest? Sure man. Even without that stance they still are running pretty dang high DCs at +4-6 higher.

A 10% reduction in saves is awesome, but most of the stances available to the Harbi are awesome, especially past level 1. If an opponent(s) is scary enough to make me feel like I need a 10% reduction in saves, it's probably scary enough to make me want Mirror Images up in case it goes after me. If it's a caster I may care more about being able to 5 foot step after it, or I may need blind sense or buff sharing instead. Aura of Misfortune is a solid weapon to have in the aresenal, but there is an opportunity cost to use it.


Please don't invoke Schroedinger's wizard either, in Pathfinder discussions it's the equivalent of calling someone a Nazi. Just because a Wizard is Tier one doesn't mean every class needs to be Tier one.

If you don't like me comparing the DCs to Full caster DCs I can instead compare them to Psion, Cryptic, Kineticist, and many other classes DCs and still find it significantly higher.

I think this comparison holds true for more than just the wizard. Probably most full casters, if they aren't trying to do the battle cleric thing. A Harbinger can push it's single target DCs really high. But looking solely at it's 4 disciplines, it doesn't have tons of ways to force a dozen enemies to take massive damage from a blast spell, or shut down entire crowds via a Greater Forbid Action. It may be able to make a single target DC higher than a T1 class. That does make it a T1 class. Because unlike the T1 class, the Harbi:

--Is expected to get closer to harm's way.
-- Has to actually land an attack roll.
-- Is probably more MAD than the T1 classes, and without an extremely generous point buy likely means an INT that is a point or two lower.
--Can only cripple one or two enemies a round, until it gets to very high levels of maneuvers.
--Lacks other world shaping effects.

Harbingers can get some sweet utility, but they simply don't have the versatility of a Tier 1 caster. You could make a case for T2, as (like spontaneous casters) they have their choice of some really awesome powers, but can't use EVERY power. But even then, most of those powers are very limited to combat.

Also, I'm sensing some hostility. I'm not looking to cause any offense here. I just honestly don't think the Harbi having such high DCs is a big deal when you compare classes outside of the vacuum. :smallsmile:

[tekevil]

If you can tell me any other classes from DSP or Paizo that gets such huge bonuses to DCs I will concede. Cryptics, Kineticists, Many Veils, and other effects that key DCs off of attacks all still run the normal DC calculation formula.

I don't believe any of them are tier one either.

Edit: For reference my Harbinger was PB 20, which is generally the assumed PB.

[Captain Morgan]

If you can tell me any other classes from DSP or Paizo that gets such huge bonuses to DCs I will concede

But that's not my argument. My argument is that the Harbi gets huge bonuses to DCs and that's OK. The other classes almost universally have other advantages that make up for this. At a very basic mathematical level, a 20% chance to miss with your attack roll very cleanly offsets the DC being 20% harder to pass. The remaining 5-10% can be offset by things like the Harbinger not being able to shut down a room with black tentacles. Or summon other monsters to provide distractions, meet shields, damage, and utility.

Or having to be in close quarters. Assuming it is fighting something threatening, it is quite likely going to be within that things move increment, and open to counter attack, even with flyby. Or if the opponent is trying to stay out of range and used ranged attacks. Harbi can close that distance, but it can't always close and use a save or suck on the same turn. Casters can quite often zorch things at functionally any range.

Or having to flank. Flanking isn't always possible. Maybe your allies having clicked through on initiative yet. Maybe the enemy is using hit and run tactics themselves, or has otherwise figured out a way to spread you out.

Other initiators don't get as high DCs, but stuff like the Warlorld and Warder are probably focused on raw damage over save or sucks anyway, and the Harbi has a hard time keeping up there.

I can't comment on the Psionic stuff. My DSP exposure is mostly limited to Path of War. But the Paizo classes that focus the most on DCs simply don't need DCs as high as the Harbinger, for the reasons I outlined above.

(Side note: you mentioned the Kineticist a couple of times. Aside from many people seeming to think the class isn't as functional as it could be, I'm under the impression it's big focus is saveless blaster damage, with only the occasional Infusion needing a save. That doesn't strike me as a particularly relevant class to compare to.)

[amberlink]

Thrashing Dragon mentions that it can be used while fighting with natural weapons, what all do they allow you to use? Like can swift claws and the two level 1 stances be used with claws?

[MilleniaAntares]

Thrashing Dragon mentions that it can be used while fighting with natural weapons, what all do they allow you to use? Like can swift claws and the two level 1 stances be used with claws?
Most of the melee disciplines can be used with natural weapons.

And yes, as long as you have two claws, you can use the stances and the Swift Claws maneuver.

[Mithril Leaf]

If you can tell me any other classes from DSP or Paizo that gets such huge bonuses to DCs I will concede. Cryptics, Kineticists, Many Veils, and other effects that key DCs off of attacks all still run the normal DC calculation formula.

I don't believe any of them are tier one either.

Edit: For reference my Harbinger was PB 20, which is generally the assumed PB.

Wilder. They can easily rock a Save DC well above the bell curve.

[Lord_Gareth]

(Side note: you mentioned the Kineticist a couple of times. Aside from many people seeming to think the class isn't as functional as it could be, I'm under the impression it's big focus is saveless blaster damage, with only the occasional Infusion needing a save. That doesn't strike me as a particularly relevant class to compare to.)

I don't mean to speak for Tek but I believe he is referring to Kineticist (the specialist Psion) as opposed to Kineticist (the failed Warlock reboot).

[Captain Morgan]

I don't mean to speak for Tek but I believe he is referring to Kineticist (the specialist Psion) as opposed to Kineticist (the failed Warlock reboot).

Ah, that would make more sense. I have no real input on psionics, but I assume most of the same arguments I made for casters still apply. Don't need attack rolls in addition to saves, greater utility and range of options, and not forced to leap into the meat grinder.

[tekevil]

I don't mean to speak for Tek but I believe he is referring to Kineticist (the specialist Psion) as opposed to Kineticist (the failed Warlock reboot).

The Kineticist and Warlock actually have very little in common. Mark Seifter used to be a third party dev like yourself, so I think it would be nice if you gave his work a shot instead of condemning him. He managed to sneak a lot of very cool stuff into the class under Jason's nose and that's very impressive. He's one of the two truly talented people on Paizo payroll, the other being Owen KC Stephen who has hijacked a lot of the Player Companion line and brought us a series of strong feats and archetypes in the last few releases.

It's no coincidence that the two best people in Paizo's staff were from the 3PP community.

[MilleniaAntares]

Given that the Knight Chandler is due for improvement (according to a /tg/ thread), how about having an animus augmentation that applies healing to an ally within 15 ft of the Soul Candle (perhaps on a successful strike only)? Something like 1 animus for 1d6 (d8?) healing, up to X animus.

Might be weaker at higher levels, so some autoscaling could apply. So it could improve to 2d6 healing per animus spent at level X, and an extra dice every Y levels thereafter, as appropriate.

Edit: On another topic, wouldn't it be cool if the God of the Hourglass Stance let you use Time Stop or a similar effect? Then again, it could introduce quite a bit of complications with two people acting in frozen time...

[amberlink]

So..if I took levels in something without access to Veiled Moon, and later took levels in Mage Hunter, would I be able to advanced study anything from Veiled moon ever?

[Captain Morgan]

Oh, and since I forgot to mention this, the PoW:E version of the Harbinger gets Scarlet Throne over Primal Fury.

Are there going to be any changes to make the Dark Focus DC boost stack with using a Discipline Weapon? And will the Harbinger get any tweaks to work a little better with reach weapons? Changing the wording on massacre, adding a reach option for Discipline Weapons on Shattered Mirror, etc.

[tekevil]

One of the nice things about the Dark Focus increase not stacking with the Discipline weapon increase is that it allows non-discipline weapons to be only 1 DC behind a discipline weapon. Makes you feel a little less incentivized to stick purely to discipline weapons and pick up a Hooked Lance or Long Spear.

Massacre does need to work on reach weapons though.

Tenebrous Reach would be cool if it allowed you to instead ignore AoOs from a Claimed target, that way the ability still fit in with the theme of a skirmisher.

[Jigawatts]

I don't mean to speak for Tek but I believe he is referring to Kineticist (the specialist Psion) as opposed to Kineticist (the failed Warlock reboot).

Lord Gareth, your disparaging of Paizo is by far my least favorite thing about DSP. It's rather offputting. I don't know why you feel the need to take these passive-aggressive potshots at them, but I've seen you do it not-uncommonly on both forums, and it would probably be ok if you were Random Forum Poster C, but you are an employee of a third party publisher for the very company and game you belittle, a higher standard needs to be adhered to. There is such a thing as tact and professional etiquette, look to Ssalarn as an example, he's excellent at it.

(And this specific example I quoted isn't even an overly egregious offender, but I noticed it and felt it was something that needed to be addressed as it fits the overall recurring trend, straw that broke the camels back and whatnot).

[MilleniaAntares]

So..if I took levels in something without access to Veiled Moon, and later took levels in Mage Hunter, would I be able to advanced study anything from Veiled moon ever?
From the moment you take Mage Hunter, you can take Advanced Study for Veiled Moon maneuvers as a discipline you have access to; so you can choose between 2 maneuvers or 1 stance, rather than a mere 1 maneuver.

Keep in mind the minimum maneuvers known limit, however.

[Lord_Gareth]

Lord Gareth, your disparaging of Paizo is by far my least favorite thing about DSP. It's rather offputting. I don't know why you feel the need to take these passive-aggressive potshots at them, but I've seen you do it not-uncommonly on both forums, and it would probably be ok if you were Random Forum Poster C, but you are an employee of a third party publisher for the very company and game you belittle, a higher standard needs to be adhered to. There is such a thing as tact and professional etiquette, look to Ssalarn as an example, he's excellent at it.

(And this specific example I quoted isn't even an overly egregious offender, but I noticed it and felt it was something that needed to be addressed as it fits the overall recurring trend, straw that broke the camels back and whatnot).

Welp, this is the discussion I needed to wake up to with a hangover.

What, precisely, are we talking here? The statements about the design failures of Fighter & other "traditional" martials? My general record re: statements about Paizo? From what point forward?

Though I've generally calmed down about things, my opinions on Paizo's work have not particularly changed. I'm not going to pretend like they have. Here, now, in this thread, I express them when they're likely to relate to my own work. There is a point at which the honest expression of a negative opinion becomes impeded by attempting not to hurt anyone's feelings. When forced to choose between honesty and tact, I'm going to be honest - every time.

And the thing is, that is what I hope for from others. My playtesters certainly haven't been shy; I don't expect anyone else to be either. My issue with critique phrased as an attack begins and ends at "it can obscure your point unhelpfully". Beyond that I have no expectation that anyone is going to tiptoe around my feelings or give me anything less than their complete and sincere opinions & data, and I don't particularly want anyone to. Sometimes I need a good slapping to pay attention.

I often have to engage with my readership on design principles and explain what has, and hasn't, succeeded in the context of the game or what I feel is good design. The comparisons are going to be inevitable, and honestly I feel like it'd be more disrespectful to sugarcoat or lie than it would be to hold to the stance I had well before I got hired. If Paizo feels otherwise, they've got avenues to contact me.

Also, and I do not mean this in any way negatively, Ssalarn & I often have disagreements - sometimes strident disagreements - over the state of chunks of the design. What you see as tact may instead be agreement.

[Lord_Gareth]

Just wondering, have you ever actually opened the Occult Adventures release or are you just relying on the first impressions made by an angry 4channer who compared an unoptimized Kineticist to an expert archer?

You wound me. I always check my data, usually through multiple channels. In this particular case, the esteemed Psybomb was kind enough to share his numbers with me, and I've had to observe tinkering with the class as part of Psionics Augmented: Occult. My issues with it also go beyond the performance you can wring from it; in fact, they tend to start at having to wring the performance. I don't like minimum-optimization buy-ins.

[tekevil]

Just wondering, have you ever actually opened the Occult Adventures release or are you just relying on the first impressions made by an angry 4channer who compared an unoptimized Kineticist to an expert archer?

If the criticisms come from, at the very least, informed theorycrafting I could understand. But if you've never even cracked open the cover then it really is just uninformed and unproffessional to say things like that.

Not only that, but the us vs them mentality you have shows that if a 3pp makes it big and gets hired by Paizo that they will get nothing but scorn from you. Kind of sad to turn on your brother's in arms like that.

Edit:Guess you read it since the last time we talked then. Also curious about Psybombs numbers since I found the Kineticist to have the same DPR as my fully buffed Bard archer.

[Lord_Gareth]

Not only that, but the us vs them mentality you have shows that if a 3pp makes it big and gets hired by Paizo that they will get nothing from scorn from you. Kind of sad to turn on your brother's in arms like that.

I judge stuff as it comes to me. I don't dislike work because of who makes it; I dislike it because of things about the work itself.


Edit:Guess you read it since the last time we talked then. Also curious about Psybombs numbers since I found the Kineticist to have the same DPR as my fully buffed Bard archer.

Poke 'im, dude's PM box ought to be open.

[Elricaltovilla]

Remember, Gareth, ErrantX, the rest of the DSP staff and I are not just 3pp writers, we're also fans of the Pathfinder (and more largely 3.5) system. While we try to keep our opinions as fans separate from our publishing, it would be wrong to deny that these opinions as fans don't inform our designs. A major part of the reason PoW and PoW:E exist is a dissatisfaction (as fans) with the way that martial characters are presented mechanically in 1st party material.

We're not in the business of making uninformed decisions, the occasional kneejerk reaction aside (we are human after all). I have not personally built a kineticist yet, but I have seen kineticist builds, as well as comparison numbers from others that I trust (Psybomb, for example). It's easy to draw conceptual and mechanical comparisons between the Kineticist and the Warlock, and those comparisons don't really end in favor of the kineticist. Denying that isn't going to help anyone, and would be detrimental to our publishing work if we ignored it.

I'm just as guilty as Gareth of having a rather acerbic tone, and sometimes it can be bad if I don't catch it. We do our best to be tactful, but it doesn't always work. But there is no benefit to be gained from hiding the flaws of someone's writing, especially not when we're expected to then put our own spin on that writing.

[Ssalarn]

Also, and I do not mean this in any way negatively, Ssalarn & I often have disagreements - sometimes strident disagreements - over the state of chunks of the design. What you see as tact may instead be agreement.

To be fair, it's not too hard to find posts where I've openly disagreed about lots of Paizo design decisions, including-

Firearm mechanics in general.

The majority of their recent mounted combat rulings.

The over-valuation of feats, particularly in design chassis' like the Fighter's.

The entire concept of "hybrid classes" (even if I do still like the Hunter).

The weird idea of "extraordinary = mundane" and strange adherence to the guy at the gym fallacy for a lot of design in non-magical classes.

The idea and design principles of "all day" vs. limited resource classes.

And lots of other things on a case by case basis, including Unchained Rogue and Barbarian design decisions, what I see as a really bad habit of the design team to always go with exclusive instead of inclusive rulings in their FAQs and errata, etc. Heck, I open up my Vizier release talking about how I dislike Vancian casting models, which is something Paizo has chosen to make a core part of their design identity.

That being said, I also understand a lot of what goes into their design decisions, I personally think they do a great job of encouraging people to support the 3pps who design for their game when someone is looking for something they aren't going to touch on (over the last few years I've heard many people on the Paizo staff, including Erik Mona, Mark Seifter, and even Jason Buhlman publicly endorse Dreamscarred's Ultimate Psionics, and even published an interview on my blog where Erik mentions how great he thinks it is that DSP decided to do Path of War for the people who wanted Tome of Battle style options), and I think that more often than not they do a pretty decent job given the constraints they have on their publishing windows (even if now and then a real stinker like the first print Advanced Class Guide comes out).
Their track record also shows that they do try to listen to their community, even if they can be a little slow in righting the course, or decide that some things aren't at the same priority level for them as others. They put Owen KC Stephens, a designer for whom some of his most popular releases are fixes to classes like the Fighter and Monk, in charge of their Player Companion line, and since then they've released feats and options like Dirty Fighting which addresses the common complaint about the Combat Expertise tax, and they brought Mark Seifter onto the design team, a guy who was a long standing member of the community with 3pp design experience that took some big steps away from their standard conventions.

Anyways, I'm not a fanboy and anyone who knows anything about me knows I'm not afraid to call them out on things I view as bad design decisions or poor policy, but generally speaking I'm also going to listen to their side of things, and I try to always respect the people I'm disagreeing with, particularly when their work is what is helping pave the way for and support my own.

Personal thoughts on the OA Kineticist- The Warlock was actually a pretty "meh" class, and I don't find the Kineticist to be particularly better or worse. Last I checked, the Kineticist actually had better comparative damage numbers within his system than the Warlock did within his (possibly with the exception of the Hellfire Warlock prestige class), probably because Mark Seifter religiously balanced directly against the Bestiary CR design standards. I think the floor is notably higher than most CRB classes, though the ceiling is also lower by a roughly equivalent amount. It's not something I personally am too likely to play (especially given that I've written a bunch of versatile "casters" with recharging and/or non-expendable resources that I think do a lot of the stuff the Kineticist does better), but I think it gets less credit than it deserves.

Random anecdote on the OA Kineticist- I was at PAX earlier this year and was shocked to discover that almost every PFS GM there (and a lot of the players), volunteers from all over the country with no direct affiliations with Paizo to speak of (in fact, most of them didn't realize the guy I was chatting with was Erik Mona until I had him sign my copy of OA, something of a PAX tradition since he's signed a book for me every PAX since I started attending), thought the Kineticist was overpowered. Like, the whole freaking room, with people who had never met before and who represented gaming communities from all over the country, thought the Kineticist was OP. It was just kind of a startling reminder for me of how big the gaps between the floor and ceiling of the game are, and how many people actually play closer to the bottom of the curve than the top, to the point that something that exists pretty solidly in the middle with relatively limited upward mobility actually seemed so strong to them.

[tekevil]

For reference I find that classes that exist "Solidly in the middle" are the ideal balance point for the game. I'm not talking about tier system either.

[Captain Morgan]

To tie Ssalarn's point about relative game balance with the argument tekevil and I had earlier, I came across this thread on the DSP boards.

http://dreamscarred.com/topic/path-of-war-dc-of-mad-characters/

This particular player found the DCs of the Initiator classes unacceptably low. Now, he was basically trying to play a Warder like a Harbinger and dumped INT and what not, but it still shows that achieving balance that pleases everyone is really freaking hard.

[Elricaltovilla]

To tie Ssalarn's point about relative game balance with the argument tekevil and I had earlier, I came across this thread on the DSP boards.

http://dreamscarred.com/topic/path-of-war-dc-of-mad-characters/

This particular player found the DCs of the Initiator classes unacceptably low. Now, he was basically trying to play a Warder like a Harbinger and dumped INT and what not, but it still shows that achieving balance that pleases everyone is really freaking hard.

I realize what you're trying to say, but seeing those two clauses together like that made me laugh.

[Ssalarn]

I realize what you're trying to say, but seeing those two clauses together like that made me laugh.

I read it and was like "that's a really good point, so I'm not going to ask about the whole 'tried to play an Int focused class like an even more Int focused class and dumped Int' thing".

I think maybe the general idea is that, despite the Harbinger sitting on a heavy Int focused chassis, he actually has tons of native ways to have competitive or even flat-out superior save DCs that aren't directly reliant on INT boosting, while the Warder still needs to boost his DCs in the more standard and traditional ways, stat boosting and feats. The Warder is very much a martial character with DC based effects as a secondary component, where the Harbinger is more like a gish specialising in effects that offer saves and thus has the tools to make debuffing a primary tool instead of a secondary one. In other words, Warder is tank first, anything else second, and trying to build him as a primary debuffer probably isn't going to go as well for you unless you change the way you approach the class.

[Elricaltovilla]

I agree it's a good point, which is why I was going to let it stand. But I read it as "Play a Warder like a Harbinger (which should dump INT)" it was obviously not what was intended though, but that was the first way my brain parsed that information and it was amusing.

[tekevil]

Do people dump int on Warders? I've never ran lower than a 14 on mine.

[Elricaltovilla]

Do people dump int on Warders? I've never ran lower than a 14 on mine.

You definitely should not dump INT on a Warder. It's less of a priority on a Warder than it is on other Initiators, but even then I'd still recommend Attack Stat > CON = INT > Other Stats. Obviously not the case if you're an Ordained Defender Warder.

[Ssalarn]

Do people dump int on Warders? I've never ran lower than a 14 on mine.

I generally don't. On a 20 point buy, I'll usually do a 16 in Strength and a 16 in Intelligence before racial modifiers (unless one of the racial modifiers is a penalty to CON). I've even done a 14 STR, 14 DEX, 16 INT build very successfully; the benefits of full BAB + martial initiating are not to be underestimated, and I've never felt the need to shove a 20 into my attack stat the way I often do with Fighters or some other non-initiators, though after that I do prioritize boosting my physical stats over my Int (not neglecting Int, just things like buying a belt before I buy a headband).

[Elricaltovilla]

STR: 16
DEX: 10
CON: 12
INT: 14
WIS: 10
CHA: 8



STR: 16
DEX: 10
CON: 12
INT: 16
WIS: 10
CHA: 8

STR: 16
DEX: 10
CON: 14
INT: 14
WIS: 10
CHA: 10



STR: 16
DEX: 10
CON: 12
INT: 16
WIS: 12
CHA: 8



These are the spreads I usually use for most Warders.

[Kaidinah]

In general, for initiating classes I bring the initiation ability score up to 14 or 16. If its a Harbi, 18 is not out of the question.

There are a few archetypes I am undecided on when it comes to initiation ability score, since they retain their casting/manifesting. Nightmare most of all, since it actually uses that charisma for its power save DCs. I would have to use a 16 at minimum, but I don't know if the Nightmare would need higher. I might just have to roll one next time my group wants to run a one-shot and try that out.

[Captain Morgan]

For my Harbinger, I'm going:

STR 15
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 15 (17 post racial)
WIS 10
CHA 7

But I'm only getting away with that because he's starting at level 8, and I can use the +1 level adjustment to boost STR and INT up to 16 and 18, respectively. It's also a little harder to justify dumping DEX or CON on the Harbi, since it has a smaller hit dice and lighter armor.


I agree it's a good point, which is why I was going to let it stand. But I read it as "Play a Warder like a Harbinger (which should dump INT)" it was obviously not what was intended though, but that was the first way my brain parsed that information and it was amusing.

Yeah, I originally had another clause which probably would have clarified my sentence structure, but I removed it because it also really harped on how badly optimized the character from that thread was. Kinda felt like there had been plenty of that already from the thread in question.

[charcoalninja]

One of us is clearly stating that they believe you can't qualify for item creation feats without the mystic artifice class feature while the other quoted directly from the mystics doc showing how it gets a caster level from an entirely different class feature. How are we in agreement?

Nvm.....I already got my answer from an actual dev, just don't like people spreading miss information because it just makes my job as a DM that much more difficult.

Just wanted to pop in here again to apologize for my misreading. I had thought Mystic Artiface was the feature that gave Mystic their caster level and I was wrong. Sorry for the confusion spread!

[MilleniaAntares]

If Tenebrous Reach is due for a nerf, why not nerf it to only work against a particular claimed creature? Could still be useful, but not as useful as it is now.

Also, a harbinger dumping intelligence is rather hilarious, even if you do want to optimize damage while still having mediocre DCs.

[tekevil]

It's less that it needs a nerf and more that it is contrary to the previous 12 levels of Harbinger and completely transforms your tactics into that of a safe and stationary "archer."

For 12 levels you are a skirmisher, then suddenly at 13 you become a ranged combatant.

Edit: Due to how point buy works and that one Harbinger class feature dumping int will only lower your DPR if my math is right. At some point that half int mod to atk and full int to damage more than makes up for a few extra strength purchases. A Harby with 18 str and 14 Int is +5 to hit compared to a harby with 18 int and 14 str being +4 to hit. Small damage per hit trade off, but recovering 4 maneuvers whenever a claimed target dies is pretty sweet when you claim 3 dudes at once. I can't think of a reason to start a Harbinger with anything less than a 16 int, but always pushing for an 18.