Do multiple Dashes stack? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Malifice

2015-09-23, 09:08 PM

So say you have a Rogue 2 / Fighter 2. They need to move, fast. So they main action dash, bonus action dash, then action surge dash and move. Do they move 60ft, or 120ft?

120'

30' for the move, and an extra 30' for each dash action they take.

The dash action is just 'move your speed again'

Boci

2015-09-23, 09:12 PM

120'

30' for the move, and an extra 30' for each dash action they take.

The dash action is just 'move your speed again'

The actual wording, which you were so keen on me reading yet are misquoting here, is "When you dash, you gain extra movement for this turn". Not "move your speed again", but extra movement. Furthermore, the language is singular, "If you dash, you can move up to 30ft" (assuming a 15ft speed), so I don't think its as clear cut as you are making it out to be.

Malifice

2015-09-23, 09:17 PM

The actual wording, which you were so keen on me reading yet are misquoting here, is "When you dash, you gain extra movement for this turn". Not "move your speed again", but extra movement. Furthermore, the language is singular, "If you dash, you can move up to 30ft" (assuming a 15ft speed), so I don't think its as clear cut as you are making it out to be.

You could be right.

Ive always interpreted Dash as = 'Move again'

Yuki Akuma

2015-09-23, 09:25 PM

Boci

2015-09-23, 09:29 PM

When you take the Dash action, you gain extra movement on this turn.

If you take the Dash action twice, you gain extra movement on this turn... twice.

There is no reason to believe that Dashing multiple times wouldn't let you move extra fast. Do you think taking the Attack action twice means you can't attack more than taking it once, too?

There's actually a difference in language between those two. The language of attack is "With this action, you make one attack". The stacking is clear.

By contrast, Dash uses such language as "you can move up to 60ft on your turn if you dash". Implying at the very least the possibility for a more binary yes/no scenario without any stacking.

Now alternatively of course, it could just simply be slopping wording and writers forgetting that you could dash twice or more, but unless I'm missing something it doesn't seem clear cut either way.

Ruslan

2015-09-23, 09:31 PM

Seems the confusion stems from conflating "your speed" and "your movement". "Your speed" is, for a typical character, 30'. Normally, this is the distance you can move in a turn. So, usually "your speed" = "your movement".

If you take the Dash action, "you gain extra movement for the current turn. The increase equals your speed, after applying any modifiers."

So you have a total of 30' + 30' movement, for a total of 60'. Therefore, "your movement" = 60', but "your speed" is still 30'. Nothing in the wording of Dash implies it can change your speed. Just your movement.

If you take the Dash action a second time with Cunning Action, for example, "your movement" is 60+30' = 90', and "your speed" remains at 30'. Dash a third time with Action Surge? Your movement is now 120'.

Yuki Akuma

2015-09-23, 09:31 PM

Boci

2015-09-23, 09:33 PM

Also, seriously, the designer has answered this already. (http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1900-D-D-5th-Edition-Sage-Advice-from-Designers-Mearls-Crawford#.VgNf9_lViko) (The original tweet he answered has been deleted, but here's Mearls' tweet anyway (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/490632985566146560).)

"believe that's correct. -M" isn't quite what I would call "answered", but sure, we can take that as designer intent and allow multiple dashes.

Seems the confusion stems from conflating "your speed" and "your movement". "Your speed" is, for a typical character, 30'. Normally, this is the distance you can move in a turn. So, usually "your speed" = "your movement".

If you take the Dash action, "you gain extra movement for the current turn. The increase equals your speed, after applying any modifiers."

So you have a total of 30' + 30' movement, for a total of 60'. Therefore, "your movement" = 60', but "your speed" is still 30'. Nothing in the wording of Dash implies it can change your speed. Just your movement.

If you take the Dash action a second time with Cunning Action, for example, "your movement" is 60+30' = 90', and "your speed" remains at 30'. Dash a third time with Action Surge? Your movement is now 120'.

Fair enough. Now technically you are still limited by the clause "you can move up to 60ft" in the dash action, but that's getting really RAW strict.

Cybren

2015-09-23, 09:55 PM

"believe that's correct. -M" isn't quite what I would call "answered", but sure, we can take that as designer intent and allow multiple dashes.

Fair enough. Now technically you are still limited by the clause "you can move up to 60ft" in the dash action, but that's getting really RAW strict.

there's no requirement that you have to use all your movement in one go. you can break it up between attacks, it would therefore follow that if you used all your movement, then gained more, you would be able to continue moving.

Boci

2015-09-23, 09:59 PM

there's no requirement that you have to use all your movement in one go. you can break it up between attacks, it would therefore follow that if you used all your movement, then gained more, you would be able to continue moving.

This is rather pointless, but from a strictly RAW perspective, it doesn't say "you get 60ft of movement", it says "you can move up to 60ft". There's no reason to assume additional movement would allow you to break that cap.

bid

2015-09-23, 10:32 PM

This is rather pointless, but from a strictly RAW perspective, it doesn't say "you get 60ft of movement", it says "you can move up to 60ft". There's no reason to assume additional movement would allow you to break that cap.
It says "for example" too. As a DM, there's nothing that stops you from picking the interpretation you prefer, though.

rollingForInit

2015-09-24, 01:52 AM

Since no part of the wording actually says you are limited to 1 dash, I don't see why there should be a limit. The example that's listed is just an example, and most characters will only ever be able to dash once.

Characters that can dash with other types of actions or that can get multiple Actions would be exception. And specifics beat general rules anyway.

CNagy

2015-09-24, 06:17 AM

This is rather pointless, but from a strictly RAW perspective, it doesn't say "you get 60ft of movement", it says "you can move up to 60ft". There's no reason to assume additional movement would allow you to break that cap.
Except for the very next few lines, which says that an increase or decrease in speed is reflected in the dash as well. If 60 feet were the cap, an increase would not be reflected in the dash. But more importantly than that: examples are not where you give out new rules. Examples show how mechanics work, they do not introduce new mechanics. A movement cap, mentioned nowhere else in the book, would be a new mechanic.

Boci

2015-09-24, 08:03 AM

But more importantly than that: examples are not where you give out new rules.

Sounds reasonable, but ultimately just your opinion, unless you can quote a design philosophy to that effect. (You'll note I've already acknowledged multiple dashing should work 5 posts ago).

CNagy

2015-09-24, 08:12 AM

Sounds reasonable, but ultimately just your opinion, unless you can quote a design philosophy to that effect. (You'll note I've already acknowledged multiple dashing should work 5 posts ago).

Actually, it's less opinion than it is the literal purpose of an example; an illustrative model of a rule or concept. An example by definition is referential to something mentioned previous, so the only way that you introduce brand new content in an example is if you don't know how to use examples.

Boci

2015-09-24, 08:18 AM

Actually, it's less opinion than it is the literal purpose of an example; an illustrative model of a rule or concept. An example by definition is referential to something mentioned previous, so the only way that you introduce brand new content in an example is if you don't know how to use examples.

So your argument is that the writers of D&D couldn't possibly have up and accidentally introduced a new information in the example, because as we all know messing up just isn't something they do.

Fighting_Ferret

2015-09-24, 09:06 AM

Dash is merely giving up your action to move farther in the same amount of time(speed). I understand that the wording may be vague, but basically speed is referencing how far you can move and still do something (your action) in 6 second window. Using the Dash action means that your are going to accelerate your speed for that round and therefore move 2x as far in the same 6 second window(you are hustling). Using your Bonus action to Dash as well mean that you are moving 3x as fast, thus your 'speed' is taking you further in the 6 seconds(you are running here). You don't get a movement action, but you do get to move your speed, so using an action to dash would let you move 60 feet(double speed), the bonus action to dash would mean that you can move 90 feet(3x speed) and action surge comes in at 120 feet (4x speed, which would be a flat out sprint).

The way you are arguing it makes no sense, I use my action to increase my movement range, but do nothing to use that movement. Speed increases for the fixed window of time, which increases distance travelled in that same fixed window of time.

PoeticDwarf

2015-09-24, 09:29 AM

120'

30' for the move, and an extra 30' for each dash action they take.

The dash action is just 'move your speed again'

Isn't the das action, double your speed. I rule btw you can just take one dash action. By raw a rogue 2 can take two dash actions and goes for 90 (30+30+30) or 120ft (30 + 30 = 60 + 60 = 120) and that a monk without ki points just has 80ft logical.

Boci

2015-09-24, 09:31 AM

Isn't the das action, double your speed. I rule btw you can just take one dash action. By raw a rogue 2 can take two dash actions and goes for 90 (30+30+30) or 120ft (30 + 30 = 60 + 60 = 120) and that a monk without ki points just has 80ft logical.

No, because Dash action gives you an increase in movement equal to your speed. When you dash a second time, your speed is still 30.

jkat718

2015-09-24, 02:02 PM

I believe the following rule is quite relevant:

Any increase or decrease to your speed changes this additional movement by the same amount. If your speed of 30 feet is reduced to 15 feet, for instance, you can move up to 30 feet this turn if you dash.

Basically, Dash does increase your movement, and then another Dash would increase the new movement. Not saying it's RAI, but I'd definitely say it's RAW.

Theodoxus

2015-09-24, 02:14 PM

Fair enough. Now technically you are still limited by the clause "you can move up to 60ft" in the dash action, but that's getting really RAW strict.

So, Wood Elves are screwed out of 5' of movement? 5th+ Barbarians out of 10'? Monks of various levels out of more? That makes no sense. I wish the example had been for an outlier case, rather than the typical 30' move.

One could even argue that small folk and dwarves get an extra 10' out of it - move 25, but dash up to 60!

Yeah, that interpretation makes zero sense.

Boci

2015-09-24, 02:20 PM

So, Wood Elves are screwed out of 5' of movement? 5th+ Barbarians out of 10'? Monks of various levels out of more? .

No, no one has argued that. The above would be exempt from the clause because they no longer have a speed of 30ft. In any case, I already acknowledged that stacking Dashes did appear to be RAI and possibly RAW, I was simply pointed out that such wording implied the possibility of a binary interpretation.

CNagy

2015-09-24, 02:25 PM

So your argument is that the writers of D&D couldn't possibly have up and accidentally introduced a new information in the example, because as we all know messing up just isn't something they do.

Well, the options are:

A) The writers know how to use examples and thus the 60 feet mention is the example turn movement for when you have a default 30 feet speed and you take the Dash action.
or
B) We assume the writers don't know what they are doing, introduced an extremely important rule inside of an example, and proceeded to never reference the rule again. A rule which, by the way, is as far as I know (didn't play 4e) a complete departure from how speed has been treated in every edition until now, a rule which would probably deserves it's own heading considering a high level monk has a +30 speed increase, an increase that puts wood elves (who start with 35 ft speed) over the proposed cap. Then there is the fact that such a cap would make Dash actually--literally--useless for that same monk at high levels.

TopCheese

2015-09-24, 02:32 PM

Well, the options are:

A) The writers know how to use examples and thus the 60 feet mention is the example turn movement for when you have a default 30 feet speed and you take the Dash action.
or
B) We assume the writers don't know what they are doing, introduced an extremely important rule inside of an example, and proceeded to never reference the rule again. A rule which, by the way, is as far as I know (didn't play 4e) a complete departure from how speed has been treated in every edition until now, a rule which would probably deserves it's own heading considering a high level monk has a +30 speed increase, an increase that puts wood elves (who start with 35 ft speed) over the proposed cap. Then there is the fact that such a cap would make Dash actually--literally--useless for that same monk at high levels.

In 4e you could just trade your standard action for a move action and then move or use a feature that takes a move action.

I'm pretty sure Dash is just a different way of saying "take a move action" except there is no move action anymore... You just can move.

So think of it like from 4e, you can take a move at your current speed.

35 base speed
+ 35 dash
+35 dash
Total = 105'

Vogonjeltz

2015-09-24, 04:19 PM

So say you have a Rogue 2 / Fighter 2. They need to move, fast. So they main action dash, bonus action dash, then action surge dash and move. Do they move 60ft, or 120ft?

If their speed is 30 feet:
Main action dash: +30 feet (their speed) to movement
bonus action dash: +30 more feet (their speed) to movement
action surge dash: +30 more feet (their speed) to movement

They can now move 120 feet (speed (30) + dash (+30) + dash(+30) + dash (+30 movement).

Fair enough. Now technically you are still limited by the clause "you can move up to 60ft" in the dash action, but that's getting really RAW strict.

No, no it's not a limitation. The entire example sentence is: "With a speed of 30 feet, for example, you can move up to 60 feet on your turn if you dash."
It's to illustrate how the rule (the preceding sentence) works.

JackPhoenix

2015-09-25, 08:45 AM

In 4e you could just trade your standard action for a move action and then move or use a feature that takes a move action.

I'm pretty sure Dash is just a different way of saying "take a move action" except there is no move action anymore... You just can move.

So think of it like from 4e, you can take a move at your current speed.

3.5e (and PF) had the same thing, you could exchange your Standard action for another Move action. You could even run as a Full-round action for 4x (or 3x in heavy armor, or 5x with Run feat) your base speed, but you had to move in a straight line.