"Die for your master!" (Or dealing with a very unconventional thrallherd tactic)

[Thealtruistorc]

All ye men and women of Ludus turn away now.

So a while back a friend of mine entered into my game with a thrallherd character (which I OK'ed because he lacks the system mastery to build a dangerously optimized character). Interestingly, he himself doesn't partake in fights at all, operating exclusively through those under his control (he commands a squad of 1st-level commoners, and the rest of the party has no idea that he as the central controlling body even exists). He gets into character very well, and brings a lot of detail to the subtle actions and speech patterns of the mob he commands (they all speak in unison and refer to the force controlling them as "their godless entity," and a point is made about how all the mind slaves stand at attention at all times). He's a great player to have around, adding an interesting level of atmosphere to the campaign.

What I need a little help dealing with, however, is his combat strategy.

The way he works is that he crafts explosive devices in his downtime (I forget which book he mentioned they are from, but know that the damage is 8d6 fire and 4d6 sonic with a Reflex 15 half and a 25% chance of not going off) and gives one to each level 1 commoner that is under his thrallherd control. Whenever an enemy shows up, he sends the commoners one by one into the fray and has them detonate the explosive in their hands, effectively using them as suicide bombers. When they die he simply brings in more from his horde, each with a bomb of their own to continue laying on the pressure. All the while the thrallherd remains out of sight and out of reach, feeding on the information that his unyieldingly loyal followers accrue. He's effectively invincible with unlimited resources.

I've sort of already established the sense that this campaign is kind of a Tippyverse adventure (basically kind of a Tippyverse Mad Max meets Maze Runner) and that pretty much any strategy (no matter how illogical or strange) is on the table. I'm curious as to how foes should deal with this unusual strategy, but don't want to completely ruin the fun of the character. The most obvious answer is using stinking cloud/cloudkill to just shut the mooks down, but I would like more creative solutions.

[Saintheart]

Can the explosives be said to be unstable in any way, i.e. would they go off if you hit the bearer with a [fire] trap or spell or something? If so, you could get a nasty chain of explosions going by flicking a burst of fire at a crowd at them.

If you just wanted to keep the commoners from ever getting into strike range rather than outright killing them, a permanent rune of Dimension Hop set to activate on any opponent entering within 30 feet of the caster and always pushing them back along their line of approach by twenty feet or so could be interesting.

[elonin]

How much does the explosive cost to create in terms of time and money?

[OldTrees1]

Have you ever played Minecraft? The foes would probably treat these 1st level followers like Creepers(walking bomb monsters). They would use Readied Actions and Attacks of Opportunity(for those with Reach) to use a mixture of slaying the minion, disarming the minion, backsteping away from the minion, or halting the minion.

Options available based on needed preparations:
1) Tank the damage
Prep, in battle knowledge
2) Readied Action to attack
3) Readied Action to move further away
4) Switch to ranged attack
Prep, foreknowledge
5) Buy a reach weapon, attack minion with AoO
6) Buy a reach weapon, disarm minion with AoO
7) Buy a reach weapon, trip minion with AoO
Prep, evasive reflexes
8) Buy a reach weapon, Step away with AoO
Prep, combat reflexes
9-10) See 5-8

[Psyren]

A 12d6 explosive sounds like it would be expensive; how is he able to make so many so quickly and cheaply, that he can afford to hand them out like candy?

It also sounds like third-party, which tends to have questionable balance; you should always reserve the right to tweak or ban something that is disrupting the game, especially from an unfamiliar source like that.

[unseenmage]

Is he using the Explosive Pack from Secrets of Sarlona?
If so it's just an alchemical item and cheap to make. The downside is it takes time to set up and is more effective vs constructions.


That said I would be rolling an increasing chance each encounter that the explosives cause a cave in beneath the battlefield and now everyone's in the underdark and more cave ins are likely.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's not explosive packs. They don't do fire or sonic damage and it's 100 gold per d6 of damage if you're making them instead of buying.

[Inevitability]

Flight would be a very cheap way of shutting this build down, and so would burrowing for that matter (unless you have the commoners chain-bomb a deep enough crater, but that's probably not practical).

A spell like Sleep would also be very effective against a small number of low-HD mooks.

[sovin_ndore]

I would probably not give him control of a large number of individuals in that fashion, but stat his commoners as a Mob. That makes them more effective in melee but also keeps them from effectively setting off AOEs without damaging the conglomerate.

I also would consider options like Magic Circle against XX, to provide AOE disruption of Thrallherd control. Even running Detect Thoughts or other opposed control effects (maybe Fiend of Posession) as a way to infiltrate his control network could reveal his presence and control mechanism. Once you have an enemy aware of his presence, that opens up a plethora of options for changing up the game.

[Segev]

He HAS a finite number of Believers. Kill them before they set off the bombs with ranged weapons, and make his "keep up the pressure" tactic work against him by running through commoners fast enough that he's in danger of running out. It takes 24 hours for replacements to show up, after all.

Also, where is he keeping them that they just keep showing up?

[Nibbens]

He HAS a finite number of Believers. Kill them before they set off the bombs with ranged weapons, and make his "keep up the pressure" tactic work against him by running through commoners fast enough that he's in danger of running out.

This.

Also, remember that your enemies are not unintelligent. See things from their pov:

Round 1 enemy turn: "I see a buff guy, a clericy type, a sneaky-looking-shadow dude. These are all things I've seen before... except the 6 weird looking guys in the back. I'll focus on the obvious threat for now and just keep my eye on the weird guys."

Round 1 PC turn: fighter does fighty thing, cleric does clericy thing, rogue does his sneaky thing... and one of the weird guys is a suicide bomber.

Round 2 enemy turn: "Holy carp! Well, I just figured out who the obvious threat is! Forget the fighter and the rogue - those weird guys are bad news! We need to take them out. They don't look so tough, so maybe we can clear them away kinda quickly - if not, we should run and recoup our losses. I don't want to die today if I can help it!"

[Flickerdart]

How resilient are the explosive devices? Your average IED will go up like a firework if it gets fireballed, which not only kills the commoner but also ticks off the party as well.

[Novawurmson]

Sounds like a job for entangle, to me.

Resistance/immunity to fire, resistance/immunity to sonic, creatures with decent Reflex saves and Evasion/Improved Evasion.

Level drain/reanimation could be nasty (i.e. fell drain+fell animate).

A single Binder binding Paimon could clear through his horde.

Edit: Also, how did we forget: Housecats! Level 1 commoners are basically their natural prey!

[StreamOfTheSky]

So a while back a friend of mine entered into my game with a thrallherd character (which I OK'ed because he lacks the system mastery to build a dangerously optimized character).

All players should be subject to the same rules and tolerances for material. It's not fair otherwise, and even if someone starts out a novice, s/he can quickly morph into one of those dirty little "optimizers." If you weren't comfortable with the Thrallherd, you should have banned it or limited its ability to endlessly draw in new minions and applied that to any PC that wanted to take levels in it, and of course also apply the changes to NPC Thrallherds.
If a player wants to make something woefully unoptimized, like a "1H-only" weapon fighting style character and you decide to buff it (new feats that make it much stronger, perhaps?) for his/her sake, that's fine....as long as anyone else going that route has those options, too.

Just be glad he hasn't realized by RAW he can acquire thralls, take their level-appropriate gear, have them killed, then call up a new one and rinse/repeat. (When I made a Thrallherd for a game I brought this up to the DM b/c it seemed like a cheap exploit and offered a simple resolution that it costs the thralls' wealth in gp to cover up my Thrallherd's involvement in their deaths -- the more powerful the thrall, the more notoriety s/he had and the more it'll cost to cover up -- so there was no mechanical incentive to milk them for loot. I had no intention of doing so anyway, but it seemed like an issue that should be addressed)