How do you found a religion?

[Brendanicus]

So, I wanted to make yet another interesting quest for my players, but there are a lot of ways for this one to play out, and any suggestions would be great.

The premise is that an Efreet has blackmailed the players into helping him. This Efreet has a long-standing rivalry with a Marid, and needs the party to strike a blow to the Marid's ego. The particular Marid in question has a hobby of founding cults to her on the Material Plane. She doesn't check up on these cults after she founds them; she loves fooling humanoids rather than subjugating them.

There is one such cult nearby; a city of devout Kuo-Toa. The Kuo-Toa are not hostile to outsiders, just anti-social and weird. The Efreet wants the players to go underwater (he can't because he's a fire genie) and found a new religion to replace the Marid Cult. Again, the Efreet doesn't want the Kuo-Toa dead, he just wants them to reject the Marid. To aid the players in this quest, the genie turns all the players into Kuo-Toa.

So, the real meat of the problem: How would players found a new religion? Solutions I have thusfar:

Slay an evil monster/rival tribe in the name of the new god.
Sabotage temples to the Marid/Assassinate the cult leaders.
Stage some divine punishments from the Marid to make followers turn away.
Stage miracles from the new god to win followers.
Preach on street corners.
Charm influential figures.
Set up priests to preach the new faith, and allow those priests to gain prestige.
Feel free to give me any suggestions you have. I would love to hear suggestions for more specific tasks for players to complete.

[JenBurdoo]

Ever since reading a KODT series where one of the characters founds a new faith, I've been wondering and thinking about how such a process would work. The catch in this specific case being, it's hard to change the faith of someone devout. It's a lot easier to convert people who have recently had a crisis in their life. Seems to me they'd have to effectively destroy the kuo-toa faith rather than draw them away from it. They could somehow convince the kuo-toa of the truth -- that their goddess doesn't really care for them. Not sure how, unless characters have something like true seeing.

[erradin]

Actually I think an interesting idea might be to stage a visit from the new god. I'm betting the Marid in question has not been visiting much or doling out spells or anything. (Unless I'm wrong?). If the PCs have a new, more fearsome god 'visit', and 'work miracles'(strategically cast spells?), or defend them from a staged danger, they may be willing to abandon their old god- who has clearly abandoned them- in favor of the new one, or at least adopt him/her a an additional god.

The players may need to visit every so often to sow miraculous occurrences in order for the plan to stick. Or else, leave behind magical relics with important trigger phrases, like "In Olaf's name, I heal thee!" If they wanted to be inventive, could they convince the Kua-toa to worship an already existing god who WOULD grant spells?

[Sigreid]

Really it would be preaching a message that gives some kind of hope to the hopeless, strong performance and persuasion skills, and performing deeds that appear to selflessly assist others. Bonus points for getting a couple of bards etc. to tell stories of your wonders. Or, alternately you could preach a message that gives hope to the sadistic and cruel and promises to give them power over the weak and celebrate their depravity. Other than that it's the same deal.

The religions that actually have a chance to grow will promise peace, health, brotherhood etc. but appealing to people's baser selves tends to be faster.

[Regitnui]

If they wanted to be inventive, could they convince the Kua-toa to worship an already existing god who WOULD grant spells?

Now that sounds plausible. Don't destroy or break the religion, just convince them that they have the name of their goddess wrong. You might want to convince a few of their priests first, or you're in for an uphill battle against the entrenched power structure. The priests are, of course, the ones with the most to lose when a new god makes the rounds. By letting them keep their place, the new god might win enthusiastic converts.

Though, these are kuo-toa, right? The insane frog-people who can actually bring their imagined gods into reality? The marid might not be glad that the PCs are taking some actual power from her/him/it, and you might be looking at an eventual 'battle of the gods', with the confused and frightened kuo-toa quailing underfoot and worshipping the new victor all the more.

[Falcon X]

Here is what happened in my game:

Long story short: We declared a guy's portfolio, then continually showed it off in a big way while preaching that he was a god. It helped that he was a "god" of justice, so he gave people hope when he did his thing.

Long Story:
1. We had a character who thought he was a god. He would go around and teach about himself and offer ceremonies. He was a god of justice. Nobody really listened to him though, except that he was good at bringing justice to things...

2. DM invented a prophesy about the great evil being defeated by a god king. Since the only known being to fit that bill was Iuz, the players decided to invent their own god king. So, they set about to give our aspiring god a kingdom.

3. They found a kingdom that was on it's last leg, overrun by organized crime and poverty (I roughly used the background of the Sword Coast's Loudwater). They talked to the steward of the city and he quickly submitted that if we could get the city under control, it was ours.

4. We brought it under control, over time. We didn't play through this entire process. The people looked to our god king as the avatar of justice who pulled them out of the wreckage of fate.
We also enhanced the city. We happened to have a city planner from another dimension on hand (I know, right) who made trade roads with permanent longstrider for all who walked on them (charged a toll for the road too), pulled homeless and destitute and created an army out of them, and made the god king into a symbol of hope.

5. Once we started telling people he was a god, a few listened, but most were skeptical. However, we kept on doing justice in the world, fulfilling prophesies, and performing magic (in the god kings name). Eventually, many came around to believing in him.

How he actually became a god:
From reading books from planescape, 2nd-5th edition, I've come to the conclusion of how someone becomes a true god:
- It isn't the man who becomes the god, it's his LEGEND. The god is what people believed about the person. That is why stories of gods often include how they were as a mortal, but don't explain what happened to them to make them a god.
That is why a person's stat might get into the 40 range. They may have actually had a STR of 18 in life, but the people viewed him as having the STR of 40.
- People tend to become a god either when an established god wills it and sponsors him, or when he is such a legend in the world that the faith of the people shove him into godhood. This is not unlike how a Kua-Toa make their gods.
- Our godking eventually became so widely believed, that he became a true god when he died.

[napoleon_in_rag]

The particular Marid in question has a hobby of founding cults to her on the Material Planes.

Is this Marid's name L. Ron Hubbard?

[Regitnui]

Is this Marid's name L. Ron Hubbard?

Yellow marids? You get a cookie.

[djreynolds]

It is very common for soldiers of different faiths to be in a unit. So perhaps the rogue convinced the fighter, or paladin convinced the wizard to adopt his ways. Why did you're rogue multiclass into ranger, because he wanted the hunter package, or hanging out with the druid changed his views. Make it organic, the change and subtle. If your out defending a caravan of refugees and your being paid as a hired hand, perhaps in time you no longer care for the money and Ilmater calls to you or Tyr.

[Malifice]

http://www.scientology-belleair.org/images/dianetics/DMSMH-soft%20copy.jpg

[TopCheese]

http://www.scientology-belleair.org/images/dianetics/DMSMH-soft%20copy.jpg

http://www.globalfailure.com/images/southparkcloset.jpg

[Sigreid]

Run a orphanage and raise the little snot gobblers to believe.

[Joe the Rat]

Good advice in general, but I will point out that these are Kuo-Toa. Worshiping made-up stuff is what they do. Set up a statue of the Efreet next door and stick a sign on it that says "Look upon my perfectly formed buttocks, and despair. And worship me." and you'll have a following in about 3 days. To further the process, knock the Marid's idol-worship-thingie over.

Or do like Regitnui says, and just replace the Marid's name with something else, like "Throatwarbler-Mangrove" or "Jeff."

[TopCheese]

Good advice in general, but I will point out that these are Kuo-Toa. Worshiping made-up stuff is what they do. Set up a statue of the Efreet next door and stick a sign on it that says "Look upon my perfectly formed buttocks, and despair. And worship me." and you'll have a following in about 3 days. To further the process, knock the Marid's idol-worship-thingie over.

Or do like Regitnui says, and just replace the Marid's name with something else, like "Throatwarbler-Mangrove" or "Jeff."

Or Jen'fer?

[Temperjoke]

1. Create a natural disaster (real or fake) that you have complete control of and that the other priests can't interfere with

2. Stop the disaster in the name of your new god.

3. Build a new temple to your new god.

4. Tell the people that they are not worthy to worship the new god. (South Park "Cartmanland" reference)

5. Start having your team perform miracles around the town (healing, conjurings, etc.)

6. Try and convert one of the priests of the old church (not too high of rank, but known)

7. Start having "accidents" and "coincidence" kill off higher members of the old church

8. Start letting people into the rites and services in the temple for your god, slowly trickling them in

9. Predict a final act of doom against the old church and anyone who still worships there

10. Destroy the old church and everyone inside in a grand dramatic act.

11. Let your picked priest take over control of worship and leave, ostensibly to spread the word of the god.

[TopCheese]

1. Create a natural disaster (real or fake) that you have complete control of and that the other priests can't interfere with

2. Stop the disaster in the name of your new god.

3. Build a new temple to your new god.

4. Tell the people that they are not worthy to worship the new god. (South Park "Cartmanland" reference)

5. Start having your team perform miracles around the town (healing, conjurings, etc.)

6. Try and convert one of the priests of the old church (not too high of rank, but known)

7. Start having "accidents" and "coincidence" kill off higher members of the old church

8. Start letting people into the rites and services in the temple for your god, slowly trickling them in

9. Predict a final act of doom against the old church and anyone who still worships there

10. Destroy the old church and everyone inside in a grand dramatic act.

11. Let your picked priest take over control of worship and leave, ostensibly to spread the word of the god.

Or... A lot of castings of Modify Memory.

But that could get noticed by a deity really really fast...

Actually I'm pretty sure most deities would have a group of avengers... Well paladins whose only goal is to snuff out new religions. Yeah all those good gods need to keep the status quo and are helped in the endeavor by the evil gods.

Hmmm...

Edit: I think I'll make a one shot with this as the plot... The PCs will be working as a group of religious warriors who snuff out new religions and report to the middle management angels of different gods (even oposing gods).

[Temperjoke]

Or... A lot of castings of Modify Memory.

But that could get noticed by a deity really really fast...

Actually I'm pretty sure most deities would have a group of avengers... Well paladins whose only goal is to snuff out new religions. Yeah all those good gods need to keep the status quo and are helped in the endeavor by the evil gods.

Hmmm...

Edit: I think I'll make a one shot with this as the plot... The PCs will be working as a group of religious warriors who snuff out new religions and report to the middle management angels of different gods (even oposing gods).

Well, it was mentioned that the particular god in the OP's game doesn't pay attention to the temples and worshippers, she/it just likes to go around making temples.

[TopCheese]

Well, it was mentioned that the particular god in the OP's game doesn't pay attention to the temples and worshippers, she/it just likes to go around making temples.

True.

Modify memory it is!

[rooster707]

Why not let the players come up with their own plan?

[Temperjoke]

True.

Modify memory it is!

:smallfrown: B-b-but I put a lot of work and thought into the plan! T^T

[TopCheese]

:smallfrown: B-b-but I put a lot of work and thought into the plan! T^T

Welcome to D&D where the most effective plans typically revolve around spamming magic.

This isnonenof the reasons I love 4e, most of the spammable doom magic doesn't exist in the same fashion. PC planning trumps having the correct spell.

[Brendanicus]

Why not let the players come up with their own plan?I fully intend for them to. I just want to have a few interesting plot threads lieing around in case they want to supplement their roleplay with some more action-y adventuring. Also, they are not experienced players with access to great things like advanced illusions, charms, etc. Furthermore, these ideas allow me to add more depth and flavor to the city by way of institutions and practices.

For example, here are some examples of plot threads this thread has given me:


The Kuo-Toa has mistaken travelers from a nomadic merfolk tribe as dangerous interlopers who seek to destroy the city from within. The harsh response of the Kuo-Toa is causing the Merfolk tribe to consider conducting raids. Boom. That's a self-manufactured crisis for the players to twist.
There are abandoned parts of the city that the Kuo-Toa dare not enter (the original Aboleth structures), for fear that The Dread Walker (Stone Golem) will kill them. Kill golem, take credit for new god.
There is a festival in the Marid's name coming up, where it is customary for priests to go around the city, extolling the miracles performed over the previous year. A perfect platform for the players to place a patsy priest.

[Steampunkette]

Well first you find an unclaimed sea.

Then you start handing out bishopries in different bodies of water nearby that sea.

Insist all of your bishops have the authority and power to convert other people to your religion, and give them access to their own bodies of water, or sections or subsections of their own body of water.

The actual tenets of your religion are kind of irrelevant at that point, since everyone will just be converting people for the chance to win fabulous prizes.

[Temperjoke]

Well first you find an unclaimed sea.

Then you start handing out bishopries in different bodies of water nearby that sea.

Insist all of your bishops have the authority and power to convert other people to your religion, and give them access to their own bodies of water, or sections or subsections of their own body of water.

The actual tenets of your religion are kind of irrelevant at that point, since everyone will just be converting people for the chance to win fabulous prizes.

That's not nearly complex enough with opportunities to have things go horribly wrong.

I like it.

[Kajorma]

Generally,
Cults get their members by looking toward the outcasts of society:
People who do not belong for some reason, or feel that they don't belong.

Take these people and tell them that they are special, tell them that the reason society rejects them is not because they are broken, but because society is broken. Once they are in the current cult members do anything and everything to make sure that this person feels like they belong.

Going from a culture that rejects you and into a sub-culture that accepts you is generally enough to hook people completely.

...Now...
That's the real world. In a world where magic is common, and the Gods are known to exist, getting followers would be a little different, even if the idea is still mostly the same.
You don't need to convince people that your God is real. That will probably be assumed. What you'd need to do is convince them that their BDF (Best Diety Forever) doesn't really care about them, but that this new one will love them completely. So, what do you do? You look for problems within their society and start solving them.
Are they poor and starving? Bringing in lots of food in the name of the new God would do wonders.
Is there a brutal police state? Eliminating them and propping up a representative government would work well.
Are they mostly content? If we follow Maslowe their next concern on the pyramid would be esteem/acceptance. (see above)

Notably, the solutions that the PCs bring don't have to be long term fixes. Think Evita. The point isn't really helping the poor and needy. The point is making them *think* you care.

[napoleon_in_rag]

Have the PCs go from door to door handing out pamphlets.

[Steampunkette]

That's not nearly complex enough with opportunities to have things go horribly wrong.

I like it.

It was a reference to an obscure british sketch comedy troupe.

You've probably never heard of them.

*sips PBR*

[Temperjoke]

It was a reference to an obscure british sketch comedy troupe.

You've probably never heard of them.

*sips PBR*

It's entirely possible. I've only dabbled a little in british sketch comedy troupes, not enough to recognize references.

*eyes the drink and shudders*