So, the incarnum feats....

[SangoProduction]

You know, the ones that only give +1 incarnum and have a mediocre effect that ties up incarnum once used? Yeah, those.
Here's my questions, and suggestions.

1) Are these really "bad"? Like, toughness-level bad (ok, the incarnum toughness feat definitely is, but aside from that)?

2) If they are bad, would removing the restriction to daily reallotments of the incarnum make them decent? (Basically giving a point of incarnum, and a minor soulmeld for a feat.)

3) If 2 is too strong, would it instead be decent to still have 1/day allotting to it, but allow those points to be reallocated (subsequently reducing the effect, until no more points are allocated to the feat)?

4) If 3 is too weak, how about (HD/3) per day allotting to it, which can then be reallocated?

[Kelb_Panthera]

They're moderately useful if you have an alternate source of essentia. With just the one point that comes with each one, though, they're not very good. Removing the lockdown on essentia invested in them wouldn't change this much if at all.

[SangoProduction]

They're moderately useful if you have an alternate source of essentia. With just the one point that comes with each one, though, they're not very good. Removing the lockdown on essentia invested in them wouldn't change this much if at all.

I'm not sure I get what you are saying. Can you elaborate? Why would they be useful [with extra essentia], when the fact that it isn't good is that it doesn't give enough essentia? (Thus the problem is exacerbated when you already have another source of essentia, because it's less of a bonus, relative to what you have.)

For me personally, I quite disliked the essentia tie up, which basically negated the essentia you got, unless you didn't use the second part. This really feels like losing out, regardless of what you use the feat for, just because it has that second part that taunts you, but you don't see the benefits of.

Note: I'm not trying to argue. I am merely trying to understand.

[DrMartin]

I think that midnight augmentation and midnight metamagic are solid, but they are a bit in "if I really have a feat to spare" territory

[Troacctid]

For me personally, I quite disliked the essentia tie up, which basically negated the essentia you got, unless you didn't use the second part. This really feels like losing out, regardless of what you use the feat for, just because it has that second part that taunts you, but you don't see the benefits of.

This is the crux of the problem with the feats, but it's not the only issue. The other issue is that the rate just isn't very good on most of them. So you'll never take them unless you already have essentia to burn. (Midnight Metamagic and Midnight Augmentation being the exceptions, of course, as they're quite strong.) But the problem with that is the only characters who would ever have essentia to burn are meldshapers, and they don't need more essentia receptacles, because they already have enough trouble fueling their soulmelds. End result, there's mostly just nobody who wants them.

That said, some feats benefit much more than others if you allow at-will reallocation. Azure Toughness lets you retain the temporary HP even if the essentia becomes uninvested, and refreshes the temporary HP if you reinvest in it. Sapphire Smite can give you an extra smite, and then you can shift the essentia elsewhere once you've used it up. The situational ones like Soultouched Spellcasting and Soulsight and Psycarnum Blade get better, because you can wait to invest essentia into them until they become relevant.

On the other hand, the ones like Cerulean Reflexes still suck pretty hard.

[Taveena]

The thing is that they're somewhat valuable just FOR that +1 Essentia. It's not hard for an Incarnate or Totemist to want to have more power in their combat melds (though not often worth it, just running the numbers).

Sapphire Smite is one of the few that's actually worth investing in - if you're a Soulborn, just because they have very few uses per day and that makes it slightly more sustainable. Mind, Soulborn also has Thunderstep Boots (2.5 times the damage situationally), Incarnate Avatar (twice the damage in all situations situations), and Necrocarnum Weapon (equal damage but also returns incarnum investment on a crit). If you CAN fill up those three slots then Sapphire Smite is basically the only damage-increasing option left for your essentia. It's tricky, though, what with 10 essentia base. Still, you can get to 16 fairly easily with 3 bonus Incarnum feats, Azurin, and Extra Essentia.

EDIT: ALSO YES GODDAMNIT Midnight Augmentation and Midnight Metamagic are terrifyingly powerful. You know what's fun? Incarnum Apotheosis. Now literally every possible iteration of Midnight Metamagic, EVERY SPELL YOU KNOW, is treated as though it had 5 essentia in it. 5 free metamagic levels on EVERYTHING.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm not sure I get what you are saying. Can you elaborate? Why would they be useful [with extra essentia], when the fact that it isn't good is that it doesn't give enough essentia? (Thus the problem is exacerbated when you already have another source of essentia, because it's less of a bonus, relative to what you have.)

Not the extra essentia feat, more like a few levels in incarnate or access to persistent soulboon or incarnum apotheosis. Even a one level dip into necrocarnate or a few levels in umbral disciple or totem rager can get the extra essentia you need to make the feats somewhat worthwhile, depending on exactly which one(s) you're looking at.


For me personally, I quite disliked the essentia tie up, which basically negated the essentia you got, unless you didn't use the second part. This really feels like losing out, regardless of what you use the feat for, just because it has that second part that taunts you, but you don't see the benefits of.

Obviously, the less essentia you have and/or the more incarnum feats you have, the less worthwhile each of the incarnum feats becomes.

Basically, if you're not going to invest any more incarnum into the character than the incarnum feat itself, don't bother.


Note: I'm not trying to argue. I am merely trying to understand.

On some level, that's why we're all here.

Of note for eberron players and/or players of custom settings that use eberron material, you can get persistent soulboon in a minor schema. That's a DC 32 UMD check or a DC 13 caster level check for 4 extra essentia for the day. 26,400gp is a little steep before mid-level but it's an option.

[JusticeZero]

As an aside, it starts looking like a bit of a game-changer in E6..

[Troacctid]

The thing is that they're somewhat valuable just FOR that +1 Essentia. It's not hard for an Incarnate or Totemist to want to have more power in their combat melds (though not often worth it, just running the numbers).

+1 essentia isn't worth a feat. It tends to equate to a +2 here or a +1 there, about on the level of Weapon Focus or Dodge. Those aren't really premium feats. And if you're taking a feat just for essentia, that's what Bonus Essentia is for.

[Taveena]

+1 essentia isn't worth a feat. It tends to equate to a +2 here or a +1 there, about on the level of Weapon Focus or Dodge. Those aren't really premium feats. And if you're taking a feat just for essentia, that's what Bonus Essentia is for.

This is mostly true. Soulborn gets bonus incarnum feats, and it actually appreciates them, even if just increasing the essentia pool by 1 at each of those levels would give an identical result.

I mean still not worth a feat but hey, it's there and you're not going to begrudge it for showing up.

EDIT: Azure Toughness and Midnight Dodge qualify as those feats for prerequisites, so if you REALLY want Troll-Blooded or Karmic Strike on an Incarnum using character, they're better than taking the normal feat! I FOUND A USE.

[Rubik]

You know what makes a lot of the incarnum feats worth it? Psycarnum Infusion.

Expend your focus, fill up the feat with temporary essentia, and (according to the text of the incarnum feats), those essentia stay invested for the rest of the day.