XP From Monsters.

[CommanderCronos]

Hey Playgrounders,

Quick question that I am unsure of. So say I have a party of 4 players and they are all LVL 3. I put them up against a Basilisk, or a Manticore (CR3 XP reward 700xp.)

does this xp get split between them so they all get 175xp? or do they all get 700xp? I am pretty sure it gets split up yeah? Just wanted to double check.

Also since we are on the subject is this the sort of encounter that would make sense. Should you take a creature with the same CR level as the characters and this would make a fun and challenging fight for them?

Any help and tips for building fun encounters would be appreciated.

[McNinja]

You're supposed to split the XP up among the party, unless you want your players to level up incredibly fast. Alternatively, you could have them fight whatever and just tell them to level up every 2 sessions (or about 8 hours of play time).

Also for encounters, the CR of a creature means 4 players of that level can handle it. So a CR 3 creature is a perfect challenge for 4 level 3 characters.

Unless you're me and accidentally gave one of your players a storm giant belt. Then it's almost too easy.

[Raphite1]

My group of four players is currently level 5, and they have been breezing through battles against creatures of the same CR as their level.

In a straight-up fight without situational advantages or disadvantages, you can probably err on the side of slightly higher CRs.

[Malifice]

Some common mistakes in this thread.

CR is just an approximation of the expected threat. Dont throw a monster at the party that has a CR more than a point or two higher than the party level.

Secondly, 1 x CR appropriate creature is never a challenge for a party of 5 x PC's whose level = that same CR.

5 X 5th level PC's have an XP budget of:

Easy: 1250 XP

Medium: 2500 XP

Hard: 3750 XP

Deadly: 5500 XP

A single CR 5 creature is worth 1800 XP (barely above an 'Easy' fight'). Unless totally out of resources (badly wounded, bad initaitve rolls, no superiority dice, rages, spell slots, action surges etc) a party of 5 5th level PC's would wreck a single CR 5 inside of a single round.

2 x CR5's is somewhere between Hard and Deadly.

As often as you can, throw multiple monsters at the PC's. DnD 5th is designed for it (bounded accuracy).

Some encounters for a 5th level party:

1 X Ettin, and 4 Bugbears (3,800 xp)
1 x Bearded devil and 2 x hellhounds (4,200 xp)
1 x Banshee, 1 x Ogre zombie, 8 x skeletons (3,750 xp)
1 x Half-Ogre riding 1 x Wyvern (3,750 xp)
1 x Shadow Demon, and 5 x Shadows (3,200 xp)
1 x Flameskull and 2 x Azer thralls (4,000 xp)

I tend to set my encoutners at around the 'Hard' level (I give a bonus feat for free to everyone at 1st level, so it evens out).

A single CR 8 creature is worth 3,900xp (just over a 'hard' encounter for 5 x 5th level PC's) On XP alone, it should prove a good encounter for 5 x 5th level PCs. However you need to be mindful of the fact that as it sits 3 CR above the average party level, it may possess abilities that outstrip the party.

For example a CR 8 Young green dragon is dealing 12d6 damage with its breath weapon (more than enough to TPK with one breath), and with 136 HP, and an AC of 18, its no easy challenge for a 5th level party to take down.)

[Ninja_Prawn]

Some common mistakes in this thread...

...and one easy solution: read the bleedin' DMG! The OP wants page 82.

Difficulty thresholds for 4no PCs at level 3:

Single monster:


Easy
Medium
Hard
Deadly


300
600
900
1,600



Two monsters (number is XP value per monster):


Easy
Medium
Hard
Deadly


100
200
300
533



Three monsters (number is XP value per monster):


Easy
Medium
Hard
Deadly


50
100
150
266



Four monsters (number is XP value per monster):


Easy
Medium
Hard
Deadly


37
75
112
200



And I agree with Malifice's general advice of 'try to use a roughly equal number of monsters to party members, so that the action economy is fair'. Therefore, four CR1/2 monsters should be something like a 'hard' challenge for your party. The basilisk you originally suggested is a 'medium' challenge on paper, but 1v4 gives the PCs a big advantage.

[McNinja]

As often as you can, throw multiple monsters at the PC's. DnD 5th is designed for it (bounded accuracy).

I've seen bounded accuracy mentioned so many times yet I still have no idea what it means.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I've seen bounded accuracy mentioned so many times yet I still have no idea what it means.

It's basically like postmodernism, but more metaphysical.

Bounded accuracy means that anyone can succeed at anything - a goblin can hit a fighter in full plate, an unathletic weakling can jump that ravine. It's a design philosophy that hinges on keeping bonuses and +1s to a minimum, and having DCs that don't scale (much) by PC level. So, an AC of 20 is good at level one, and it's still pretty good at level 20.

[McNinja]

It's basically like postmodernism, but more metaphysical.

Bounded accuracy means that anyone can succeed at anything - a goblin can hit a fighter in full plate, an unathletic weakling can jump that ravine. It's a design philosophy that hinges on keeping bonuses and +1s to a minimum, and having DCs that don't scale (much) by PC level. So, an AC of 20 is good at level one, and it's still pretty good at level 20.
Ah. Thank you for clearing that up for me.

[CommanderCronos]

This is all great advice guys thank you. I am just starting out as DM and want to make fun fights and quests, but don't want to go to easy or too hard right away. So this advice all really helps.

I was really just trying to figure out how to get the balance right. Like if i put 4 lvl 3 characters against a manticore will they destroy it due to the numbers advantage? will it be a good fight for them, or will it be too easy. I want to stick to the books when it comes to XP rewards for killing monsters and the stats they fight with, but i don't want to either make it too easy or hard for them.

So if i want a medium difficulty fight do i add up the medium difficulty level from Pg82 of the DMG Medium for lvl 3 party of four = (150+150+150+150) =600xp then find a monster that gives that or there abouts XP for defeating it? sorry if this all seems like i am not picking it up as quickly as i would like. i have always been a player before this and my old DM winged everything. His story telling was great but i sometimes felt his XP was almost random, sometimes too little for something that felt hard and other times too much for little things. I want to get the balance right and reward the players with levels correctly.

[gullveig]

Another common mistake is to think every encounter should be difficult and that an encounter is a monster fight.

As a DM, I usually put 5 easy, 3 medium, 1 hard and 1 optional deadly encounter per adventure day. This will give roughly the Adventure Day XP (DMG 84).

The easy encounters will burn the PC resources and keep them pushing the front line. If every encounter is deadly, they will get the "15-minute adventuring day" disease (long after every encounter). Remember to keep the dungeons alive and tell that to your players, they just finished the easier encounters, they can surprise fight the boss now and get advantage, or retreat to recover and let the boss notice the slaughter and be prepared for when the character come finish the job.

Another thing is that not all encounters are a fighting against a monster. First, instead of fighting the orc camp on the entrance of the dungeon, they can just find a way to distract them and sneak into the dungeon. If you want this kind of cleverness on your group, reward the PCs with the XP of the orcs. Second, some encounters are dangers, challenges or traps. You can reward XP for players finding a way to pass unharmed through pit trap, crossing the falling bridge over a lava river or solving the riddle in the entrance of the mage tower.

[Malifice]

This is all great advice guys thank you. I am just starting out as DM and want to make fun fights and quests, but don't want to go to easy or too hard right away. So this advice all really helps.

I was really just trying to figure out how to get the balance right. Like if i put 4 lvl 3 characters against a manticore will they destroy it due to the numbers advantage? will it be a good fight for them, or will it be too easy. I want to stick to the books when it comes to XP rewards for killing monsters and the stats they fight with, but i don't want to either make it too easy or hard for them.

So if i want a medium difficulty fight do i add up the medium difficulty level from Pg82 of the DMG Medium for lvl 3 party of four = (150+150+150+150) =600xp then find a monster that gives that or there abouts XP for defeating it? sorry if this all seems like i am not picking it up as quickly as i would like. i have always been a player before this and my old DM winged everything. His story telling was great but i sometimes felt his XP was almost random, sometimes too little for something that felt hard and other times too much for little things. I want to get the balance right and reward the players with levels correctly.

When planning your adventure first note the medium/ hard XP threshold for the party.

Then go through the monster manual and create a series of encounters to that budget. As a rule of thumb, don't include any monsters whose CR exceeds the paries average level by 1 or 2, and don't forget to multiply the monsters XP the more of them you add (see DMG).

You generally want to aim for around 4-5 mooks (low CR critters like skeletons and so forth) and a boss/ brute leading them (or a mated pair of monsters, or some other logical combination of monsters).

Solo monsters will generally get steamrolled by a rested and well put together party unless they are 3 or more CR above the PCs.

[SharkForce]

This is all great advice guys thank you. I am just starting out as DM and want to make fun fights and quests, but don't want to go to easy or too hard right away. So this advice all really helps.

I was really just trying to figure out how to get the balance right. Like if i put 4 lvl 3 characters against a manticore will they destroy it due to the numbers advantage? will it be a good fight for them, or will it be too easy. I want to stick to the books when it comes to XP rewards for killing monsters and the stats they fight with, but i don't want to either make it too easy or hard for them.

So if i want a medium difficulty fight do i add up the medium difficulty level from Pg82 of the DMG Medium for lvl 3 party of four = (150+150+150+150) =600xp then find a monster that gives that or there abouts XP for defeating it? sorry if this all seems like i am not picking it up as quickly as i would like. i have always been a player before this and my old DM winged everything. His story telling was great but i sometimes felt his XP was almost random, sometimes too little for something that felt hard and other times too much for little things. I want to get the balance right and reward the players with levels correctly.

the XP budget is per character, and yes, you add them together.

you also add monsters together, just remember that more than one monster has a multiplier (that is, 2 monsters worth 300 exp each have a higher budget than one monster worth 600 exp).

on a side note, your DM may have been using the official rules for giving out exp. for whatever reason, multiple monsters increases encounter difficulty, but officially does *not* increase the exp gained. so a fight against 50 CR 1/8 creatures (1250 exp) is almost assuredly tougher than a single CR 4 creature (1100 exp) by a very significant margin (5,000 exp budget assuming no other mitigating factors), and yet the book tells you to award only 1250 exp for that fight.

[McNinja]

the XP budget is per character, and yes, you add them together.

you also add monsters together, just remember that more than one monster has a multiplier (that is, 2 monsters worth 300 exp each have a higher budget than one monster worth 600 exp).

on a side note, your DM may have been using the official rules for giving out exp. for whatever reason, multiple monsters increases encounter difficulty, but officially does *not* increase the exp gained. so a fight against 50 CR 1/8 creatures (1250 exp) is almost assuredly tougher than a single CR 4 creature (1100 exp) by a very significant margin (5,000 exp budget assuming no other mitigating factors), and yet the book tells you to award only 1250 exp for that fight.
I put my 4 players against a manticore at level 3 and they wrecked it in 2 rounds. They do have a substantial about of magical gear already (oopsie doopsie) but still. An Umber Hulk was a challenge for them though.

[gullveig]

This may help you to build the encounters: http://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder

[CommanderCronos]

Huh, I see. So essentially work out what level of encounter i want, and then find monsters that all add up to that XP amount if beaten?

Wow that encounter builder is great. Is this accurate for 5th edition then?

Thanks so much again for all the help guys, this is really good stuff. lol keep it coming.

[Malifice]

I put my 4 players against a manticore at level 3 and they wrecked it in 2 rounds. They do have a substantial about of magical gear already (oopsie doopsie) but still. An Umber Hulk was a challenge for them though.

A single CR 3 manticore is just over a 'medium' challenge for 4 PCs of 3rd level. (700xp). I would expect it to die within 2 rounds, inflicting a minor drain on resources (a spell slot or two, some HP damage, a sup dice or channel etc).

4x3rd level PCs:

Easy: 300 XP

Medium: 600 XP

Hard: 900 XP

Deadly: 1600 XP

Also - this might help you a great deal:

http://tools.goblinist.com/5enc

[Ninja_Prawn]

A single CR 3 manticore is just over a 'medium' challenge for 4 PCs of 3rd level. (700xp). I would expect it to die within 2 rounds, inflicting a minor drain on resources (a spell slot or two, some HP damage, a sup dice or channel etc).

Yep. Medium challenge is a minor resource drain. A deadly challenge is one that might drop one PC - not a guaranteed TPK (because why would the book tell you how to build those?). Therefore, don't be afraid to use a lot of hard or deadly encounters. Equally, variety is the spice of life. Easy encounters can be fun too.

And yes, not every encounter is a combat. Remember to award XP for skill challenges and exploration successes. I give out XP whenever my PCs overcome an obstacle, regardless of what it is.

Edit: oh, and, I wanted to say something about online encounter builders. I haven't checked the one Malifice linked, but all the other ones I've ever seen have had serious bugs in their arithmetic. It's much better to learn to do it for yourself. Then you can do it on the fly at the table!

[coredump]

I think they did a poor job of naming the encounter levels.

They called them Easy, Medium, Hard, Deadly.

They should have been Trivial, Easy, Medium, Hard. If they wanted a Deadly it should have been 2 or 2.5 times the current level.

[Malifice]

I think they did a poor job of naming the encounter levels.

They called them Easy, Medium, Hard, Deadly.

They should have been Trivial, Easy, Medium, Hard. If they wanted a Deadly it should have been 2 or 2.5 times the current level.

Debateable.

Deadly still means 'deadly' (good chance of killing someone). If you bump a deady encounter for your last one of the day (when low on HP, spell slots etc) it can be a TPK.

Maybe add a 5th category called 'fantasy underground Vietnam' that should (unless something odd happens) lead to a TPK.

[JAL_1138]

"Deadly" to me should mean "this is much more likely than not to kill someone" rather than "this has a chance of maybe dropping one PC to 0HP."

[Malifice]

"Deadly" to me should mean "this is much more likely than not to kill someone" rather than "this has a chance of maybe dropping one PC to 0HP."

The number given for deadly is the start of deadly. So a deadly encounter ranges from pretty likely to kill a PC, to an utter certainty.

[jkat718]

This may help you to build the encounters: http://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder

The only issue, arithmetic-wise, that I've noticed with Kobold Fight Club is that it rounds the wrong way when the Adjusted Experience value is exactly on the threshold (RAW, it would be the lower of the two difficulty ratings, but KFC places it in the higher one).

[MaxWilson]

The only issue, arithmetic-wise, that I've noticed with Kobold Fight Club is that it rounds the wrong way when the Adjusted Experience value is exactly on the threshold (RAW, it would be the lower of the two difficulty ratings, but KFC places it in the higher one).

Debatable. The Basic Rules say, "The closest threshold that is lower than the adjusted XP value of the monsters determines the encounter’s difficulty." Taken literally, this means that if the Deadly threshold is 700 XP and the encounter is worth exactly 700 XP, that it can't be Deadly because 700 is not strictly lower than 700, so the encounter must be Hard. But that's not what the word "threshold" implies. I think it is just bad writing on the part of the Basic writers, and they mean "closest threshold that is lower than or equal to."

Under this interpretation, kobold.com is doing it exactly right.

[jkat718]

@MaxWilson: No, that's exactly what I meant by ringing issues. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[coredump]

The number given for deadly is the start of deadly. So a deadly encounter ranges from pretty likely to kill a PC, to an utter certainty.

No it doesn't, and that is the point. It starts with "could be lethal for one or more PCs". Driving my car to work 'could be lethal' I don't consider that 'deadly'.

If you created another category that was higher, *then* you would have a Deadly encounter that was 'pretty likely' to kill a PC.

[DivisibleByZero]

I've seen bounded accuracy mentioned so many times yet I still have no idea what it means.

The description given was decent, but here's the article on Bounded Accuracy (http://archive.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20120604) if you wanted to read it.

[Malifice]

No it doesn't, and that is the point. It starts with "could be lethal for one or more PCs". Driving my car to work 'could be lethal' I don't consider that 'deadly'.

If you created another category that was higher, *then* you would have a Deadly encounter that was 'pretty likely' to kill a PC.

I dont agree mate. Deadly for 5 x 5th level PCs starts at 5,500. Two CR 5 creatures together dont even trip that figure (5,400xp for 2 x CR5s) The following encounters will almost certainly end in a PC death and possibly a TPK if the party are wounded or depleted in resources (i.e. the encounter is tripped later in the adventuring day at encounter number 6 or 7):

2 x CR 5 Bulettes (94hp, AC 17, 40' speed, bite +7, 4d12+4 ea), 2 x Elementals (any type). 2 x Wraiths etc

You can reasonably expect a PC death in those encounters. A TPK is likely if the party have already dealt with 5-6 normal encounters that AD.

A sinlge CR 10 comes out at 5,900xp (however caveat that the CR is 5 higher than the party level so not recommended).

1 x CR 10 young red dragon would TPK a 5th level party every time.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I think part of the confusion regarding the word "deadly" is that when a PC drops to 0 hit points, 9 times out of 10 they survive. Deadly encounters are supposed to drop PCs to 0... which is not the same as killing them.

Also, driving your car to work absolutely is deadly. You should really think about switching to trains...

[MinotaurWarrior]

There's an interesting thread on this topic (deadliness of "deadly" encounters) on enworld. Consensus is that deadly encounters don't pose a serious threat.

I've found that even "easy" encounters have a chance of bringing the squishiest PCs to 0 if you focus fire and use good tactics overall, but the PCs will recognize that, as a party, they were never in very serious danger. "Deadly" encounters are good at freaking out PCs, but the death rules make permadeath entirely within the DM's control - the only way PCs really die is if monsters dedicate weapon attacks to fallen bodies - which is a tactic you can plausibly avoid.

[DivisibleByZero]

- the only way PCs really die is if monsters dedicate weapon attacks to fallen bodies -

Tell that to the player at my table who died because what was almost a TPK happened, and he was the last to get assistance, and by the time they got to him he had been down for 6 rounds. We roll all death saves not round by round, but all at once when help arrives. He needed to roll 5 straight death saves as a race to 3, and when help arrived they found his cold, dead corpse waiting for them.

Tell that to the player at my table who decided to wade into melee with a wight while he was poisoned. He died by having his total maximum HP reduced to zero via failing every single save every single time he got hit.
Instant death. No death saves. Instant death.

There are plenty of ways to die in 5e. That's one of the things I love about this edition. Adventuring is dangerous, and not everyone is going to make it home. This hasn't really been true since 2e. It is true once more. Not to the extent that it once was, but at least it's dangerous again. And I love that.

[gullveig]

I never saw this issue of things not being hard enough that wasn't the DM's fault. Specially in this edition full of RAI.

Examples: bosses without servants, the "kraken" out of water, fighting without tactics, etc...

[Malifice]

I never saw this issue of things not being hard enough that wasn't the DM's fault. Specially in this edition full of RAI.

Examples: bosses without servants, the "kraken" out of water, fighting without tactics, etc...

A lot of the problem comes down to DM's adopting the 3.5 method of encoutner building (a single monster of CR = party level). Such an encounter is rarely a challenge.

CR is really just an indicator of the level range a PC would be expected to encounter such a beast. Generally 2 such CR=level creatures (for a 5 person party) comes out on par in the XP budget.